Is Sauna Legal? + Local Sauna Raided? (Compiled)

[Tight Ass]

Very discouraging. Actually i was pondering of going to check out some elitist dick at the sauna. The above incident doesn't sound good to an elistist bottom like me. What if the "mata" accidentally see my naked tight peachy ass and then order to have me arrested. I can't imagine what will happen next or the papers will start printing pictures the next day

[grumpybaker]

I was at Raw when the 'raid' happened. I wont go as far as to call it a 'raid', more like a look-see look-see. It certainly didnt feel like a raid at all that Friday night at Raw.

There you have it, ED says it all.

One month ago some officers were at DHC doing a routine check. They basically went thru motion, walk one round, check the masseurs's pass, joked to the management and left. I'm sure very few people knew because it happened in the day time, and nothing happened. It seemed like a big deal with OS because Sam was in argument with the police. If that didn't happen, the police would probably "look see' then leave.

Don't forget they have a job to do too, regardless of whether it's a straight or gay establishment. I think alot of people read too much into the whole incident and gahmen's anti-gay comments start to flow. The gahmen knows about gay saunas, the police definitely knows. If they're so anti-gay, then these saunas would have their licenses revoked donkey years ago.

We're living in a time where we have more freedom compared to 10, 20 years ago. Yes it's still not sufficient, but at least it's slowly getting better. Imagine yourself living the life of the previous generation of gays, then you'll know that you're more lucky than them.

OF course the next generation of gays will be more blessed, as whatever laws and regulations will change, that's a given.

My point is, don't make a mountain out of an ant hill.

Just my one-and-a-half-cents, don't start attacking me har.

TA, the only thing to worry if the "mata" see your ass is that the poor OS staffs would have to clean up their puke.

Edited April 28, 2008 by grumpybaker

[Guest gammaguy]

If they're so anti-gay, then these saunas would have their licenses revoked donkey years ago.

We're living in a time where we have more freedom compared to 10, 20 years ago. Yes it's still not sufficient, but at least it's slowly getting better. Imagine yourself living the life of the previous generation of gays, then you'll know that you're more lucky than them.

OF course the next generation of gays will be more blessed, as whatever laws and regulations will change, that's a given.

My point is, don't make a mountain out of an ant hill.

Just my one-and-a-half-cents, don't start attacking me har.

TA, the only thing to worry if the "mata" see your ass is that the poor OS staffs would have to clean up their puke.

You are exactly the kind of aj the govt is hoping to see. Give you some freedom and better be content with that. But, my question then is do you see yourself as being wrong for being gay in the first place? Why should i even see it as an improvement when there is nothing wrong about homosexuality right from the start?

Yes i must see from a realistic point of view. Well, the reality is we ajs, have been made to think we have chosen the wrong side and they, the govt has been forgiving. Ha! what a joke.

[Guest Agares]

There you have it, ED says it all.

One month ago some officers were at DHC doing a routine check. They basically went thru motion, walk one round, check the masseurs's pass, joked to the management and left. I'm sure very few people knew because it happened in the day time, and nothing happened. It seemed like a big deal with OS because Sam was in argument with the police. If that didn't happen, the police would probably "look see' then leave.

Don't forget they have a job to do too, regardless of whether it's a straight or gay establishment. I think alot of people read too much into the whole incident and gahmen's anti-gay comments start to flow. The gahmen knows about gay saunas, the police definitely knows. If they're so anti-gay, then these saunas would have their licenses revoked donkey years ago.

We're living in a time where we have more freedom compared to 10, 20 years ago. Yes it's still not sufficient, but at least it's slowly getting better. Imagine yourself living the life of the previous generation of gays, then you'll know that you're more lucky than them.

OF course the next generation of gays will be more blessed, as whatever laws and regulations will change, that's a given.

My point is, don't make a mountain out of an ant hill.

Just my one-and-a-half-cents, don't start attacking me har.

TA, the only thing to worry if the "mata" see your ass is that the poor OS staffs would have to clean up their puke.

How would the next generation have better days, if you feel content in this manner and assume there was no element of harrassment? So it is wrong for other gays to investigate and probe? And what happened at Diamond a month ago, is that by divine proclaimation the yardstick of evaluation for all future raids?

Why RAID, in the first place, turn off water and all that. Why not INSPECTION? Or CHECK? What was it all about? Lots of people seem not to notice that difference. It wasn't a routine check. You don't break into places like that for a check. This was a hostile raid.

And don't assume the black and white theory of "why got gay sauna if government anti gay." Because the sauna very obviously serve the purpose of preventing opening street cruising. In the exact same manner as Geylang preventing uncontrolled soliciting. Tolerating this as a necessary evil doesn't mean the authorities cannot have their sporadic fun and show in "disturbing" these places.

Truly, if you don't have the finer details, it's quite laughable to assume (again) others are making mountains out of molehills.

[Guest come on]

Hey, do you know what a real raid is? If the police means business, they would have stormed into the building, round up all the 'suspect', search the whole premises, take down all the particulars and round all of them off in a police van. That is raid. But that has not happened.

I think the police turned off the water supply at OS precisely because in the past, Sam had been combative, uncooperative, defiant. They certainly didnt turn off the water supply at Raw. Why??? I think shouting at the police will not do Sam, OS or its clients any good at all.

[Guest Agares]

Hey, do you know what a real raid is? If the police means business, they would have stormed into the building, round up all the 'suspect', search the whole premises, take down all the particulars and round all of them off in a police van. That is raid. But that has not happened.

