Opera appreciations and discussion

[hard pecs]

I have done a little search here and I don't see such a thread. So I am sticking my neck out to create one.

 

"How gay is opera? According to popular folklore, very." says the New Yorker magazine. But opera (western opera, rather than the Chinese variety) seems to have much less visibility and traction in South East Asia. It could be my ill-informed perception. Here in Singapore, I don't really see anything that mentions or relates to western operas. I am hoping this thread might arouse some interest, and creates a little forum for fellow queer opera lovers to exchange views.

 

Perhaps you'd want to know who the heck this guy is talking about opera. Well, I am a big opera lover and have seen a lot of productions in my life. I don't have a favourite one, but Wagner's Lohengrin (which I have sung in the chorus under Andris Nelsons), Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier, and Puccini's Tosca come close. Sometimes putting on an opera on a weekend afternoon can easily transport my mind to some place else. What about you? Do you listen to / watch operas? I'd love to hear from the others.

[aycee]

I do listen and watch, but don't have a specific favourite. That's partly because I watch a lot of different genres of theatre (including musicals and Chinese opera), so I just watch whatever that interest me.

 

[Maturechnman]

A couple of favourite renditions by Roberto Alagna

 

 

 

[wilfgene]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:17 PM, hard pecs said:

I have done a little search here and I don't see such a thread. So I am sticking my neck out to create one.

 

"How gay is opera? According to popular folklore, very." says the New Yorker magazine. But opera (western opera, rather than the Chinese variety) seems to have much less visibility and traction in South East Asia. It could be my ill-informed perception. Here in Singapore, I don't really see anything that mentions or relates to western operas. I am hoping this thread might arouse some interest, and creates a little forum for fellow queer opera lovers to exchange views.

 

Perhaps you'd want to know who the heck this guy is talking about opera. Well, I am a big opera lover and have seen a lot of productions in my life. I don't have a favourite one, but Wagner's Lohengrin (which I have sung in the chorus under Andris Nelsons), Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier, and Puccini's Tosca come close. Sometimes putting on an opera on a weekend afternoon can easily transport my mind to some place else. What about you? Do you listen to / watch operas? I'd love to hear from the others.

Mainly because over here,  I don't get to walk out of the same opera house Mozart had performed in, on to cobbler stone alleys, past medieval squares to the neighborhood pub.  Or see Vaclav Havel rest his chin on his palm in the Imperial suite.

Edited November 1, 2020 by wilfgene

[hunter]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:17 PM, hard pecs said:

I have done a little search here and I don't see such a thread. So I am sticking my neck out to create one.

 

"How gay is opera? According to popular folklore, very." says the New Yorker magazine. But opera (western opera, rather than the Chinese variety) seems to have much less visibility and traction in South East Asia. It could be my ill-informed perception. Here in Singapore, I don't really see anything that mentions or relates to western operas. I am hoping this thread might arouse some interest, and creates a little forum for fellow queer opera lovers to exchange views.

 

Perhaps you'd want to know who the heck this guy is talking about opera. Well, I am a big opera lover and have seen a lot of productions in my life. I don't have a favourite one, but Wagner's Lohengrin (which I have sung in the chorus under Andris Nelsons), Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier, and Puccini's Tosca come close. Sometimes putting on an opera on a weekend afternoon can easily transport my mind to some place else. What about you? Do you listen to / watch operas? I'd love to hear from the others.

Hi, I love opera, and looks we have a lot to talk about 😉 

[hard pecs]

Oh good! One opera lover has responded. I wonder if there are others. 

[qsefthu78]

Not an opera lover here, but a music lover and expired music practioner who experienced opera in the pit.

 

I don't understand the fuss and debates and cat fights on singers, voice, technique, interpretation, styles, etc I see so often online. But yes, opera as a music genre is magical indeed.

[heman]

I am into operas for many years. Started during my university days when i first listened to three most important Mozart's opera - Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni and of course The magic Flute. Later i branched out to Bizet's Carmen , Donizetti's Lucia , Pucinni's verismo especially Turandot and Tosca, Verdi before i became a hardcore fan of Richard Strauss' Salome, Electra, De Frau Ohne Schattern and of course the magical Rosenkavalier. Eventually i am into the complete Ring cycle of Wagner and his epic Tristan and Isolde.

