All about Covid-19 Discussion in Singapore (compiled)

[lonelyglobe]

26 minutes ago, Guest ranking said:

 

 

If Singapore will overtake China in 2 weeks, then the world can be very aware for the Mainland Chinese Total case numbers to be realistic and truthful. 

 

🤧🤣🤡

I don't think we will reach that stage but anything between 30k to 60k should not be too surprise but even then,  the world know china cannot be trusted  after this painful lesson. 

[LeanMature]

1 hour ago, lonelyglobe said:

I don't think we will reach that stage but anything between 30k to 60k should not be too surprise but even then,  the world know china cannot be trusted  after this painful lesson. 

 

Hitting 80k is not surprising, given the aggressive testing done by Singapore.  There are more than 300k migrant workers staying in close proximity. I suspect one third of the workforce will be infected.

[Guest MAGAKAG]

1 hour ago, Since u r here said:

I find her ok although many put the blame on her 

 

Errrr...

[mith]

12 hours ago, Kimochi said:

Covidiots on the prowl again! ~

 

 

 

this ugly fat blubbery idiot again????

he was tracked down by the police and arrested already, right? 

[leo yok loo]

8 hours ago, Guest scary said:

SINGAPORE - A large facility is being set up at Tanjong Pagar Terminal to potentially house Covid-19 patients and foreign workers, as the number of coronavirus cases in Singapore continues to increase.

The Straits Times understands that when completed, the mega temporary structure could accommodate up to 15,000 people. ST has contacted the authorities for more information.

 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/coronavirus-mega-covid-19-facility-being-built-at-tanjong-pagar-terminal-to-house

 

 

Is that a copy of the temporary Wuhan hospital?

One structure not enough lah..must built 15 minimum.

[mith]

18 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

If a Singaporean who breached his SHN can be jailed for 6 weeks, I want to see what is the sentence to be meted out to the American who breached his SHN to go CHINATOWN POINT to do shopping. 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/man-who-breached-stay-home-notice-to-eat-bak-kut-teh-sentenced-to-6-weeks

 

Singaporean who breached coronavirus stay-home notice to eat bak kut teh sentenced to 6 weeks' jail

 

exactly! i'm on this too! btw, the bak kut teh guy deserved it! 

[Guest Guest]

China should avoid Singapore’s situation as schools go back, top expert says

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3081126/coronavirus-china-should-avoid-singapores-situation-schools-go

 

Why they say us liddat? Didn’t we Paul enough their Lampard?

[leo yok loo]

58 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

China should avoid Singapore’s situation as schools go back, top expert says

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3081126/coronavirus-china-should-avoid-singapores-situation-schools-go

 

Why they say us liddat? Didn’t we Paul enough their Lampard?

拍马屁,被马踢。

Now we wait and see what he got to say.

All very quiet now.

Except one lady become very defensive plus aggressive on BBC.

[lonelyglobe]

Now the whole world can use the SG "golden standard" to avoid mistakes and yes,  we should congrats ah teo,  ah wong and ah gan for putting SG on the spot light gain,  well done and keep up the good work. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by lonelyglobe

[Guest Guest]

28 minutes ago, leo yok loo said:

拍马屁,被马踢。

Now we wait and see what he got to say.

All very quiet now.

Except one lady become very defensive plus aggressive on BBC.

 

Didn’t her ministry threaten big big on 158 to revoke work pass of employers who send their workers to get tested? So glad this came back and bite her scrawny ass.

[StockBottom]

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

And I am not surprised to see overwhelming praises of her in her Facebook.  In China, volunteers who are hired to do that are called “50 cents”.

 

“Josephine Teo always queue on top of the list in giving Singapore people assistance and help. She has been hiding behind the scene, helping to establish better goodwill and upgrading friendship with the rest of the world, in the past 2 years b4 covid-19. She is a very committed person. She also has been working 24/7 for weeks and months to cater the future needs of our children and grandchildren. Tks for all those hard work. What a wonderful person”

...

...

