amuse.ed Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) A major milestone for individuals who are diagnosed with mental illness health disorders and have challenges declaring. https://www.tal.sg/tafep/employment-practices/recruitment/job-application-forms How to ensure job application forms enable you to assess candidates fairly What Is a Fair Job Application Form? Fair job application forms collect information only directly related to the qualifications, skills, knowledge, and experience required for the job. Why It Matters? Having a fair job application forms allows you to: Compare job applicants fairly based on qualifications, skills, knowledge and experience. Significantly increase the likelihood that you will get the best person for the job. Note:Applicants can report unfair, discriminatory job application forms to TAFEP. What You Must Do to Be Fair The following Tripartite Guidelines on Fair Employment Practices (job application forms) state what you must do as an employer: Review your job application form to ensure that each field is relevant to the job (e.g. skills, qualification and experience). Companies should not ask job applicants to declare personal information such as their mental health condition unless there is a job related requirement. You may refer to TAFEP's sample job application form (Word document) for more guidance. Remove fields on age, gender, race, religion, marital status and family responsibilities, or disability. All declarations on mental health condition should also be removed from the job application forms. If you require information that may be viewed as discriminatory, you should state your reasons clearly why you are collecting the information. Remove fields on photographs or national service liability. If you require these for specific purposes, you should request for these at the point of job offer or state your reasons clearly. Allow for other forms of identification (e.g. passport number), as NRIC numbers can reveal the age of a person. Edited January 18, 2020 by amuse.ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 I stopped believing in any of the government's wayang show for a long time now. There are more reasons for me to remain skeptical about what they say nowadays, than the reasons to believe in them wholeheartedly. The failed Minister, Mah Bow Tan, is just the tip of the iceberg, and he served as a good show ato what years of complacence has done to all of us. The internal structural decay has run much deeper than what we can see for ourselves from the outside, and the resulting damage to us all is nothing short of substantial.We could have gotten so much better, but we didn't. Int he end, we let so many of our competing countries overtook all of us. To make matters worse, we started forming "alliances" with so many of the competing nations. inviting them to turn into our own parasites, feeding off us at our own detriments. The first leadership has brought us far forward, and the current leadership has brought us far backward. I doubt if we can ever get back to where we were in the past anymore. Now that I am done with my early Saturday morning rant, my opinion of this guideline is: I'd just say that they should be focusing on bigger things that they should be worrying about, such as the unfair competition that companies are doing to hire foreigners. Changing the format of a form and claiming that this is a step forward is making a mockery of a "fair practice claim", especially when there is a provision saying that "if you require information that may be viewed as discriminatory, you should state your reasons clearly why you are collecting the information." What's the point of another wayang show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 47 minutes ago, Since u r here said: this is not newly implement already in the TaFep scene but what are your main concerns ? Tafep encouraged all these few years ago but they can ONLY encourage Nevertheless, most co. s are still asking some of these questions on the form ~ from reality check look at the MNCs and ...https://www.natsteel.com.sg/downloads/NatSteel_Job_Application_Form.pdf https://www.brc.com.sg/resources/ck/files/pdf/form/job-application.pdf take a good Look @ our own World class National carrier as an example https://www.singaporeair.com/pdf/cabincrew/WalkInApplnFormMay14.pdf?affiliate_id=11001&affc=23506a8a-1e99-4992-b62f-32a5f7d80323 the NRIC is linked to the pDPA thingy too, so it should also not be asked for (incld a photocopy at the initial stage of application too) Even people with disability or mental illness are in it, still when it comes to the intvw, intvwer will still access your abilities and feasibilities eg a clerk may need to help in answering queries at the front and do typing ... Allow for other forms of identification (e.g. passport number), as NRIC numbers can reveal the age of a person. If you require an applicant's NRIC number for specific purposes, you should request for it at the point of job offer, or state your reasons clearly. For example, for the post of a Clerical Assistant: You can ask You should not ask for Whether the applicant has the required skills (e.g. IT and literacy skills). Whether the applicant has experience in a similar job. Age (e.g. NRIC, date of birth) Gender Race Religion Marital status and family responsibilities (e.g. whether pregnant or have children) Disability Photograph(s) National Service liability Mental health condition I have only heard of mental health / illness exclusion yesterday via a fb posting and was awesomely surprised. So it was implemented long time ago? And why aren't other employers following the guidelines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fatty Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Cannot be too harsh on employers otherwise they will move out of Singapore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xavier98 Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Cannot ask D.OB, Age, IC no... How about submitting your educational cert. isnt the date of graduation or our IC no. indicated on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 oh sounded like its not major milestone afterall. Nope i am not hiring manager nor from HR but just thought that it's a good for knowledge other than the usual discussions. Imho no one will ever declare anyway so the questions are pretty redundant. And if special needs often it will be companies who will reach out to the niche and least vice versa. I guess this will only benefit for people who had mental illness yet functional. Thanks for the input thus far, i learnt much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) . Edited March 14, 2020 by IpMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 I just wonder why some people here must always bring the foreigner into any discussion? Is the thread any issue that concerns foreigners from onset? The thread is talking about job application forms and fairness during job applications. Anyway other Singaporeans should have called out against the Government for using the year of birth as the starting numbers for the NRIC many years back. I never understood why it allowed this practice to start. Some years back when you entered a building and needed to receive a card or access, even the security officer was able to see your age. The other thing I find objective for a multiracial society is for the ID to state the "race". Why was this practice never discontinued? Why are NRIC still reflecting race? For what purpose? But I fail to see, why it is the fault of foreigners again for interview and hiring practices??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 6 hours ago, amuse.ed said: I have only heard of mental health / illness exclusion yesterday via a fb posting and was awesomely surprised. So it was implemented long time ago? And why aren't other employers following the guidelines? So now you know why we all say everything they do is just a wayang show? 11 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: I just wonder why some people here must always bring the foreigner into any discussion? Is the thread any issue that concerns foreigners from onset? The thread is talking about job application forms and fairness during job applications. Anyway other Singaporeans should have called out against the Government for using the year of birth as the starting numbers for the NRIC many years back. I never understood why it allowed this practice to start. Some years back when you entered a building and needed to receive a card or access, even the security officer was able to see your age. The other thing I find objective for a multiracial society is for the ID to state the "race". Why was this practice never discontinued? Why are NRIC still reflecting race? For what purpose? But I fail to see, why it is the fault of foreigners again for interview and hiring practices??? Because NS for locals and jobs for foreigners here in Singapore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonelyglobe Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 6 hours ago, amuse.ed said: I have only heard of mental health / illness exclusion yesterday via a fb posting and was awesomely surprised. So it was implemented long time ago? And why aren't other employers following the guidelines? Govt sector probably have to show support but all other employers they don't have to and the best part is when they reject application, they don't have to provide any real reasons, not convinced? Try to state that in your application or say you have gone to jail before and see what will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, lonelyglobe said: Govt sector probably have to show support but all other employers they don't have to and the best part is when they reject application, they don't have to provide any real reasons, not convinced? Try to state that in your application or say you have gone to jail before and see what will happen. Sorry hor .... government sector will ESPECIALLY ask for all your private details one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Guest Guest said: So now you know why we all say everything they do is just a wayang show? Because NS for locals and jobs for foreigners here in Singapore? and what does it have to do with interview practices? You still did not respond to it or made any valid point. the Minister came out with the numbers just recently and from the new jobs 80% went to locals. CNA: Of 60,000 new jobs created from 2015 to 2018, about 80% went to Singaporeans: Chan Chun Sing SINGAPORE: Of the nearly 60,000 new jobs created for the local workforce between 2015 and 2018, about 50,000 went to Singaporeans and more than 9,000 went to permanent residents (PRs), Minister for Trade and Industry Chan Chun Sing revealed on Thursday (Jan 16). Silly to always continue repeating to post untruths about job creation and locals losing out to foreigners. In most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs. And I don't even make a comment about performance... Talk to local employers and you will learn a lot... The Government is pushing you and sponsoring you to upgrade your skills if you doing one of the lesser demanded jobs. If you don't get the hint, then please don't complain later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 That reminded me of an article I read. https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2020/01/16/41-excuses-companies-can-possibly-use-to-reject-job-applicants-at-interviews/ "........ Interview Expert Academy: 41 reasons why candidates fail at interviews So, if companies are bent on hiring their favorite foreign job applicants, they can still fool MOM by inviting some of the local job applicants for interviews. But what excuses can these companies come up with in case MOM asks them for the reasons for rejecting the local candidates? Interview Expert Academy, which helps people to overcome difficulties and challenges in job interviews, compiled a list of 41 reasons why candidates fail at interviews from their past experience dealing with interviewers in companies, and told by interviewers themselves: Poor preparation Displaying a negative attitude or generally being negative No enthusiasm for the company or the role Being dishonest Vague or uninteresting interview answers Arriving late Arriving too early Being rude to the receptionist Smelling like a cigarette Dressed inappropriately Wearing sunglasses Keeping a scarf on during the interview Wearing too much perfume or aftershave Shaking hands too weakly or too strong Complaining that you were kept waiting for the interview Sitting in a too relaxed or aggressive manner Chewing gum, a pen or playing with your hair Forgetting or mispronouncing the name of the interviewer Forgetting what is written on your CV/Resume Being unprepared for the standard interview questions Lying about your skills, experience, knowledge and qualifications Being rude or uncomplimentary about your previous company or boss Sharing too much personal information Failing to explain how your skills match the job in question Interrupting the interviewer Asking too many questions or irrelevant questions Not asking good questions Yawning Not making eye contact or making too much Getting angry or defensive Using phrases like “you know” Laughing at inappropriate moments Sounding desperate or overeager Checking the time Asking about the salary too early Having poor manners Being overconfident Not building rapport Not listening to the interviewer’s questions Inappropriate photos or comments on social media Keeping a tissue for cleaning your glasses in your bra As can be seen, if a company doesn’t want to hire someone, there are indeed plenty of reasons for the company to use. It would certainly mean wasting more of Singaporean applicants’ time by inviting them to come for “bogus” interviews so as to help fool MOM, for those companies which have already pre-selected their foreign candidates. MOM’s latest FCF updates would not be of help at all." