Opera appreciations and discussion

[Steve5380]

I have seldom been impressed so much by music of organ like I am with this performance of Wagner's Overture. 

 

The initial part of Tannhauser played on this keyboard instrument reveals what a genius Wagner was in his harmonies and musical phrasing.  He was definitely revolutionary and creative.  Throughout, the Overture sounds majestic played on this instrument in this magnificent cathedral.  I like the Catholic and mainstream Protestant liturgies very much, and I wish there were any reality behind them.  Much of the composition sounds good, but some parts are too messy, loud and overwhelming (which does not happen in the original orchestral performance) and they could have been simplified.  "Too many notes".   The video is impressive, with excellent views of the cathedral and also the insides of the organ, which is not common to see.

 

 

 

 

As much as the organ is impressive,  this following interpretation is divine:

 

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:58 AM, Steve5380 said:

I have seldom been impressed so much by music of organ like I am with this performance of Wagner's Overture.

Much as I love the sound of a large organ in an impressive cathedral, that version of the Tannhauser overture works only in regard to its volume of sound. It is impossible on an organ to match the delicacy of much of Wagner's orchestral writing. It simply cannot create the delicate filigree of much of the string writing, for example. Besides the arrangement omits a vital phrase played by all four horns. This appears at 13'48" in the old Klemperer version but is nowhere to be heard when it should be at 14'46" on the muddy organ version. That phrase is important because it helps defines the chord and the progression on to the next phrase. This can be both very clearly seen and heard at 1'07" on this short clip with Andris Nelsons conducting the Berlin Philharmonic.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 8/29/2021 at 12:47 AM, InBangkok said:

Much as I love the sound of a large organ in an impressive cathedral, that version of the Tannhauser overture works only in regard to its volume of sound. It is impossible on an organ to match the delicacy of much of Wagner's orchestral writing. It simply cannot create the delicate filigree of much of the string writing, for example. 

 

 

I agree.  The organ is ill suited for music that requires change in dynamics and fast notes.  Much of my being impressed was due to Wagner's composition, especially at the beginning where he plays on a single keyboard.  It impressed me more than the typical fantasies and fugues of Bach on the organ.

[InBangkok]

I have just been looking at the Houston Symphony concert schedule. The season has some impressive soloists, of whom Renee Fleming (September 11) and Itzhak Perlman (May 12, 14 and 15) are the most outstanding. I also see that Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony is featured on October 22, 23 and 24 in a programme that also concludes Prokofiev's fun First Symphony. Just for interest.

[Steve5380]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:38 AM, InBangkok said:

I have just been looking at the Houston Symphony concert schedule. The season has some impressive soloists, of whom Renee Fleming (September 11) and Itzhak Perlman (May 12, 14 and 15) are the most outstanding. I also see that Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony is featured on October 22, 23 and 24 in a programme that also concludes Prokofiev's fun First Symphony. Just for interest.

 

Thanks!  The Houston Grand Opera's next season is attractive too, with operas like The Magic Flute, Carmen, Turandot.  My older sister is coming to Houston next year to live with me,  and she is also a lover of classical music.  We may start to participate in the concert scene, we are at the perfect age to do so, ha ha.  

[Steve5380]

I have to come back to Wagner,  his Tannhauser Overture directed by Otto Klemperer.  I found another video with the same 1960 recording with the addition of nice landscapes.  I don't know of any performance of this Overture that comes close to the level of Klemperer's, with his Philharmonia Orchestra.

 

On this hearing I was overcome by the geniality of Wagner, a man so controversial but... who cannot accept his shortcomings when such wonderful compositions were created by his spirit? Hearing this is a musical orgasm, and it can even make a serious and respectable older man like me cry like a baby... 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

More very sad news. The outstanding coloratura soprano Edita Gruberova has died at the age of 74. Born to a German father and Hungarian mother, she created a sensation in her Vienna Opera debut as the Queen of the Night in 1970. From then on for many years she was the coloratura soprano of choice in the major Opera Houses.

 

This is the aria Martern aller arten early in her career in from a 1980 Munich production, superbly conducted by Karl Boehm who brings out such detail in the orchestra. A regular at the Salzburg Festival, she sang Konstanze in 1975 and later the role with which she was particularly associated, Zerbinetta in Richard Strauss' Ariadne aux Naxos which she also sang at Salzburg under Herbert von Karajan. In 1992 she sang Gllda in a film version of Rigoletto alongside Luciano Pavarotti. After her international appearances around the world, throughout the 1990s and 2000s she concentrated her career in four major European houses - Vienna, Munich, Zurich and Barcelona.

 

Ms. Gruberova gave her final stage performance in Munich in early 2019 as Elizabeth I in Roberto Devereux. Since then she had concentrated on concerts and masterclasses. She leaves an extraordinary legacy of recorded performances. These include three Ariadnes, the first with Gundula Janowitz and the Vienna Philharmonic under Karl Boehm, then with Solti and the London Philharmonic, and the third with Jessye Norman and Dietrich Fischer Dieskau with the Leipzig Gewandhaus under Kurt Masur. Others were three Entfuhrungs, three Zauberflotes under Haitink, Levine and Harnoncourt, Don Carlos with Carreras and Mirella Freni with Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic, Ballo in Maschera with Domingo under Abbado and the Orchestra of la Scala, Hansel and Gretel with Christa Ludwig and Barbara Bonney under Colin Davis and the Dresden Staatskapelle, and many, many more. May she rest in peace.

, 

 

[Steve5380]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:59 PM, InBangkok said:

More very sad news. The outstanding coloratura soprano Edita Gruberova has died at the age of 74. Born to a German father and Hungarian mother, she created a sensation in her Vienna Opera debut as the Queen of the Night in 1970. From then on for many years she was the coloratura soprano of choice in the major Opera Houses.

 

This is the aria Martern aller arten early in her career in from a 1980 Munich production, superbly conducted by Karl Boehm who brings out such detail in the orchestra. A regular at the Salzburg Festival, she sang Konstanze in 1975 and later the role with which she was particularly associated, Zerbinetta in Richard Strauss' Ariadne aux Naxos which she also sang at Salzburg under Herbert von Karajan. In 1992 she sang Gllda in a film version of Rigoletto alongside Luciano Pavarotti. After her international appearances around the world, throughout the 1990s and 2000s she concentrated her career in four major European houses - Vienna, Munich, Zurich and Barcelona.

 

Ms. Gruberova gave her final stage performance in Munich in early 2019 as Elizabeth I in Roberto Devereux. Since then she had concentrated on concerts and masterclasses. She leaves an extraordinary legacy of recorded performances. These include three Ariadnes, the first with Gundula Janowitz and the Vienna Philharmonic under Karl Boehm, then with Solti and the London Philharmonic, and the third with Jessye Norman and Dietrich Fischer Dieskau with the Leipzig Gewandhaus under Kurt Masur. Others were three Entfuhrungs, three Zauberflotes under Haitink, Levine and Harnoncourt, Don Carlos with Carreras and Mirella Freni with Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic, Ballo in Maschera with Domingo under Abbado and the Orchestra of la Scala, Hansel and Gretel with Christa Ludwig and Barbara Bonney under Colin Davis and the Dresden Staatskapelle, and many, many more. May she rest in peace.

, 

 

 

She was really excellent in this "Marten aller arten"  A big loss.  RIP!

 

She died at an early age of 74 y.o.  Cause of death:  a head injury caused by a fall at home.   It is not uncommon for falls in elderly people to be fatal.  This is why it is ever more important to cultivate lower body strength through exercises as we age!  

[InBangkok]

On 10/27/2021 at 6:59 AM, Steve5380 said:

She died at an early age of 74 y.o.  Cause of death:  a head injury caused by a fall at home.   It is not uncommon for falls in elderly people to be fatal.  This is why it is ever more important to cultivate lower body strength through exercises as we age!  