I seldom miss operatic performances performed by the Lyric Theatre locally and of course overseas in Sydney, Vienna, Munich and London. It is not elitists at all to what most guys would think. It is in my blood. 

I agreed that watching not only opera but also classical music does transport me to a different sphere which is hard to describe.

Edited November 2, 2020 by heman

[InBangkok]

One more opera lover here although sorry I am based in Bangkok not Singapore. Saw my first - Marriage of Figaro - aged 14 and then in quite quick succession Bartered Bride and Tannhauser. Before moving to Asia I attended lots of performances of mostly excellent standard, including Cosi, Giovanni, Seraglio, Idomeneo, Lucia, Otello, Falstaff, Macbeth, Traviata, Norma, Carmen, Meistersinger, Tristan. 3 Ring cycles including one at Bayreuth, Rosenkavalier in Dresden. Ariadne, Peter Grimes, Billy Budd, Turn of the Screw, Wozzeck and quite a few more.

 

Since moving to Asia several decades ago, I have seen some excellent productions In Japan from visiting European companies. The La Scala Strehler production of Simon Boccanegra with Mirella Freni and conducted by Abbado was the most outstanding. I kick myself that during that same season I decided not to go to the Boheme conducted by Carlos Kleiber. Kleiber was arguably the greatest conductor on the last century. 

Those I have seen in Hong Kong were mostly average. Here in Bangkok the quality is generally poor, unfortunately, even during the annual Music and Dance Festival. In Taipei I did attend a glorious concert of excerpts from Gotterdammerung with Sinopoli, the Dresden Staatskapelle and several excellent singers.
 

About a dozen years ago, I blew a ton of air miles to fly to Chicago to see Sir David McVicar’s stunning Giulio Cesare. It was a fabulous evening. I was so blown away by the experience I walked back all the way to my hotel despite sub-zero temperatures.
 

Opera is very much part of my life. Like heman I also love much symphonic music and have attended several concerts in Singapore. But not opera yet.

[InBangkok]

Can I ask one question of those who are ‘Opera queens’? If you have had a chance to see opera in a traditional horse-shoe shaped opera house like many in Europe, did you find that enhanced your experience of the performance?

[wilfgene]

35 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

Can I ask one question of those who are ‘Opera queens’? If you have had a chance to see opera in a traditional horse-shoe shaped opera house like many in Europe, did you find that enhanced your experience of the performance?

 

On 11/1/2020 at 2:16 PM, wilfgene said:

Mainly because over here,  I don't get to walk out of the same opera house Mozart had performed in, on to cobbler stone alleys, past medieval squares to the neighborhood pub.  Or see Vaclav Havel rest his chin on his palm in the Imperial suite.

Foreplay cut short.

[hard pecs]

6 hours ago, InBangkok said:

Can I ask one question of those who are ‘Opera queens’? If you have had a chance to see opera in a traditional horse-shoe shaped opera house like many in Europe, did you find that enhanced your experience of the performance?

 

Hello InBangkok. The horse-shoe shape opera house grew out initially of courtyards of 16th century European aristocratic houses, and the enlarged from (largely in Italy and France) catered for those who wanted to be see and be seen across the auditorium. The boxes on either sides of the horse shoe were private properties - like an extension of one's apartment. Through today's eyes and ears, they provide a historical and social backdrop. I am not sure if that per se enhances one's experience of an opera performance. 

[InBangkok]

48 minutes ago, hard pecs said:

I am not sure if that per se enhances one's experience of an opera performance. 

Thanks hard pecs. I had no idea about the model being the courtyards of the aristocracy. I realise it helps that rich group being seen. I have only been in three - La Scala, Munich and the Royal Opera House. I have taken tours around a few more, most recently Parma a year ago. 

 

I suspect it can not assist enjoyment as most patrons have to view sideways or miss part of the action on that side of the stage. But being in the open stalls area in La Scala was special. I do think the large volume of air within the U shape assists in resonance of the sound. I was told Munich has an added advantage of having a resonating space under its orchestra pit so that the floor is a bit like the head of a tympani.

 

I was also in the restored Dresden Opera House. Whilst more circular than the traditional U shape, the sound was glorious, especially with the Dresden Staatskapelle under Thielemann in the pit.