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 hours ago, amuse.ed said: oh sounded like its not major milestone afterall. Nope i am not hiring manager nor from HR but just thought that it's a good for knowledge other than the usual discussions. Imho no one will ever declare anyway so the questions are pretty redundant. And if special needs often it will be companies who will reach out to the niche and least vice versa. I guess this will only benefit for people who had mental illness yet functional. Thanks for the input thus far, i learnt much. Why is this so relevant to you? Did you have problems with mental health in the past? I just wonder which interviewer will ask about mental health. Many local companies are not really following that TAFEP stuff "word by word", it is more for the unionised or big MNCs in Singapore. As being a regular "interviewer" I can share some of the points listed above. I had candidates who did not have any single question. Did not even ask about the working hours. Plenty of applicants were talking about past job functions which were not at all relevant for the new job. One applicant was only talking about her childcare leave and if the company would grant more than the legal requirement. One other, told she had received 35 days leave and wanted it for the new job. When I asked why she then resigned, she kept quiet. On a different interview, we intended to hire a sales support for a better focus on African countries. The applicant did not even know African countries. As you mention the MOM. Private companies put up job applications, then you have candidates who apply. For some job descriptions we had only foreigners applying and not one single Singaporean. Would you waste your time or the danger to lose your (foreign) applicant and do more job advertisements to interview at least one Singaporean??? Just be realistic. Please also note the Jobs bank requirement is only for companies of a certain size. And then when you insert the data to MOM, they come up with all those questions. How many Singaporeans you interviewed, how many applied, how many rejected this how many turned up for the interviews that. What was the reason why you did not take the Singaporean....? (there is no tick on the list for "nasty attitude)...ha ha Do you really take down all these details during a hiring phase of one employee??? But, my point is: These questions won't lead to any employer to hire a local, once he decided for the Foreigner. Overall, I still think, most Employers would intend to hire locals if they suit the job and are sufficiently qualified. Foreigners can bring disadvantages too. They out of a sudden resign. We had even employees who just left the country without informing us. Or they jumped to other companies and we did all the training at out end. Actually, what is happening now with this female Minister coming with some bad apples on the MOM tick list for applications, interviews is pre-election wayang to me. "We are doing something..." Teo added that while fair employment norms have become more widespread, some employers have failed to adapt, and “it is timely now to turn our attention to weed out the minority, that still think they can treat the FCF job advertising requirement as a paper exercise”. First company to be charged On Tuesday, Ti2 Logistics became the first firm to be charged under the new FCF framework. Investigations revealed that the company falsely declared that it had interviewed two Singaporean applicants and considered local candidates fairly, for a business development manager position. However, Ti2 Logistics had already pre-selected a Employment Pass applicant and had “no intention to interview any local candidates”. What I can add here is: Note the company Directors of this Ti2 Logistics are Singaporeans..... With such a low unemployment rate in Singapore it is difficult to hire Singaporeans on certain jobs and sectors. This is just a fact and for too many sectors there are crunches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fab Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 These are nitpicking. Arriving too early Keeping a scarf on during the interview Shaking hands too weakly or too strong Complaining that you were kept waiting for the interview Sitting in a too relaxed or aggressive manner Forgetting or mispronouncing the name of the interviewer Sharing too much personal information making eye contact too much Using phrases like “you know” Laughing at inappropriate moments Sounding desperate or overeager Checking the time Keeping a tissue for cleaning your glasses in your bra Quote 鍾意就好，理佢男定女 never argue with the guests. let them bark all they want. 结缘不结怨 解怨不解缘 After I have said what I wanna say, I don't care what you say. 看穿不说穿 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: and what does it have to do with interview practices? You still did not respond to it or made any valid point. the Minister came out with the numbers just recently and from the new jobs 80% went to locals. CNA: Of 60,000 new jobs created from 2015 to 2018, about 80% went to Singaporeans: Chan Chun Sing SINGAPORE: Of the nearly 60,000 new jobs created for the local workforce between 2015 and 2018, about 50,000 went to Singaporeans and more than 9,000 went to permanent residents (PRs), Minister for Trade and Industry Chan Chun Sing revealed on Thursday (Jan 16). Silly to always continue repeating to post untruths about job creation and locals losing out to foreigners. In most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs. And I don't even make a comment about performance... Talk to local employers and you will learn a lot... The Government is pushing you and sponsoring you to upgrade your skills if you doing one of the lesser demanded jobs. If you don't get the hint, then please don't complain later. Hahahahaha ... the devil is always in the details! Do you really think 60,000 new jobs is even enough, assuming that it is even true in the first place??? But let's just give the Ministers the benefit of the doubt that there were indeed 60,000 new jobs created from 2015 to 2018. And let's assume that the Minister was right to claim that 80% went to Singaporeans. But why did he take so long to come up with all these numbers, and these numbers only came up after how many challenges from the opposition parties? Did you know that in 2017 alone, there were already 18,537 graduates from the universities and another 25,805 graduates from the polytechnics? In the previous year, there was another 15,895 graduates from the universities and 26,266 graduates from polytechnics. In just these two years alone, there were already a need for more than 60,000 jobs for all those fresh graduates. You can go look at the data here for yourself: https://www.singstat.gov.sg/find-data/search-by-theme/population/education-language-spoken-and-literacy/latest-data Do you think 60,000 new jobs created in those three years for just those fresh graduates in the two years to take up? Or do you think there are enough retirees for those new fresh graduates to get new jobs. And furthermore, who said that "most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs"?? Go take a look at the banking situation. Show us your actual data, otherwise you yourself stand accused of your own crime of "always continue repeating to post untruths"!! I do not need to talk to any local employees, because I am ONE myself! LOL! So now, are you Disclosed Yourself, or singalion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: What I can add here is: Note the company Directors of this Ti2 Logistics are Singaporeans..... Really? Locally born Singaporeans, or naturalised Singaporeans from India/China/... ? And even if locally born Singaporeans, are the Directors the owner of the show, or just the puppets pulled by some puppet masters overseas? In fact, Ramesh Erramallis who was filmed behaving aggressively and rudely towards the security guard at Eight Riversuites condominium has a wife was who mentioned to be a local Singaporean as well, while he is still only a PR. Makes one wonder why the differences in nationaities .... Not enough Singaporean Indians in Singapore for a local Indian woman to get married? Or was the wife a naturalized Singaporean? 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: Actually, what is happening now with this female Minister coming with some bad apples on the MOM tick list for applications, interviews is pre-election wayang to me. "We are doing something..." Agreed. But it's too little, too late. The damage is all done already. There's no way we can go back to the days when LKY was around to go smack those errant companies anymore. 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: For some job descriptions we had only foreigners applying and not one single Singaporean. Would you waste your time or the danger to lose your (foreign) applicant and do more job advertisements to interview at least one Singaporean??? Just be realistic. Money makes the world goes round. And we Singaporeans need money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 It still stands from all statistical data from MOM in Singapore there are more locals in the workforce than foreigners. I just wonder how with the very low unemployment rate foreigners can take away jobs of locals. Singapore has an extreme low unemployment rate. Don't forget despite declining economy the total employment rate even was growing with 22,000 more jobs between June to Sep 2019! As to the data Singapore does not suffer any youth unemployment. I have not seen or heard any complaints from fresh graduates, unless the unemployed fresh graduates are not very vocal. The time to find a job seems around 3 months for fresh graduates. For all local banks the foreigners in the very high ranks are extremely rare. Even Standard Chartered, HSBC have mostly locals in the upper top ranks. Only DBS has this PR as MD/CEO. But in all local banks the higher managerial positions are placed by locals. If you talk about UBS, Credit Suisse, this is a different story as they are foreign private banks. But they still employ many locals in higher managerial positions and even "hitched" local high profilers from other local banks to complement their customer base. I requested you to talk to local employERS and not employees. You prefer to ask others for data, while you yourself never provided any data to support what you make up here. Your repeated untruth of stating "foreigners taking away jobs of locals" is well known but you failed to ever provide any statistical data to support this repeated untruth. Your statement foreigners are taking away jobs of locals is a myth. There is no truth in it in Singapore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 39 minutes ago, Guest Guest said: Really? Locally born Singaporeans, or naturalised Singaporeans from India/China/... ? And even if locally born Singaporeans, are the Directors the owner of the show, or just the puppets pulled by some puppet masters overseas? In fact, Ramesh Erramallis who was filmed behaving aggressively and rudely towards the security guard at Eight Riversuites condominium has a wife was who mentioned to be a local Singaporean as well, while he is still only a PR. Makes one wonder why the differences in nationaities .... Not enough Singaporean Indians in Singapore for a local Indian woman to get married? Or was the wife a naturalized Singaporean? This is another of your typical traits. If Singaporeans are blamed you prefer to paint them as new citizens or naturalised Singaporeans. Or even if he is a true blue local you claim he would be a puppet with a foreigner pulling the strings. Check the data: the MD of this errant company has such a local Singaporean name. I can't even imagine a better local Singaporean name... Singaporeans are never black sheep? How narrowminded and biased mindset of yours... The type of thinking local Singaporean women ought to marry only true blue Singaporean men can be categorised as a fascist point of view. You just disclosed your true self to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: It still stands from all statistical data from MOM in Singapore there are more locals in the workforce than foreigners. I just wonder how with the very low unemployment rate foreigners can take away jobs of locals. Singapore has an extreme low unemployment rate. What do you expect? The day a country has more foreign workers than the local workers should be the day that government gets overthrown. So what if Singapore has a low unemployment rate. In fact, if there are no foreigners in Singapore, the unemployment rate might be next to zero. Besides, do you know what is underemployment? Why aren't you looking at underemployment? 