According to her agent, the information about her fall has been corrected as a result of a post mortem. It appears she suffered from a stroke which was the cause of the fall.

[Steve5380]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:58 PM, InBangkok said:

According to her agent, the information about her fall has been corrected as a result of a post mortem. It appears she suffered from a stroke which was the cause of the fall.

 

That changes slightly the recommendation.  A wealthy lady of 74 y.o. is too young to fall of a stroke and die.   A person of her age should have as part of her preventive care a carotid ultrasound to see if there is plaque in the carotid artery.  If there is, some precautions should be taken like taking a daily baby aspirin (to thin the blood), vitamin K2-MK7, and nutritional changes to reduce cholesterol.  Exercise also helps.  

[Steve5380]

What an exemplar life she carried out!  A happy life that deserved to have lasted longer.  This makes it so important to reach old age still healthy, or even better,  perfectly healthy!

 

 

[Steve5380]

I found a recording of Gruberova singing Mozart's Dove Sono,  my choice music with which to judge a soprano.

 

I find with satisfaction that Gruberova is in the same league as the magnificent Margaret Price.  Now I have two top sopranos to chose from!  

 

 

 

 

 

[InBangkok]

Ah! The glorious Dame Margaret Price. That recording of "Dove sono" comes from a 1973/4 recording of Mozart Opera and Concert Arias conducted by her close friend and mentor, the conductor James Lockhart. This concert aria from 1783 shows how easy it is for her to hit a high E. It is notable also for the final section "Ah, conte, partite". with fiendishly difficult leaps. This section starts at 5'48". Many sopranos take the low notes an octave up, but Dame Margaret has no problem with them. I believe the large leap is from B below middle C to D three above. The highest note in the aria is a high E.

 

 

But an E is not the highest in the coloratura repertoire. That is not even from the Queen of the Night arias in Die Zauberflote. In the original version of Ariadne aux Naxos, Zerbinetta's famous aria has an F#. The 'prize for highest note must surely go to a little known composer named Heinrich Proch. Towards the end of his Variations for Soprano and Orchestra "Deh! torna mio ben" there is a passage with flute rather similar to that in Lucia di Lammermoor. At the end after a trill the soprano hits a high A flat. Very few sopranos can get that high. Sumi Jo recorded the aria and skips the high A flat. This is a recording made about 35 years ago with the rather appropriately known coloratura Beverly Hoch with the young Hong Kong Philharmonic under Kenneth Schermerhorn.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:26 PM, InBangkok said:

 

 This concert aria from 1783 shows how easy it is for her to hit a high E. It is notable also for the final section "Ah, conte, partite". with fiendishly difficult leaps. This section starts at 5'48". Many sopranos take the low notes an octave up, but Dame Margaret has no problem with them. I believe the large leap is from B below middle C to D three above. The highest note in the aria is a high E.

 

 

 

Thank you.  I was not aware of this aria "Vorrei spiegarvi"  ( I would like to explain to you )  written by Mozart to be inserted at the end of act 1 of an opera by someone else.  I had not even an idea that such "insertions" would exist.   In any case, this aria is another exposition of the great art of Margaret Price!  and I will remember it.  

[InBangkok]

I was also not aware that composers permitted singers to swap around arias in their operas! I am sure you will know the more often performed concert aria "Chi'o mi scordi di te" which is also included on Dame Margaret's CD of Mozart arias. It's such a joy to hear that absolutely superb voice. The extent of my ability on the piano never got further than playing the piano obligato in a performance of this aria with my university orchestra - not very well!!

 

Interestingly, I had heard that she was not an easy artiste to work with, especially with some producers. But I recently heard an old radio programme with Dame Kiri Te Kanawa talking about other singers she loved working with. She did not often work with Dame Margaret but said she was always fun to be around. She pointed out that when you rehearse a new production you can be in a city for 3 or 4 weeks, often not knowing anyone, and can get terribly lonely. She mentioned working with her on Don Giovanni in Paris and said they always had a great time together after rehearsals. She enjoyed Dame Margaret's Donna Anna more than any other singer. After singing "Non mi dir", even though it had been wonderful, Dame Margaret would come offstage never satisfied with her performance. Dame Kiri also considered her an outstanding Wagner singer, especially her Isolde recording with Carlos Kleiber.

 

 

[InBangkok]

Having mentioned Wagner, I just saw a listing of concerts coming up in November in Germany when conductor Kent Nagano will lead the first Ring cycle in an historically informed performance - i.e. with an orchestra playing on original instruments! The orchestra will be the Concerto Koln which plays for many of Rene Jacobs opera recordings. @Steve5380 should avoid listening given his aversion to the Brahms concertos on original instruments. I'm not sure where I can hear it but I would certainly be interested to compare the different with modern instrument versions even though I might not last much beyond Rheingold.

 

I am curious to find out how original instruments will convey the intense sustained lyricism of passages like Wotan's Farewell at the end of Die Walkure as here in this sample from the recent Hong Kong Philharmonic recording with Jaap van Zweden whose full Ring cycle helped that orchestra win Gramophone's Orchestra of the Year Award two years ago. Matthias Goerne is a marvellous Wotan.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:52 PM, InBangkok said:

 

I was also not aware that composers permitted singers to swap around arias in their operas! I am sure you will know the more often performed concert aria "Chi'o mi scordi di te" which is also included on Dame Margaret's CD of Mozart arias. It's such a joy to hear that absolutely superb voice. The extent of my ability on the piano never got further than playing the piano obligato in a performance of this aria with my university orchestra - not very well!!

 

 

No, I only vaguely remember this concert aria, and I was not aware that Mozart had written something for soprano, orchestra and piano obbligato. 

 

Frankly I don't see the need of our piano ability to go much beyond the skill to play this obbligato.  With it, you can play as soloist the Mozart piano concertos.  I think that this is sufficient for a person who does not pursue a career as professional pianist to have a lifelong enjoyment of playing this instrument.

 

Margaret Price sings this concert aria wonderfully,  but I think that the pianist in the video could do a better job.  Here I found one where the piano is played at the same high level as the singer:  (of course, Uchida....)

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 10/30/2021 at 9:32 PM, InBangkok said:

Having mentioned Wagner, I just saw a listing of concerts coming up in November in Germany when conductor Kent Nagano will lead the first Ring cycle in an historically informed performance - i.e. with an orchestra playing on original instruments! The orchestra will be the Concerto Koln which plays for many of Rene Jacobs opera recordings. @Steve5380 should avoid listening given his aversion to the Brahms concertos on original instruments. I'm not sure where I can hear it but I would certainly be interested to compare the different with modern instrument versions even though I might not last much beyond Rheingold.

 

 

I don't think I need to AVOID listening to the Ring cycle played with epoch instruments.  I simply dedicate my precious time to more inspiring listening, for two reasons:

 

1. I don't see any need nor any advantage in the use of "original instruments".  Would we prefer to drive an "original Ford T" instead of a Tesla?  Or fly in an Airco D.H.4a VIII single-engine plane, an "original" passenger plane from 100 years ago? Why is it that not a single competitor in the most prestigious piano competitions choose to play on a 19th century Blutner piano, so liked by... a Shiff ( not a Stiff yet )    Instead, they choose the most advanced modern grand pianos!

 

2. I could also get bored to death by the endless soft musical developments stretching like chewing gum in the Ring.  But I love Wagner's Overtures and Preludes. 

[Steve5380]

On 10/30/2021 at 9:32 PM, InBangkok said:

 

I am curious to find out how original instruments will convey the intense sustained lyricism of passages like Wotan's Farewell at the end of Die Walkure as here in this sample from the recent Hong Kong Philharmonic recording with Jaap van Zweden whose full Ring cycle helped that orchestra win Gramophone's Orchestra of the Year Award two years ago. Matthias Goerne is a marvellous Wotan.