I think the police turned off the water supply at OS precisely because in the past, Sam had been combative, uncooperative, defiant. They certainly didnt turn off the water supply at Raw. Why??? I think shouting at the police will not do Sam, OS or its clients any good at all.

Firstly, I think you need to draw the difference between a raid, and an arrest. If nothing is found, you can't arrest. And if you want to arrest, then be prepared for the flood of paperwork and logistics thereafter. Don't bring up that nonsense on "how all could be arrested for 377a etc etc." "They have the power to arrest you for anything." Because these arguments are broad and mythical. And because you could still conduct harrassment without actually making an arrest. That's how you keep it OFF RECORD, and get the chance to have fun again.

You may also like to note that the water, as described, offed before the enter?

And perhaps you could explain why the need to off the water in more clarity? Because the Police assumed Sam would resist? Note, he shouted at the police AFTER the forced entry and water shutting.

Maybe more importantly before you blame this entire thing on Sam, notice how One Seven has actually been operating there for quite a number of years. It has been in the same spot, suffered a good deal of raids. And yet it's still there. Still Sam. If he's the unreasonable and silly angmo some painted him to be, you think he would have lasted a year? Please give some though to why he resisted so violently.

Lastly, please give some thought too that if you were one day involved in such a thing, how would you truly feel and react.

[grumpybaker]

Hey, do you know what a real raid is? If the police means business, they would have stormed into the building, round up all the 'suspect', search the whole premises, take down all the particulars and round all of them off in a police van. That is raid. But that has not happened.

Thank you Come On.

Gamma guy, what kind of gay is that that the gahmen like to see? Obedient? Yes-man? Don't twist it into something it's not.

Does the gahmen want to see an obedient straight man?

There is nothing wrong with me, or anybody else being gay. But the fact remains that we are living in these times and in this particular society. Where did I say there is anything wrong being gay?

Agares, I already said it was a routine check in DHC. THis will happen in other establishments too, not necessary a gay one. And why would you guys insist it's a Raid? Think, over the past few years more and more gay saunas open, isn't it better than before? BUT sadly you guys don't think we have more freedom compared to before. You have to insist that there are other agendas to it. The gahmen is already opening up, accept it and be grateful. It'll take a long time for our lifestyles to be more free. I never said it's enough. Sometimes I feel sad to think that in 20 years, when our society is most likely to be more opened, I won't get to enjoy the freedom. But there's nothing I can do, can I? Btw, what other finer details are there?

Guys, I'm not supporting the gahmen you know. I'm just pointing out that in this case, what happened in OS was just an incident where such strong feelings are not warranted. Don't make everything into anti-gay or denying gay rights. I still think it's a mountain out of molehills.

[Guest Agares]

Thank you Come On.

Gamma guy, what kind of gay is that that the gahmen like to see? Obedient? Yes-man? Don't twist it into something it's not.

Does the gahmen want to see an obedient straight man?

There is nothing wrong with me, or anybody else being gay. But the fact remains that we are living in these times and in this particular society. Where did I say there is anything wrong being gay?

Agares, I already said it was a routine check in DHC. THis will happen in other establishments too, not necessary a gay one. And why would you guys insist it's a Raid? Think, over the past few years more and more gay saunas open, isn't it better than before? BUT sadly you guys don't think we have more freedom compared to before. You have to insist that there are other agendas to it. The gahmen is already opening up, accept it and be grateful. It'll take a long time for our lifestyles to be more free. I never said it's enough. Sometimes I feel sad to think that in 20 years, when our society is most likely to be more opened, I won't get to enjoy the freedom. But there's nothing I can do, can I? Btw, what other finer details are there?

Guys, I'm not supporting the gahmen you know. I'm just pointing out that in this case, what happened in OS was just an incident where such strong feelings are not warranted. Don't make everything into anti-gay or denying gay rights. I still think it's a mountain out of molehills.

Because you are only assuming it's a routine check. And that's all it is that you're doing. You take one singular other incident, drawn inspiration from it as the master blueplan, and state this is just a routine check. What if, it's not? Would you be there to lend a hand to the victims if it's not a routine check?

Not sure about others here, allowing a sauna is not acceptance and tolerance. It's more for consolidating the undesirables in a spot where you can locate easily. Stopping all these blaming and name calling and constant insult from the media would be increased tolerance and acceptance.

[grumpybaker]

If like you said, why not an INSPECTION or CHECK, do you think it makes any difference?

Would Sam still be co-operative? YOU are assuming it's a RAID.

If you want to get technical, what I heard is that the police were refused entrance, THEN the water was offed. And Sam got arrested by getting physical with one officer. This is what my friend who was there told me, not I assume. Read thru the whole thread, there are checks going on everywhere, not just gay saunas.

Whether it's a routine check or not, whether there are victims or not, would YOU be there to lend a hand? What nonsense?

You take this incident, out of whatever master plan only you know and magnified it into something it's not

And what's that crap about saunas being allowed for consolidating the undesirables in a spot ? Are you suggesting that there shouldn't be gay saunas at all?

Now that gay saunas are "allowed", you have to make it into another gahmen agenda. Bigger mountain.

Edited April 28, 2008 by grumpybaker

[Guest Agares]

If like you said, why not an INSPECTION or CHECK, do you think it makes any difference?

Would Sam still be co-operative? YOU are assuming it's a RAID.

If you want to get technical, what I heard is that the police were refused entrance, THEN the water was offed. And Sam got arrested by getting physical with one officer. This is what my friend who was there told me, not I assume. Read thru the whole thread, there are checks going on everywhere, not just gay saunas.