10 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: Don't forget despite declining economy the total employment rate even was growing with 22,000 more jobs between June to Sep 2019! Yeah... That's right... It seems that each time employment is brought up for debate, the economy slows down regardless if our GDP goes up or down, doesn't it? 12 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: If you talk about UBS, Credit Suisse, this is a different story as they are foreign private banks. Is that even an excuse? Foreign private banks, and therefore it becomes an excuse for them to hire foreigners? 23 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: You prefer to ask others for data, while you yourself never provided any data to support what you make up here. Your repeated untruth of stating "foreigners taking away jobs of locals" is well known but you failed to ever provide any statistical data to support this repeated untruth. Your statement foreigners are taking away jobs of locals is a myth. There is no truth in it in Singapore. Do you have any statistics to show otherwise? Is MOM even open for us to scrutinize their figures? In fact, just how long did the opposition MP take to wrestle out the information from our Minister himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: This is another of your typical traits. If Singaporeans are blamed you prefer to paint them as new citizens or naturalised Singaporeans. Or even if he is a true blue local you claim he would be a puppet with a foreigner pulling the strings. Check the data: the MD of this errant company has such a local Singaporean name. I can't even imagine a better local Singaporean name... Singaporeans are never black sheep? How narrowminded and biased mindset of yours... The type of thinking local Singaporean women ought to marry only true blue Singaporean men can be categorised as a fascist point of view. You just disclosed your true self to us. You know what? It is completely pointless to even have this discussion with you here. You can only fool people for so long, but never forever. It's been one election after another election of wayang shows and empty promises for almost a decade now. . And now, from what I can see, they are even resorting to needing foreigners like you to go defend them. They have really reached a new low in the entire history of Singapore. Thank you for your contributions. You have actually done more damage to the very people you are trying to defend, by denying what we already know on the ground. Let the coming elections speak for us, and let's see if he will still get the 70% this time, after how he had fought his siblings publicly, sued his own citizens in our courts, and even changed the entire CONSTITUTION just so that a Malay (or was it Indian.. LOL) to his liking can become our President. And all these were done in the name of doing it for the nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) As we know that statistics are just about number crunching. And can be manipulated. What my real concern is how many of the Singaporeans mentioned in the stats manage to sustain their employment? Getting employed is one thing, sustaining and achieving job fulfillment are different entities. The fact that we are seeing more and more freelancers who are Singaporeans are worrying. The favouritism towards similar nationality is also very real in every industry too. As a person with bipolar disorder, I have seen, heard and experienced job discriminations against this niche of people to the max. Imagine a native Sporean being paid only Sgd 2.50 per hour for a 4hrs office cleaner job. There's nothing we can do as a layman to curb the current phenomenon but to ride against the wave and hopefully human employment perceptions and behaviours may be adjusted overtime (not hoping for immediate change though). Edited January 19, 2020 by amuse.ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Guest jobs said: This is another of your typical traits. If Singaporeans are blamed you prefer to paint them as new citizens or naturalised Singaporeans. Or even if he is a true blue local you claim he would be a puppet with a foreigner pulling the strings. Check the data: the MD of this errant company has such a local Singaporean name. I can't even imagine a better local Singaporean name... Singaporeans are never black sheep? How narrowminded and biased mindset of yours... The type of thinking local Singaporean women ought to marry only true blue Singaporean men can be categorised as a fascist point of view. You just disclosed your true self to us. Look at this article https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/5-firms-have-faced-stiffer-penalties-under-enhanced-framework-tackling-discriminatory. Tell me what do you think are the nationalities of the Directors at NIHON PREMIUM CLINIC PTE LTD and TARANTULA GLOBAL HOLDINGS PTE LTD? And do you think the human resource team based overseas who did the pre-selection at MEYER BURGER (SINGAPORE) PTE LTD are Singaporeans? Always so quick to bash the locals, but turning your eyes away from the foreign trash like those above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 The MOM news flash only reported about Ti2 Logistics, a clearly local company with local management and owners. And why didn't you mention MEOW SERVICES PTE LTD as from the Today article, being punished by MOM in your rebuttal? Because it's another pure local company with local owners violating MOM's rules? See how flawed and selective you are. Anyway, you still didn't give any supporting evidence to your claim: "Foreigners are taking jobs of locals." It remains false propaganda not supported by any evidence, mere allegations without any true basis. On a note: I have never been a government supporter. True democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of assembly mean a lot to me. But I would never permit false allegations or statements who make foreigners unjustifiedly to scapegoats. In my personal opinion the old man knew any economic growth in Singapore had never been sustainable without the support and influx of foreigners. I don't mind if you point out flaws or wrongs of the government, but refrain from fingerpointing to innocent foreigners. The majority of them are humble, very hardworking and nice people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Guest jobs said: The MOM news flash only reported about Ti2 Logistics, a clearly local company with local management and owners. And why didn't you mention MEOW SERVICES PTE LTD as from the Today article, being punished by MOM in your rebuttal? Because it's another pure local company with local owners violating MOM's rules? See how flawed and selective you are. Selective? Meow Services added in a condition asking only for male candidates. What has that got to do with discrimination against Singaporeans? Are you so out of arguments that you need to nitpick already? 2 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Anyway, you still didn't give any supporting evidence to your claim: "Foreigners are taking jobs of locals." It remains false propaganda not supported by any evidence, mere allegations without any true basis. Excuse me .... what did you think the penalized companies were doing? The evidences are there for everyone to see, and you are still denying the obvious??? And besides, you were the one who made the false claim below saying that "In most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs", and you are asking others to provide supporting evidence on something which is already evidenced??? On 1/18/2020 at 9:09 PM, Guest jobs said: In most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs. 2 hours ago, Guest jobs said: I don't mind if you point out flaws or wrongs of the government, but refrain from fingerpointing to innocent foreigners. The majority of them are humble, very hardworking and nice people. "humble, very hardworking and nice people"?? You are so obviously not one of them. Get lost, @singalion . Who the hell do you think you are to speak of our country affairs? Is our country affairs even meant for yu to comment on? If you are not happy about the citizens criticizing si angmohs like you, then leave the country. And even if the country needs foreigners, YOU are not one of them we need! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 No arguments, no supporting evidence, mere allegations. The MOM cases don’t support any of your statements “locals losing out to foreigners” or “foreigners taking away jobs of locals”. Where is your evidence? You are alleging something is obvious by trying to create a reference to the MOM cases which is not there at all. What you call “obvious” is your personal unsubstantiated conclusion, but nothing else. You never provided any evidence for your statement or your objecting for “locals being the high salary earners and foreigners earning less”. Where is your supporting evidence??? Where? The MD for Far East Organisation and all other C level managers of this company are low income earners and the Filipino customer support staff high income earners? Is it that what you’re saying? MOM did never conclude by penalizing the 5 companies for Singaporean’s having been better qualified for those jobs but penalised the companies not having properly advertised the jobs to allow Singaporean’s to apply and not having properly followed hiring procedures. 1 hour ago, Guest Guest said: Are you so out of arguments that you need to nitpick already? Are so out of arguments and now need to chase locals out? Everybody knows you like to start fights with guy’s objecting or rebutting your allegations and untrue statements here. I don’t understand that referring to singalion. Not sure what’s this about. Just putting up your own wayang??? Bringing up only unsubstantiated anti-foreigner slogans doesn’t count as supporting evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 Know your employment rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 22 hours ago, Guest jobs said: The MOM cases don’t support any of your statements “locals losing out to foreigners” or “foreigners taking away jobs of locals”. Where is your evidence? You are alleging something is obvious by trying to create a reference to the MOM cases which is not there at all. What you call “obvious” is your personal unsubstantiated conclusion, but nothing else. 23 hours ago, Guest jobs said: MOM did never conclude by penalizing the 5 companies for Singaporean’s having been better qualified for those jobs but penalised the companies not having properly advertised the jobs to allow Singaporean’s to apply and not having properly followed hiring procedures. Excuse me ... go read the article on MOM website itself. It says of Ti2 "In reality, it had already pre-selected the EP applicant and had no intention to interview any Singaporean candidates.". This was listed in MOM website already. Still want to ask for evidence when the evidence is already there for you to read?? If there's any more evidence to be seen here, it is the evidence of how you can ignore glaring factual evidences right in front of you. 22 hours ago, Guest jobs said: You never provided any evidence for your statement or your objecting for “locals being the high salary earners and foreigners earning less”. Where is your supporting evidence??? Where? Huh? So now, I need to be the one to provide evidences to object to your baseless claims that "In most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs"??? What type of logic is this? The logic from some foreign trash?? Or do you have the exact same God-complex that @singalion had, i.e. you do not need to provide evidence for anything you say, because anything you say is the truth? 22 hours ago, Guest jobs said: The MD for Far East Organisation and all other C level managers of this company are low income earners and the Filipino customer support staff high income earners? Is it that what you’re saying? What??? So you are using the company founded by one of Singapore's BILLIONAIRES, and use that to claim that the MD for Far East Organisation and all other C level managers of this company are locals and has higher income than the Filipino customer support staff, and therefore, "most companies nowadays the locals are the high salary earners, the foreigners receiving much less for same jobs"??? Seriously, if it ever reach the stage that a local company founded by a Singapore BILLIONAIRE actually have foreign staff earning more than the local MDs, this country has fallen off the cliff!! 23 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Are so out of arguments and now need to chase locals out? Everybody knows you like to start fights with guy’s objecting or rebutting your allegations and untrue statements here. I don’t understand that referring to singalion. Not sure what’s this about. Just putting up your own wayang??? Bringing up only unsubstantiated anti-foreigner slogans doesn’t count as supporting evidence. You are no local. if you are a local, it's obvious you are a foreign trash loving traitor, and a really stupid one too. Enough said already lah ... no point arguing with stupid people like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Guest Guest said: Excuse me ... go read the article on MOM website itself. It says of Ti2 "In reality, it had already pre-selected the EP applicant and had no intention to interview any Singaporean candidates.". This was listed in MOM website already. Still want to ask for evidence when the evidence is already there for you to read?? If there's any more evidence to be seen here, it is the evidence of how you can ignore glaring factual evidences right in front of you. 1) You missed the point. Yes, MOM said the Ti2 had not interviewed any Singaporeans or given Singaporeans a chance to be invited for interviews. But you can't conclude Singaporeans would have got the job, even if this company had given Singaporeans a chance to apply for the jobs or interviewed Singaporeans. As this is not clear, it is false to say: Foreigners had taken the jobs of locals. We simply don't know whether can we verify if any Singaporeans would have been offered the jobs by this company. 