 

 

 

Hopefully your curiosity will be satisfied satisfactorily  

 

But I suspect that if Wagner could have received by some magic a collection of the wind instruments we have today, he would have asked his musicians to put their "original instruments" outside on the curb for the trash pickup to take them away (if they had trash pick up in those days).  And he would enjoy the glorious sound of the brasses of today.

 

The baritone Matthias Goerne sounds great as Wotan in the video you posted.  He was a student of Dietrich Fisher-Dieskau and Elizabeth Schwarzkopf.   I occasionally heard him singing lieder,  and I prefer the lieder singing of his teacher Dieskau.  Like in the following performance in the Concertgebouw, singing some Schubert lieder transposed to orchestra.  I find that this unfortunate transposition takes away the special charm of the lied, intended for a more private, intimate gathering where Schubert places the piano at the same level as the singer (in my opinion).  Dozens of musicians cannot take the place of a few perfect tones produced on the piano.  This is so true in this inspired Lied "An Silvia", where a handful of notes of the piano create joyful excitement.  Instead, the orchestra sounds like dropped marshmallows...  In Erlkonig the piano sounds like a force of nature, but the orchestra sounds like background music. And at the end in the Ständchen, the playing by the orchestra sounds like cheap SHMALTZ this music SHOULD NOT be.  Instead, Gerald Moore makes it sound on the piano like the Serenade it is! 

 

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

I don't want to take anything away from Matthias Goerne,  but when it comes to Schubert Lieder, one has to show a contrast:  here are "An Sylvia"  and "Ständchen" how THEY SHOULD SOUND to lovers of music:

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Steve5380

[singalion]

Steve and InBangkok!

 

Look, every effort from other musical connoisseurs or enthusiasts is destroyed by your silly brawls.

 

Take a deep breath and just look what you are doing.

 

You are worse than two kids in the sand box, fighting about ridicule petty items.

 

We know you don't like each other and look to "destroy" the toy of the other.

 

You both want to be remembered as some fighting childish cocks at BW?

 

Why don't you just ignore each others posts and move on?

 

Should the Moderators give you both some space at the Flaming Room?

 

 

You are destroying more than you create.  Is it is worth?

Get back to ground and throw musical notes instead of stones in the sand box.

[InBangkok]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:15 AM, singalion said:

Why don't you just ignore each others posts and move on?

May I remind you of what you wrote in your post of April 11 this year - 

 

"Steve will never acknowledge he was wrong or did a mistake, but he will defend himself up to his last breath, trust me.

 

"Even if 25,000 members will tell him he was wrong, he won't give in.

 

"It's not worth to fight on!

 

"Focus on your music, it's much more worth and brings joy to our community.

 

"Even a good friend of mine who listens exclusively to Canto pop confessed me just some month ago your thread enticed him to explore opera. 

 

"See your outreach!"

 

I am delighted if I encouraged even one person to become interested in live opera. But in the light of that, your comments in the latest post appear to make no sense. If one poster will never admit he is wrong or made a mistake even if 25,000 members tell him he is wrong, assuming he is indeed wrong, then I will be one who will. There is such a thing as integrity. I will never lie down and let someone else trash my views. I will enter into a discussion, an intense one if necessary, and I will - as I have in the past - apologise if I happen to be wrong.

 

But perhaps you can elaborate. For what possible reason should one poster be permitted to continue posting nonsense and call other posters names like trolls, and yet other posters must sit back and accept it? That makes zero sense to me. I do not give in either.

 

Back on the subject of opera, the lovely Elsa's Dream from Wagner's Lohengrin sung by the glorious Gundula Janowitz

 

the lovely 

[Steve5380]

On 11/4/2021 at 10:15 PM, singalion said:

Steve and InBangkok!

 

Look, every effort from other musical connoisseurs or enthusiasts is destroyed by your silly brawls.

 

Take a deep breath and just look what you are doing.

 

You are worse than two kids in the sand box, fighting about ridicule petty items.

 

We know you don't like each other and look to "destroy" the toy of the other.

 

You both want to be remembered as some fighting childish cocks at BW?

 

Why don't you just ignore each others posts and move on?

 

Should the Moderators give you both some space at the Flaming Room?

 

 

You are destroying more than you create.  Is it is worth?

Get back to ground and throw musical notes instead of stones in the sand box.

 

Every time I go to the Members Lounge and notice a new posting in one of the two threads about music, I go there immediately in hopes to find some new classical music item with which to enjoy my ears. 

 

Your post and the one on the Instrumental Music thread is none of that.  It is completely off topic.  It is unnecessarily patronizing, especially since you act like the person in the Bible who saw the speckle in others' eyes but not the log in his eye.   Your "log" is the US Politics thread, where you keep an incessant fight with people of opposite ideology.

 

There was no recent fighting going on in this thread, and your post is so out of place behind the such beautiful jewels of Schubert's singing music.   Why don't you post here about music?  In the other thread you wrote that you play the piano, but you didn't write one word about the important piano competition in Warsaw that just ended.  You have zero opinions about it, you don't care?  At least @InBangkok ends his compulsive ranting with some nice musical piece.

[Steve5380]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:25 AM, InBangkok said:

May I remind you of what you wrote in your post of April 11 this year - 

 

"Steve will never acknowledge he was wrong or did a mistake, but he will defend himself up to his last breath, trust me.  < Steve is still far, far away from his last breath.  And he has already admitted being wrong at times>

 

< Blah, blah, blah,... more compulsive ranting of grudges... >

 

Back on the subject of opera, the lovely Elsa's Dream from Wagner's Lohengrin sung by the glorious Gundula Janowitz

 

the lovely 

 

This is really such a nice aria from Lohengrin.  Genial music of Wagner and beautiful singing of Janowitz.

 

Gundula Janowitz is now 84 years old.  We can already dread the time she will leave us.   But I won't comment then on her looks,  because she looks fine,  like in this interview when she was 80:

 

   

Edited November 6, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 11/6/2021 at 1:47 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

This is really such a nice aria from Lohengrin.  Genial music of Wagner and beautiful singing of Janowitz.

 

Gundula Janowits is now 84 years old.  We can already dread the time she will leave us.   But I won't comment then on her looks,  because she looks fine,  like in this interview when she was 80:

Thank you for that interview with the wonderful Gundula Janowitz. I adored her voce from the moment I first heard it when she sang Sieglinde on Karajan's recorded Ring Cycle. When she sings "O hehrstes Wunder" in Act 3 after Brunnhilde has told her she is bearing Siegmund's son, the rapture she conveyed sent shivers down my spine. How wonderful that she spends much of her time visiting patients in hospitals. It reminds me a little of the conductor Riccardo Muti who each year takes some musicians from the Chicago Symphony to perform in prisons.

 

Interesting that she is being interviewed by another equally superb singer, the mezzo Brigitte Fassbaender. She sang in all the major opera houses. She was that relatively unique artiste - a totally natural actor.  An outstanding Octavian, she was also a supreme Orlofsky in Die Fledermaus. 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:35 PM, InBangkok said:

 

Interesting that she is being interviewed by another equally superb singer, the mezzo Brigitte Fassbaender. She sang in all the major opera houses. She was that relatively unique artiste - a totally natural actor.  An outstanding Octavian, she was also a supreme Orlofsky in Die Fledermaus. 

 

 

 

Ahh... operettas!  I had them so long forgotten.

 

My mother used to love operettas.  Die Fledermaus from Strauss, and especially Die lustige Witwe (the merry widow) from Lehar,...  since she was one.

 

I have totally forgotten the style. But I will refresh my memory.  Unfortunately, there are none or few staging of operettas in the US, and I would like to see them because I think they are more animated than operas.

[InBangkok]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:15 PM, Steve5380 said:

I have totally forgotten the style. But I will refresh my memory.  Unfortunately, there are none or few staging of operettas in the US, and I would like to see them because I think they are more animated than operas.

Sorry to say Merry Widow was performed in Houston in 2003 with the wonderful Susan Graham as the Widow. I only know because it is one of the first clips to come up on a youtube query. 