Whether it's a routine check or not, whether there are victims or not, would YOU be there to lend a hand? What nonsense?

You take this incident, out of whatever master plan only you know and magnified it into something it's not.

Nonsense naturally to you because you assume there cannot be a possibility of victimization? In the same way that you claim I am magnifying this, you are also focusing only on certain details to forcefully insist it's just a harmless check. So whatever happens, however it was conducted, we need to suck it up because it happening elsewhere too.

People kill a lot of other people in a lot of other places. Why don't we start doing that too. It's easy to brush aside a lot of things because it's just talk and writing. After all, if people gets jailed or outted to their families, you wouldn't really know, right.

Oh, but I guess you are merely going to insist that's paranoia.

[grumpybaker]

Yes, you're right.

You are paranoid.

[Guest Agares]

Yes, you're right.

You are paranoid.

Rather paranoia than complacent and caught offguard, AGAIN.

Teachings from the old man.

[Ferrari]

Very discouraging. Actually i was pondering of going to check out some elitist dick at the sauna. The above incident doesn't sound good to an elistist bottom like me. What if the "mata" accidentally see my naked tight peachy ass and then order to have me arrested. I can't imagine what will happen next or the papers will start printing pictures the next day

If only the mata sees your peachy tight ass with awe, such event would have not happened. Stop bragging your ass and let your ass freeze the police.

[Guest Newie]

They maybe searching for the fugitive Mas Selamat Bin Kastari :whistle:

[oralb]

i have said this before (during the last sauna raid incidents) and would like to take the opportunity to say it again.

If you are a sauna patron, and realise that the lights are on and the music off, for your own sake, STOP whatever you are doing (even when you are in the edge of cumming with the perfect man of your life) wrap a towel (if there is) and gets out of the private room.

Wait at a common area for further instructions

In the event if the authority ask for your particulars, do so calmly

Know your rights, you can question the person checking if he is in his plain cloths, you can request for his identification before submitting your's. Whatever it is, do it in a non-hostile manner.

Even if it is a skin night (no towels) in the sauna, they should not arrest any one naked as the sauna is a private property.

[Guest come on]

Aiyo Agares, you are so full of hot air lah. Talk only. People just conducting a routine check and you have to cry murder. What a laugh! Let me ask you this question- if you were there that night at OS, would you honestly stand beside Sam and shout back at the police? If it is an affirmative yes from you, then I salute you. But I can bet my last dollar you would most likely hide your tail between your legs and cant wish to get out of there. I am a fairly regular customer at OS (I go there once a month) and I'd really hate to be a witness (if I were there) to that sort of I-can-shout-louder-than-you argument and prolonged resistance put up by Sam that night. Cant he just let the police do their job and get it over with? Unless he is trying to conceal something. Yes, Sam has been around for a while but dont be surprised if next time his sauna license is up for renewal, it would get rejected. The loser would be Sam.

On a final note, do you know that once the police managed to get into the sauna, the remaining customers have to stand by their lockers for a police search? So stop and think for a moment why that had to happened. It certainly didnt happen at Raw. In the end, the customers suffered the final humiliation.

[Guest another]

ahhh, what rights???

Know your rights, you can question the person checking if he is in his plain cloths, you can request for his identification before submitting your's. Whatever it is, do it in a non-hostile manner.

[Guest Agares]

Aiyo Agares, you are so full of hot air lah. Talk only. People just conducting a routine check and you have to cry murder. What a laugh! Let me ask you this question- if you were there that night at OS, would you honestly stand beside Sam and shout back at the police? If it is an affirmative yes from you, then I salute you. But I can bet my last dollar you would most likely hide your tail between your legs and cant wish to get out of there. I am a fairly regular customer at OS (I go there once a month) and I'd really hate to be a witness (if I were there) to that sort of I-can-shout-louder-than-you argument and prolonged resistance put up by Sam that night. Cant he just let the police do their job and get it over with? Unless he is trying to conceal something. Yes, Sam has been around for a while but dont be surprised if next time his sauna license is up for renewal, it would get rejected. The loser would be Sam.

On a final note, do you know that once the police managed to get into the sauna, the remaining customers have to stand by their lockers for a police search? So stop and think for a moment why that had to happened. It certainly didnt happen at Raw. In the end, the customers suffered the final humiliation.

So the group that went into Raw was exactly same group as the 1-7 troup? And in case you still don't notice, the thing he was trying to conceal, was patrons like you.

[GachiMuchi]

The "raid" had happened and it's water under the bridge.

It is obvious there are the "pro gay rights" (Agares) and the "pro peaceful existence" group. The debate can go on and on, but unless you guys are slugging it out on TV like "The Arena"; there will be no prize for the winner.

[Guest come on]

Yes, Agares, it is the same group of police officers that 'raided' the two sauna that night. And, hey, did we need to be 'concealed' that long. I heard that Sam put up a resistance for more than half an hour. Surely ten minutes is more than enough for us to get decent. Anyway, I dont wish to dwell on this anymore. I wish Sam a quick recovery and hope that, in future, he would be a little more tactful with the police. Shouting at an officer of law will not help to advance our gay rights a bit at all.

[Guest sammy]

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/messag...mp;msg=175660.1

[Guest iwasthere]

Anyone was at Raw the same night? Keen to share your experiences?

Yes i was there when it all happen and i tell you that they did ask for particulars for all those who were slow to exit.

[erection day]

er.... you mean OS. I was at Raw that night and was never asked, as were many others that night, for particulars.