[heman]

I been to both traditional and more modern opera houses like The Sydney  Opera House and even here in Singapore. The Esplanade Theatre It doesnt make any difference to my enjoyment of the opera. The only different is that the traditional opera house has an aristocratic ambience and more intimate in nature as compared to the more modern opera houses. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by heman

[mike_amk]

I've been a lover of all music, and Opera has a special place in my heart.

My travels at one point tended to coincide with a performance I've booked a ticket for.

I guess, It is really cool to have an Opera thread here on bw!

Looking forward to an Opera outing with a cool bunch of friends.

Cheers, Mike 🍷  

[doncoin]

When I was younger, I did sing with the Lyric Theatre in Singapore and performed in Tosca and a few others in the chorus. I have been fortunate to watch some of the best productions of opera put up over the years at the Met, as well as City opera but I have to admit that as I get older, I got a little bored. It has been years since I saw any new production not to mention new works. Opera seems to be stuck in the past a lot to me. Of course creative directors etc. did come up with more modernize take on the classics, but the music etc. still pretty much the same. The most contemporary production I have seen was a a workshop production of an opera based on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which I thought was fun. 

 

The most memorable performance I have witnessed was over 10 years ago of City Opera's production of Madam Butterfly. The tenor who sang Pinkerton was bad for some strange reason, and when it came to curtain call, he was actually booed. I mean, it was embarrassing for him, that he walked off the stage, and when he did, the applause and cheers came back on. I cannot recall his name, but I think that was pretty much the end of his career. 

 

I was watching some documentary not too long ago on Puccini. There was technique that he employs with his heroines that I never really noticed till I saw the documentary and now it is so obvious. For those who never pay attention like me, Puccini always had his heroines heard before they are seen. They usually sing off stage first before making their presence. Think Cio-Cio San, Tosca, Turandot, Mimi, etc. 

 

I have to admit, I always love Cio Cio San's entry, singing off stage as she and her posse slowly walked into the audience's view. Ok, so this movie version is not the best example of singing off stage. 

 

 

 

[InBangkok]

One of the benefits of the lockdowns during the pandemic is that a great many operas have been available as free relays. I watched several from Munich including a weird modern production of Gluck’s Orfeo. Musically, though, it was amazing. I had never heard of the Bulgarian coloratura contralto Vesselina Kasarova who plays Orfeo. I find her absolutely stunning. The first excerpt is her aria at the end of Act 1.

 

Gluck was a revolutionary who wanted to rid opera of its many Baroque accretions. He wrote Orfeo as a one act opera for Vienna with a coloratura mezzo castrato in the title role! He then revised it for performances in Italy with a castrato soprano as Orfeo. Yet again he revised it for its Paris premiere using an ultra high tenor (France loathed the castrato voice), a voice that rarely exists today.

 

After almost a century when the work had fallen out of favour, one of Gluck’s champions, Hector Berlioz, decided to remount a production in Paris using a true contralto. He significantly revised it with help from his assistant Camille Saint-Saens. Ironically many of the revisions went against Gluck’s reforms but it is this edition that is mostly performed today. The aria at the end of Act 1 is one major revision. It is thought that Saint-Saens actually wrote this aria!

 

The second excerpt is the famous aria usually titled “Che faro” but in the Munich Berlioz version it has its French title. Everyone knows this aria and it seems every mezzo, contralto and counter tenor has recorded it. It is sung after Orfeo has finally lost his wife Eurydice by disobeying the rule that he not look back at her when they are ascending from Hades.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by InBangkok

[heman]

A few year ago i saw a very avant garde performance of Gluck's Orfeo where the two soloists were encased in a huge glass cube at the Sydney Opera House. The singing were excellent but i frowned when the director went too far in producing this stage styling. Perhaps I am more of a purist , though i can tolerate some degree of modernism in a Baroque opera production. Perhaps my worst , at the National Theatre in Munich few years ago ,though good singing, was Richard Strauss' Adriane when the director really make the staging almost insane. The staging emulated a private toilet. 

One of the very good production which i can still recalled very vividly was Alban Berg's female fatale Lulu at the Vienna Opera back in the mid 1990s and locally in Singapore of  Benjamin Britten's The turn of the Screw about three years ago. The production was just perfect, unpretentious  and economically staged. I was very surprised that it escaped the censorship being a very homoerotic theme.