2) Where is your evidence for Foreigners earning higher salaries compared to Singaporeans in similar jobs? 3) You are correct, it is futile to discuss with you due to your preconceived mindset and fascist view of seeing Foreigners as always inferior to locals or as the ills of society. Can you explain to me again in a society with 2.6% overall unemployment, how foreigners take away the jobs of locals??? Do you seriously think Singapore can continue to function without the daily contribution to the workforce by foreigners? What a stupid thought....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: 1) You missed the point. Yes, MOM said the Ti2 had not interviewed any Singaporeans or given Singaporeans a chance to be invited for interviews. But you can't conclude Singaporeans would have got the job, even if this company had given Singaporeans a chance to apply for the jobs or interviewed Singaporeans. As this is not clear, it is false to say: Foreigners had taken the jobs of locals. We simply don't know whether can we verify if any Singaporeans would have been offered the jobs by this company. If this is not foreigner taking over the jobs of local, what is? 3 over million Singaporean citizens, and maybe half of them I assume to be of working age. And so, maybe 1.5 million working Singaporeans out there, and not a single one can be offered the job? Is this logistics company paying too little, or are they hiring some highly technical people like quantum physics scientists? 18 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: 3) You are correct, it is futile to discuss with you due to your preconceived mindset and fascist view of seeing Foreigners as always inferior to locals or as the ills of society Go back to your own country and tell your fellow citizens that the foreigners there deserves better jobs then the locals there. 23 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: Do you seriously think Singapore can continue to function without the daily contribution to the workforce by foreigners? I seriously think Singapore can continue to function without the daily contribution to the workforce by a significant number of useless parasitic foreigners like YOU. 22 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: 2) Where is your evidence for Foreigners earning higher salaries compared to Singaporeans in similar jobs? 20 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: Can you explain to me again in a society with 2.6% overall unemployment, how foreigners take away the jobs of locals??? That has already been debated. No point talking about it again and again and again like some broken record player. Go read the previous posts again, stupid. Your constant need to repeat the debated points just proves that you are out of arguments. Get lost, you foreign trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 1:13 AM, Guest Guest said: You know what? It is completely pointless to even have this discussion with you here. You can only fool people for so long, but never forever. It's been one election after another election of wayang shows and empty promises for almost a decade now. . And now, from what I can see, they are even resorting to needing foreigners like you to go defend them. They have really reached a new low in the entire history of Singapore. Thank you for your contributions. You have actually done more damage to the very people you are trying to defend, by denying what we already know on the ground. Let the coming elections speak for us, and let's see if he will still get the 70% this time, after how he had fought his siblings publicly, sued his own citizens in our courts, and even changed the entire CONSTITUTION just so that a Malay (or was it Indian.. LOL) to his liking can become our President. And all these were done in the name of doing it for the nation. Good post! "Zceng-Hoo" really PCB. That INDIAN car-park attendant can be Melayu. Really, KNN! On 1/19/2020 at 9:06 AM, amuse.ed said: As we know that statistics are just about number crunching. And can be manipulated. What my real concern is how many of the Singaporeans mentioned in the stats manage to sustain their employment? Getting employed is one thing, sustaining and achieving job fulfillment are different entities. The fact that we are seeing more and more freelancers who are Singaporeans are worrying. The favouritism towards similar nationality is also very real in every industry too. As a person with bipolar disorder, I have seen, heard and experienced job discriminations against this niche of people to the max. Imagine a native Sporean being paid only Sgd 2.50 per hour for a 4hrs office cleaner job. There's nothing we can do as a layman to curb the current phenomenon but to ride against the wave and hopefully human employment perceptions and behaviours may be adjusted overtime (not hoping for immediate change though). I agree. Government manipulated and does not want to disclose. I will definitely slap the MP is I see them overseas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 22 hours ago, amuse.ed said: Know your employment rights. Be very careful of the wayang shows. What they say may not be what they do. And if you believe in what they say wholeheartedly, you will be the one to suffer the consequences in case what they say don't happen at all. You'll be the one with a lost job opportunity. And during that time, all they will do is just to stay on the sideline watching you bleed under the bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 In fact my primary concern is that there are still other ways for companies to acquire the information via different channels or their requirement clause. Imho, its pointless to have this move unless there are stricter and precise legislations that protect the rights of people with mental illness and disabilities whereby discrimination by individuals and companies are take to task legally. So as what was mentioned, its a wayang afterall in time of the upcoming GE. Ok, the stage is set, now where are the supporting actors and actresses??? lolz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, amuse.ed said: In fact my primary concern is that there are still other ways for companies to acquire the information via different channels or their requirement clause. Imho, its pointless to have this move unless there are stricter and precise legislations that protect the rights of people with mental illness and disabilities whereby discrimination by individuals and companies are take to task legally. So as what was mentioned, its a wayang afterall in time of the upcoming GE. Ok, the stage is set, now where are the supporting actors and actresses??? lolz The supporting actors and actresses are those who are willing to be fooled up on stage to participate in this wayang show. Every single vote will count for any parties this time. Even if 1000 people got hoodwinked, like how you almost did, it is still 1000 additional votes for them. All they had to lose was just the effort of one single person to write that article on the newspaper, and writing about a piece of news that had been in the pipeline for years some more. I guess times are getting desperate for some people now. In the past, they had to resort to wooing old folks. Now, they are resorting to wooing people with mental illness. They are out of touch and out of ideas. Who created such a society where the old was barely cared for in the past, and the workplace still so stressed even in the present? You, me or them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Since u r here said: true! i think the mental thingy is not gonna be a big factor on GE it is because it was assumed by the residents of the ivory towers that people with or with past mental illnesses are a group of emotionally unstable people who cannot manage their holistic well being thus cannot vote wisely. Even the national radio pgm Counsellor said that those who who complained their govt and loved ones are unhappy and depressed people. Look how they label? And then it took them several decades to realise this that they must employ fairly? I did like to think that the current ruling party have no more patterns to chut liao so anything also can hum tum. Then few years later conduct another research study and state 90% of the employers are not ready for it. Walah! LP PL. Edited January 21, 2020 by amuse.ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amuse.ed Posted January 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Guest Guest said: The supporting actors and actresses are those who are willing to be fooled up on stage to participate in this wayang show. Every single vote will count for any parties this time. Even if 1000 people got hoodwinked, like how you almost did, it is still 1000 additional votes for them. All they had to lose was just the effort of one single person to write that article on the newspaper, and writing about a piece of news that had been in the pipeline for years some more. I guess times are getting desperate for some people now. In the past, they had to resort to wooing old folks. Now, they are resorting to wooing people with mental illness. They are out of touch and out of ideas. Who created such a society where the old was barely cared for in the past, and the workplace still so stressed even in the present? You, me or them? It's a bingo!!! Ok can close the thread liao. nothing more to discuss ler. Later kena pofma. lolz Edited January 21, 2020 by amuse.ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 18 hours ago, Guest Guest said: 18 hours ago, Guest jobs said: 1) You missed the point. Yes, MOM said the Ti2 had not interviewed any Singaporeans or given Singaporeans a chance to be invited for interviews. But you can't conclude Singaporeans would have got the job, even if this company had given Singaporeans a chance to apply for the jobs or interviewed Singaporeans. As this is not clear, it is false to say: Foreigners had taken the jobs of locals. We simply don't know whether can we verify if any Singaporeans would have been offered the jobs by this company. If this is not foreigner taking over the jobs of local, what is? 3 over million Singaporean citizens, and maybe half of them I assume to be of working age. And so, maybe 1.5 million working Singaporeans out there, and not a single one can be offered the job? Is this logistics company paying too little, or are they hiring some highly technical people like quantum physics scientists? Sorry, you are still missing the point. Is it due to a lack of intellectual abilities? Or is it because of your preconceived mindset? Unfortunately, you are repeating slogans which do not stand against the facts and numbers. You have not come out with any facts, data or numbers to support your allegation for "Foreigners taking away the jobs of locals". Where is your data, where are your numbers? If you have near to full employment with the citizens of Singapore, how can foreigners take away the jobs of Singaporeans? The fact, maybe only 2/3 of the 3.5 Million Singaporeans are belonging to the workforce, does not make any difference. And how could it if the unemployment rate is 2.3%. You are making more allegations without looking up the numbers. The numbers all exist. The workforce number of the total population stands at 68% for 2019. Total population is 5.64 mil. The workforce is at 3,715,8000. That makes 2,380,000 Singaporeans in the workforce. The total foreign workforce (excluding Foreign Domestic Workers and Foreign Construction Workers) in Singapore stand at 800,000 (EP Holders at 185,800, S Pass at 195,500, Work passes at 407,000 (excluding FDW and Foreign Construction Workers)). It is justified for the data to indicate the numbers for FDW and Construction Workers as we can assume, Singaporeans would not intend to work in these sectors. Just to avoid for you coming up with "naturalised" citizens. Citizenship has been granted to an average of roughly 20,500 per year for the past 10 years. That makes 205,000 new citizens in 10 years (62.5% from South East Asian countries, probably the majority Malaysian Chinese). Not all would be in the workforce. Please explain again to everyone here, how "Foreigners are taking jobs of locals in Singapore"??? 