Opera appreciations and discussion

[Steve5380]

On 11/16/2021 at 2:56 PM, singalion said:

 

What? 

 

Other types of music are not serious? 

 

 

 

I use the name "serious music" to generalize the combination of baroque, classical, romantic and some post-romantic music...  I am not ready to include modern, atonal music as "serious".

 

Would you consider as serious the rapper music like what Travis Scott plays?   Much of folkloric music and some jazz (also folkloric originally) can be considered serious, but this is not the music we usually discuss here.

.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:16 AM, Steve5380 said:

1. I use the name "serious music" to generalize the combination of baroque, classical, romantic and some post-romantic music...  I am not ready to include modern, atonal music as "serious".

 

2. Would you consider as serious the rapper music like what Travis Scott plays?   Much of folkloric music and some jazz (also folkloric originally) can be considered serious, but

 

3. this is not the music we usually discuss here.

1. You may not be ready to include atonal music as serious, but other posters are.

 

2. Has Travis Scott written an opera? After all this is a thread about opera.

 

3. So you are the arbiter of what it is permissible to discuss here in a thread you did not start?

[Steve5380]

On 11/16/2021 at 7:30 PM, InBangkok said:

1. You may not be ready to include atonal music as serious, but other posters are.

 

2. Has Travis Scott written an opera? After all this is a thread about opera.

 

3. So you are the arbiter of what it is permissible to discuss here in a thread you did not start?

 

1.  Every poster has a right to include or not what he feels like doing.   

 

2. I have no idea if Travis Scott has written an opera.  Have you?

 

3. I am not an arbiter of any sorts here.  I merely explain that my "serious music" applies to the music discussed here, and not to the infinite set of music in all the world for all times.   I think that this is clear enough.

[InBangkok]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:36 AM, Steve5380 said:

2. I have no idea if Travis Scott has written an opera.  Have you?

 

3. I am not an arbiter of any sorts here.  I merely explain that my "serious music" applies to the music discussed here, and not to the infinite set of music in all the world for all times.   I think that this is clear enough.

2. He has not.

 

3, You are wrong. The music discussed in this thread has included atonal operatic music. That is what is clear.

[Steve5380]

On 11/16/2021 at 7:39 PM, InBangkok said:

2. He has not.

 

3, You are wrong. The music discussed in this thread has included atonal operatic music. That is what is clear.

 

2. You must have some insight into the inner circle of Travis Scott.  Good for you!

 

3.  I am not wrong.  Atonal sounds have been discussed in this thread,  but I don't consider them to be serious music, perhaps not even music since they don't include the elements of the traditional definition of music:  melody and harmony.

[InBangkok]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:56 AM, Steve5380 said:

2. You must have some insight into the inner circle of Travis Scott.  Good for you!

 

3.  I am not wrong.  Atonal sounds have been discussed in this thread,  but I don't consider them to be serious music, perhaps not even music since they don't include the elements of the traditional definition of music:  melody and harmony.

2. Not at all. You deviate from the subject - as you frequently do. There is no opera by Travis Scott. Fact! If you do not believe that, then kindly prove it.

 

3.  You are indeed wrong. Since you seem not to have noticed it, classical and serious music has many components apart from merely melody and harmony. Indeed, if rhythm is not also an element, it would not be music at all. You also forget about phrasing, texture, counterpoint and form. Generally most will agree that classical/serious music is subdivided into specific periods - Medieval, Early and Late Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modernist and Contemporary. They all are part of the "traditional definition" of classical/serious music.

[Steve5380]

On 11/17/2021 at 4:18 AM, InBangkok said:

2. Not at all. You deviate from the subject - as you frequently do. There is no opera by Travis Scott. Fact! If you do not believe that, then kindly prove it.

 

3.  You are indeed wrong. Since you seem not to have noticed it, classical and serious music has many components apart from merely melody and harmony. Indeed, if rhythm is not also an element, it would not be music at all. You also forget about phrasing, texture, counterpoint and form. Generally most will agree that classical/serious music is subdivided into specific periods - Medieval, Early and Late Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modernist and Contemporary. They all are part of the "traditional definition" of classical/serious music.

 

2. I stated from the beginning that I have no idea if Travis Scott has written an opera.  You immediately stated that he has not.  So it behooves you to prove that he has not.

 

3. No problem with rhythm.  Even a heartbeat has a rhythm.  And it is not music.   But music SHOULD have melody and if more than one tone,  harmony.  Phrasing, texture, counterpoint and form are not essential.  But harmony is,  because it leads to peace, wellbeing, joy,  while continuous dissonance does not, instead causing discomfort and irritation.  But this is my opinion, not the one of someone who is a masochist and enjoys sounds that create suffering.

.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 11/18/2021 at 3:30 AM, Steve5380 said:

2. I stated from the beginning that I have no idea if Travis Scott has written an opera.  You immediately stated that he has not.  So it behooves you to prove that he has not.

 

3. No problem with rhythm.  Even a heartbeat has a rhythm.  And it is not music.   But music SHOULD have melody and if more than one tone,  harmony.  Phrasing, texture, counterpoint and form are not essential.  But harmony is,  because it leads to peace, wellbeing, joy,  while continuous dissonance does not, instead causing discomfort and irritation.  But this is my opinion, not the one of someone who is a masochist and enjoys sounds that create suffering.

.

2. Not at all. How does one prove a negative? But for your information Travis Scott is a rapper and there is no rap opera. Absolutely none! And remember it was you brought up Travis Scott in this opera thread.

 

3. As an observation, you write in a manner very similar to my first piano teacher. Not that she wrote - she spoke and acted. An elderly spinster, her drawing room looked as though it had been lifted lock, stock and barrel from the Victorian era nearly a century earlier (that is just background). She always wore a long, black dress. In giving lessons, she would sit at the upper end of the  piano, a ruler in her hands. The slightest error and she would rap your knuckles. She would always find something wrong whether in the actual notes or the interpretation of those simple pieces. She took all the pleasure out of music. I lasted a year and my father had the sense to take me to another teacher. Mrs. Jolly (yes, that was her name) was the total opposite. A small, rotund woman, music was her joy and she communicated that joy to all her pupils.

 

Modern and contemporary music is enjoyed by ordinary music lovers and certainly not by "masochists" who enjoy sounds that "create suffering".  You are one set of ears amongst billions. Accept that other people enjoy it and do not rubbish it every time.

[InBangkok]

On 4/13/2021 at 10:13 PM, Steve5380 said:

I have much respect for Gustavo Dudamel,  and infinite respect for the Venezuelan program "El Sistema" (the system) which he helped bring forward.  I am sure that he will be an excellent music director of the Paris Opera.  After directing so many little children, he will have perfect ability to direct moody Prima Donnas, ha ha.  I could be motivated to attend an opera performance if he is the conductor!

 

I cannot hide my enthusiasm for a program that brings poor children together and teaches them music, and the best way to learn music is to play an instrument.  El Sistema gives the kids the instrument, and teaches them to play it. 

You have several time expressed your admiration for the Venezuelan programme El Sistema. I have, too. Indeed major conductors like Claudio Abbado and Sir Simon Rattle were similarly impressed. But it seems there was quite a bit going on behind the scenes that nobody knew about.

 

Its co-founder Jose Abreu died some years ago. The other co-founder, Venezuelan novelist Eduardo Cassanova Sucre, has now issued a scathing attack on the organisation and Jose Abreu, accusing him of using it for "unreliable" purposes.