Edited November 4, 2020 by heman

[InBangkok]

14 hours ago, heman said:

 locally in Singapore of  Benjamin Britten's The turn of the Screw about three years ago. The production was just perfect, unpretentious  and economically staged. I was very surprised that it escaped the censorship being a very homoerotic theme.

I find Turn of the Screw a fascinating opera with its intertwining themes of innocence and corruption. Were the children molested by the former Governess and dead valet Peter Quint? How much is true and how much purely in the imagination of the new, young and impressionable Governess? The boy Miles admission “I am bad, I am bad”  is chilling. A good production should leave one with so many questions!

Edited November 5, 2020 by InBangkok

[hard pecs]

17 hours ago, heman said:

One of the very good production which i can still recalled very vividly was Alban Berg's female fatale Lulu at the Vienna Opera back in the mid 1990s and locally in Singapore of  Benjamin Britten's The turn of the Screw about three years ago.

 

heman, I am surprised to hear that Singapore staged The Turn of the Screw. Britten's operas approach difficult subjects even with today's more liberal views in the UK. I wonder how the audience here perceived the work. I think Singapore can easily stage something like Albert Herring, one of Britten's little known gems - only a chamber orchestra and a small handful of singers are needed - yet it's a funny and light hearted work that many would enjoy. I saw it at Glyndebourne many years ago - and thoroughly enjoyed it. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by hard pecs

[InBangkok]

A switch back in time. The Presentation of the Rose from Act II of Der Rosenkavalier is well known and has been recorded by many major singers. But is there any better version than this? Carlos Kleiber was voted by his peers as the finest conductor of all time. Yet throughout his entire career he conducted only 90 or so concerts and 400 opera performances. His repertoire was incredibly limited but Rosenkavalier was one of his favorites.

 

In this Kleiber video, Anne Sophie von Otter makes a marvelous Octavian. For a change Octavian actually looks like a handsome young teenage Count. And Barbara Bonney was one of the great Sophies of her time. The moment their eyes meet at 3’15” is magical. I was so pleased to attend a recital Bonney gave in Bangkok 12 years ago. It is so unfortunate that her career came to an end too early.

 

 

[heman]

6 hours ago, hard pecs said:

 

heman, I am surprised to hear that Singapore staged The Turn of the Screw. Britten's operas approach difficult subjects even with today's more liberal views in the UK. I wonder how the audience here perceived the work. I think Singapore can easily stage something like Albert Herring, one of Britten's little known gems - only a chamber orchestra and a small handful of singers are needed - yet it's a funny and light hearted work that many would enjoy. I saw it at Glyndebourne many years ago - and thoroughly enjoyed it. 

Hello Mr. Hard Pecs. It was a very fine performance though The Straits Times reviewer also wondered how it escaped the censorship. My partner and I were very surprised that quite a good number of the audiences were young students even wearing their school uniform. Perhaps they were not informed of the nature of this highly homoerotic chamber opera. Nothing is hidden in this production and it was indeed an eye opener for us all.

Back about a decade ago during the Singapore Dance Festival a dance group from Taiwan showed THE EMPORER at the Esplanade. It featured full frontal male nudity and half female nudity almost throughout the half an hour dance based on one of Beethoven piano sonata. If i recalled it was Beethoven's Appasionata. I was really surprised that the censorship board here too released its performance. 

[InBangkok]

I suspect censors look at the written word. So staging and ballet can get away with things probably theatre performances can’t.
 

Just an aside. The great Australian ballet dancer Sir Robert Helpmann was against the whole idea of nudity in ballet. His concern? That when the music stopped, a part of the male anatomy would almost certainly still be moving!

[heman]

2 hours ago, InBangkok said:

But is there any better version than this? Carlos Kleiber was voted by his peers as the finest conductor of all time. Yet throughout his entire career he

Indeed this is a very fine production. However i preferred the version by Kiri Te Kanawa as the Marschallin, the superb Barbara Bonney and Anne Howells with George Solti conducting. To me this is a finer version than Carlos Kleiber. Again it is my personal taste. Kiri was an extremely sensitive in her interpretation especially in the important monologue of the first act and the grand trio of the Finale. The intertwining of two soprano voices and a mezzo was very stratospheric in nature. It was bitter sweet in its overall picture though at times i felt there was an element of self pity too.