800,000 Foreigners against 2,4 million Singaporeans in the workforce. And from the 407,000 Workers within the group of 800,000 Foreigners, I probably rightly can say, 2/3 of Singaporeans would not want to work in these jobs (factory workers, cleaners, ship repair, oil bunkers.... ) How are Foreigners taking away jobs of locals??? All what you have been putting up here is people to believe in your falsehoods and propaganda slogans. None of your anti-foreigner slogans are fit for a reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West93 Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 20 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Sorry, you are still missing the point. Is it due to a lack of intellectual abilities? Or is it because of your preconceived mindset? Unfortunately, you are repeating slogans which do not stand against the facts and numbers. You have not come out with any facts, data or numbers to support your allegation for "Foreigners taking away the jobs of locals". Where is your data, where are your numbers? Allow me to throw the words of our "Dear minister" Chan Chun Sing at you. "“We can get you the numbers. But let me say this. What is the point behind the question?" The Singapore Government has excellent form in being opaque about data and statistics when it can't be overtly couched and shown as a positive for the leadership or for the country. Hence, it is disingenuous for people like you to talk about how data interpretation is important BEFORE data is even made available for interpretation. Classic diversionary tactic here. It's like the PAP decided that the general public and academics out there who aren't wearing PAP white are definitely 100% unable to interpret the data they request for, before they even have the chance to do so. Doesn't this sound similar to why the PAP has had a stranglehold on politics in Singapore ever since independence? Because they've managed to convince everyone that the Opposition, or anyone who isn't PAP can never be capable of running a country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, West93 said: Allow me to throw the words of our "Dear minister" Chan Chun Sing at you. "“We can get you the numbers. But let me say this. What is the point behind the question?" The Singapore Government has excellent form in being opaque about data and statistics when it can't be overtly couched and shown as a positive for the leadership or for the country. Hence, it is disingenuous for people like you to talk about how data interpretation is important BEFORE data is even made available for interpretation. Classic diversionary tactic here. It's like the PAP decided that the general public and academics out there who aren't wearing PAP white are definitely 100% unable to interpret the data they request for, before they even have the chance to do so. Doesn't this sound similar to why the PAP has had a stranglehold on politics in Singapore ever since independence? Because they've managed to convince everyone that the Opposition, or anyone who isn't PAP can never be capable of running a country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 I do not want to discuss about the Minister who did not intend to break down the data for the MP asking him. The only thing I can say, the response was not very smart. I assume the 10 year data may reflect a bigger influx of Foreigners to Singapore. We all know after the financial crisis 2007, the economy peaked at 13% GDP growth and the companies needed manpower. In those years after 2008 to 2014 there was a higher influx of working Foreigners to Singapore. But without the manpower expansion in these years, many companies had shifted operations to other countries away from Singapore if they had failed to find the manpower they needed. And did Singaporeans suffer due to the economic expansion? I don't think so. I don't even think, Singaporeans lost their jobs and Foreigners had taken their jobs in those years, because there was a huge manpower crunch. Many Singaporeans who previously worked in our company and moved to different employers during those years are all in better paid jobs and moved up the ladder in responsibilities and pay. And salaries for Singaporeans have been on the rise for the past years. You look at the data. What we however cannot forget, due to higher automation or manufacturing requirements, jobs are reduced in certain areas. Yes, I guess, some of these Singaporeans might have had a longer period to find another job or in the best part did some upgrading training to fit to new job requirements. The world and the economy are not on a standstill. I would even guess, some of these Singaporean fellows went into something like early retirement and part time working. Sure I have encountered Singaporean taxi drivers or grab drivers who previously were engineers, technicians or managers at different levels. There is no guarantee nowadays for jobs being eternal or for you being in the same job for many years as previously. I m not running around Singapore with dark tainted glasses... Eventually, the MPs can ask if there is any data on these "drop outs" or whether they are later re-employed. Such data would be more interesting than merely the ratio of locals and foreigners distribution on the new job creations the last 3 years. But over all Singapore never suffered any huge local unemployment rate during these 10 years. Even if from 2008 to 2015 on the data more jobs (which were created in Singapore due to expanding businesses or new influx of companies setting up here) were given to foreigners, the Singaporeans were still in employ and I doubt any foreigners had replaced Singaporeans on jobs. During those times it was even very difficult to find some local office admin staff. For all periods the unemployment rate was stuck at very low levels. After 2014 MOM started reducing the numbers of EP and S pass holders and ICA gave fewer PRs to applicants. But you need to know, the restrictions on hiring foreigners caused many companies to shift functions into countries outside Singapore or to expand only overseas. There are two sides to the coin... If you look at recent data, efficiency and productivity have not significantly increased so far. "Productivity in Singapore remained unchanged at 99.50 Index Points in the third quarter of 2019 from 99.50 Index Points in the second quarter of 2019" Singapore’s productivity push still a ‘work in progress’ despite 2017 growth spurt The surge in productivity growth last year was driven mainly by external demand and economists are doubtful about its sustainability." However, the data I am citing in my previous posts is taken from the government boards and are all public at MOM and Dep of Stats. They are public and accessible for everyone. But I remain to say, it is still valid to state "Foreigners are not taking away jobs of locals in Singapore". The people who use the slogan of Foreigners taking jobs of locals is a slogan with no backing from any available public data. Concluding on the data, you can't say "foreigners have taken the jobs of locals", if it had been a fact, then the unemployment rate for locals should be somewhere above 5% - 10% for Singaporeans. For sure I m not in any position to verify whether the data from MOM or Dep of Stats is accurate. But there are other independent institutions verifying numbers from Singapore or UN bodies who look into the data. I m quite sure, if there had been any serious tampering of statistical data, it had been raised overseas. Today with all programs and lately even Artificial Intelligence it is easy to verify whether data is somehow accurate or makes sense. Singapore seems not like China, where you can't look into the data and most data is not even public. I will post one article after this post, where you can see experts discussion this manpower thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 Singapore’s Productivity Bottleneck: What can be Done to Arrest the Decline of Productivity Growth? By Tham Yin Yee on 21 January , 2019 Singapore has transformed itself into a vibrant city-state with one of the highest gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in the world. However, real growth has slowed in recent years. Singapore fuelled its impressive economic growth primarily through factor accumulation — attracting foreign capital and importing foreign workers — and not increasing productivity. This strategy has now run into diminishing returns. With a total fertility rate of 1.16, Singapore’s population is shrinking, forcing the country to import workers. In 2017, foreign workers constituted 38% of Singapore’s labour force. A ready supply of cheap foreign labour obviated the need for businesses to innovate or to invest in productivity enhancing technologies. Contribution of total factor productivity to GDP growth, a proxy for technological efficiency, ran into the negatives in the 2010s. Singapore has to drastically reform into an innovation-driven economy if it is to sustain its economic standards. What can Singapore do to increase productivity levels? A mindset shift to embrace lifelong learning is important for individuals and the economy as a whole to remain relevant. Cut foreign labour to reduce dependence The government sought to reduce dependence on foreign labour by introducing quotas and increasing levies. These policies have reduced the growth in foreign labour from 144,500 in 2007 to 5,700 in 2017.In recent years, there have been increased pleas to relax the foreign worker quota, particularly in industries perceived to be shunned by locals such as construction, marine shipyards and the food and beverage sector. Relaxing the dependency ratio would be undoing the government’s efforts to force businesses to find more efficient ways of operating. Higher productivity could increase real wages, which may attract Singaporeans back into these industries in the long run. Hire high-skilled foreign labour instead of low-skilled ones The government has created incentives for businesses to hire skilled foreign labour. Employers pay higher work permit levy for basic skilled workers compared to higher skilled ones.Similarly, there have been objections to the revised foreign worker levy system, with some arguing that the levies erode profit. The grouses signify that the levy system has served its intended purpose forcing businesses to recalibrate their strategies and increase productivity. Upskill existing labour force As a multi-pronged strategy to boost productivity, the government also needs to upskill its domestic labour force. Over S$1 billion is invested annually to support the SkillsFuture programme. Construction Registration of Tradesmen and the Multi-skilling Scheme were introduced to allow construction workers to specialise in a specific trade and to master multiple skills. The programme is structured to promote continuous renewal of skills and industrial knowledge.Short-term skill courses on its own is insufficient to enable mid-career transitions or to brace against the pace of jobs being disrupted. A mindset shift to embrace lifelong learning is important for individuals and the economy as a whole to remain relevant. Build businesses’ digital capabilities By supporting enterprises to adopt digital technologies, such as electronic payments and automations, businesses can enhance productivity and widen market opportunities.The government has introduced the SkillsFuture for Digital Workplace programme to enable the shift towards a digital economy. This programme equips Singaporeans with practical skills in emerging technologies such as social media management, online transactions and cloud-based collaborative tools. Tax benefits are provided for companies, especially small- and medium-sized enterprises, to upgrade their technology and procure productivity enhancing capital goods. Digital skills training programmes must be reviewed periodically to ensure its relevance in the future economy. The government must also anticipate and mitigate disruptions related to technological change to ease public adoption. Successful implementation of an interoperable cashless payment system for example, is contingent upon cooperation from different e-payment solution providers and buy-in from small merchants that have long relied on cash payments. Innovate and create commercially viable products Despite being tech-savvy, Singaporeans are not creators themselves. Singapore ranks 25th worldwide in its intellectual property filing activities. However, 85% of these patents were filed by non-residents. To remain competitive, Singapore must aim higher in the value chain and pioneer innovations instead. Cognizant of the potential gains in bolstering innovations, over S$19 billion will be invested over five years under the Research, Innovation and Enterprise 2016-2020 Plan (RIE 2020) to support four strategic domains: advanced manufacturing and engineering; health and biomedical sciences; urban solutions and sustainability; and services and digital economy. Leading universities in Singapore are already part of the RIE2020 plan. These institutions’ research interests must be aligned with the nation’s economic ambitions as well as industry demand. Rethinking what we teach in schools Of all strategies, spurring innovation is most elusive. The “migration” of foreign start-ups and scientists into Singapore indicates the strength of the regulatory environment and ecosystem to support innovation, commercialisation and scaling up. Creating and incubating domestic ideations on the other hand requires a culture of experimentation, risk-taking and the pursuit of entrepreneurship. Is Singapore’s world-class education system nurturing creativity in young minds? That is a question to ponder. Tham Yin Yee is a Li Ka Shing Scholar and recent Master in Public Administration graduate at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy. She is also a Teach for Malaysia alumna and member of the Teach for All Community of Practice for Education Policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 OMG .... this is utter whitewashing to the max.... It's just that I am so busy with my spring cleaning now, otherwise I have really so much more to say... 