 

He calls Abreu and "opportunist. adult pederast and bad person." He continues, "Its contribution to the musical progress of Venezuela is not significant - I radically regret having served to make it a reality and hopefully the country can forgive my recklessness, that so much damage he did to several young people who were harmed by an opportunist pederast."

 

These allegations are not new. In a 2014 article on Britain's Guardian newspaper, Geoff Baker, a UK academic visited the country specifically to check out El Sistema. "Venezuelan musical and cultural observers told me privately about a different Sistema, one that bore little resemblance to the heart warming story told by the institution itself and the international media."

 

Seen overseas as a beacon of social justice, at home the programme was characterised variously as a cult and a corporation. Although intended for the country's poorest and most vulnerable children, in fact most musicians came from middle class backgrounds. Dudamel earlier described the programme as "a model for a society." "Yes, it's a model," said one musician, "of absolute tyranny . . . and you keep your mouth shut." He also repeats the allegations of sexual abuse within the programme.

 

In 2016 Luigi Mazzocchi who was then concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet Orchestra and who spent 15 years in the Sistema system and is a graduate of the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra, confirmed the points earlier made by Baker. He speaks about the very real atmosphere of fear and retribution directed towards the youngsters and their families. He talks doubt the secretive and retributive nature of El Sistema's administration. 

 

A report the same year by Rhinegold Pubishing in one of it several music magazines goes further and discusses the normalcy of sexual relations between students and teachers.

 

All very strong words. So far there is only silence from its most famous alumnus, Gustavo Dudamel, who surely would be in a position to give a degree of credence or otherwise to these and Sucre's allegations.

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:39 PM, InBangkok said:

2. Not at all. How does one prove a negative? But for your information Travis Scott is a rapper and there is no rap opera. Absolutely none! And remember it was you brought up Travis Scott in this opera thread.

 

3. As an observation, you write in a manner very similar to my first piano teacher. Not that she wrote - she spoke and acted. An elderly spinster, her drawing room looked as though it had been lifted lock, stock and barrel from the Victorian era nearly a century earlier (that is just background). She always wore a long, black dress. In giving lessons, she would sit at the upper end of the  piano, a ruler in her hands. The slightest error and she would rap your knuckles. She would always find something wrong whether in the actual notes or the interpretation of those simple pieces. She took all the pleasure out of music. I lasted a year and my father had the sense to take me to another teacher. Mrs. Jolly (yes, that was her name) was the total opposite. A small, rotund woman, music was her joy and she communicated that joy to all her pupils.

 

Modern and contemporary music is enjoyed by ordinary music lovers and certainly not by "masochists" who enjoy sounds that "create suffering".  You are one set of ears amongst billions. Accept that other people enjoy it and do not rubbish it every time.

 

2. Of course you can prove a negative.  Like: " There can be NO harmony or melody in atonal 'music' (sounds),  because if so they would be tonal and not atonal".  Q.E.D.  

 

There is no rap opera?  I am glad to correct your misinformation.  Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rap_opera

and watch this rap opera "Carmen_a hip hopera".  Yes, it is some Carmen in rap/hip form.  Bizet may even like it:

 

 

 

3.  I don't think I have anything in common with your first piano teacher.  This is exclusively... in your head.

It makes much sense that my opinion of atonal is based on how I perceive it,  not on what "musicologists" say about it. I don't doubt that many, many people enjoy other music and other sounds besides tonal music.  Many enjoy the singing of the birds, for example.  And at this stage in the threads, you should know my opinion and not get so upset about it.  

[InBangkok]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:42 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

2. Of course you can prove a negative.  Like: " There can be NO harmony or melody in atonal 'music' (sounds),  because if so they would be tonal and not atonal".  Q.E.D.  

 

There is no rap opera?  I am glad to correct your misinformation.  Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rap_opera

and watch this rap opera "Carmen_a hip hopera".  Yes, it is some Carmen in rap/hip form.  Bizet may even like it:

That is not an opera. It is described as a musical and was billed as the "first hip-hop musical." One critic described it thus, "this reworking of Bizet's opera into a contemporary, hip-hop musical works quite well, and represents one of the more original recent efforts to create a new form from an old one."

 

A new form! Not opera!

[Steve5380]

On 11/17/2021 at 7:41 PM, InBangkok said:

You have several time expressed your admiration for the Venezuelan programme El Sistema. I have, too. Indeed major conductors like Claudio Abbado and Sir Simon Rattle were similarly impressed. But it seems there was quite a bit going on behind the scenes that nobody knew about.

 

Its co-founder Jose Abreu died some years ago. The other co-founder, Venezuelan novelist Eduardo Cassanova Sucre, has now issued a scathing attack on the organisation and Jose Abreu, accusing him of using it for "unreliable" purposes.

 

He calls Abreu and "opportunist. adult pederast and bad person." He continues, "Its contribution to the musical progress of Venezuela is not significant - I radically regret having served to make it a reality and hopefully the country can forgive my recklessness, that so much damage he did to several young people who were harmed by an opportunist pederast."

 

These allegations are not new. In a 2014 article on Britain's Guardian newspaper, Geoff Baker, a UK academic visited the country specifically to check out El Sistema. "Venezuelan musical and cultural observers told me privately about a different Sistema, one that bore little resemblance to the heart warming story told by the institution itself and the international media."

 

Seen overseas as a beacon of social justice, at home the programme was characterised variously as a cult and a corporation. Although intended for the country's poorest and most vulnerable children, in fact most musicians came from middle class backgrounds. Dudamel earlier described the programme as "a model for a society." "Yes, it's a model," said one musician, "of absolute tyranny . . . and you keep your mouth shut." He also repeats the allegations of sexual abuse within the programme.

 

In 2016 Luigi Mazzocchi who was then concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet Orchestra and who spent 15 years in the Sistema system and is a graduate of the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra, confirmed the points earlier made by Baker. He speaks about the very real atmosphere of fear and retribution directed towards the youngsters and their families. He talks doubt the secretive and retributive nature of El Sistema's administration. 

 

A report the same year by Rhinegold Pubishing in one of it several music magazines goes further and discusses the normalcy of sexual relations between students and teachers.

 

All very strong words. So far there is only silence from its most famous alumnus, Gustavo Dudamel, who surely would be in a position to give a degree of credence or otherwise to these and Sucre's allegations.

 

 

What a pity!   After reading your post I looked up Eduardo Casanova and read some very damaging information about El Sistema, its rulers and the damage they inflict on the Venezuelan youth.  I read that the musical education they impart is very mediocre, and so are the musicians.  That in the gatherings of its orchestras in Caracas the covid-19 is rampant.  That a fantasy of goodness was created that now is difficult to dispute. 

 

We will see how this revelations impact the future of El Sistema.  it is not the first disappointment one encounters with organizations that appear to be so beneficial, so moral, so constructive.  Hopefully the end result will be that the enthusiasm that this organization has created will lead to other organizations that will be authentically moral and positive, probably in places that are not controlled by corrupt governments. 

[Steve5380]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:03 PM, InBangkok said:

That is not an opera. It is described as a musical and was billed as the "first hip-hop musical." One critic described it thus, "this reworking of Bizet's opera into a contemporary, hip-hop musical works quite well, and represents one of the more original recent efforts to create a new form from an old one."

 

A new form! Not opera!

 

This is all splitting hairs!  What is fundamentally different between an opera and a musical?  Some of Mozart's operas have so many recitatives that they could be musicals where the actors instead of speaking like to sing to the tune of a keyboard.

[InBangkok]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:16 AM, Steve5380 said:

This is all splitting hairs!  What is fundamentally different between an opera and a musical? 