 

Many of these are probably grassroots people, working under her, so they want her to "know" them

Edited April 24, 2020 by StockBottom

[Guest Guest]

Singapore’s Critical Missteps

 

Singapore’s response to the coronavirus started very similar to Taiwan’s. Their timeline of decisions is equally flabbergasting. It did many of the same things that Taiwan or South Korea did. But it didn’t work. Why? The differences are what’s telling.

 

 

 

Three things stand out in Singapore compared to Taiwan or South Korea: travel bans, contact tracing, and masks.

First, travel bans. As you can see, Singapore was pretty quick to ban visitors from Hubei, when there were 6,000 cases there, by January 29th. They then banned all visitors from China three days later, on February 1st, when there were 12,000 cases there.

But then it didn’t act fast enough after that. It didn’t ban travelers from Italy, France, Spain and Germany until March 16th. At that time, these countries together had over 50,000 reported cases, probably many more. All short-term visitors were banned a week later, on March 23rd. By then, the world had 150,000 cases outside of the countries already banned.

This delay in action caused a severe seeding of new cases. At the end of March, a full 80% of cases in Singapore were coming from abroad. Within a week, the number of imported cases fell to zero, but it was too late. These cases were enough to seed the local transmission that exploded over the following weeks. If they had closed their borders around March 10th, it is likely that this outbreak wouldn’t have happened — or wouldn’t have been as bad.

 

 

In Part 4 of this article, in a few days, we will go into the detail of how to decide what travel restrictions to use.

The second big difference with countries like South Korea is contact tracing. The Singapore operation was not actually world class. Until the end of March, their teams could only trace around ~600 contacts. That’s because their process was extremely manual. Tracers had to rely on interviews or CCTV cameras to do their research. No mobile phone data, no credit card data, no connection between the healthcare and travel data as far as we could find. It is unclear whether the investigators force is much stronger or weaker than Taiwan’s, or if their tools are much better or worse. But Taiwan never got overwhelmed by the massive arrival of foreign cases.

At the end of March, the country released TraceTogether, a mobile application that people can download and, through bluetooth and encryption, anonymously keeps tabs on all the people you’ve encountered, so that you can get a notification if one of them tests positive.

 

 

The idea is great, but it only has 20% penetration (1 million users vs. 5.6 million citizens). The problem is that this is not enough. For a contact to be registered, both people must have the app working. If one random person has a likelihood of 20% to have it, two random people will have 20%*20%=4% likelihood of having it. Put another way, only 4% of contacts will be registered through the app.

 

In fact it would be slightly higher than 4%, because app usage is likely to work in clusters. For example, if one uses it in a family, it’s more likely that the rest of the family uses it too. But even if we assume a 25% higher tracking thanks to clusters, we’re still at an overall 5% of contacts traced.

 

And that assumes that the 20% refers to the app functioning properly. If 20% refers to just downloads — as is customary when developers want to tout the success of their application — many of the people who downloaded the app won’t open it, many of those who open it won’t set it up, and many of those won’t have bluetooth on all the time.

 

In this graph I’m assuming a 30% penetration, which is 50% higher than what Singapore has communicated. More notes inside the chart.

 

It’s still early: Singapore released the app four weeks ago. Hopefully, its penetration will go up in the coming weeks. But the country is arguably among the best in the world to convince its population to use the app: The mobile penetration is huge, the country is small, and the citizenry trusts the government. If Singapore can’t do more than 20%, who can? They themselves say that this can’t replace manual contact tracing at this time.

To be clear, this does not mean that the technology is bad. On the contrary, bluetooth in smartphones has amazing promise to solve the problem of contact tracing. The problem is penetration. It is awfully hard to get lots of people to use an app. South Korea doesn’t require it, and they’re able to track contracts much more easily. We will cover in depth all these issues in Part 3 of this article, coming in a day or two. Subscribe to the newsletter to get it.

Third and finally, masks. Until April 3rd, Singapore only recommended masks for the sick. As we saw before, that contrasts with both Taiwan (with masks managed centrally) and South Korea (with 98% of people wearing masks at least sometimes and 64% all the time outside).

This matters because, as we can see in Part 2 , masks are fundamental to stop the virus.