[Guest The Guest]

the raid was conducted w/o check to warn u guys that they know what u guys are doing....

[DragonRider]

the raid was conducted w/o check to warn u guys that they know what u guys are doing....

You are not saying anything new - one would be very very surprised if they already didn't know what takes place in these saunas. One would be mistaken to think the authorities issued the operating licenses to these saunas in ignorance. That said, it is therefore puzzling why they came to do these checks? It could have been any of the following reasons:

*someone squealed on the XXX DVDs?

*Or that some were using substances that they shouldn't be using?

*Or, the landlord complained so that Sam will give up the place?

*Or, by jealous competitors?

*Or self-righteous neighbours?

*Or, these blokes just want to give PLUs a hard time - for fun?

And most interestingly, it cannot be due to someone forgetting to send the "lai see" on time because Sg is so squeaky-clean and un-corrupt. (But I have been told that the saunas in Thailand, Malaysia and Taiwan have to grease palms to stay open month after month. So don't take these overseas places for granted when you visit them, the management have a very hard time making some pocket money.)

[Guest guest]

So the group that went into Raw was exactly same group as the 1-7 troup? And in case you still don't notice, the thing he was trying to conceal, was patrons like you.

Don't waste your time on ungrateful souls like that. To think that he claims he's a regular, and yet have no concerns for the people that provided him his "fun". Or was it because he paid for it? I suppose that makes him the king. What a has become of this world?

[jazz]

What own spaces are you talking about? So, according to you a police has the right to go to any places to search without a warrant? Going by your warped logic, even if the police were to enter by force into your house in the middle of the night, you would still think they did the right thing i guess.

I am sure the police would have a valid reason (covered under the Singapore Statues) that allows them to enter a premise WITHOUT a warrant before doing so. The wouldn't just force their way into your home w/o a valid reason.

[jazz]

... ... ...

Know your rights, you can question the person checking if he is in his plain cloths, you can request for his identification before submitting your's. Whatever it is, do it in a non-hostile manner.

Even if it is a skin night (no towels) in the sauna, they should not arrest any one naked as the sauna is a private property.

you are right! :clap:

[jason]

Wonder why policeWOMEN were involved in the raid ??????????????????

[TopChinese]

Wonder why policeWOMEN were involved in the raid ??????????????????

Some gays may not be comfortable to be strip searched by a hunky dominant man in blue?

Edited May 3, 2008 by TopChinese

[zw11]

Some gays may not be comfortable to be strip searched by a hunky dominant man in blue?

Not me... Do me, do me!!!

[Tight Ass]

You are not saying anything new - one would be very very surprised if they already didn't know what takes place in these saunas. One would be mistaken to think the authorities issued the operating licenses to these saunas in ignorance. That said, it is therefore puzzling why they came to do these checks? It could have been any of the following reasons:

*someone squealed on the XXX DVDs?

*Or that some were using substances that they shouldn't be using?

*Or, the landlord complained so that Sam will give up the place?

*Or, by jealous competitors?

*Or self-righteous neighbours?

*Or, these blokes just want to give PLUs a hard time - for fun?

And most interestingly, it cannot be due to someone forgetting to send the "lai see" on time because Sg is so squeaky-clean and un-corrupt. (But I have been told that the saunas in Thailand, Malaysia and Taiwan have to grease palms to stay open month after month. So don't take these overseas places for granted when you visit them, the management have a very hard time making some pocket money.)

Not quite complete. According to some reliable source, they were there to search for tight ass. So what was done cannot be undone. Let's close rank and move on.

[metalmickey]

I am sure the police would have a valid reason (covered under the Singapore Statues) that allows them to enter a premise WITHOUT a warrant before doing so. The wouldn't just force their way into your home w/o a valid reason.

I for one, beg to disagree. I believe our police here are given too much power and authority (authority that they don't really have in many cases) when it comes to issues of entering private property without a valid reason or even a valid warrant for search and seizure and/or arrest. I remember reading a true account of ISD agents arriving at a private citizen's home at some ungodly hour and (under the pretense of being immigration officers) giving the homeowners some false "valid" reason like needing to check their home for illegal immigrants, and then proceed to enter the premises only after one of the occupants allowed them in under the misled notion that they were "immigration officers." Once allowed in, these agents identified themselves as ISD agents and proceeded to announce that they were there to arrest a member of the residing family under the ISA, without producing any legal warrant of arrest or any relevant legal document of any sort whatsoever.

Now, this kind of deceptive behaviour on the part of our so-called police begs several questions. Firstly, why do they have to resort to deception in order to gain the resident's consent to enter into the resident's home, if they had a supposedly valid reason to enter the residence in the first place? Secondly, if they really had a valid warrant of arrest for a particular person that they knew to be present in the place they wanted to gain entry into, why would they have to resort to deceiving the residents of the dwelling into letting them enter their home in the first place? I think the most probable answer to the first question is that they know that if they informed the residents that they were ISD agents and that they were there to arrest a particular family member present in that particular home at that time, they would most likely meet with resistence from the residents or occupants of the home in that the occupants would just simply refuse them entry. Such a refusal to let the police enter a private property is completely within the rights of the residents to do so, and the police or ISD or whatever will be powerless to do anything about it simply because they, the police, CANNOT break or enter into a private property WITHOUT THE CONSENT of the legal resident/owner/s of the private property, or without a VALID LEGAL WARRANT of search, seizure and/or arrest. All of this is enshrined in our law! In answer to the second question, as to why the police could not produce a warrant and had to resort to deceiving the residents in order to gain entry, it was simply because they never had a valid legal warrant of arrest for the particular person in the first place!