Tell that to Broadway audiences! The Broadway musical is a specific genre. Opera is a specific genre.

 

Then the word opera has also been used by certain groups who created what they termed rockopera. The Who's Tommy was the first rockopera and it was followed by several others. But these were concept albums written specially only to be listened to and never intended for the stage. That some later attempted to cash in on the popularity of these albums by mounting a stage version takes nothing away from the fact that they were never intended for stage performance.

[InBangkok]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:10 AM, Steve5380 said:

I read that the musical education they impart is very mediocre, and so are the musicians.

It is indeed very sad. But out of that seeming misery for so many musicians, some gems have appeared. Dudamel is one. Earlier I mentioned one graduate becoming the youngest musician ever to join the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and another who is the concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet Orchestra. I know there are others including Giancarlo Guerro who is Music Director of the Nashville Symphony, Diego Matthew who is Principal Conductor at Venice's La Fenice Opera House, from next season Rafael Payare will become Music Director of the Orchestra Symphinique de Montreal and Giovanni Guzzo not only teaches at London's Royal Academy of Music he is a regular guest concertmaster with Ivan Fischer's marvellous Budapest Festival Orchestra.

[Steve5380]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:29 PM, InBangkok said:

It is indeed very sad. But out of that seeming misery for so many musicians, some gems have appeared. Dudamel is one. Earlier I mentioned one graduate becoming the youngest musician ever to join the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and another who is the concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet Orchestra. I know there are others including Giancarlo Guerro who is Music Director of the Nashville Symphony, Diego Matthew who is Principal Conductor at Venice's La Fenice Opera House, from next season Rafael Payare will become Music Director of the Orchestra Symphinique de Montreal and Giovanni Guzzo not only teaches at London's Royal Academy of Music he is a regular guest concertmaster with Ivan Fischer's marvellous Budapest Festival Orchestra.

 

Well... this is a consolation.  Without El Sistema, these excellent musicians would have never succeeded like they did, instead becoming some street vendors or thugs in Caracas.

[singalion]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:16 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

This is all splitting hairs!  What is fundamentally different between an opera and a musical?  Some of Mozart's operas have so many recitatives that they could be musicals where the actors instead of speaking like to sing to the tune of a keyboard.

 

Don't think it is splitting hairs.

Musicals of the Broadway type don't use the different voices known in classical opera (Soprano, Mezzo, Baritone, ...)

Other than that , musical can contain rock music and not classical music.

Singing style is more like soft rock or Celine Dion type.

Wasn't the first musical , Grease?

Musicals refer to theater play with modern music.

In what musical did you have an orchestra playing classical music???

 

You are insulting opera music by claiming that they are not fundamentally different to musicals.

[Steve5380]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:51 AM, singalion said:

 

Don't think it is splitting hairs.

Musicals of the Broadway type don't use the different voices known in classical opera (Soprano, Mezzo, Baritone, ...)

Other than that , musical can contain rock music and not classical music.

Singing style is more like soft rock or Celine Dion type.

Wasn't the first musical , Grease?

Musicals refer to theater play with modern music.

In what musical did you have an orchestra playing classical music???

 

You are insulting opera music by claiming that they are not fundamentally different to musicals.

 

Are you splitting hairs that were split already?

 

If I am "insulting opera",  let Ms. Opera come and complain to me.

 

Opera was created centuries ago to entertain the good Italian people, with a kind of singing theater, a combination of acting, singing, music, drama and some dance.  Musicals were created to entertain the good Americans with about the same elements.  Why double-split hairs over this? 

 

If I would try to find something that 'insults' opera, this would be Modern Opera. 😄

[InBangkok]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:47 PM, Steve5380 said:

Opera was created centuries ago to entertain the good Italian people, with a kind of singing theater, a combination of acting, singing, music, drama and some dance.  Musicals were created to entertain the good Americans with about the same elements.  Why double-split hairs over this? 

Opera was "invented" by a group of composers and others in Renaissance Florence where the first opera is believed to have been staged in 1597. As an art form it was significantly developed by Monteverdi in Mantua and Venice starting with l'Orfeo ten years later.

 

Musicals as a gerne in America grew out of the success of operettas in Europe and their subsequent development as more popular entertainments through the works of composer/writers like Gilbert and Sullivan. The first real theatrical entertainment marrying music, song, lyrics and dance was probably shows like the Ziegfeld Follies. Stephen Sondheim's superb musical Follies is based on a reunion of an older generation who had taken part in such shows. The lack of a plot line did not matter much. It ws the emergence and popularity of cinema that persuaded producers, composers and lyricists to start creating what we now call the Broadway music with Show Boat arguably being the first major one (although there had been popular melodramas with music for decades).

 

But who is splitting hairs when it was you who wrote this just days ago –

 

On 11/18/2021 at 8:42 AM, Steve5380 said:

There is no rap opera?  I am glad to correct your misinformation.

That example was not a rap opera. It was a movie that happened to include some rap. Similarly rock operas were audio albums. That one or two made it on to the stage does not validate their status as opera!

 

[InBangkok]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:07 AM, Steve5380 said:

Without El Sistema, these excellent musicians would have never succeeded like they did, instead becoming some street vendors or thugs in Caracas.

Another irrational statement! I suppose you reckon that Gustavo Dudamel and other El Sistema graduates who are in the Berlin Philharmonic, the Concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet, the conductors who lead the Nashville Symphony and Venice's glorious La Fenice Opera house  and a host of others who have 'made it' as professional musicians would have become "street vendors or thugs"? That's nonsense.  Besides, as you would have noted from my earlier thread and from your own research, the El System PR machine disguised the fact that most of those in the system came from solid  middle class backgrounds.

[Steve5380]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:23 PM, InBangkok said:

Opera was "invented" by a group of composers and others in Renaissance Florence where the first opera is believed to have been staged in 1597. As an art form it was significantly developed by Monteverdi in Mantua and Venice starting with l'Orfeo ten years later.

 

Musicals as a gerne in America grew out of the success of operettas in Europe and their subsequent development as more popular entertainments through the works of composer/writers like Gilbert and Sullivan. The first real theatrical entertainment marrying music, song, lyrics and dance was probably shows like the Ziegfeld Follies. Stephen Sondheim's superb musical Follies is based on a reunion of an older generation who had taken part in such shows. The lack of a plot line did not matter much. It ws the emergence and popularity of cinema that persuaded producers, composers and lyricists to start creating what we now call the Broadway music with Show Boat arguably being the first major one (although there had been popular melodramas with music for decades).

 

But who is splitting hairs when it was you who wrote this just days ago –

 

That example was not a rap opera. It was a movie that happened to include some rap. Similarly rock operas were audio albums. That one or two made it on to the stage does not validate their status as opera!

 

 

Yes, musicals in America grew out of operettas who grew out of operas, with less pretentions and lower budgets I suppose. It is evident that one does not need to be so picky about an exact definition of 'opera'.  I remember that early in this thread I posted some opinions about the nature of opera which were much contested, which lead me to recall that the word "Opera" comes from the Latin "Opus", which means "work".  So such a general name with wide meanings can tolerate the inclusion of multiple genres.  In today's world,  inclusivity should reign.  I find it is not nice to leave "rap" and "rock" out.

 

I hope you are not trying to start this argument all over again.   