The importance of these three factors together — travel restrictions, contact tracing and masks — is illustrated by this chart:

 

 

This is the graphical representation of all cases in Singapore as they know them.

Red dots are active cases and green dots are cured. You can see an overwhelming amount of red cases. They highlight the recency of the outbreak.

If you try some cases, you might see this:

 

 

This is a case that has been properly investigated. Unfortunately, most cases now look like this:

 

 

This illustrates the burden of contact tracing that investigators can’t handle. This case hasn’t been thoroughly investigated. Most cases are like this.

Red clusters have formed around specific areas: dormitories. I looked all the clusters up to see which ones are dormitories:

 

 

 

The answer: most of them.

These are mostly inhabited by migrant workers. As we noted before, Singapore took a long time to enact travel bans, and by the end of March over 80% of cases were imported.

But then these imported cases started spreading because there was no limit to the sizes of social gatherings, and no masks.

Even after the limit to the size of social gatherings above 10 was approved, this is what one of the dormitories looked like:

 

 

Lots of people, not all with masks.

 

It seems like Singapore’s missteps include late travel bans, late limits on social gatherings, late universal mask requirement, and overwhelmed manual contact tracing system. This is starting to inform the core measures that every country needs to have to fight the coronavirus.

 

Here is the list of measures every country should consider. There are four types:

- Very cheap measures that might be enough to stop the epidemic

- Somewhat expensive measures that might still be necessary

- Expensive measures that aren’t necessary

- Healthcare measures

 

It’s time we dive deep into them.

 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-learning-how-to-dance-b8420170203e

 

[leo yok loo]

1 hour ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Didn’t her ministry threaten big big on 158 to revoke work pass of employers who send their workers to get tested? So glad this came back and bite her scrawny ass.

But i thought it is good that the employers send their workers for testing????

Something is fishy...

[leo yok loo]

I thought that day our leaders said: "oh...all of you (fw) have done so much to build spore, citizens or not , you are part of us. We will do whatever we can to save you...blah blah blah..."

I understand now...talk one thing , dont other thing.. double standard.

Talk is cheap.

[jlone]

7 hours ago, Since u r here said:

Dont ever!

 

 

 

Full of smiles- shd b taken earlier , now Lee has no more smiles

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find her ok although many put the blame on her 

 

The video by Dr Chee Soon Juan should reach out to more people especially the chinese educated.

Thanks. He speaks truthfully

[Kimochi]

Join the entire nation in singing Home to thank healthcare, migrant workers - https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.com/trending/sing-together-singapore-home-12670262

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Kimochi

[lonelyglobe]

I will join if they sing "sorry seems to be the hardest word" lead by ah teo,  ah wong and ah gan. 

[Guest MAGAKAG]

1 hour ago, Kimochi said:

Join the entire nation in singing Home to thank healthcare, migrant workers - https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.com/trending/sing-together-singapore-home-12670262

 

 

 

Covid 19 Superheroes V2.0

When you sing, the amount of micro droplets that comes out of your mouth will actually stay in the air for quite a while, potentially increasing the risk of virus spread. I wonder who's genius idea is this, someone should just send them a link of this Japanese research.

https://youtu.be/H2azcn7MqOU?t=53

[Kimochi]

2 minutes ago, Since u r here said:

He s trying to tell u dont do things that r not value adding lah

Its better than nothing. It boosts and encourages and will help. 

 

Would you rather have someone to cheer you or nobody? 

 

Also you are highly welcome to join their forces to contribute as well to feel their hard work you know ~

[practease]

 

10 minutes ago, Since u r here said:

 

 

 

Very well said...

Edited April 24, 2020 by practease
Posted irrelevant images...

[lonelyglobe]

11 minutes ago, Guest MAGAKAG said:

Covid 19 Superheroes V2.0

When you sing, the amount of micro droplets that comes out of your mouth will actually stay in the air for quite a while, potentially increasing the risk of virus spread. I wonder who's genius idea is this, someone should just send them a link of this Japanese research.

https://youtu.be/H2azcn7MqOU?t=53

I think is everyone sing from your home and they will do cut and paste, now CB no gathering allow. 