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: I assume the 10 year data may reflect a bigger influx of Foreigners to Singapore. We all know after the financial crisis 2007, the economy peaked at 13% GDP growth and the companies needed manpower. In those years after 2008 to 2014 there was a higher influx of working Foreigners to Singapore. But without the manpower expansion in these years, many companies had shifted operations to other countries away from Singapore if they had failed to find the manpower they needed. And did Singaporeans suffer due to the economic expansion? I don't think so. I don't even think, Singaporeans lost their jobs and Foreigners had taken their jobs in those years, because there was a huge manpower crunch. Remember how the 2011 GE came and all those jobless people started coming out of the woodworks to state their stories of how long they were unemployed? That was when the ruling party lost support till an all time low. I guess you didn't even know that, did you? And you still want to ask "And did Singaporeans suffer due to the economic expansion? 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: Even if from 2008 to 2015 on the data more jobs (which were created in Singapore due to expanding businesses or new influx of companies setting up here) were given to foreigners, the Singaporeans were still in employ and I doubt any foreigners had replaced Singaporeans on jobs. During those times it was even very difficult to find some local office admin staff. For all periods the unemployment rate was stuck at very low levels. Again... this proves of a daydreamer speaking without evidences with statements such as "the Singaporeans were still in employ and I doubt any foreigners had replaced Singaporeans on jobs" ... And excuse me, I guess Singaporeans are only good for "local office admin " now? You are resorting to using the claim that Singaporeans are not looking for "office admin" jobs, so you are hiring foreigners for better jobs?? I guess you were also looking for Singaporean construction workers? This reminds me of how Khaw Boon Wan started talking about the need for foreign construction workers when the opposition MPs were talking about EPs holders. 1 hour ago, Guest jobs said: Concluding on the data, you can't say "foreigners have taken the jobs of locals", if it had been a fact, then the unemployment rate for locals should be somewhere above 5% - 10% for Singaporeans. Again, more misleading statistics are being thrown here.To make my point short, sharp and sweet, I'd just use UAE as an example, where the unemployment rate is 2.58% when 83.7% of the country comprises of foreigners. What does this show? Low unemployment rate has never been any good indication as to whether foreigners are taking over the locals jobs or not. So, I hope nobody ever get misled into thinking that. To use another example where the country went up in arms against the administration for allowing too many immigrants into the country: Germany. Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.1% with 14.9% of the population being foreigners. And for that, they lost about 8% votes, costing them a lot of seats in Parliament in 2017. If any country is to take any action to restrict immigration flow only when unemployment rate hit "5% - 10%" as per what this Guest jobs had said, the foreigners would be laughing all the way to the banks back home, and they are laughing at the host country for being the suckers whom they have been feeding off parasitically all the time. The host country would have been bed dry by then! So please do not believe in such words and read with lots of care and consideration. And yes, our overall unemployment rate is around 2.3%. But for those who are so inclined to find out our actual citizen unemployment rate right now for the past three quarters in Mar, Jun and September 2019, the numbers stands at 3.2% (March 2019), 3.2% (June 2019) and 3.3% (Sep 2019). Numbers are here; https://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Unemployment-Summary-Table.aspx As for those who wants to find out the situation of underemployment here, please read these two articles here http://theindependent.sg/low-salaries-and-underemployment-a-rising-trend/ and here https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/survey-findings-underemployment-show-spores-graduate-poor-earn-less-2000-month To all readers of the thread, please go judge for yourself who is trying to mislead people with lies here, and whose posts are backed by facts, regardless if the facts are on the basis of statistics, or what you see of your own or others' situation/circumstantial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 Do you think throwing in some numbers will convince us? Compared to 2017, the Citizen unemployment rate went down in 2019. Figures from Oct to Nov are not yet in. The Citizen unemployment rate will be somewhere around 3% for 2019. This is a very low rate of unemployment. 3 hours ago, Guest Guest said: And excuse me, I guess Singaporeans are only good for "local office admin " now? You are resorting to using the claim that Singaporeans are not looking for "office admin" jobs, so you are hiring foreigners for better jobs?? I guess you were also looking for Singaporean construction workers? This reminds me of how Khaw Boon Wan started talking about the need for foreign construction workers when the opposition MPs were talking about EPs holders. The example of the local office admin was just to show that even for more lowly skilled jobs there was a manpower crunch or lack of locals to employ in those years. There were just no Singaporeans to employ for jobs because the market was swept empty during the boom after 2008. When you can't even find a Singaporean office admin, how to find higher skilled Singaporean managers if the market is swept empty and near to "complete" full employment??? Why did companies resort to hire Filipinas or employees from other countries for such admin jobs after 2008? Because the market was swept empty with no locals available to do the jobs. On the other hand it is a fact for Singaporeans shying away for certain jobs, even in the customer service or retail services. Please refrain from putting up more biased word twisting of what I wrote/ never wrote. 3 hours ago, Guest Guest said: Again... this proves of a daydreamer speaking without evidences with statements such as "the Singaporeans were still in employ and I doubt any foreigners had replaced Singaporeans on jobs" ... There is no evidence to support or rebut my statement from your part. If it is just in your imagination, it doesn't make it to a fact. Repeating slogans are not any supporting evidence. With a lack of locals to be be employed, because the market is swept empty, how can foreigners who fill in the gaps, take away the jobs of locals and considering the near to full employment of all citizens? Explain! 3 hours ago, Guest Guest said: Again, more misleading statistics are being thrown here.To make my point short, sharp and sweet, I'd just use UAE as an example, where the unemployment rate is 2.58% when 83.7% of the country comprises of foreigners. What does this show? Low unemployment rate has never been any good indication as to whether foreigners are taking over the locals jobs or not. So, I hope nobody ever get misled into thinking that. This example clearly supports what I am saying. Foreigners cannot take over the jobs from locals in situations where there is an extremely low unemployment rate and a very high rate of Employment overall (which stands at 68% for Singapore). There are not sufficient UE Arabs to do the jobs. Therefore UEA had not other way but to import Foreigners to do the jobs to keep an economy running. Or do you really want to claim, that Foreigners are taking away the jobs of the local Arabs in UAE??? 4 hours ago, Guest Guest said: To use another example where the country went up in arms against the administration for allowing too many immigrants into the country: Germany. Germany has an unemployment rate of 3.1% with 14.9% of the population being foreigners. And for that, they lost about 8% votes, costing them a lot of seats in Parliament in 2017. If any country is to take any action to restrict immigration flow only when unemployment rate hit "5% - 10%" as per what this Guest jobs had said, the foreigners would be laughing all the way to the banks back home, and they are laughing at the host country for being the suckers whom they have been feeding off parasitically all the time. The host country would have been bed dry by then! So please do not believe in such words and read with lots of care and consideration. Germany has been going through more or less excellent economic development and suffering a manpower scarcity the past 5 years. It is running near to full employment. Such rates had been unseen for many years. The hostility of Germans against Foreigners is not from a background "Foreigners taking away the jobs of Germans", but due to a huge immigration in short time from people from very different cultural and religious backgrounds. For sure as well due to the immigrants eating into the social government spending (allowances for living, housing, transport) which is paid by the general (therefore overall German) taxpayers. This is the reason why the Germans have been voting for one more extreme right wing party and punishing the government coalition parties. The German fear the country cannot absorb and integrate those immigrants for very different social, cultural and religious backgrounds. Please, I never said the government will take any action or restrict immigration flow when the unemployment rate hits 5 - 10 %. Please do not include anything what I never said. You are putting words into my mouth I never said at all. I merely explained, if the unemployment rate had hit rates above 5%, then in such cases, you could start concluding Foreigners haven taken jobs of locals. But this has never been the case for Singapore in the past 25 years. The unemployment rate has never been at such higher levels. The article with the graduates who earn less than 2k shows that most probably the job creation in Singapore has not been sufficient to cater for degree holders to work in jobs in par with their education. Please note as per article the numbers stands at 3%. This is not a huge number for a country like Singapore. We are not aware of the circumstances of each individual. These employees could have just poor grades and employers did not hire them as there were others with better qualification. In the same it could result from not sufficient jobs being created to cater and employ all graduate degree holders. Many developed societies suffer in the last year the issue for having put too many graduates through the tertiary education as the market can absorb. And don't forget the overall economy in Singapore has not been doing very good the past 1 year due to various trade disputes and the extreme slowing down in China. Here a quote from the article that you cited yourself: The problem could also be industry-specific as the bulk of the companies with underemployed individuals (64 per cent) served mainly the domestic market. Some small- and medium-sized enterprises, for instance, may not be able to pay competitive wages. Ms Ling also questioned whether those underemployed were in jobs that required more generic, rather than specialised skills, or whether they were underemployed because of individual circumstances. Look at your words: Foreigners always seem to be "parasites" in your view. You are the one here misleading readers with your unsupported Anti Foreigner Statements and claiming Foreigners are taking away jobs of locals. You don't support your statements with any substantiated data or statistical backing. You are just repeating your slogans and nothing else. You never presented any substantiated backing to what you claim. Sorry. 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Guest Guest Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Guest jobs said: You never presented any substantiated backing to what you claim. Sorry. Neither have you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 Maybe you are having difficulties in reading . Or maybe you prefer to ignore the data and numbers I indicated to support what I wrote . Simply, my stated numbers support: There is a low probability of foreigners taking away jobs of locals in a near to full employment scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 6 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Maybe you are having difficulties in reading . Or maybe you prefer to ignore the data and numbers I indicated to support what I wrote . Simply, my stated numbers support: There is a low probability of foreigners taking away jobs of locals in a near to full employment scenario. The person who has difficulty reading is none other than you. Your supposed data and numbers which you have indicated has been debated to be irrelevant to the discussion on hand. You might be able to fool some common man-in-the-streets with such red herring, trying to distract others with irrelevant data. But sadly, this trick has been used way too many times by our own administration. You have tried using "low unemployment rate" to prove that the foreigners are not taking away jobs from Singaporeans. And I have shown you global statistics to prove otherwise, since countries, such as UAE and Germany, with extremely high foreigner-occupation status can still have "low unemployment rates". You tried arguing that 60,000 new jobs were created between 2015 and 2018, with 80% of the jobs going to the locals. But you cannot explain how these 60,000 jobs helped support the even larger numbers of fresh graduates who came out from the school in just the years 2017 and 2018 alone. So these 60,000 new jobs alone was not just unable to support the fresh graduates, 20% of the jobs even went to foreigners. An furthermore, the 4 cases reported by MOM was already undeniable evidence that the jobs were given to foreigners without even considering any Singaporeans. And when faced with this evidence, you tried to hide yourself in the corner by making this laughable claim that such an act is not considered "Taking away jobs from a Singaporean, since there was no Singaporean in that job in the first place". LOL! And when you were given the statistics and study to prove that the underemployment rate is a serious problem, you deny the problem by citing the "question" of an individual. So maybe, you might be able to read and understand your own words this time, if I am to repeat your own words back at you: "Maybe you are having difficulties in reading . Or maybe you prefer to ignore the data and numbers I indicated to support what I wrote ." "Is it due to a lack of intellectual abilities? Or is it because of your preconceived mindset?