[InBangkok]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, musicals in America grew out of operettas who grew out of operas, with less pretentions and lower budgets I suppose. It is evident that one does not need to be so picky about an exact definition of 'opera'.  I remember that early in this thread I posted some opinions about the nature of opera which were much contested, which lead me to recall that the word "Opera" comes from the Latin "Opus", which means "work".  So such a general name with wide meanings can tolerate the inclusion of multiple genres.  In today's world,  inclusivity should reign.  I find it is not nice to leave "rap" and "rock" out.

 

I hope you are not trying to start this argument all over again.   

This is not an argument. It is fact. When you joined this thread you told members that you were not interested in opera. You really did not like opera but you liked ballet and dance (see what you wrote below). You then did your damnedest to persuade everyone that ballet and dance and even recitals are opera. That was then and remains now total nonsense. Similarly rap opera (should that actually exist) and rock opera have nothing to do with opera as outlined by the thread starter. If you want to expand the generally agreed term for opera performances as presented in the world's Opera Houses, I am sure many will be interested in your views on another thread. Just start one!

 

On 11/8/2020 at 11:19 PM, Steve5380 said:

While I am not much interested in the scene of an opera,  the stage for unattractive singers in costumes to walk around and sing the words from some usually very dumb librettos,  I like the spectacle of dance,  of ballet. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by InBangkok

[InBangkok]

Getting back to the real subject of the thread. One of the greatest scenes from opera of the last century sung by I reckon its greatest exponent. Jon Vickers in a tour de force singing Peter Grimes in a performance recorded at the Royal Opera House conducted by Sir Colin Davis.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/21/2021 at 5:42 AM, InBangkok said:

This is not an argument. It is fact. When you joined this thread you told members that you were not interested in opera. You really did not like opera but you liked ballet and dance (see what you wrote below). You then did your damnedest to persuade everyone that ballet and dance and even recitals are opera. That was then and remains now total nonsense. Similarly rap opera (should that actually exist) and rock opera have nothing to do with opera as outlined by the thread starter. If you want to expand the generally agreed term for opera performances as presented in the world's Opera Houses, I am sure many will be interested in your views on another thread. Just start one!

 

 

Please read again with some glasses what I posted.  I didn't say that I am not interested in opera. What I am not much interested in is the SCENE of opera,  its theatrical component.  But I love much of opera's music. I didn't "do my damnedest" but I simply wrote my opinions.  Your reaction did the damnedest to contradict my opinions,  without much success.   

[heman]

I have this dvd in my dvd library collection. Indeed it was very remarkable scene and i was shaken by his interpretation with Heather Harper in the female lead. I replayed this exactly a month ago and each time i heard this opera again , i realized Jon Vickers is not himself but he is Peter Grimes . Collin Davis did justice to this very challenging piece. 

 

[heman]

Last night i managed to listen to Berg's extraordinary Lulu again . I was very fortunate to watch  it twice on stage - one in Sydney and another in Vienna State Opera House. There are lots of coloratura passages in the lead part and it can be very emotionally drained. It was  a pity that Berg did not complete this amazing opera. 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by heman

[InBangkok]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:37 PM, Steve5380 said:

Please read again with some glasses what I posted.  I didn't say that I am not interested in opera. What I am not much interested in is the SCENE of opera,  its theatrical component.  But I love much of opera's music.

I know what interests you. Opera music is not opera! Opera is a marriage of theatre and opera. Without the dramatic element, it is not opera. You seem to forget what you wrote a day or so ago

 

On 11/20/2021 at 8:47 PM, Steve5380 said:

Opera was created centuries ago to entertain the good Italian people, with a kind of singing theater, a combination of acting, singing, music, drama and some dance

Opera was created as a marriage of drama and music. Without the drama, without the texts, it is not opera. So do not tell me to wear glasses when it is you who should be wearing them!

[Steve5380]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:29 PM, InBangkok said:

Another irrational statement! I suppose you reckon that Gustavo Dudamel and other El Sistema graduates who are in the Berlin Philharmonic, the Concertmaster of the Pennsylvania Ballet, the conductors who lead the Nashville Symphony and Venice's glorious La Fenice Opera house  and a host of others who have 'made it' as professional musicians would have become "street vendors or thugs"? That's nonsense.  Besides, as you would have noted from my earlier thread and from your own research, the El System PR machine disguised the fact that most of those in the system came from solid  middle class backgrounds.

 

The truly irrational statement is yours, calling my statement irrational.  So let me define "irrational" for you:  Not logic or reasonable.  

 

So you can see that what I wrote about the El Sistema musicians is not based on logic, but on information, data.  My data is perhaps a little old, and I have not fully researched the subject.  So it makes sense to assume that without El Sistema these musicians would not have come so far, perhaps they would have stayed in Caracas doing less important work.  How far can a musician come in Venezuela?

 

You probably were born with a golden spoon in your mouth, so you don't understand how circumstances shape a life.  I was born from German refugees who came to Argentina without material possessions.  If it had not been for their high cultural level, which made them save to send me to private schools, and for the generosity of the Argentinian government who made the best university in the land, the Universidad de Buenos Aires, free of tuition, I might have ended perhaps as a car mechanic, a taxi driver, instead of becoming an engineering PhD working in a prestigious engineering center in the US.

 

Perhaps you having landed a job in the commercialization of music you fail to realize that children from solid middle class background can end up as street vendors or worse,  while people from humble origins end up successful. For example, the children of Donald Trump ended up as "worse"  😄

[Steve5380]

On 11/21/2021 at 7:46 AM, heman said:

Last night i managed to listen to Berg's extraordinary Lulu again . I was very fortunate to watch  it twice on stage - one in Sydney and another in Vienna State Opera House. There are lots of coloratura passages in the lead part and it can be very emotionally drained. It was  a pity that Berg did not complete this amazing opera. 

 

 

Contrary to other posters,  I have no objections of you liking and calling "opera" this Lulu from Berg.   I recognize that it is not the worse of atonality, and listening to parts of it left me not emotionally drained but emotionally amused.   I respect your freedom of choice and I don't call you names.   For what concerns me, it can be an Opera, a Operetta,...  but hardly a Music-al;  instead it deserves to be called a Sound-ical.  Sounds that go up and down,  sometimes combine well for an instant, then continue in charming randomness.  The scenes I saw in a video are nice,  and the singers, which quasi-talk  (because true singing has usually some melody) seem serious enough.  So keep enjoying it!   

 

 

On 11/21/2021 at 9:38 AM, InBangkok said:

I know what interests you. Opera music is not opera! Opera is a marriage of theatre and opera. Without the dramatic element, it is not opera. You seem to forget what you wrote a day or so ago

 

Opera was created as a marriage of drama and music. Without the drama, without the texts, it is not opera. So do not tell me to wear glasses when it is you who should be wearing them!

 

So the music of The marriage of Figaro is not a marriage?  And listening to it I am not listening to an Opera?  Do you realize that we can LISTEN only to music, only to sound,  not drama or theater?  Do you know the definition of:

 

LISTEN:  verb:  give one's attention to sound.  So when we listen to an opera we can only listen to its sound.  

 

It is very common to be listening to an opera, and the expression is 100% correct.  So what we listen to is AN OPERA,  even when we listen to just its music.  Ergo -> music of an opera IS OPERA in our perception, and therefore we call it 'opera'!  Q.E.D.

 

You are entitled to your opinions, but you think that I am not entitled to mine,  that you have to fight my opinions.  You need to change this!

Your encyclopedic knowledge of music trivia may not qualify you as an expert in what is rational and logic in music.  Far from it!  You mostly regurgitate some data you have found somewhere, and make observations that don't seem to have originated in the rational centers of your brain.   But it is not my job to judge you.   Enjoy your life.