[Guest MAGAKAG]

4 minutes ago, lonelyglobe said:

I think is everyone sing from your home and they will do cut and paste, now CB no gathering allow. 

On Saturday (Apr 25) at precisely 7.55pm, local celebrities will be singing the ever-popular NDP favourite, Home. 

 

The song's composer Dick Lee, along with Rahimah Rahim, Shabir, Taufik Batisah as well as Mediacorp artistes Desmond Tan, Felicia Chin, Rebecca Lim and Vernetta Lopez will be taking part in the event. 

They will be backed by the 900 members of the Voices Of Singapore choir.

Those at home are encouraged to take to your balconies and windows to sing the song as well, wave a torchlight and even record yourselves.  Good luck to those making food delivery.

 

[practease]

1 minute ago, Since u r here said:

Not many thk like u woh

Hmm...all I can say is, "One kind of grain, feed hundreds of different kinds of people."

[Guest lil' things]

4 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

You are right. And that happened as early as Feb some more. Looking back, I wonder if those workers had been tested earlier in Feb, will the dormitories clusters have grown so exponentially in April? So who is now acting irresponsibly now? MOM, the hospitals, or the employers? Someone needs to be held accountable.

 

Singapore gov't butt of jokes after prison escape

SINGAPORE (AFP) — Terrorism is usually no laughing matter, especially not in security-conscious Singapore, but the escape from custody of a limping Islamist extremist suspect has led to scorn on the Internet.

Barbed jokes and irreverent spoofs have sprouted up on websites

 

"Singapore has now dropped the ball big time and really is an international laughing stock."

 

Talkingcock.com, a popular satirical site, said K's escape underlined the need to give cabinet ministers another salary hike even though they were already among the highest-paid in the world. "We need to equip our Mini-stars with everything they can to deal with this crisis... and as we know in Singapore, public service and legislative influence are all not sufficient incentives," it said. "Only the highest salaries in the world will do," the humour site said.

 

A popular Singaporean blogger who has previously irked the government with attacks on high living costs said the city-state need not worry about losing cabinet ministers.

"They won't be asked to resign or even take a pay cut," wrote the blogger known as Mr. Brown.

"We are not like those free-wheeling and chaotic governments from Western democracies that make their leaders accountable for every little thing."

 

[Guest cooking pots]

 

22 minutes ago, Guest MAGAKAG said:

On Saturday (Apr 25) at precisely 7.55pm, local celebrities will be singing the ever-popular NDP favourite, Home. 

 

Those at home are encouraged to take to your balconies and windows to sing the song as well, wave a torchlight and even record yourselves.  

 

 

Others might take some cooking pots.....😂

 

https://youtu.be/c7AR_g17e1w

 

 

https://youtu.be/c7AR_g17e1w?t=12

 

[leo yok loo]

1 hour ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Thank the migrants for shooting up our numbers to be #1 in SEA ??? 

No...we must thank the lady minister. Not easy to be no.1  in such a short time. National Day coming right, give her a medal plus salary up 20%.

[fab]

40 minutes ago, Guest MAGAKAG said:

On Saturday (Apr 25) at precisely 7.55pm, local celebrities will be singing the ever-popular NDP favourite, Home. 

 

The song's composer Dick Lee, along with Rahimah Rahim, Shabir, Taufik Batisah as well as Mediacorp artistes Desmond Tan, Felicia Chin, Rebecca Lim and Vernetta Lopez will be taking part in the event. 

They will be backed by the 900 members of the Voices Of Singapore choir.

Those at home are encouraged to take to your balconies and windows to sing the song as well, wave a torchlight and even record yourselves.  Good luck to those making food delivery.

 

 

Y be a noisy copycat? 

 

I m enjoying this solitude v well.

[single42]

breaking news!!!! total 12075 confirmed cases!!! new 897 cases confirmed!! 13 deaths!!!