 

 

I love the male septet from the same opera when they sing about "Women". I do think operetta should be sung in the language of the country where it is performed rather than the original. So this is an old Sadlers Wells Opera recording in English conducted I think by Sir Alexander Gibson. Love the comment after they sing of some women wanting grand romantic passion, "Tristan and Isolde stuff" at 0'27"

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by InBangkok

[singalion]

 

Here an opera piece that has not been played very often on the opera stages (at least the Western cities).

 

Concert performance of “Mazeppa” under Kirill Petrenko in November

The Berliner Philharmoniker will be coming to Baden-Baden and presenting

Peter I. Tchaikovsky's opera Mazeppa, a new production of which was planned for the 2021 Easter Festival, can now finally be heard in concert. "We all shared this great dream of making the opera heard again, and we are now very much looking forward to," said the Artistic Director of the Festspielhaus Baden-Baden.

The programme includes Peter Tchaikovsky's opera Mazeppa, which will be performed on 10 and 12 November.

 

Performers

Kirill Petrenko	Conductor
Vladislav Sulimsky	Baritone	Mazepa
Olga Peretyatko	Soprano	Mariya
Oksana Volkova	Mezzo-soprano	Lyubov
Dmitry Golovnin	Tenor	Andrei
Vitalij Kowaljow	Bass	Kochubey
Alexander Kravets	Tenor	A drunken cossack
Anton Rositskiy	Tenor	Iskra
Dimitry Ivashchenko	Bass	Orlik

 

 

Hopefully, there will be a recording.

 

[InBangkok]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:15 PM, Steve5380 said:

Ahh... operettas!  I had them so long forgotten . . . Unfortunately, there are none or few staging of operettas in the US, and I would like to see them because I think they are more animated than operas.

It seems operetta in the USA and the UK is becoming neglected, which is a pity because there are some wonderful works in that genre full of great tunes even though the storylines may be a little thin. Although we often tend to think of Offenbach as an opera composer thanks to his Tales of Hoffmann, one of his many operettas should definitely be in the repertoire of  every opera company. Most of us will know the can-can from Orpheus in the Underworld. But my favourite is La Belle Helene. The story is loosely based on the elopement of Helen with Paris which led to the 10 year Trojan War.

 

This is one of the lovely arias for Paris, here sung by the Peruvian Juan Diego Flores - arguably the finest high light lyric tenor of today. He is telling why he had awarded the Prize of Beauty to the goddess Venus - the prize in this case being an apple! Throughout the opera he is sometimes called "l'home a la pomme"! (the man with the apple). The other goddesses Minerva and Juno have gone overboard telling him they should be awarded the apple whereas Venus says nothing. It's just a fun piece.

 

 

[Steve5380]

Juan Diego Florez...  I hadn't heard from this great tenor before.  What a rich voice!   He is from Lima, Peru

 

Here is a video of him singing this Mexican song "cucurrucucu paloma", which I had never heard so well sung:

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:20 AM, singalion said:

 

Here an opera piece that has not been played very often on the opera stages (at least the Western cities).

 

Concert performance of “Mazeppa” under Kirill Petrenko in November

The Berliner Philharmoniker will be coming to Baden-Baden and presenting

Peter I. Tchaikovsky's opera Mazeppa, a new production of which was planned for the 2021 Easter Festival, can now finally be heard in concert. "We all shared this great dream of making the opera heard again, and we are now very much looking forward to," said the Artistic Director of the Festspielhaus Baden-Baden.

The programme includes Peter Tchaikovsky's opera Mazeppa, which will be performed on 10 and 12 November.

 

Performers

Kirill Petrenko	Conductor
Vladislav Sulimsky	Baritone	Mazepa
Olga Peretyatko	Soprano	Mariya
Oksana Volkova	Mezzo-soprano	Lyubov
Dmitry Golovnin	Tenor	Andrei
Vitalij Kowaljow	Bass	Kochubey
Alexander Kravets	Tenor	A drunken cossack
Anton Rositskiy	Tenor	Iskra
Dimitry Ivashchenko	Bass	Orlik

 

 

Hopefully, there will be a recording.

 

 

I was not aware that Tchaikovsky had written other operas besides Eugene Onegin. 

 

I started hearing Mazeppa for the first time in this video, and it sounds very promising, a typical Tchaikovsky:

 

 

 

Tchaikovsky was gay.  But he was married to Antonina Miliukova...   how STRANGE, a gay man married to a woman(!), isn't this weird?   Also, there are suspicions that he committed suicide!  But they say that there are cases of gays who married a woman, and they are ending perfectly happy!  

[InBangkok]

It was Pavarotti who made his name, first at the Royal Opera House and then at the Met in New York, with the famous aria from Donizetti's Fille du Regiment, the one that has 9 high Cs all approached in the most fiendishly difficult way with an octave leap. That was the start of his being called "King of the high Cs". Florez may not quite have the Italianate bloom of Pavarotti's voice at its peak in the 1970s, but he rolls off those high Cs with extravagant ease.

 

 

[InBangkok]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:36 PM, Steve5380 said:

I was not aware that Tchaikovsky had written other operas besides Eugene Onegin. 

 

I started hearing Mazeppa for the first time in this video, and it sounds very promising, a typical Tchaikovsky:

 

Tchaikovsky was gay.  But he was married to Antonina Miliukova...   how STRANGE, a gay man married to a woman(!), isn't this weird?   Also, there are suspicions that he committed suicide!  But they say that there are cases of gays who married a woman, and they are ending perfectly happy!  

 

After Eugene Onegin his most famous opera is Queen of Spades. This is frequently performed around the world.

 

Tchaikovsky was very gay, as indeed was his younger brother Modest. All the Russian and Soviet authorities worked hard since his death to hide this fact. In recent years, though, all the rumours proved to be true with the publication in Russia in 2009 of The Tchaikovsky Papers: Unlocking the Family Archive. This includes a large number of the more than 5,000 letters that Tchaikovsky left on his death. They are housed in archives of the Tchaikovsky State House Museum. Most had never before been published in English until the 2018 edition was published.

 

As the book's English Preface points out, "In the eye of the authorities it would have been unthinkable to accept that Russia's National Treasure was homosexual." The book adds that the issue of his homosexuality remains a subject of heated and sometimes ugly debate in present day Russia. All the letters are published without censorship.

 

Although the letters make clear that he was virtually an open homosexual and revelled in it, he was also tormented by it, frequently hating himself. In one letter he writes of encountering a "youth of stunning beauty," who refused money for the liaison because he "adores men with beards."  In another, he writes, "My rendezvous had been arranged for this evening. A truly bitter-sweet dilemma! Finally I decided to go. I spent two wonderful hours in the most romantic circumstances; I was scared, I was thrilled, I was afraid of the slightest sound. Embraces, kisses, an out-of-the-way apartment . . .  tender talk, what delight1"

 

It was because of his increasing fear of being discovered, especially of blackmail by one of his young conquests (in Tsarist Russia this would have been a reason for not merely being ostracised from society but also being exiled - the only openly gay member of the artistic community who was accepted into society seems to have been the impresario Serge Diaghilev) that he decided to get married. At least he hoped it would stop the rumours. 

 

The lady who was to become his wife had known Tchaikovsky for several years. She was smitten by him at first sight. She came to know about his homosexuality. Tchaikovsky himself in making his proposal for marriage had stressed that he could only offer "brotherly love". Within days of the marriage he realised he had made a disastrous mistake. After some time away from his wife, he returned and announced his separation after less than 3 months. It seems unlikely the marriage was ever consummated. Psychologically, he quickly came to hate sharing his life with his wife, her friends and her family. It was totally incompatible with his being and he was consumed by misery. The divorce took almost 3 years. Yet as soon as it became legal, he suffered further agonies at the way he had treated her. He fully accepted that the failure of the marriage was due to him and in no way to his wife. After his death, his will left her a pension of 100 rubles per month

 

Another of Tchaikovsky's infatuations, which may well have included some form of sexual affair, was his nephew Vladimir "Bob" Davidov to whom he dedicated his Pathetique Symphony. The gay novelist E.M. Forster references Tchaikovsky's infatuation with his nephew in his love story Maurice.