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 You are the one who declares the numbers presented to substantiate the matter as not relevant. This is your personal assessment. This has been brought up by you and nobody else. I didn't see any big debate from plenty of Members at BW who objected to the numbers and conclusions drawn from the data given. Your "global" statistics do not serve to support your claim and they do not even rebut the conclusions needed to be drawn from the public and available data on the Unemployment Rate. It is mostly your preferred strategy to discredit posts, substantiated statements, even such supported by data and numbers and post some sharp words to make the other look like he is misleading or wrong. You may fool the uneducated or lower educated common blue colour worker on the street, but probably not graduated and post graduated persons, who are able to verify the statements and numbers and who are able to think logic. Anyway, I did not argue "that 60,000 new jobs were created between 2015 and 2018, with 80% of the jobs going to the locals". This data had been revealed by the Minister himself. I m aware you would be happy if the data had shown 100% of the new jobs created would have gone to locals. But this is illusional. You fail to see with a manpower shortage, business cannot expand and grow if they cannot hire people doing the required jobs. And if there aren't sufficiently Singaporeans on hand, the economy can only grow with hiring Foreigners from abroad for those jobs where there are no available Singaporeans. You have been bringing in to the discussion the fresh graduates. As to government information, all fresh graduates had been absorbed to the labour market and in the year 2019 even in a shorter time than previously. You might have overseen but I gave an explanation why not all fresh graduates had been absorbed to the labour market. The overall job creation in Singapore was probably not sufficient or there is an oversupply of fresh graduates. But this has nothing to do with the relation of foreigner and locals. 12 hours ago, Guest Guest said: An furthermore, the 4 cases reported by MOM was already undeniable evidence that the jobs were given to foreigners without even considering any Singaporeans. And when faced with this evidence, you tried to hide yourself in the corner by making this laughable claim that such an act is not considered "Taking away jobs from a Singaporean, since there was no Singaporean in that job in the first place". LOL! You fail to understand my point: How can you ascertain for the jobs of the four companies having gone to Singaporeans? Do you have any knowledge or information if the Singaporeans had been better qualified for the jobs instead of the hired foreign employees? If yes, you must be a fortune teller. MOM does not interfere to the selection of employees. Even if the four companies had interviewed Singaporean applicants we do not have information or data whether the Singaporeans or any Singaporeans applying for those jobs had been selected and employed. How would you dare to say then "Foreigners had taken away jobs of Singaporeans in this scenario"? You can only come to any such conclusion if you are aware or certain for Singaporeans (who would have applied for these jobs) of having been better qualified for the job position. 12 hours ago, Guest Guest said: You have tried using "low unemployment rate" to prove that the foreigners are not taking away jobs from Singaporeans. And I have shown you global statistics to prove otherwise, since countries, such as UAE and Germany, with extremely high foreigner-occupation status can still have "low unemployment rates". Germany only has 13% foreigners from the total population. The numbers say only 40% of Foreigners are in the workforce. How is this a country with "high foreigner occupation" as you claim. Asylum seekers are not permitted to work. Besides that you omit, 80% of all Foreigners in Germany are EU-Nationals coming from countries of the European Union. There is a shortage of employees in Germany due to the better than expected past development of the economy in Germany. From the Foreigners only 40% are in the workforce. That amounts to 9.5% Foreigners in the total workforce in Germany are foreigners. Don't forget the vast majority are citizens of other European Union countries. Your global data does not prove anything otherwise. My main point has always been: In countries (such as Singapore) with near to full employment of the people fit to work, foreigners can't take away the jobs of locals, because the citizens fit for work are all already in employment. But it seems you simply tend to ignore this correlation. The phenomenon of graduates working in jobs not par to their education can be seen in many countries nowadays, where there is an oversupply of graduates and post-graduates and where all such persons intend to work in jobs requiring high qualifications, however not sufficient jobs are available for all those graduates. France, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Chile can give good examples. The reasons are various. In some countries there has not been any serious skills based selection and too many (even not sufficiently qualified) students pass the A-levels or in worse cases even the university graduation. What I try to explain is, more students should be rejected or selected out for taking the A-levels, as they are not really qualified for a university degree. But this a political thing. There has been a huge push in Europe for students to take up studies at universities. For France nearly 75% of students pass the A-levels. The job market cannot absorb the number of graduates and it produces too many university graduates. I don't have the exact numbers for Singapore, but it seems there are around 12,000 students that pass A levels per year. There is a chance for Singapore suffering the same fate already as many European countries on having an oversupply of students passing A Levels and university degrees. But it could be a temporary phenomenon. Surely, as the past years the influx of FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) despite being on a high level compared to other countries, has not been increasing on higher rates as before and in 2018 was even slowing down. Surely, this has an impact on the labour market. USD 2007 $40,882,250,000 2008 $7,964,387,000 2009 $32,039,620,000 2010 $35,407,190,000 2011 $31,900,200,000 2012 $20,480,430,000 2013 $45,278,830,000 2014 $52,477,490,000 2015 $45,223,210,000 2016 $39,781,950,000 2017 $43,696,000,000 2018 $36,330,730,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: You are the one who declares the numbers presented to substantiate the matter as not relevant. This is your personal assessment. This has been brought up by you and nobody else. I didn't see any big debate from plenty of Members at BW who objected to the numbers and conclusions drawn from the data given. Your "global" statistics do not serve to support your claim and they do not even rebut the conclusions needed to be drawn from the public and available data on the Unemployment Rate. And wasn't it YOU who declared that the numbers presented on low "unemployment rates" substantiate the matter as relevant? Isn't that YOUR personal assessment? Neither did I see any big debate from any of Members at BW who agreed to the numbers and conclusions drawn from the data given. You are merely looking for numbers to justify for your own presence here in Singapore, knowing full well that your presence here do not contribute even any benefits to the nations, at least not any additional benefits that another local can provide. 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: It is mostly your preferred strategy to discredit posts, substantiated statements, even such supported by data and numbers and post some sharp words to make the other look like he is misleading or wrong. You may fool the uneducated or lower educated common blue colour worker on the street, but probably not graduated and post graduated persons, who are able to verify the statements and numbers and who are able to think logic. It is your strategy throw in irrelevant data and numbers and repeat your misleading figure over and over again to make it sound as you have some basis of contention. It is you who is trying to fool yourself and others into believing in your non-existent value here. But sadly, the truth remains that you are only here because you are unable to find better jobs in your own country. You do not need a graduate or post-graduate degree to see what I have said is right. Anybody who can think logic will see it to be truthful. 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Anyway, I did not argue "that 60,000 new jobs were created between 2015 and 2018, with 80% of the jobs going to the locals". This data had been revealed by the Minister himself. I m aware you would be happy if the data had shown 100% of the new jobs created would have gone to locals. But this is illusional. You fail to see with a manpower shortage, business cannot expand and grow if they cannot hire people doing the required jobs. And if there aren't sufficiently Singaporeans on hand, the economy can only grow with hiring Foreigners from abroad for those jobs where there are no available Singaporeans. You have been bringing in to the discussion the fresh graduates. As to government information, all fresh graduates had been absorbed to the labour market and in the year 2019 even in a shorter time than previously. You might have overseen but I gave an explanation why not all fresh graduates had been absorbed to the labour market. The overall job creation in Singapore was probably not sufficient or there is an oversupply of fresh graduates. But this has nothing to do with the relation of foreigner and locals. And yes, the number was revealed by the Minister himself. And if those numbers does not even cover the needs for the fresh graduates, how can there be enough jobs to substantiate any new foreigners and even for locals to switch jobs in the first place?? I haven't even dug out the number of people who have been retrenched yet. 60,000 new jobs were not even enough to provide the new graduates with employment, and you want to talk about the lack of manpower limiting on business "expansion"??? There goes your logic, doesn't it? Hahahahahaha ... 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Germany only has 13% foreigners from the total population. The numbers say only 40% of Foreigners are in the workforce. How is this a country with "high foreigner occupation" as you claim. Asylum seekers are not permitted to work. Besides that you omit, 80% of all Foreigners in Germany are EU-Nationals coming from countries of the European Union. There is a shortage of employees in Germany due to the better than expected past development of the economy in Germany. From the Foreigners only 40% are in the workforce. That amounts to 9.5% Foreigners in the total workforce in Germany are foreigners. Don't forget the vast majority are citizens of other European Union countries. Your global data does not prove anything otherwise. Wow.... Germany only has " 13% foreigners from the total population" and "That amounts to 9.5% Foreigners in the total workforce in Germany"? And with that type of figures, the main ruling party lost 8% of swing votes in Germany in 2017?? Then it makes me wonder how many swing votes should any ruling party lose, if there are 50% of foreigners in the total population, and 30% foreigners in the total workforce. Numbers of Total Foreign Workforce (excluding FDWs) is 1,143,800 as per the data here https://www.mom.gov.sg/documents-and-publications/foreign-workforce-numbers and employment figures are 3,759,700 as of the data here https://www.singstat.gov.sg/find-data/search-by-theme/economy/labour-employment-wages-and-productivity/latest-data 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: The phenomenon of graduates working in jobs not par to their education can be seen in many countries nowadays, where there is an oversupply of graduates and post-graduates and where all such persons intend to work in jobs requiring high qualifications, however not sufficient jobs are available for all those graduates. France, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Chile can give good examples. The reasons are various. In some countries there has not been any serious skills based selection and too many (even not sufficiently qualified) students pass the A-levels or in worse cases even the university graduation. What I try to explain is, more students should be rejected or selected out for taking the A-levels, as they are not really qualified for a university degree. But this a political thing. There has been a huge push in Europe for students to take up studies at universities. For France nearly 75% of students pass the A-levels. The job market cannot absorb the number of graduates and it produces too many university graduates. I don't have the exact numbers for Singapore, but it seems there are around 12,000 students that pass A levels per year. There is a chance for Singapore suffering the same fate already as many European countries on having an oversupply of students passing A Levels and university degrees. But it could be a temporary phenomenon. OMG ... Excuse me, what is this "more students should be rejected or selected out for taking the A-levels, as they are not really qualified for a university degree."