If I know the law correctly, by rights, the police are prohibited from breaking or entering into a private property unless they have a valid legal warrant or (in the absence of a warrant) the explicit consent of the legal resident of the private property to do so. So, regardless of whether they have a "valid reason" (or any other reason which they can use to justify their cause, no matter how dubious) for wanting to enter a particular private residence, by rights and by law, so long as they cannot obtain a legal warrant or, in the absence of such a warrant, they are refused entry by the legal resident of a particular private residentce they are targeting to enter, than they have no power or right or authority at all to force their way into such a private property in order to carry out their mission or cause. Because if anyone, regardless of whether they are civilians or police, resorts to entering a private property without due legal permission, then they would be violating two fundamental human rights - that of the inter-related personal right to protection of personal property, and the personal right to self-preservation.

If the police chooses to act in such a manner prejudicial to these rights, then you really can't say that they are protecting or respecting the rights of the citizens, whose rights they have sworn to protect and uphold, don't you think?

Edited May 6, 2008 by metalmickey

[Guest guest]

If I know the law correctly, by rights, the police are prohibited from breaking or entering into a private property unless they have a valid legal warrant or (in the absence of a warrant) the explicit consent of the legal resident of the private property to do so. So, regardless of whether they have a "valid reason" (or any other reason which they can use to justify their cause, no matter how dubious) for wanting to enter a particular private residence, by rights and by law, so long as they cannot obtain a legal warrant or, in the absence of such a warrant, they are refused entry by the legal resident of a particular private residentce they are targeting to enter, than they have no power or right or authority at all to force their way into such a private property in order to carry out their mission or cause. Because if anyone, regardless of whether they are civilians or police, resorts to entering a private property without due legal permission, then they would be violating two fundamental human rights - that of the inter-related personal right to protection of personal property, and the personal right to self-preservation.

Thanks for your sharing. One question: is it true that in the case where a police is of a certain rank and above, he does not need a search warrant to have the right to enter private property?

This has been told to us in Trevvy forum (on one seven case).

[Guest Guest]

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/05/03/hom...rom-the-police/

Homophobia Part 2: Under attack from the police

Posted by theonlinecitizen on May 3, 2008

Ng Yi-Sheng

In my last article, I mentioned that two things had happened recently that made me shocked and angry at the Singapore government. The first was MDA’s imposition of a fine on Mediacorp for showing a wholesome gay family on TV, a case credibly reported by official news sources. The second is a rather more sordid affair, receiving only underground coverage thus far.

Last Friday, 25 April 2008, there was a police raid at a gay sauna named One Seven. Though none of the clients were arrested, the 74 year-old owner, Sam was injured by the supervising officer and arrested and jailed overnight for allegedly having assaulted the officer, a charge that he denies. No explanation was given for the raid – on being asked, the officers refused to produce a warrant and simply repeated over and over again that they were conducting a “spot check”.

This is the first time this has happened to a sauna here since 2001. I’d been led to believe that such raids were things of the past, like gay club raids or entrapment in cruising spots, back before the government reaffirmed that they wouldn’t prosecute anyone based on Section 377A. But now I’m scared that this recent raid represents a new backlash against gay institutions. The bad old days of police harassment might be back.

What the hell happened?

I’ve read several online accounts of the sauna raid on One Seven that happened on Friday, 25 April. A few conflicting details have come up, and I’m unsure of the accuracy and objectivity of reports, but here’s my potentially-flawed reconstruction of what happened that evening. (To refer to the sources I’ve used, please look here. Anyone with further details or clarification is welcome to post below.)

Around 8pm, a team of plain-clothes officers from the Criminal Investigation Department (CID), including two women officers, stopped at a gay sauna named Raw for a “spot check” of an undisclosed nature. They searched the premises and behaved discreetly; ultimately, nothing of note occurred. Later, they (or another similar team) turned up at another sauna, One Seven.

Around 10pm, the staff at One Seven discovered that their water supply had been turned off. When they opened the back door to check what was going on, the CID team demanded entry. When Sam tried to stop them and asked for a warrant, they refused and only repeated that they were doing a “spot check”. About four other police cars also turned up during the scuffle.

An alert was made to the patrons of the sauna: all the lights in the dim areas came on. (This is a standard signal of a police raid in gay entertainment spots.) However, when a woman police officer insisted on entering the space, Sam insisted it was a men’s club and forbade her entry, becoming agitated in the process. The supervising officer then threw him on the ground and twisted his arms behind his back to handcuff him. When he continued to shout, the officer instructed his men to take down the identities of patrons present and to make a video recording of the event.

By now, most patrons had gotten dressed and left the premises without interference. Some noticeably foreign patrons (a Japanese man and a Caucasian man) were questioned and were asked for their identification details. The actual video recording does not seem to have been used as a threat against patrons; the cameraman often seemed more interested in the floor than the people.

As far as we know, no clients were arrested. Several DVDs were removed by the officers, however, and Sam was charged with assaulting (by pushing) the officer who handcuffed him – though he says he never laid hands on said officer - and had to spend one night in jail. He sustained cuts to his wrist and bruises on his left rib, for which he was later brought to Singapore General Hospital for treatment.

Why did it happen?

We don’t know why the CID turned up at Raw and One Seven. For all I know, they’d received a tip-off that Mas Selamat was hiding out at a gay sauna – but more probably, they were investigating based on suspicion of drug use, pxxnography or prostitution.