.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

When @Steve5380 gets confused or others question him, he reverts - as he always does - to dictionary definitions. How boring it all becomes! My post was perfectly clear.

 

As for music trivia, he stated in several posts that he actually enjoyed some and even learned from some. So quit your idiotic comments @Steve5380. And the personal comments are just nonsense.

 

More of the glorious voice of Jon Vickers. Here in part of Tristan. I believe this is the Karajan recording with Helga Dernesch as his Isolde.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:08 PM, InBangkok said:

When @Steve5380 gets confused or others question him, he reverts - as he always does - to dictionary definitions. How boring it all becomes! My post was perfectly clear.

 

As for music trivia, he stated in several posts that he actually enjoyed some and even learned from some. So quit your idiotic comments @Steve5380. And the personal comments are just nonsense.

 

 

How amusing! The confusion of @InBangkok is plainly evident in the way he turns things around.  If he would be "perfectly clear" there would be no need for dictionary definitions.  So it is precisely his confusion which calls for dictionary definitions.  This is true even if definitions bore him!  

 

One can sometimes enjoy and learn from trivia without it being one's essence.  I don't mind @InBangkokif you are full of music trivia, it does not bother me.  What does not make sense is that you complain of the personal comments that follow your personal attacks.   Hopefully your head can understand that personal comments will not be there if you stop your personal attacks.  This makes sense, doesn't it?

.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 11/22/2021 at 10:37 AM, Steve5380 said:

if you stop your personal attacks

Most of what you term personal attacks are your own words, written by you and then requoted by me. If you don't like your own words coming back to bite you, don't wrote them in the first place. Doesn't that make sense?

 

Back to the topic of the thread - opera and as the original poster made clear, opera performances. Jon Vickers was also a wonderful Siegmund. Rather extraordinarily the Decca executives decided to make this recording in 1961, even though they knew they had already started a massively expensive complete recorded cycle with Solti and the Vienna Philharmonic with Rheingold issued only 3 years earlier and had their Walkure planned for recording only 3 years later. Surely someone must have released the two versions would be in competition with each other!

 

This recording was conducted by Erich Leinsdorf with Vickers, the lovely Gre Brouwensteijn and the London Symphony Orchestra. Leinsdorf was clearly an experienced and vital Wagner conductor. The LSO also shows it is a match for its more illustrious Vienna colleagues. The recording also includes, as does the Solti Walkure, Brigit Nilsson as Brunnhilde. But to my mind this recording beats Solti's partly on account of Vickers but particularly on account of George London's magnificent Wotan. Hans Hotter was the greatest Wotan of his generation. Sadly by the time Solti was recording Walkure, his voice was not the great instrument it once had been. In the Act 1 duet, Vickers is in his prime.

 

Incidentally, as one of the youtube reviewers points out, on several occasions Nilsson said she preferred this recording to the one she later made with Solti. She felt that Leinsdorf's account sounded "much more natural." 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

On 11/21/2021 at 11:18 PM, InBangkok said:

 

Most of what you term personal attacks are your own words, written by you and then requoted by me. 

 

 

Yes,  what you call "requoted" really means "attacked".  It seems that I cannot write my own words without you compulsively attacking them.  It must be something wrong in your head,  and this does not concern me.

 

Most of my life I have enjoyed the music of Mozart's operas, which I would never consider even in my wildest imaginations that "it is not opera", ha ha.    I think that the a majority of classical music lovers enjoy opera without ever being in an opera house.  Again, all what can be listened in opera is its music.  Its music is opera that does not have the visual.  But today it is easy to get also the visual by watching an opera on YouTube.   Technology has changed things. An opera video is Complete Opera.   

[InBangkok]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:04 PM, Steve5380 said:

what you call "requoted" really means "attacked".  It seems that I cannot write my own words without you compulsively attacking them.

Now that is utterly fascinating. You write something. I requote precisely what you wrote. And you believe that is not requoting but attacking! It is not attacking. It is factual requoting. End of discussion.

 

On 11/22/2021 at 8:04 PM, Steve5380 said:

Most of my life I have enjoyed the music of Mozart's operas, which I would never consider even in my wildest imaginations that "it is not opera", ha ha.    I think that the a majority of classical music lovers enjoy opera without ever being in an opera house.  Again, all what can be listened in opera is its music.  Its music is opera that does not have the visual.  But today it is easy to get also the visual by watching an opera on YouTube.   Technology has changed things. An opera video is Complete Opera.   

Listening only to the music and paying no attention to the words and the dramatic context is not listening to opera. It is listening to a sung melody with rhythm and harmony attached. Equally, no opera performance is "complete" without being staged in an opera house. You can certainly enjoy opera on video and I accept that lots of people do. But it is not the "complete" opera experience by any means. 

 

Moving back in time from Britten and Wagner, here is one of Handal's great sad arias, "Scherza Infida" from Ariodante sung by the quite glorious Dame Sarah Connelly in a recent Sir David McVicar production for the Vienna State Opera. William Christie conducts his Les Arts Florissants ensemble. 

 

 

[singalion]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, musicals in America grew out of operettas who grew out of operas, with less pretentions and lower budgets I suppose. It is evident that one does not need to be so picky about an exact definition of 'opera'.  I remember that early in this thread I posted some opinions about the nature of opera which were much contested, which lead me to recall that the word "Opera" comes from the Latin "Opus", which means "work".  So such a general name with wide meanings can tolerate the inclusion of multiple genres.  In today's world,  inclusivity should reign.  I find it is not nice to leave "rap" and "rock" out.

 

I hope you are not trying to start this argument all over again.   

 

From my assumption the pre-war US lacked the singers to cultivate the opera culture in the US, both World Wars made it worse. In addition good earning European opera stars had no motivation to leave for the US. Opera seems to be a very European cultural thing and not so much of the "cowboy culture".  Probably those arts people did not see so much money to make from opera considering cost of orchestra, conductor and voices. Opera only came later after cultural Americans had ventured to Europe.

 

But that's my assumption which lacks any big research.

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:36 AM, InBangkok said:

Now that is utterly fascinating. You write something. I requote precisely what you wrote. And you believe that is not requoting but attacking! It is not attacking. It is factual requoting. End of discussion.

 

Listening only to the music and paying no attention to the words and the dramatic context is not listening to opera. It is listening to a sung melody with rhythm and harmony attached. Equally, no opera performance is "complete" without being staged in an opera house. You can certainly enjoy opera on video and I accept that lots of people do. But it is not the "complete" opera experience by any means. 

 

Moving back in time from Britten and Wagner, here is one of Handal's great sad arias, "Scherza Infida" from Ariodante sung by the quite glorious Dame Sarah Connelly in a recent Sir David McVicar production for the Vienna State Opera. William Christie conducts his Les Arts Florissants ensemble. 

 

 

 

I doubt that you requote something I wrote because you fell in love with it, do you?  You do it to attack it. End of discussion.

 

How you justify this nonsense that listening only to its music is not listening to opera?  This is like saying that you don't eat coconut unless you eat also the outer shell.  

 

What makes Mozart's operas so extraordinary, such gift of nature, or for the religious, the hand of God who guided Mozart in their composition?   Is it the scenery?  is it the libretto?  NO.  It is THEIR MUSIC!  The same can be said about all of Wagner's operas,  and many more good operas. And is it not true that what dooms many modern operas is their lack of MUSIC?   It is the MUSIC, dummy! 