??? Are you trying to dumb down the entire nation so that foreign trash like you can come work here? Nice try, but go fuck off!! 13 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Surely, as the past years the influx of FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) despite being on a high level compared to other countries, has not been increasing on higher rates as before and in 2018 was even slowing down. Surely, this has an impact on the labour market. "Surely" again?? More irrelevant data thrown out to all of us here again? Where is the link this time? Don't make us guess. Show us the explicit and direct correlation this time! It's pointless to continue this debate, when you are just wasting time trying to lead us round and round in circles, and throwing out irrelevant misleading data which get us nowhere. What's the next figure you want to throw out? Foreign trash like you are nothing more than time wasters who do nothing but hurt the productivity of this entire country. I have done enough to humor myself in this debate to discredit foreign trash like you. I can only hope general members of the BW community is now aware of the common lies that foreign trash use to justify their own redundant existence here. Adieus, baby! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jobs Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 Need to repeat again: It is futile to discuss anything with you. You are just following your same pattern as usual in discussions. When you run out of arguments, or have been successfully rebutted, have no further substance to add or anything to support your points, then you simply just resort to insults and trolling. This is always what you do. What you are doing is not discussing or disputing about topics. I am not the concern of the discussion. Why do you bring me in? Most of your responses are mere insults on my person (without even knowing who I am and what I do) but my personal situation is not the topic here. Does it in any way support your line of arguments? No not at all. You have nothing to rebut the numbers and data but just call them not related to the matter. It seems that you fail to see the correlation of a country under near to full employment and a country where the total citizen workforce (fit for work) is employed and the amount of Foreigners in the workforce. Because exactly this is what the unemployment data and workforce data says about Singapore. And this is exactly the dilemma you are in: The data clearly supports my line or arguments (but unfortunately not yours). Singapore is in a situation close to full employment. Why should I pull out numbers to justify my presence here, if this is not the topic. The topic is that Foreigners are not taking away jobs of Singaporeans in Singapore. I gave sufficient data and input, as to why this is a fact and the data is quite supportive to what I raised and pointed out. There is nothing misleading but you are merely trying to convince others without having any valuable data on hand to discredit my line of arguments. And once you run into a dead end, you simply just resort to insulting and name calling. Very persuasive. So far you have presented nothing substantial to rebut my points. The examples for UAE and Germany did not support your line of argument but you even contradicted yourself. Then you throw in fresh graduates who work in workplaces which seem not in par with their education. This was just an unnecessary side track, which did not support your argument either. It was just a distraction because you don't have anything to rebut on my arguments. The workforce must fit into the manpower requirements of a country. What to do if the students studied on grades or subjects that are no longer in high demand or if their results are bad and companies don't hire them? However, this is irrelevant, because the data given shows that even these fresh graduates had been absorbed by the labour market in Singapore in a quite fast pace. Otherwise, as I had pointed out rightly earlier, the unemployment rate should be significantly higher than what it is now. But it isn't. Singapore has been building jobs on FDI inflows to the country. If you can't see this or aren't aware of this, then sorry, and it reflects that you don't understand anything about economy. And this lack of economic understanding and knowledge of yours exactly evidences: You are only uttering unsubstantiated (anti foreigner) slogans. Nothing else. What products does Singapore have? What international brands does Singapore have? Is there anything major that had been developed, engineered, manufactured, invented by Singaporeans in Singapore and which is a highly demanded product/ service overseas? Any such products are negligible. Where did the job creation originate from? Why is Singapore keen on attracting FDI to Singapore? To receive nice figures in the economic sheets??? Or to continue to provide sufficient jobs for locals in a growth scenario? By the way, the numbers of 60,000 jobs created does not say much, because you don't have the number of people in the workforce who went into retirement , took jobs overseas, taking a break, or left the workforce due to other reasons. How would you then know whether the graduates got jobs or not? The statistics indicate for fresh graduates having entered the job market within 3 - 6 months. Anyway, it seems that the people who were retrenched in 2019 came quite quickly into new jobs and were absorbed into the labour force. Your numbers for the retrenchments in 2019 are irrelevant for the share of foreigners working here and locals. All the existing and public data points to this. I assume plenty of Singaporeans and BW readers had a big laugh about your new claim "foreigners only hurting the productivity of Singapore" in your last sentence of the post above. You are only repeating your slogans and only because the data does (unfortunately,) not fit into your preconceived point of view. It is so obvious to see from your posts: You are not having any clue at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Guest jobs said: Need to repeat again: It is futile to discuss anything with you. You are just following your same pattern as usual in discussions. When you run out of arguments, or have been successfully rebutted, have no further substance to add or anything to support your points, then you simply just resort to insults and trolling. This is always what you do. What you are doing is not discussing or disputing about topics. I am not the concern of the discussion. Why do you bring me in? Most of your responses are mere insults on my person (without even knowing who I am and what I do) but my personal situation is not the topic here. Does it in any way support your line of arguments? No not at all. You have nothing to rebut the numbers and data but just call them not related to the matter. It seems that you fail to see the correlation of a country under near to full employment and a country where the total citizen workforce (fit for work) is employed and the amount of Foreigners in the workforce. Because exactly this is what the unemployment data and workforce data says about Singapore. And this is exactly the dilemma you are in: The data clearly supports my line or arguments (but unfortunately not yours). Singapore is in a situation close to full employment. Why should I pull out numbers to justify my presence here, if this is not the topic. The topic is that Foreigners are not taking away jobs of Singaporeans in Singapore. I gave sufficient data and input, as to why this is a fact and the data is quite supportive to what I raised and pointed out. There is nothing misleading but you are merely trying to convince others without having any valuable data on hand to discredit my line of arguments. And once you run into a dead end, you simply just resort to insulting and name calling. Very persuasive. So far you have presented nothing substantial to rebut my points. The examples for UAE and Germany did not support your line of argument but you even contradicted yourself. Then you throw in fresh graduates who work in workplaces which seem not in par with their education. This was just an unnecessary side track, which did not support your argument either. It was just a distraction because you don't have anything to rebut on my arguments. The workforce must fit into the manpower requirements of a country. What to do if the students studied on grades or subjects that are no longer in high demand or if their results are bad and companies don't hire them? However, this is irrelevant, because the data given shows that even these fresh graduates had been absorbed by the labour market in Singapore in a quite fast pace. Otherwise, as I had pointed out rightly earlier, the unemployment rate should be significantly higher than what it is now. But it isn't. Singapore has been building jobs on FDI inflows to the country. If you can't see this or aren't aware of this, then sorry, and it reflects that you don't understand anything about economy. And this lack of economic understanding and knowledge of yours exactly evidences: You are only uttering unsubstantiated (anti foreigner) slogans. Nothing else. What products does Singapore have? What international brands does Singapore have? Is there anything major that had been developed, engineered, manufactured, invented by Singaporeans in Singapore and which is a highly demanded product/ service overseas? Any such products are negligible. Where did the job creation originate from? Why is Singapore keen on attracting FDI to Singapore? To receive nice figures in the economic sheets??? Or to continue to provide sufficient jobs for locals in a growth scenario? By the way, the numbers of 60,000 jobs created does not say much, because you don't have the number of people in the workforce who went into retirement , took jobs overseas, taking a break, or left the workforce due to other reasons. How would you then know whether the graduates got jobs or not? The statistics indicate for fresh graduates having entered the job market within 3 - 6 months. Anyway, it seems that the people who were retrenched in 2019 came quite quickly into new jobs and were absorbed into the labour force. Your numbers for the retrenchments in 2019 are irrelevant for the share of foreigners working here and locals. All the existing and public data points to this. I assume plenty of Singaporeans and BW readers had a big laugh about your new claim "foreigners only hurting the productivity of Singapore" in your last sentence of the post above. You are only repeating your slogans and only because the data does (unfortunately,) not fit into your preconceived point of view. It is so obvious to see from your posts: You are not having any clue at all. Long story short, you have already been rebutted thoroughly, and you have nothing left to answer, except to play the victim card and seeking support from other BW members. Sadly, nobody is taking your bait. When you run out of arguments, or have been successfully rebutted, have no further substance to add or anything to support your points, then you simply just resort to throwing out more misleading figures. This is almost like telling the world that Singapore is one of the richest nation in the world based on GDP per cap, while deliberately ignoring and distracting other people from all the other more important factors such as Singapore having one of the highest rich-poor gap in the world. This is always what you do: ignoring and distracting other people from all the other more important factors. All my arguments have already been concisely summarized one of the post above. You are the one who is repeating your slogans and only because the data does (unfortunately) not fit into your preconceived point of view. You yourself are the one trying to convince others without having any valuable data. Oh..let me end this post repeating one more thing: what is this "more students should be rejected or selected out for taking the A-levels, as they are not really qualified for a university degree."??? Are you trying to dumb down the entire nation so that foreign trash like you can come work here? Nice try, but go fuck off!! If this is the type of foreign talent caliber you are feigning to be, you are a true-to-the-core foreign trash! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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