 

As to the manner of his death, the official reason was that he drank a glass of unboiled water and contracted cholera. Yet many question why he would do this when he would have been perfectly well aware that there was a cholera epidemic in St. Petersburg and unboiled water would almost always lead to death. Other theories have emerged in the last few decades. The most common is that his homosexuality was discovered by a cadet at the Tsar's naval academy whose father was a noted homophobe. Allegedly he was tried by a court of cadets, found guilty and ordered to take his own life. The fact that the Pathetique Symphony ends in such an unusually sombre fashion and quotes a theme from the Russian Mass for the Dead suggests that he was preparing for his own death which occurred only 9 days after the premiere of the symphony. Evidence of such an event is extremely slim. And does it really matter to us today?

[Steve5380]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:06 AM, InBangkok said:

 

Tchaikovsky was very gay, as indeed was his younger brother Modest. All the Russian and Soviet authorities worked hard since his death to hide this fact. In recent years, though, all the rumours proved to be true with the publication in Russia in 2009 of The Tchaikovsky Papers: Unlocking the Family Archive. This includes a large number of the more than 5,000 letters that Tchaikovsky left on his death. They are housed in archives of the Tchaikovsky State House Museum. Most had never before been published in English until the 2018 edition was published.

 

IAs to the manner of his death, the official reason was that he drank a glass of unboiled water and contracted cholera. Yet many question why he would do this when he would have been perfectly well aware that there was a cholera epidemic in St. Petersburg and unboiled water would almost always lead to death. Other theories have emerged in the last few decades. The most common is that his homosexuality was discovered by a cadet at the Tsar's naval academy whose father was a noted homophobe. Allegedly he was tried by a court of cadets, found guilty and ordered to take his own life. The fact that the Pathetique Symphony ends in such an unusually sombre fashion and quotes a theme from the Russian Mass for the Dead suggests that he was preparing for his own death which occurred only 9 days after the premiere of the symphony. Evidence of such an event is extremely slim. And does it really matter to us today?

 

The more we learn of the life of the great composers the more we realize how, outside of their art, their deficiencies of common human beings and of human society hindered and shortened their lives.

 

One can fantasize about having the might to travel to the past with today's experience and plenty of modern medicines to befriend and influence the lives of Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Tchaikovsky and some others, to allow their lives to extend together with their creative work.  But life is what it is, and death is a big equalizer.  I think that we should be satisfied to live in an era that exists AFTER their lifetime and is so filled with technology that we can enjoy endlessly the great music they created.

 

One can discover something new everyday, and so I learned about Mozart's early opera "Mitrigate, re di Ponto" , which he composed in 1770 when he was a 14 year old kid !!!

 

Here is a duetto "Se viver non degg'io" from this opera.   It has all the characteristics of a Mozart aria:

 

   

[InBangkok]

On 11/9/2021 at 12:27 AM, Steve5380 said:

One can fantasize about having the might to travel to the past with today's experience and plenty of modern medicines to befriend and influence the lives of Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Tchaikovsky and some others, to allow their lives to extend together with their creative work.  But life is what it is, and death is a big equalizer. 

One of the great questions that can never be answered, alas. What would those great composers, writers and painters have produced had their lives not been cut short? And this question always seems to be allied to another: was the tragedy, torment, sadness in their lives essential to their having produced great works of art? To these, we can perhaps add another: how much did being a homosexual affect their art, if anything?

 

Questions impossible to answer. Gogol was one of Russia's great writers and, like Tchaikovsky, also gay. But unlike Tchaikovsky, he revered the Tsarist regime and accepted that he could not live the life of a homosexual, however hidden. Many believe that these attempts to suppress his emotions and conceal his inclinations led to the breakdown that ultimately ruined his art and destroyed himself. He died aged just 42.

 

I think we can say without question that Benjamin Britten's major operas are definitely influenced by his sexuality. It is impossible not to find this as an essential element in Billy Budd and Peter Grimes, for example. The one exception is probably Handel - probably because it is not known definitely that he was gay. The evidence for his being gay is said to be especially evident in his more than 100 cantatas which I admit I do not know. These were written from the time he arrived in Italy to just before getting his own house in London in 1723 (now the Handel Museum). Some are written without gendered pronouns making it unclear to whom the singer is referring. What we do know is that many of Handel's patrons at the time and who gave him accommodation when these cantatas were written were gay - Lord Burlington, the architect William Kent, Cardinal Benedetto Pamphili (who may have been a lover) and the brothers Gian Gastone and Ferdinand Medici. The writer Ellen T. Harris, a former singer and MIT professor, is the main proponent of Handel being gay. True or not, I do not see any evidence of this in the Handel operas I know.

 

Trivia. About 20 years ago, I went to the Handel House in London to see a fascinating exhibition about Handel and the castrati. Getting out at the correct address in Brook Street, I saw the blue circular plaque on the wall awarded to prominent people who have lived in the United Kingdom. It listed his name and the period he lived there. About to walk in, I heard a very loud voice shout "Oy!" I looked round. It was the cab driver who shouted "Wrong house. It's next door." I looked and saw another blue plaque, but that one said "Jimi Hendrix lived here!" Philistine!! LOL

Edited November 9, 2021 by InBangkok

[singalion]

On 11/9/2021 at 12:06 AM, InBangkok said:

his most famous opera is Queen of Spades. This is frequently performed around the world.

 

On 11/9/2021 at 12:06 AM, InBangkok said:

As to the manner of his death, the official reason was that he drank a glass of unboiled water and contracted cholera. Yet many question why he would do this when he would have been perfectly well aware that there was a cholera epidemic in St. Petersburg and unboiled water would almost always lead to death.

 

Assuming he was not the only homosexual that ended his life with suicide...

 

The silly part is that after all censorship, Putin takes him now as evidence that Russia is not homophobic...

 

Russia’s pride in composer Pyotr Tchaikovsky, even though he was gay, is proof that the country does not discriminate against homosexuals, President Vladimir Putin said on Wednesday (2013).

 

 

Queen of Spades will be performed in April 2022 at same location and conductor during the Baden Baden Easter Music Festival.

 

Kirill Petrenko and the Berliner Philharmoniker will be presenting a new interpretation of Tchaikovsky's opera The Queen of Spades and key works by Igor Stravinsky in 2022.

 

https://www.festspielhaus.de/en/events/p-i-tschaikowsky-pique-dame

P.I. Tchaikovsky: The queen of spades

Berliner Philharmoniker

Imagine the following: a countess, who happens to be the grandmother of your sweetheart, possesses the mysterious ability to win at any game of cards. You are Hermann, an outsider. How far will you go to wrest this secret from her? What do you hope to obtain from this source of profit? Power? Fame? Money? Or even love? This is the starting point for Tchaikovsky's The Queen of Spades. The opera was written during probably the most difficult period in Tchaikovsky's life, when he himself was already beginning to sense how hard he would have to work for his own happiness. Now it is Kirill Petrenko together with Moshe Leiser and Patrice Caurier who will be reshuffling the cards.

 

They will be performing another of his operas:

P.I. Tchaikovsky: Iolanta

Opera in Concert; Sonya Yoncheva, Kirill Petrenko, Berliner Philharmoniker

It was in the newspaper that Tchaikovsky happened to read about Iolanta, a fairy tale in which the beautiful but blind Princess Iolanta is kept by her father in an idyllic garden, shielded from the trials and tribulations of the world. Purportedly to protect her, he keeps her in ignorance of her blindness. Only her love for the young Vaudémont finally brings light into her life. Tchaikovsky was immediately struck by the “poetry and originality” of the story. Iolanta occupies an outstanding place in his oeuvre and is unfortunately only rarely performed in our day – the last time in Baden-Baden was in 2009. Now it is Sonya Yoncheva who will bring hope and optimism and allow us to experience the world with different eyes (and ears).