.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

On 11/23/2021 at 4:26 AM, singalion said:

 

From my assumption the pre-war US lacked the singers to cultivate the opera culture in the US, both World Wars made it worse. In addition good earning European opera stars had no motivation to leave for the US. Opera seems to be a very European cultural thing and not so much of the "cowboy culture".  Probably those arts people did not see so much money to make from opera considering cost of orchestra, conductor and voices. Opera only came later after cultural Americans had ventured to Europe.

 

But that's my assumption which lacks any big research.

 

 

This is not a bad assumption.  

 

I also assume that the reason is that even the well cultured Americans in the days before the world wars didn't have much knowledge of opera nor much patience to listen to something so complicated,  so they were better served by something lighter, like operetta, and eventually musicals.  In those days there were not much recorded music and YouTube around, so the only way to experience an opera was to see it in person, or eventually hear its overture played by an orchestra.  To stage one was probably too complicated and expensive.  The situation changed when so many European Jews took refuge in America and brought with them their musical culture, and created an increased demand for classical music.

[InBangkok]

On 11/23/2021 at 5:26 PM, singalion said:

From my assumption the pre-war US lacked the singers to cultivate the opera culture in the US, both World Wars made it worse. In addition good earning European opera stars had no motivation to leave for the US.

 

On 11/23/2021 at 8:37 PM, Steve5380 said:

I also assume that the reason is that even the well cultured Americans in the days before the world wars didn't have much knowledge of opera nor much patience to listen to something so complicated . . .  To stage one was probably too complicated and expensive.

 

Both assumptions are in large part incorrect. New Orleans actually had the first opera house in America in the 1790s and saw many operas performed, starting with Gretry's Sylvain. Later several operas which are no longer performed, but followed by Cherubini's Les Deux Journees, Paisiello's Il barbiere di Siviglia, Boieldieu's La Dame Blanche and Spontini's La Vestale.  Naturally most operas performed were originally French, but soon four Rossini operas were to receive their American premieres in New Orleans - La Gazza Ladra, La Donna del Lago, Le Compte Ory and L'Italiana in Algeri. Soon Der Freischutz, Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Anna Bolena, Don Pasquale and La favorita were added to the repertoire. Perhaps ironically much German opera was sung in Italian, including three of the Ring operas.

 

Without going into extensive detail, in the mid-19th century a 4,000 seat permanent opera house was established in New York. When it burned down, the Metropolitan Opera was founded in 1883 in the old Met Opera House with its excellent acoustics on 39th and Broadway. Although primarily for the upper classes - its subscribers included members of the established Morgan, Vanderbilt and Roosevelt families - it had some cheap seats in its 3,625 capacity and standing room for 224. Opera was performed from September to around March. The company then went on a long tour around major US cities. This Met tour continued until the mid 1980s. Although the Met invited many European singers, on the annual tour most were replaced by American singers. The Met also performed regularly in Philadelphia, buying the Philadelphia Opera House in 1910. Opera started in San Francisco in 1851 with an average of almost 100 performances a year up to the earthquake in 1906. The War Memorial Opera House opened in 1932 with performances of Tosca. 1935 saw a complete Ring cycle.

 

Towards the end of the 1900s, a galaxy of European opera stars appeared in the USA. - as they started also to do in Buenos Aires and for a time at the Teatro Amazonas in Manaus. Enrico Caruso, Beniamino Gigli, Lille Lehmann, Luisa Tetrazzini, Nellie Melba and a host of others visited regularly. What was termed the Golden Age of Opera in New York included much of the Italian, French and German repertoire. For almost 30 years at the start of the 20th century, the Met was run by Giulio Gatti-Casazza who was hired directly from La Scala. He brought with him many illustrious singers and conductors from La Scala on a regular basis, including Toscanini for 7 seasons from 1908, Tulio Serafin was to follow. Between the wars great singers were engaged including Kirsten Flagstad, Zinka Milanov, Jussi Bjorling and Lauritz Melchior.

 

With so much operatic activity, there were naturally many American opera singers. But there were also lots of European singers and there was no need to engage American singers. So their names are not nearly as well-known outside America. Yet World War 2 proved a boon for them as European singers were mostly unable to travel. So the great Wagner heroine Helen Traubel, Richard Tucker, Jan Peerce and Robert Merrill came to the fore. The great disgrace of those years was that the outstanding contralto Marian Anderson was barred from opera houses because she was African-American. She was 58 by the time the Met gave her her debut in 1955. 

 

Further problems were to arrive postwar with the boom in LP sales and reproduction equipment. As interest in opera started to boom, although there were companies all over the USA the conservatoires were churning out singers faster than they could be employed. Thus many had to move temporarily to Europe to get their start as opera singers. The most obvious example was Jessye Norman. She began her career at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin, first appearing in the House as Elizabeth in Tannhauser in 1969 and 3 years later as Aida at La Scala. It was not until 1982 that she was given her debut in the USA at the opera company in Philadelphia. By then of course, Grace Bumbry, Leontyne Price, Shirley Verrett, Marilyn Horne, George London, Richard Cassilly and many other American singers had become internationally famous.

[InBangkok]

Another luscious Handel slow aria, this time "V'adoro pupille" from what I consider his greatest opera Giulio Cesare which is packed full of stunning music. This is the gorgeous love song by Cleopatra to Caesar with whom she has fallen madly in love.

 

 

[singalion]

On 11/24/2021 at 12:36 AM, InBangkok said:

 

 

Both assumptions are in large part incorrect. New Orleans actually had the first opera house in America in the 1790s and saw many operas performed, starting with Gretry's Sylvain. Later several operas which are no longer performed, but followed by Cherubini's Les Deux Journees, Paisiello's Il barbiere di Siviglia, Boieldieu's La Dame Blanche and Spontini's La Vestale.  Naturally most operas performed were originally French, but soon four Rossini operas were to receive their American premieres in New Orleans - La Gazza Ladra, La Donna del Lago, Le Compte Ory and L'Italiana in Algeri. Soon Der Freischutz, Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Anna Bolena, Don Pasquale and La favorita were added to the repertoire. Perhaps ironically much German opera was sung in Italian, including three of the Ring operas.

 

Without going into extensive detail, in the mid-19th century a 4,000 seat permanent opera house was established in New York. When it burned down, the Metropolitan Opera was founded in 1883 in the old Met Opera House with its excellent acoustics on 39th and Broadway. Although primarily for the upper classes - its subscribers included members of the established Morgan, Vanderbilt and Roosevelt families - it had some cheap seats in its 3,625 capacity and standing room for 224. Opera was performed from September to around March. The company then went on a long tour around major US cities. This Met tour continued until the mid 1980s. Although the Met invited many European singers, on the annual tour most were replaced by American singers. The Met also performed regularly in Philadelphia, buying the Philadelphia Opera House in 1910. Opera started in San Francisco in 1851 with an average of almost 100 performances a year up to the earthquake in 1906. The War Memorial Opera House opened in 1932 with performances of Tosca. 1935 saw a complete Ring cycle.

 

Towards the end of the 1900s, a galaxy of European opera stars appeared in the USA. - as they started also to do in Buenos Aires and for a time at the Teatro Amazonas in Manaus. Enrico Caruso, Beniamino Gigli, Lille Lehmann, Luisa Tetrazzini, Nellie Melba and a host of others visited regularly. What was termed the Golden Age of Opera in New York included much of the Italian, French and German repertoire. For almost 30 years at the start of the 20th century, the Met was run by Giulio Gatti-Casazza who was hired directly from La Scala. He brought with him many illustrious singers and conductors from La Scala on a regular basis, including Toscanini for 7 seasons from 1908, Tulio Serafin was to follow. Between the wars great singers were engaged including Kirsten Flagstad, Zinka Milanov, Jussi Bjorling and Lauritz Melchior.