Yet the procedure of the raid at One Seven throws up a host of questions. First: why wouldn’t the police explain why they were there? I’m not surprised they didn’t produce a warrant – they probably didn’t have one, since Singapore laws allow police to enter establishments without warrants to check on licences or stolen property. But shouldn’t they have explained what they were after – unless they were intent on hiding something?

Second: why did they resort to such violent means of investigation – shutting off the water mains, bursting in through the back door rather than the front door, and calling in additional police cars? They know about the function of the gay saunas – it’s no secret – so why did they bring along women police officers?

What these actions suggest is that one motive for the raids – a secondary motive, if not the primary one - was to chasten and humiliate the operators of gay saunas; to ensure that they were as compliant and obedient as the operators of Raw and to punish them further if they were as recalcitrant as Sam.

(Doubtless, Sam behaved unwisely in protesting the entry, but what happened to him reeks of injustice – though I’ve no way of knowing the truth behind the assault charges, I’d find it quite believable that the police fabricated them as they did in the case of Chee Siok Chin.)

Third: why, really, did the police start recording people’s identities? The fact that this happened only to a few patrons at only one sauna suggests that it was driven more by spite than by procedure. But the fact remains that although Section 377A wasn’t enforced – i.e. men weren’t prosecuted for gay sex – they were still being persecuted for it.

Is this what we’ve fought for? Is this the quality of the government’s assurances that the law’s only there for ceremonial purposes?

What does it mean?

The police in Singapore have a recent history of harassing owners of gay establishments – it happened in both 2006 and 2007 in conjunction with the IndigNation Pride Festival. (See http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2006/yax-631.htm ).

And yet, this case is worse. You see, before this, I’d been able to correct my friends abroad whenever they exaggerated Singapore’s levels of homophobia. Yes, I’d tell them. We’ve got stupid laws, but no-one gets charged. We’ve got ignorant citizens, but very few of them are violently bigoted. We’ve got stupid censorship rules, but they’re slackening.

On the whole, I’d tell my friends, we’re getting better. Queer visibility and queer community-building are improving every year – ten years ago, we’d never have believed we’d have the levels of acceptance we do today.

But now – bam. We’ve got a sauna raid. This reverses seven years of progress in Singapore’s gay rights. Is this part of a new official policy? We don’t know. We’re back to living in fear.

And this comes right after that MDA censorship of a gay couple with a kid. As a gay man, it feels like I’m being attacked on both sides. The government doesn’t want me to be mature and have a stable relationship with a family. The government doesn’t want me to be slutty and have sex in saunas. What am I supposed to do? Turn straight? Go celibate? Or – more practically – emigrate?

We can emigrate, you know. Many of us gay men and women have skills that make us desired abroad. Imagine if we all left tomorrow: the arts scene, the design industry, the advertising companies, and a good lot of our sports teams – they’d break down. Bye-bye, Singapore the creative hub; hello, Singapore the dullest city in Southeast Asia.

Hopefully, I’m wrong. The problematic events of 25 April might not be driven by new homophobic policies, but simply by a few unprofessional, prejudiced individuals. Of course, that’d still mean that our police force doesn’t have enough checks and balances to address its abuses.

In the meantime, Minister of Home Affairs Mr Wong Kan Seng, do please keep your boys and girls in blue focused on important affairs like missing alleged terrorists and rapists and murderers and, oh, maybe even a little effort on petty crime would be a good idea. Why send them over to rough up a sauna? Let them behave with a little dignity.

And don’t give us gay people shit. You know this country needs us, and we can vote with our feet. Give us some respect.

Addendum:

A gay sauna, for those of you who need clarification, is a place where gay and bisexual men meet to have sex. And yes, before you ask, I’m aware that many people (gay and straight) find them disgusting.

Putting individual systems of morality aside, however, saunas cause no harm. These establishments are locations where consensual sex takes place, usually private and almost always with protection, presenting a safe alternative to outdoor cruising. Prostitution does not occur inside; social bonding and casual conversations do.

There are a number of gay saunas in Singapore, and several media exposés – tabloid newspapers and TV – have been done about them. The truth is, they’re old news, and they don’t get shut down because the government itself recognises their harmlessness.

(Yes, I myself have patronised these places. This of course means I am biased, but I wish to stand as a witness to their acceptability in society.)

Read also: Homophobia Part 1: The MDA censors the family

About the author:

Ng Yi-Sheng is a full-time freelance writer of poetry, drama, fiction, journalism, criticism and corporate hype. He is the author of the best-selling non-fiction book “SQ21: Singapore Queers in the 21st Century”, which was the first book of coming out stories in Asia to feature the real names and photographs of ordinary gay, lesbian and bisexual people.

[metalmickey]

Thanks for your sharing. One question: is it true that in the case where a police is of a certain rank and above, he does not need a search warrant to have the right to enter private property?

Now, let me state for the record that I am not a lawyer. But I am very well aware of my rights as a private citizen and I am well informed about local law to a certain extent. If there are any lawyers or professional law experts reading this thread, kindly check what I have stated and let us know whether what I've said is accurate, and if I have made any error with regard to the police's powers of search, seizure and arrest, then please set us all straight with the accurate information.

Finally, a word of advice to all. If we want to protect our rights as individual citizens and protect our community from harassment, then the first thing we have to do, as individuals and as a community, is to acquaint ourselves with our nation's Constitution, the Law, and our rights as citizens of this country.

==============================================================

Erroneous comments deleted by Lungker.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Lungker

[Lungker]

I have just checked with a member of the home team and this is what he had confirmed.