 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-singapore-crosses-12000-mark-with-897-more-cases-071457528.html

[jlone]

20 minutes ago, single42 said:

breaking news!!!! total 12075 confirmed cases!!! new 897 cases confirmed!! 13 deaths!!!

 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-singapore-crosses-12000-mark-with-897-more-cases-071457528.html

Not breaking news anymore because everyday there will be more or less cases only. We will not know when is it going to slow down?

Still a long way to go. Just hope for miracles to happen.

Breaking news only if there is 0 case!

Edited April 24, 2020 by jlone

[Guest Guest]

Were there quarantine plans for the dormitories?

 

Quote

Specifically, Mr Tan (Chuan-Jin) was talking about licensing conditions that the Commissioner appointed under the FEDA could impose on licensed dormitories. As an example, Mr Tan said, “operators must develop quarantine plans, in the event of an infectious disease outbreak, and provide sufficient sick bay facilities, based on guidelines set by the Ministry of Health.”

 

Since 2015, Singapore has had three manpower ministers: Tan Chuan-Jin (2012-2015), Lim Swee Say (2015-2018) and Josephine Teo (2018-incumbent). So the question is why have none of these ministers, in their time, addressed this particular issue of having a quarantine plan in place at migrant worker dormitories?

 

https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2020/04/24/what-happened-to-the-enforcement-of-the-foreign-employee-dormitories-act-wasnt-the-dorms-supposed-to-have-quarantine-plans/

[Guest break]

21 minutes ago, jlone said:

Not breaking news anymore because everyday there will be more or less cases only. We will not know when is it going to slow down?

Still a long way to go. Just hope for miracles to happen.

Breaking news only if there is 0 case!

 sure it is breaking news, it is breaking hearts.... 

[Kimochi]

49 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Who are you singing for? Singing for people because they kena COVID19? Then you can go sing for Americans, Italians, Spaniards, Germans or maybe even the PRCs if you want to. No need to go sing for these foreign workers at all. 

So you mean you are looking down on them just because they are foreign workers? 

 

Patient zero does not start from them. Its Singaporeans who did not obey the quarantine notice and went about. 

 

You are no difference than that auntie who curse people whole family die and spit onto the KFC crew. 

[leo yok loo]

43 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

Were there quarantine plans for the dormitories?

 

 

https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2020/04/24/what-happened-to-the-enforcement-of-the-foreign-employee-dormitories-act-wasnt-the-dorms-supposed-to-have-quarantine-plans/

Let me make a guess:

2011 GE results was not so good so Tan came out with the rules (for wayang purposes). 

But 2015 GE, they win big. So all these fancy rules can forget about it. Who want to spend energy for FW( modern slaves). So life goes on ...天下太平。

Until covid19 came and all hell break loose.

Again dont scold me, i just guessing.

[Guest Guest]

1 hour ago, single42 said:

breaking news!!!! total 12075 confirmed cases!!! new 897 cases confirmed!! 13 deaths!!!

 

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-singapore-crosses-12000-mark-with-897-more-cases-071457528.html

 

 think still 12 deaths for now.. 

We already beat South Korea's numbers yesterday... we must try to leave at least a day's gap before we beat Japan's number mah .... 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop	Deaths/ 1M pop	Total Tests	Tests/ 1M pop
World	2,746,954	+23,910	191,899	+980	757,349	1,797,706	58,709	352	24.6
Japan	12,368		328		1,494	10,546	259	98	3	135,983	1,075
Singapore	12,075	+897	12		924	11,139	26	2,064	2	94,796	16,203

 

[leo yok loo]

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

 

 

It could also be due to internal politicking.  Ah Tan competing with Ah Chan but later Ah Chan got the upper hand.  So Ah Tan's idea got shelved.  Don't scold me.  I am just speculating.  LOL.

What u say make sense also..

Covid19 is a test...these self proclaim leaders fail badly.

[Mushigg]

New cluster - Massage parlour at East Coast https://mothership.sg/2020/04/natureland-9-new-cluster-covid-19/

[Kimochi]

Some numbers and channels. 