 

With so much operatic activity, there were naturally many American opera singers. But there were also lots of European singers and there was no need to engage American singers. So their names are not nearly as well-known outside America. Yet World War 2 proved a boon for them as European singers were mostly unable to travel. So the great Wagner heroine Helen Traubel, Richard Tucker, Jan Peerce and Robert Merrill came to the fore. The great disgrace of those years was that the outstanding contralto Marian Anderson was barred from opera houses because she was African-American. She was 58 by the time the Met gave her her debut in 1955. 

 

Further problems were to arrive postwar with the boom in LP sales and reproduction equipment. As interest in opera started to boom, although there were companies all over the USA the conservatoires were churning out singers faster than they could be employed. Thus many had to move temporarily to Europe to get their start as opera singers. The most obvious example was Jessye Norman. She began her career at the Deutsche Oper in Berlin, first appearing in the House as Elizabeth in Tannhauser in 1969 and 3 years later as Aida at La Scala. It was not until 1982 that she was given her debut in the USA at the opera company in Philadelphia. By then of course, Grace Bumbry, Leontyne Price, Shirley Verrett, Marilyn Horne, George London, Richard Cassilly and many other American singers had become internationally famous.

 

I was challenged to do a research as a fighter for truth and accurateness.

 

It was that the New Orleans was the first opera, however, the background seemed to be the French settlers in New Orleans initially. They even hired a German opera conductor in their love for opera.

Inspiration were works from Europe, mostly from Paris.

It seemed that opera ensembles had been invited to play in these operas

And there was an exchange of conductors and singers from France. The next operas on the US came in New York (1833) and Chicaco (1890), which means Orleans took a 50 year lead.

 

But comparing US and Europe there is a significant difference.

Opera houses in the US existed only in the big capitals whereas in Europe even smaller towns can have an opera.

 

I admit it is difficult to find reliable sources documenting or reporting on operas in the US.

 

[InBangkok]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:18 PM, singalion said:

But comparing US and Europe there is a significant difference.

Opera houses in the US existed only in the big capitals whereas in Europe even smaller towns can have an opera.

Absolutely agree. In a sense, opera was ingrained into European society from the 17th century. The prevalence of so many individual ruling houses all around the continent (Germany alone at one time had 25 royal courts whereas Italy had many dozens more) resulted in a lot of competition for composers and a lot of work for musicians. As these courts amalgamated and many eventually died, the states took over much of the funding. This became a very different model to that in the USA where private money provided the necessary subsidy. Away from the coasts t is unlikely there was much opera in the USA other than the Met's annual tours and a few other touring companies.

[Steve5380]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:59 PM, InBangkok said:

Absolutely agree. In a sense, opera was ingrained into European society from the 17th century. The prevalence of so many individual ruling houses all around the continent (Germany alone at one time had 25 royal courts whereas Italy had many dozens more) resulted in a lot of competition for composers and a lot of work for musicians. As these courts amalgamated and many eventually died, the states took over much of the funding. This became a very different model to that in the USA where private money provided the necessary subsidy. Away from the coasts t is unlikely there was much opera in the USA other than the Met's annual tours and a few other touring companies.

 

In those earlier days, people didn't have movies, television, records, Internet, so they had few ways of audiovisual entertainment. Opera served the dual purpose of visual scenery with acting and music. Therefore it was important.   In the same way, horses were important because people didn't have cars, busses, metros. 

 

Like horses have retrieved to stables where fans of horse riding, polo playing can stay in contact with these noble animals, opera houses can retrieve to major cultural centers for those who enjoy live operas.  Today the majority of the population does not care for opera because there are so many other abundant ways of entertainment,  and for those of us who still care, we have a wealth of recorded operas on DVDs and on the Internet.  This abundance makes us feel like a child in a candy store   

.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:42 AM, Steve5380 said:

In those earlier days, people didn't have movies, television, records, Internet, so they had few ways of audiovisual entertainment. Opera served the dual purpose of visual scenery with acting and music. Therefore it was important.

The whole world of entertainment has mushroomed exponentially since the days when opera, concerts, vaudeville and silent movies were almost the only form of entertainment available to anyone. Even so, I have not seen any evidence that proportionally more people out of the total population attended opera in those days than in, say, the 1960s or 1980s. There was certainly an expansion of audiences after Pavarotti had become a mega-star and played to a quarter of a million and more in arenas each year. Then came the Three Tenors bandwagon with the CD of the original 1990 Rome concert still being the best selling classical CD of all time. The presence of mega stars who competed in the public's mind with superstars in other forms of entertainment led to an upsurge in live opera attendances.

 

That said, there is no question that many opera companies have to work a lot harder these days to market their product in the face of intense competition from other leisure activities - although Germany with its more than 80 professional opera houses seems alone in having no decrease in overall audiences. It was at one time thought that television might kill cinema audiences. So movie producers upped their game and cinema owners did likewise. Now you can purchase a ticket that includes a drink and a snack before the movie, a much more intimate mini-theatre with seats that can recline almost horizontally, blankets, larger screens, surround digital sound etc. The opera experience, as exciting as this is for millions around the world, has hardly changed in 2 centuries.

 

To my thinking, opera companies now have to find ways of breaking free of the restrictions of the opera house. There will always be more people wanting to see Madama Butterfly or La Traviata than can be accommodated in opera houses seating 2,000 - 3,000 people, even if a company schedules a dozen performances. Such audiences tend to be more event oriented than price oriented. But although sold-out, the cost of every performance will rarely be recouped from ticket sales alone. 

 

The 'live' streaming from opera houses - and increasingly theatres - is one way of increasing audiences, although there is no evidence yet that this increases audiences within the opera house itself. Stupidly, in my view, the Metropolitan Opera permits its live relays into cinemas in the New York area, the very area where it depends for most of its regular audiences. Yet such relays are an ideal way of reaching audiences who live far from any opera house.

 

Another development which has achieved huge success in the UK is Birmingham Opera, an innovation of the late opera director Sir Graham Vick. Its artistic standards are high, but it does not depend on an opera house. It presents opera in a variety of ordinary buildings, it mixes top professional singers with amateurs, has the audience intermingle with the singers, cuts down orchestrations where necessary (as in its quite recent Das Rheingold) and consistently wins international awards. Most importantly, it offers an alternative to the full opera house experience and has drawn vast numbers of people, especially young people, to its work. Such performances are not to everyone's taste, but they are unquestionably doing a major job in creating an interest in opera amongst people who would otherwise believe opera is not for them. As the UK's Spectator Music critic wrote - "BOC continues to be one of the glories of English cultural life, and I would rather miss any other company's productions than its."

[Steve5380]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:18 PM, InBangkok said:

 

The 'live' streaming from opera houses - and increasingly theatres - is one way of increasing audiences, although there is no evidence yet that this increases audiences within the opera house itself. Stupidly, in my view, the Metropolitan Opera permits its live relays into cinemas in the New York area, the very area where it depends for most of its regular audiences. Yet such relays are an ideal way of reaching audiences who live far from any opera house.