 

 

... which means under Petrenko they are doing most of Tschaikowsky's operas for the Baden Baden performances.

 

The concert halls / opera houses are having a backlog of operas due to the Covid pandemic as plenty of concerts/ operas had not been performed in 2020 and early this year.

 

 

[InBangkok]

I have seen Queen of Spades with the Mariinsky Company conducted by Gergiev at the Hong Kong Arts Festival some years ago. But I have not seen Iolanta and hope it will be streamed. Even though it will only be a concert version, I am sure it will be worth hearing. Petrenko is a wonderful opera conductor.

[Steve5380]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:43 PM, InBangkok said:

One of the great questions that can never be answered, alas. What would those great composers, writers and painters have produced had their lives not been cut short? And this question always seems to be allied to another: was the tragedy, torment, sadness in their lives essential to their having produced great works of art? To these, we can perhaps add another: how much did being a homosexual affect their art, if anything?

 

 

You are right that these questions don't have realistic answers.

 

We have zero choice of the time and place we are born.  So one consolation to the reality of nature that their lives were cut short is that we might have been born before them, like in the 15th century, when none of their precious work existed.  Or we might have been born in some place where classical music is totally unknown.  So let's cherish what we have.

 

I think that there is little evidence that suffering, like tragedy, torment, sadness lead to higher quality art.  Mozart was not tormented when I wrote some fantastic music as a child and adolescent,  Mendelssohn also didn't have much tragedy in his life.  And Bach?  what can be counted as tragedy except the fact that he had so many children? 

 

The serious music we have today is fantastic.  I'm not so sure how music will evolve from now.  I don't see a future in atonal music or other "funny" music.  The golden era of music may have passed already, perhaps for many centuries.  One future benefit though I think it will be that sexual orientation will become a non-issue.  Gay or straight... no effect on art.

 

But... why worry?  In 20 or 30 or 40 years not much will change,  and after that...  music won't reach an extracorporeal soul without ears.

[InBangkok]

On 11/9/2021 at 11:21 PM, Steve5380 said:

But... why worry?  In 20 or 30 or 40 years not much will change,  and after that...  music won't reach an extracorporeal soul without ears.

No need for us to worry. The chances are that within 40 years many of us will no longer be around to find out how music evolves. But of one thing we can be certain - classical music and opera (as we know it) will continue to evolve. It has done so ever since the art form was invented by a group of music lovers in Florence around 1597. Maybe Monteverdi would have been shocked by the operas of Gluck and Mozart, just as Mozart might have been shocked when confronted with The Rake's Progress or The Turn of the Screw. We cannot know. 

 

On 11/9/2021 at 3:43 PM, singalion said:

The silly part is that after all censorship, Putin takes him now as evidence that Russia is not homophobic...

I suspect that statement was made for the benefit of the foreign media. Within Russia, the fact that Tchaikovsky was gay is still played down and rarely mentioned.

 

I really wonder what Putin would say about Diaghilev and Russia's famous gay dancers, like arguably the best male dancer the world has ever seen, Vaslav Nijinsky. Diaghilev lived in Tsarist Russia, was openly very gay, cruised St. Petersburg's parks and swapped lovers with his coterie of rich gay friends. We know that the wealthy aristocratic playboy Price Lvov, alerted by one of the Mariinsky male dancers (for a fee no doubt) of the arrival from the provinces of the young Nijinsky, took the teenager under his wing and into his bed. He then showered Nijinsky and his family with all manner of gifts and riches. But being a member of Diaghilev's clique, there came a time when Lvov lent him to Diaghilev for a few nights. Realising that Diaghilev and his contacts could better help his career, Nijinsky ditched Prince Lvov and moved in with Diaghilevl Soon the older impresario had an almost Svengali-like hold on his 20-year old protege.

 

Although the Mariinsky's principal male dancer and a huge audience draw, Nijinsky joined Diaghilev's first season of Les Ballets Russes in Paris. It was there he became a sensation. He electrified Paris with his extraordinary leaps when he seemed suspended in mid-air and his supreme emotional involvement in his roles. Some assume Nijinsky could have been bisexual but he was all but hoodwinked into marriage. Immediately fired by a furious Diaghilev, his career quickly went downhill. He realised his marriage had been a disastrous mistake and started to suffer from schizophrenia. The world's greatest dancer spent the remaining 23 years of his life in asylums. Tragic! Do Russian history books even mention the homosexual cliques that existed at that time? Doubtful!

[Steve5380]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:50 PM, InBangkok said:

 

 But of one thing we can be certain - classical music and opera (as we know it) will continue to evolve. It has done so ever since the art form was invented by a group of music lovers in Florence around 1597. Maybe Monteverdi would have been shocked by the operas of Gluck and Mozart, just as Mozart might have been shocked when confronted with The Rake's Progress or The Turn of the Screw. We cannot know. 

 

 

What you wrote seems logical,  but experience has taught me different.

 

Even as a little child I was enchanted with the music of Mozart, his sonatas, his concerts, his symphonies, even the music of his operas  (I didn't care for singing then).  Monteverdi must have had a much wider musical education than that little Steve,  so why would he not be equally enchanted with Mozart's music,  ALL of it?

 

If Mozart could resuscitate today and attend a performance of The Turn of the Screw,  there is little probability that he would be shocked.  He may not have been shocked by anything.  Instead, he would listen attentively, laughing his lungs out at the mish-mash "music" made by decent instruments.  He would get some new ideas of scenery and dealing with singing,  and his mind would turn wild with thoughts about converting the mish-mash into something decent, like he did with that little piece Salieri wrote "in his honor" in Amadeus.  In fact,  what we need today is a modern Mozart who has listened to all the classical, romantic, modern music and is ready to compose something decent, pleasing, emotional, that lifts the spirits and inspires admiration in future honest listeners. And who is not shy to say about the music of Britten and other recent composers:  "but the emperor has no clothes"  

.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Steve5380

[singalion]

On 11/10/2021 at 11:50 AM, InBangkok said:

But of one thing we can be certain - classical music and opera (as we know it) will continue to evolve. It has done so ever since the art form was invented by a group of music lovers in Florence around 1597. Maybe Monteverdi would have been shocked by the operas of Gluck and Mozart, just as Mozart might have been shocked when confronted with The Rake's Progress or The Turn of the Screw. We cannot know. 

 

But I guess you forgot a major point!

 

The music might be still there, but there is a huge decline in young people taking up classical instruments. The usual countries that have created these composing master minds has a sharp decline in instrumental specialists who can still match the required talent to play the instruments.

Currently, many musicians are filled with people from Eastern Europe (just take a look also what countries the musicians at the Singapore Symphony Orchestra originate from...) and a few other parts of the world.

There might be only a few orchestras with world class musicians in 50 years. this will cause a fight from the opera houses and orchestras for the best. Probably at a certain stage nobody will be able to present the talent to play certain instruments.

 

Actually, it would be a good perspective for a young person to take up playing any instrument successfully and with the required talent, as these people will be very wanted at a certain point. 

 

Despite being optimistic in most of my parts I sense a negative outlook for classical music from the perspective of fewer people taking up playing a classical instrument in the future.

 

[InBangkok]

On 11/11/2021 at 2:15 PM, singalion said:

The music might be still there, but there is a huge decline in young people taking up classical instruments

 

Currently, many musicians are filled with people from Eastern Europe (just take a look also what countries the musicians at the Singapore Symphony Orchestra originate from...) and a few other parts of the world.

That may be true in the west but in Asia the numbers taking up piano, violin and other instruments is increasing greatly. 7 years ago there were an estimated 40 million kids in China learning the piano. By 2012 the country produced 76.9% of the global market for pianos.