1) The Central Narcortics Bureau (CNB) CAN enter, and often even with force, any premises they had a reasonable suspicion of drugs activity. They do not need a warrant or even be accompanied by senior officer - someone who is an ASP (assistant superintendent of police) to go in.

2) The police CAN enter any premise without a search warrant as long as they are accompanied by a senior police officer with the rank of ASP and above.

And btw, they do not need to give you a reason why they are entering and searching your premises.

MM, I would suggest you checked your facts first before you provide wrong info to the public. Wrong info could get people into serious trouble with the law and this is something I am sure you don't want to do.

[Lungker]

The law may say it is illegal for you to protest an unjust action. But that does not prevent you from exercising your freewill to commit non-violent civil disobedience to challenge such an unjust law. And it still does not change the fact the law is unjust in the first place. Try and know the difference between unjust laws designed to keep certain power structures in perpetual, totalitarian rule over subjugated citizens, and your inalienable, fundamental rights as FREE human beings, people. People like Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., knew the difference, and were willing to make their respective sacrifices of their personal freedoms and go to jail to fight for those rights and set many people free. Are we willing to do the same, as individuals and as a community to establish true respect and protection for OUR community's human rights?

OK, I am a fan of peaceful civil rights leaders but I am also aware that I live in Singapore on my own free will and will respect the laws here.

MM, you are advocating people to challenge our laws. May I ask what have you done yourself beside coming here to ask people to commit peaceful civil disobedience. Once again, I ask you, what have you done yourself?

I am giving your comments some leeway when the issue involved a gay sauna. However please be aware of our posting guidelines regarding political comments. Take this as a gentle reminder.

[Guest -erection day-]

'prove my statement that our local law enforcement agencies have been given unduly TOO GREAT a power over the lives and property of private citizens in this country, a power that is often open to abuse'

I think you're strectching it a bit too much with such sweeping statement. When drugs is involved, no power is 'too great' when it comes giving our officers of the law the power that they need to do their job. Do you know how much time is needed to get a search warrant? They have to go thru some court approval or some time-consuming channel before they can act. So lets all calm down and digest this issue of 'rights' in the right perspective.

[TopChinese]

Frankly it is pointless to discuss vague obscure notions of "fundamental human rights" or "rights as individual citizens" if it is not clear where Singapore law stands in this case.

For a basic guide on criminal procedure and what you need to know about arrest etc, check here:

http://www.lawsociety.org.sg/awareness/arrest&bail.htm

http://www.spf.gov.sg/epc/procedures/arrest.htm

Best if you consult your criminal lawyers about your rights in this case.

A few pointers:

- In some cases where the police has reason to believe that a seizable offense has been committed, the police have powers to enter, search and arrest without a warrant. Seizable offenses are grave and serious offenses that threaten the foundation of Singapore society such as:

- murder

- consumption of illicit drugs

- in a group of more than 5 people, distributing pamphlets about the government's failure in Mas Selamat case

- fxxking a horny bottom doggy style (s377a).

- For non seizable offenses, the police has no powers of arrest without warrant. In practise, the police will not usually investigate these other cases. Non seizable offenses include:

- punching a man for behaving like a chao ah gua

- ramming your car into another car causing a 20 car pileup on the PIE without any fatalities.

- kicking a pregnant woman causing a miscarriage

- hunting online for 10yo boys

- In this case as pointed out by Yi Sheng, the police did not give any reasons for entering the sauna to conduct search even tho they may entitled to do so in some cases. Their behaviour during the raid was also erratic as they did not appear to be searching for drugs, pxxn or used condoms. It is puzzling why the police didn't exercise their powers in a legitimate manner.

- Although most of us here are lawful peaceful citizens, we should be entitled to disagree with the laws that are ridiculous and should reformed through peaceful ways. Respect of the law has already been eroded through the imposition of arbitary and senseless regulations. Why obey a law to not eat/drink in MRT stations when so many people are eating/drinking. Why obey a law that does not allow dogs in eating places when there are far filthier humans dining at the same establishments. Why obey a law that does not permit me to fxxk the man I love when our fxxking has no impact on the rest of society?

Edited May 7, 2008 by TopChinese

[erection day]

er... when was the last time you or your friend (or friend's friend) kena police 'enter YOUR home without your permission, while you stand by and watch helplessly as they go through your things without your consent'? If you cant think of any, then I think your paranoia is surely unfounded.

MM, pls dont think I am against you. I love your writing and wish to read more. But lets not be too much of a gay militant, or at least not an angry one.

Edited May 7, 2008 by erection day

[Lungker]

With all due respect to you Lungker, but as soon as anyone here starts talking about "rights" and "laws," we are ALL already making political statements. As for "what I have done myself", I believe that what I am doing is merely a public service in educating people about their fundamental human rights. Is there anything wrong with that? And like you, I do respect the law, in so far as those laws are just. If you found a law here to be unjust, I wonder how YOU would act. For the record, I was one of those who signed the petition for the repeal of Section 377A. If that is not a non-violent act of civil disobedience or protest, then I don't know what is. And if my very act of often having consensual sex with another man is not an act of non-violent civil disobedience in itself, then I don't know what you would call it. I am not advocating anything. I am merely educating people on their fundamental human rights and informing people that we all have a freewill that allows us to act according to what we know is true and just. And what are you threatening me with? Are you threatening to restrict my fundamental human right of freedom of speech? If that is so, then so much for freedom of speech in this forum, I say!