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid19-manpower-ministry-advisory-mental-health-12673892

 

 

Attention: Stupid high horse ~ 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Kimochi
So he can click and open it to save himself

[Guest Guest]

618 new Covid-19 cases in S'pore on April 25, taking total to 12,693

 

https://mothership.sg/2020/04/covid-19-april-25-update/

[Life9157]

Today evening we all hang Singapore  flag to sow appreciation for front line essential n healthcare staff

[leo yok loo]

56 minutes ago, Since u r here said:

 

7 locals - community spread nia mah, why make us suffer ?

first time, we hit single digit after the CB commenced!!!!!!!!!! today some will waste time singing loudly in the session as celebration

Yah...singing, clapping, hanging flags...i thought only country like north korea will do this kind of thing.

Oh sorry sorry, i have forgotten that spore n North Korea are good frenz..

Sigh....useless.

[lonelyglobe]

expected,  not even interested to listen, probably the same person who wrote the script and just different person take turn to present......maybe tonight 7.55 everyone should sing "sorry seems to be the hardest word" instead 

[jlone]

1 hour ago, Nightingale said:

There is nothing new.  No apology.  No admittance of wrong.  Here is the translation of Josephine Teo's speech between 11^th  to 17^th minute:

Because in their minds, they think that they are doing a lot n come out lots of resources to help the workers already. So  why should they say sorry?

They are just a bunch of arrogance who never say sorry type!

[Mssg-exchange]

https://goodyfeed.com/couple-lie-moh/?utm_source=end-cards&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=EndCardsWeb

[Kimochi]

$2000  KFC ~ 

Song song 

 

 

Woman filmed shouting, spitting at KFC employee in NEX outlet arrested

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/kfc-customer-video-spit-employee-nex-woman-arrested-12676688

Edited April 25, 2020 by Kimochi

[Guest Guest]

22 minutes ago, Kimochi said:

$2000  KFC ~ 

Song song 

Woman filmed shouting, spitting at KFC employee in NEX outlet arrested

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/kfc-customer-video-spit-employee-nex-woman-arrested-12676688

 

She looks 50+, and she should be jailed.

[jlone]

6 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

 

She looks 50+, and she should be jailed.

I think 2000/- or jail term is nothing to this type of woman

[Kimochi]

35 minutes ago, Since u r here said:

@Kimochi did u belt your fav song and went emotional?

 

Yeah! ~ recorded and posted too! 

[Kimochi]

3 minutes ago, Since u r here said:

Why didnt post here???! 

i didnt.... was in zoom mtg

Recorded sound file ~

[Kimochi]

Just now, Since u r here said:

And share to your next gen?! That u been thru a lifetime pandemic?? 

u sing w your parents??

 

 

 

honestly it does look like prisoners not able to get out , crying for help

 

 

 

we were all at a multicomplex mall shopping groceries, u shd look at the crowd at the supermkt(although many stores are closed in that mall).
none wanna sing while i rushed back home to avoid the crowd any longer...

 

 

Its once in a lifetime matter you know. Might not have it. And hope we not making another one of these activities. 

[Guest Guest]

11 minutes ago, wilfgene said:

There is still Wu Chang, Han Yang, Han Kou and Ying Wu Zhou virus to look forward to. 

 

I was thinking the same thing. There are only 7 types of human coronaviruses found in recent history: https://www.healthline.com/health/coronavirus-types#types

 

non-severe 229E in maybe ?1930s? 

non-severe OC43 in maybe ?1960s?

SARS-CoV in November 2002.

non-severe NL63 in 2004 https://theconversation.com/coronaviruses-a-brief-history-135506

non-severe HKU1 in 2006 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489438/

MERS-CoV in September 2012

SARS-CoV-2 in late December 2019

 

Look at the timeline it is taking nature to come up with a severe successive coronavirus in recent time ... And in between SARS, MERS and COVID-19, we had non-coronavirus cases like H1N1 in 2009 and Ebola in 2014. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-deadly-is-the-coronavirus-compared-to-past-outbreaks#2009-(H1N1)-flu-pandemic  So yeah. the alarm bells are ringing already. It's just whether we want to listen to the bells or ignore them.