 

As far as orchestras filled with musicians from eastern Europe, you are surely talking only about the Singapore Symphony and the Malaysian Philharmonic, although the latter seems recently to have put a lot of its musicians on part time terms. Those musicians were only engaged because they play for lower salaries. When the Malaysian Philharmonic started in the mid-1990s, the orchestra had to be filled with dozens of  eastern Europeans. In Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Thailand I cannot think of even a handful of musicians from Eastern Europe.

 

Generally speaking, the number of Asian string players outstrips orchestral demand. Woodwind and brass playing is mostly not yet up to western standards but it is getting there. 

 

I think you should also look at the orchestras in Europe and North America. Most have at least several Asian musicians in their ranks. For example, the Chicago Symphony has no less than 14 string players of Asian descent including 3 of the 4 concertmasters. 4 violinists of Asian descent are in the Berlin Philharmonic, including one of the 3 concertmasters. The best Asian instrumentalists move west where they can work with the best conductors and soloists and get the bast salaries. Because of covid, players in the New York Philharmonic recently accepted pay cuts. But the lowest salary is still just over US$150,000. Los Angeles Philharmonic players get a minimum of $154,000. Pre-covd, the minimum salary in the Boston Symphony was $162,000. Of course instrumental players may not be able or may not wish to move from their home base. The base rate in the SSO is around US$50,000-$60,000.

[Steve5380]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:15 AM, singalion said:

 

The music might be still there, but there is a huge decline in young people taking up classical instruments. The usual countries that have created these composing master minds has a sharp decline in instrumental specialists who can still match the required talent to play the instruments.

Currently, many musicians are filled with people from Eastern Europe (just take a look also what countries the musicians at the Singapore Symphony Orchestra originate from...) and a few other parts of the world.

There might be only a few orchestras with world class musicians in 50 years. this will cause a fight from the opera houses and orchestras for the best. Probably at a certain stage nobody will be able to present the talent to play certain instruments.

 

Actually, it would be a good perspective for a young person to take up playing any instrument successfully and with the required talent, as these people will be very wanted at a certain point. 

 

Despite being optimistic in most of my parts I sense a negative outlook for classical music from the perspective of fewer people taking up playing a classical instrument in the future.

 

 

Fortunately the outlook is not so pessimistic. 

 

Even if only one person in a thousand would learn to play well a musical instrument, this in a population of 7 billion comes to 7 million instrumentalists.  And if only one in a thousand instrumentalists plays sufficiently well to be a soloist, we have seven thousand soloists.  Of course, it is not required that all members of an orchestra have the capacity to be soloists.  So there might not be a shortage of orchestra players, that is,  orchestras in the future. 

 

Musical talent is universal, so it is not necessary that a large number of musicians come from the European countries where the music was created and was tradition.  Like @InBangkok pointed out, the cultivation of serious music has shifted significantly to Asia.   This culture of music also pops up in unexpected places,  like El Sistema in Venezuela.  Excellent musicians are produced...  from the slums. 

 

The musical profession is also influenced by offer and demand.  With modern technology there are many new sources of entertainment that did not exist in the past.  Instead of going to serious concerts and operas, people have other events they can enjoy.  And if not events,  television and the Internet offer much entertainment at home. The treasure of recorded music and movies is always increasing, they are omnipresent, and they won't go away. 

 

The proportion of talented people in our race surely does not change.  But the perspectives do.  A young person today has many favorable options to dedicate his efforts besides the discipline of learning to play well an instrument.  And more than ever it is true that to make a good living as an artist one has to be an outstanding artist.  Musicians who make a good salary playing in an orchestra have to be "outstanding" as compared to simple amateurs.  But other occupations that offer similar or better good livings are not so demanding.  A mediocre doctor makes a lot of money,  the same as a mediocre lawyer, a mediocre engineer, a mediocre banker, a mediocre plumber, a mediocre air conditioner service person, a mediocre politician, a horrible politician.

 

Even in our modern life, culture has not disappeared.  A child with talent may still be drawn to play an instrument.  And if the talent is very high, he will be drawn into music and eventually become a musician because he wants this by heart.   

[InBangkok]

On 11/11/2021 at 2:15 PM, singalion said:

Despite being optimistic in most of my parts I sense a negative outlook for classical music from the perspective of fewer people taking up playing a classical instrument in the future.

You only have to look at the number of students enrolled in conservatories around the world to realise that the present oversupply of instrumentalists can only increase - at least in the short term. Anyone studying music has really only three primary options - becoming a soloist, performing in an orchestra (or as a freelance musician in orchestras) or teaching. If you examine the numbers applying for auditions when vacancies arise in almost any orchestra, it's easy to tell that there are just too few vacancies and too many musicians.

 

The numbers who can make it as soloists is vastly smaller - and they tend to get smaller as they age. Not physically and not, of course, for the greats. But take a superb violinist like Cho Liang-lin. 35 years ago he was a member of the Isaac Stern mafia and playing regularly, not only concerts and recitals but also making wonderfully reviewed recordings and performing in chamber ensembles with Stern, Yo-Yo Ma, Nobuko Imai etc. Now 61 he performs relatively few concerts. Yet Musical America named him its Instrumentalist of the Year in 2000. Since 2006 he spends much of his time as a Professor at Rice University.

 

Roughly the same is true of Midori who was a child prodigy. Although she still plays quite often, like Cho a lot less than before. Since 2004 she has been a Professor of Violin and spends a lot more time teaching. 35 years ago Nadja Salerrno Sonnenberg was booked everywhere. Now at 60 she is all but forgotten.

 

Ironically Midori's brother Ryu Goto is a fabulous player, but he just cannot get his chance to break into the big time apart from in Japan - even though he lives in America. All these instrumentalists play on Stradivarius or Guarnerius instruments.

 

As for those only wishing to become teachers, God bless them. As we know, though, music in schools in being cut back in many countries. So that leaves private teachers to take up the slack.

 

I am also vastly impressed with El Sistema and its achievements. The fact that the youngest ever musician to join the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra is an El Sistema graduate is amazing. That the El System principle has been adopted by some other countries is also a mark of its success.

[Steve5380]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:15 AM, singalion said:

 

Despite being optimistic in most of my parts I sense a negative outlook for classical music from the perspective of fewer people taking up playing a classical instrument in the future.

 

 

Serious music will always be cultivated.

 

One reason is that...  it is such a good deal!  To the pleasure of sex, the pleasure of food,  the pleasure of alcohol and many drugs, for many people who know about it, it gets added the pleasure of good music.

 

And good music is practically FREE!  All it takes to enjoy it in a stationary place is to have a computer and an Internet connection.  With this alone and some good headphones one can listen endlessly to the best music in the world.  And likewise it is possible to do it with a mobile device like a cellphone or a MP3 player, using ear buds.  Nothing to pay!  No need to buy CDs, DVDs, tickets to concert halls, and it is much, much safer and infinitely cheaper and safer than going to rock concerts (think of Travis Scott's mega-event in Houston).

 

And there is also total freedom to choose the kind of good music that one enjoys. To hear music that is hundreds of years old is totally accepted and encouraged,  the same as to reject modern music.  One does not need to be under the influence of music critics, "experts", fanatics,  and one is not influenced by types of music advertised in the media trying to convince us to buy this or that music.

 

And if there is a desire of the heart to learn to play an instrument, this should not be prohibitive.  There have always been plenty of teachers and instruments to learn to play. Today it is even better.  If short of resources, there are inexpensive keyboards and even electronic pianos,  and one can teach oneself the sol-fa and music reading with the help of books and the Internet. 

[InBangkok]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

And good music is practically FREE!  All it takes to enjoy it in a stationary place is to have a computer and an Internet connection.

You have been beating this drum for almost as long as I can remember. Fair enough. It is your choice. As you know it is not mine, but I see no point in taking that topic further. I hope you will agree.