 

Another development which has achieved huge success in the UK is Birmingham Opera, an innovation of the late opera director Sir Graham Vick. Its artistic standards are high, but it does not depend on an opera house. It presents opera in a variety of ordinary buildings, it mixes top professional singers with amateurs, has the audience intermingle with the singers, cuts down orchestrations where necessary (as in its quite recent Das Rheingold) and consistently wins international awards. Most importantly, it offers an alternative to the full opera house experience and has drawn vast numbers of people, especially young people, to its work. Such performances are not to everyone's taste, but they are unquestionably doing a major job in creating an interest in opera amongst people who would otherwise believe opera is not for them. As the UK's Spectator Music critic wrote - "BOC continues to be one of the glories of English cultural life, and I would rather miss any other company's productions than its."

 

I fail to see any advantage in 'live' streaming.  The material itself is not superior to recorded video.  I remember seeing some life streaming from the Chopin Competition in Warsaw, and I noticed clear disadvantages, like the need to watch it simultaneously,  restrictions in navigate back and forward in the video, and lack of the information that appears later in the recorded video with names and links into the video where some sections are played.  

 

And... what is the need to see a performance instantly?  Einstein proved in his relativity theory that there is no true simultaneousness, ha ha.

 

But I like the idea of making opera performances less formal.   And...  why not open to the public its rehearsals?  This can be even more interesting than the performances themselves, as we can see in some videos of rehearsals in YouTube.

[Steve5380]

Beautiful aria Ch`io mio scordi di te? of Mozart...  is this opera?  Especially when the orchestra director doubles up as pianist?   Could this sharing of functions also cut down on costs?  Surely Gulda would be open to less formal opera, appearing here looking like a clown, his bow-legged feet, his cap, and...  the way he acts?  

 

 

[InBangkok]

Today marks the 100th anniversary of the birth of the singer who many regard as the finest soprano voice of the 20th century - Renata Tebaldi. She was a lyric spinto specialising in the roles fitting that voice as in Butterfly, Boheme, Aida, Fanciulla del West, Simon Boccanegra and especially as Desdemona in Verdi's Otello. She also took on two Wagner roles - Elsa in Lohengrin and Eva in Meistersinger. She made dozens of recordings including 6 Otellos and 5 Bohemes. I have CDs of her Butterfly and Boheme, both with the marvellous Carlo Bergonzi and the Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia conducted by Tulio Serafin.

 

Toscanini called Tebaldi's voice - "the voice of an angel." Much was made during her career of her alleged rivalry with Maria Callas. In fact, the voices were very different, Tebaldi's being more luscious and classical beautiful. Ms. Tebaldi spent more of her career at the New York Met Opera than anywhere else, but was a regular, too, at La Scala, the Royal Opera and other major Houses.

 

The ravishing love duet from Act 1 of Madama Butterfly here is sumptuous, tender and riveting at the same time.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by InBangkok

[singalion]

 

Opera alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

There will be a Rossini opera in Singapore

 

 

“L’Inganno Felice”: Lirica Arts presents Gioacchino Rossini’s "The Blissful Deception"

 

It is the second opera by Rossini to be fully staged in Singapore.

The performance will start at 8 pm (on the 5^th) and 4 pm (on the 6^th) and it will last about 90 minutes with no intermission.

 

Please refer to the link

 

https://operawire.com/lirica-arts-singapore-to-present-historic-production-of-linganno-felice/

Lirica Arts Singapore to Present Historic Production of ‘L’Inganno Felice’

By David Salazar

 

Lirica Arts Singapore is set to present Rossini’s “L’Inganno Felice” starting on March 5, 2022 at the NAFA Lee Foundation Theatre.

 

The Rossini work, which will also be presented on March 6, is set to star Joyce Lee as Isabella, Jonathan Charles Tay as Bertrando, Martin Ng as Batone (Ng is also the Executive Producer on the project), David Tao as Tarabotto, and William Lim as Ormondo. Tang XinXin will direct with Lien Boon Hua conducting the Wayfarer Sinfonietta, a chamber ensemble founded in 2021.

 

Dorothy Png is the Production Designer while Theresa Chan is Costume Designer. Ng Siew Eng will take on the role of Project Consultant and Tay Huey Meng will be the Production Director.

 

This series of performances represent the Singapore premiere of the work and the opera society’s second public performance following its presentation of “No Tenors Allowed” back in September 2021. This is also the second opera by Rossini to be fully staged in Singapore following the 1992 and 2007 performances of “Il Barbiere di Siviglia” by the Singapore Lyric Opera.

Check out a trailer for the production:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.sistic.com.sg/events/blissful0322

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by singalion

[InBangkok]

I wish I could be there as this is one opera I have never even heard of before - let alone seen or heard! It's an early 1-Act work that was given its premiere in Venice in 1812. In the same year he was to write and have premiered at the same theatre La Scala di Sieta (The Silken Ladder) whose overuse is a staple at concerts around the world. Rossini was only 20 at the time but already showing the talent that would make him the most famous Italian composer of his time. Just a year later he had written two other major successes, L'Italiana in Algeri and Tancredi.

 

Anyone interested in knowing a little more about opera at this time should definitely consider reading the book Bel Canto Bully: The Life and Times of the Legendary Opera Impresario Domenico Barbaja. In 1812 Barbaja was 35 years old. He had been born in north Italy from a poor family, had little education and knew virtually nothing about music and opera. But he knew about business, having made small fortunes in the coffee and armaments businesses. As he moved south he realised there was a way for him to make a substantial amount of money - through managing opera houses. Still opera meant nothing to him. What drew him to the opera house was that they were effectively gambling dens because gambling was permitted in the foyers.

 

Having gained control of the San Carlo Opera House in Naples, he realised another fact. He needed patrons in the theatre if his gambling ventures were really to profit. So he had to become involved in what was going on on the opera stages in the evening. Having heard of Rossini's success in Venice, he then paid him a lot of money to compose for his Naples Opera House. Soon he was employing the triumvirate of the greatest bel canto composers of the century - Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini. His profits soared. Eventually he was to move north and take over the La Scala Opera House. After that it was the Opera House in Vienna. He died a very rich man in 1841.

[doncoin]

Ay dios mio! This topic is becoming more soap opera than opera.  

 

Still, here is a little somewhat forgotten gem which is musical theater by origin, by operatic in approach. I choose this duet because it is my favorite from WSS. 

 

 

Let's not also forget the one time when the opera, La Boheme, made it to the Broadway stage. It was one of those serendipitous moments in theatre where at one particular point in time, audiences have a choice of 3 productions of La Boheme to choose from. Baz Lurhmann's Broadway production, Zeffirelli's classic version at the Metropolitan Opera, and New York City Opera's production within 1 season. 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by doncoin

[InBangkok]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:53 PM, doncoin said:

Ay dios mio! This topic is becoming more soap opera than opera.  

 

Still, here is a little somewhat forgotten gem which is musical theater by origin, by operatic in approach. I choose this duet because it is my favorite from WSS. 

 

I completely agree about this being the loveliest duet from WSS. We know that Bernstein drew from several musical influences when writing the music for WSS, something he readily admitted. I wonder if you know he takes the first notes of "I have a love" from Wagner's Ring cycle? It's the Redemption theme that first appears in Act !!! of Die Walkure when Sieglinde learns she is to have Siegmund's child. It is then the main theme at the very end of Gotterdammerung

 

 

It is then heard twice at the very end of Gotterdammerung. At the beginning of this excerpt, it is on the violins as the winds are playing one of the Rhinemaiden leitmotifs. It appears again at 1'40"

 

 

Interesting that the Zeffirelli Boheme has proved so popular over the years that it returns to the Met this coming season for yet another revival that will mark the 40th anniversary of its first being staged. I wonder how many productions in the major Opera Houses have lasted so long.

Edited March 2, 2022 by InBangkok