I guess as much. You have not done anything. Signing a statement on-line is so mighty meh? Don't make me laugh.

I quote you, "But that does not prevent you from exercising your freewill to commit non-violent civil disobedience to challenge such an unjust law." It is clear you are advocating people to commit civil disobedience in this forum. Why don't you take the lead? If Alex Au or Chee Soon Juan, who had been arrested many times for his civil disobediences come here and said the same thing, it at least had some credence. You signed an on-line petition, have gay sex and called that civil disobedience!!??

This is a private forum for public use. We have our rules and guidelines. You should read it. If you are not happy, you have the right not to come here. Better still, spend 5 minutes to start your own blog or forum and you can let people spew their opinions all they want. But while you are here, please respect our posting guidelines. If not, it will be deleted. Take this as an warning.

=====================================================

MM, I am moving one of your posts regarding Tang Fong Far, to our quarantine section for the mods to decide if it infringed our guidelines. Tang was arrested as a communist sympathizer more than twenty years ago and is now living in exile in Hong Kong. Please do not post that link anymore. It will be remove.

[Guest passing by]

The requirement that only someone ASP or above can have the power to do a search of premises without legal warrant would be some safeguard against junior police abusing their power. Another check (not fool-proof but it is still useful to an extent that would discourage the abuse of power) against the police's abuse power is to first co-operate with them as much as we are obligated to, and then file a formal complaint after the event. The ASP or a higher-rank police that lead such a search would have to do some paper work to justify it. He or she may need to show they have reasonable suspicion of criminal activities occurring in a premises. And if such incidents happen frequent and often enough without fruitful result (e.g. found evidence of drug-abuse) and with corresponding frequent complains, the police involved with such searches might run into problems with their superiors.

MM mentioned about trespassing of private premises. To what extent does a gay-sauna count as a private premises since sex in such a premises is chargeable as public indecency or sex in public? (contrast against sex at home)

(S377A is irrelevant to adult sex in saunas or home or hotel since govt does not want to prosecute consensual adult gay-sex done in private)

[oralb]

just a quick note...

377A is not irrelevant, it outlined that any form of sexual acts between males are illegal. Whether the authority chooses to prosecute is based on their discreetion.

[metalmickey]

Post deleted by Lungker.

Lungker said: Stick to the topic. And as your comment that the mods here are cowards that kow-tow to the authorities....well you are right. Why don't you be a hero and start your own blog or forum. See how brave you are.

Well, I have actually. And here is the link: http://joe9068.blogspot.com. Mind you, this is not a political comment, this merely sharing a link to my site. So, there's nothing wrong with sharing this, is there?

Edited May 7, 2008 by metalmickey

[Lungker]

Well, I have actually. And here is the link: http://joe9068.blogspot.com. Mind you, this is not a political comment, this merely sharing a link to my site. So, there's nothing wrong with sharing this, is there?

No, there is not. And on behalf of all the mods, we would appreciate if you would leave your anti-government feelings in your blog.

[Lungker]

MM, like I thought, sure enough, you have no balls.

Your blog does not reveal who you are. You hide behind a nick. You did not comment on anything that is pro-gay. Why is there no commentary on the one-seven raid?

Like us, you are a kow-tow coward too.

Do you think Gandhi and Martin Luther King, whom you referred to, hide their real identity in their blogs if they had one.

Topic locked because MM is abusing it for his own agenda. Read his blog and see if he is really the hero he think he is.

===========================================================================

I am unlocking this thread because MM PM me to say he want to reply to my comment about his blog. After his reply, I will be locking it again.

[metalmickey]

MM, like I thought, sure enough, you have no balls.

Your blog does not reveal who you are. You hide behind a nick. You did not comment on anything that is pro-gay. Why is there no commentary on the one-seven raid?

Like us, you are a kow-tow coward too.

Do you think Gandhi and Martin Luther King, whom you referred to, hide their real identity in their blogs if they had one.

Topic locked because MM is abusing it for his own agenda. Read his blog and see if he is really the hero he think he is.

Yes, I am anonymous in my blog. But If you want to reach me and find out more about me, there is a link to my email there. But I think it is unfair of you to say that I have no balls. Just like you, I have my reasons for my anonymity. If you want to say that I'm a coward, go ahead. If you and the rest of the moderators and I hide behind nicknames for the sake of self-preservation, then I guess that makes us all cowards. At least, in my blog I have the freedom to say whatever I want, and I don't kow-tow to anyone.

As to why there is no commentary yet on the One Seven raid, I haven't gotten around to it yet. Give me time. And I don't think of myself as a hero. I simply think of myself as an ordinary, concerned citizen. Thank you for being gracious enough to give me this right of reply.

[erection day]

Hmm... read in another forum that the police raided Raw on Thursday night, 24 July. I was there in the afternoon. Thank goodness after I was done, I left early before 5pm. I wonder why always Raw kena police check. Either Raw or 1-7. Very unnerving. Heard some of the patrons have their IC particulars taken down before they are allowed to leave.

Edited July 26, 2008 by erection day

[Guest alamak]

Hmm... read in another forum that the police raided Raw on Thursday night, 24 July. I was there in the afternoon after that uneventful preview at Absolute. Thank goodness after I was done, I left early before 5pm. I wonder why always Raw kena police check. Either Raw or 1-7. Very unnerving. Heard some of the patrons have their IC particulars taken down before they are allowed to leave.

the word RAW sound like encouraging raw sex. the number 17 sound like encouraging underage. no wonder this 2 spa always kanna raid. so a lesson to learn, choose shop name wisely.