 

But surely you realise that the logical conclusion of FREE music on the internet is that live music will die. If everyone were only to listen to the classical music that exists on the internet, why would there be any need to go to concerts and operas? And if there are no concerts and operas, there is no audience for concerts and operas. And if there is no audience, there are no funds. As a result orchestras and opera companies die out. What the world is left with is a treasure trove (and yes, I accept it is such) of recorded music that will never change. No new symphonic interpretations, no new concerto interpretations with exciting young soloists, no refreshing opera productions. And I certainly don't mean of regie theatre which generally leaves me cold . . . I need not go on.

 

Whether we like it or not, at the root of the music business is money. Originally it was funded by the desire of European ecclesiatical dioceses and the multitude of princely courts vying with each other for the best ensembles and works by new composers. Wealthy individuals played their part. Patronage was all . Money was basically material. They had plenty of it. Without it, we would have had no Josquin, Bach, no Haydn, no Mozart, no Beethoven, no Rimsky Korsakov, no Borodin, no Tchaikovsky, precious little Wagner. I need not go on.

 

Over time, funding - at least in Europe - became in part more a responsibility of the governments of much larger countries which had been formed out of the smaller ones. In America it was as result of the wave of European immigrants in the 19th century - largely but not exclusively wealthy Jewish families - who wanted to see an orchestra in their towns and cities as a matter of civic pride. Music in America only exists because of private donors and philanthropic Foundations. 

 

Going back to youtube, imagine you were back in the first decade of the 19th century but you had a computer and youtube (a far stretch, I realise, and it requires considerable suspension of belief but hear me out). You would never be able to hear Bach's St. Matthew Passion because it had laid dormant for many decades. You would not have heard Cosi fan tutte for the same reason. For all we know, the next Bach or Mozart may be about to appear. The musical world works in weird and wonderful ways. Many thought Beethoven could never be bettered. Many thought Wagner had brought classical music to its peak. Many thought neoclassicism was the answer to the bombast of Wagner. Some thought serialism was the way forward. Now we are getting back to more tonal music with some differences. We cannot know what lies ahead. To cut the future off before it happens is to die.

[Steve5380]

On 11/13/2021 at 8:45 PM, InBangkok said:

You have been beating this drum for almost as long as I can remember. Fair enough. It is your choice. As you know it is not mine, but I see no point in taking that topic further. I hope you will agree.

 

But surely you realise that the logical conclusion of FREE music on the internet is that live music will die. If everyone were only to listen to the classical music that exists on the internet, why would there be any need to go to concerts and operas? And if there are no concerts and operas, there is no audience for concerts and operas. And if there is no audience, there are no funds. As a result orchestras and opera companies die out. What the world is left with is a treasure trove (and yes, I accept it is such) of recorded music that will never change. No new symphonic interpretations, no new concerto interpretations with exciting young soloists, no refreshing opera productions. And I certainly don't mean of regie theatre which generally leaves me cold . . . I need not go on.

 

Whether we like it or not, at the root of the music business is money. Originally it was funded by the desire of European ecclesiatical dioceses and the multitude of princely courts vying with each other for the best ensembles and works by new composers. Wealthy individuals played their part. Patronage was all . Money was basically material. They had plenty of it. Without it, we would have had no Josquin, Bach, no Haydn, no Mozart, no Beethoven, no Rimsky Korsakov, no Borodin, no Tchaikovsky, precious little Wagner. I need not go on.

 

Over time, funding - at least in Europe - became in part more a responsibility of the governments of much larger countries which had been formed out of the smaller ones. In America it was as result of the wave of European immigrants in the 19th century - largely but not exclusively wealthy Jewish families - who wanted to see an orchestra in their towns and cities as a matter of civic pride. Music in America only exists because of private donors and philanthropic Foundations. 

 

Going back to youtube, imagine you were back in the first decade of the 19th century but you had a computer and youtube (a far stretch, I realise, and it requires considerable suspension of belief but hear me out). You would never be able to hear Bach's St. Matthew Passion because it had laid dormant for many decades. You would not have heard Cosi fan tutte for the same reason. For all we know, the next Bach or Mozart may be about to appear. The musical world works in weird and wonderful ways. Many thought Beethoven could never be bettered. Many thought Wagner had brought classical music to its peak. Many thought neoclassicism was the answer to the bombast of Wagner. Some thought serialism was the way forward. Now we are getting back to more tonal music with some differences. We cannot know what lies ahead. To cut the future off before it happens is to die.

 

What you recognize as me beating a drum is not any opposition I have to live music, but my belief that we should have the freedom of choice.  For the same time I have been beating my drum, you have been praising the experience of listening to live music as something far superior to listening to recorded music.  With this you don't take into account the circumstances that lead to the preference of the one or the other.

 

And our disputes don't invalidate at all the fact that the enjoyment of classical, romantic music is practically free.  If you are a wealthy person who can enjoy any concert in any part of the world you want,  then this is immaterial.  But the majority of people cannot afford that luxury.  I have been writing about the pure essence of enjoying music, the effect it makes in our soul and heart through the works of the musical center in our brain.  I put aside other niceties of hearing live music in a concert,  like one's preparation and the trip to the concert hall, the good time finding and taking our seats,  the exit during intermission to drink a glass of wine and chat with other music lowers, the happy conclusion, the nice late dinner after the concert, etc. etc. 

 

There is a visual part that adds to the music in a concert, and surely in an opera.  Until recently we were satisfied with just the music, but technology made it possible to include the visual in a recorded, remote experience.  And frankly, the visual in the recorded video is often superior to what the audience sees.  To see the videos from the 18th Chopin Competition the other days I find to be proof of this.  I was one of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of viewers of this competition, unable to travel to Warsaw to see it in person.  And I too saw it for free!

 

Isn't there something similar going on with theater and movies?  The viewing of movies by our society is much, much, much more frequent than the attendance to theater plays and musicals.  This has not lead to the death of theater or musicals.  And the majority of people now see the movies also from home, for free or nearly free with subscriptions to some services.  Result: much more enjoyment, satisfaction, experience of life than what existed before recorded music and video appeared. 

 

The situation that leads to my optimistic writing has not led to the death of live music.  And there are no signs that this will happen.  Perhaps there is less live music today than what would exist in the absence of recordings and technology to easily use them.  But then the size of human population has exploded, and it is not necessary that seven billion people go after live music. 

 

There are many people like me who very rarely go to hear live music but who hear recorded music all the time. And among us there is no lack of people with musical vocation who play an instrument and MAKE live music. I see nothing wrong with this. 

 

[singalion]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

Serious music

 

What? 

 

Other types of music are not serious? 

 

 

[singalion]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

And good music is practically FREE!  All it takes to enjoy it in a stationary place is to have a computer and an Internet connection.  With this alone and some good headphones one can listen endlessly to the best music in the world.  And likewise it is possible to do it with a mobile device like a cellphone or a MP3 player, using ear buds.  Nothing to pay!  No need to buy CDs, DVDs, tickets to concert halls, and it is much, much safer and infinitely cheaper and safer than going to rock concerts (think of Travis Scott's mega-event in Houston).

 

Nothing is for free! 

What you think is free is a) commercialised,

b) requires electricity and other natural resources,

c) not forgetting the manufacture of Computers, screens and speakers. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/16/2021 at 3:01 PM, singalion said:

 

Nothing is for free! 

What you think is free is a) commercialised,

b) requires electricity and other natural resources,

c) not forgetting the manufacture of Computers, screens and speakers. 

 

 

Plenty of music is commercialized by others.  One does not need to have shares in a recording studio.  Plenty of other interested people like to profit from the music industry.

 

Electricity comes to the home not to listen to music but to power our sources of light,  the refrigerator,  the air conditioning (plenty of electricity for this).  The electricity that a little MP3 player requires is insignificant.

 

Computers and television sets and their screens and speakers are acquired for other reasons than listening to music,  like using the Internet for information, data processing, communication,  watching TV to get the news, series, movies, etc. 

 

In a modern functional home,  the cost of adding the enjoyment of serious music is...  practically free!