[heman]

3 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

I suspect censors look at the written word. So staging and ballet can get away with things probably theatre performances can’t.
 

Just an aside. The great Australian ballet dancer Sir Robert Helpmann was against the whole idea of nudity in ballet. His concern? That when the music stopped, a part of the male anatomy would almost certainly still be moving!

Sir Robert Helpman ... a danseur noble during his period ... if i am not wrong partnered Dame Margot Fonteyn during her early days before she was rescued by Rudolf Nureyev from early retirement. 

[InBangkok]

5 hours ago, heman said:

Indeed this is a very fine production. However i preferred the version by Kiri Te Kanawa as the Marschallin, the superb Barbara Bonney and Anne Howells with George Solti conducting. To me this is a finer version than Carlos Kleiber. Again it is my personal taste. Kiri was an extremely sensitive in her interpretation especially in the important monologue of the first act and the grand trio of the Finale. The intertwining of two soprano voices and a mezzo was very stratospheric in nature. It was bitter sweet in its overall picture though at times i felt there was an element of self pity too.

I think this is the Trio from that production.

 

 

[doncoin]

I am a big Philip Glass fan but mostly for his music. Last year, when the Met staged a production of Akhnaten, I knew I had to go check it out. It was visually sumptuous, and the lead, pretty much appear stark naked as his makes his entrance. It is avant grade but the music is so distinct of Glass. Cast wise, I thought it was ok, I am still trying to wrap my head around it. I am not sure if I love it: the production I love. The music/lyrics, I am hmmmm...

 

 

[InBangkok]

That production of Akhnaten started life as a joint production between ENO in London and LA Opera before being rented by the Met. This seems increasingly a way Opera companies reduce costs.

 

The Giulio Cesare I mentioned in an earlier post started life at Glyndebourne with the wonderful Dame Sarah Connolly as Cesare. It was then rented by both the Met and the Lyric Opera of Chicago with the counter tenor David Daniels in the role. This was about a dozen years ago when Daniels’ voice was in its prime and long before he hit the headlines for his activities on one of the gay dating apps, Grindr I think, and he and his partner were accused of rape of a student. A sad end to what had been a groundbreaking career.

[InBangkok]

I mentioned earlier how I love arguably Handel’s most popular opera, Giulio Cesare. As I have grown older I have come increasingly to love the music of both Händel and Haydn. Very different but both unquestionably among the very greatest of all composers.

 

I’m not sure if it is because of the subject matter of Handel’s operas, the style of the music, the use of da capo arias or what that makes many producers feel the need to ginger them up with modern regie theatre style productions. With some it works. Others, I’m not so sure. Also there are some producers who will be inventive but always in the service of the music. Others seem merely to do their own thing.

 

After the success of Giulio Cesare at Glyndebourne by the excellent Sir David McVicar, some years later the company had produced Handel’s Rinaldo by one of the enfants terribles of opera, Robert Carson. He updated the action from the Crusader era Holy Land to an English public school. One of the show stopper arias is “Venti turbini”.  Part of the production looks like the opening of a Dreamworks movie!

 

When first produced, a mezzo was cast in the title role. For the 2019 revival they chose a counter tenor. I don’t know the name of this singer. It is a fiendishly difficult aria and I don’t like the quality of his voice much. Nor am I in favour of the longish harpsichord intermezzo which is not in the original. But Handel’s genius still shines through.

 

 

Purely for comparison, here is a concert version of the aria with the extraordinary Polish coloratura contralto Ewa Podles and an Orchestra conducted by Christopher Hogwood. As in Handel’s day she uses a lot of embellishment in the da capo section.  Podles is now sadly retired. The music world sorely misses her 3 octave voice.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by InBangkok

[InBangkok]

I was discussing with a friend in Italy last night the reason for there now being relatively few great singers compared of those active in our youth. Living in Europe I had the wonderful opportunity of hearing and seeing such artists as Galina Vishnevskaya, Mirella Freni, Helga Dernesch, Gundula Janowitz, Birgit Nilsson, Dame Margaret Price, Montserrat Caballé, Dame Joan Sutherland, Jessye Norman, Elizabeth Soderstrom, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa, Teresa Berganza, Dame Janet Baker, Christa Ludwig, Gottlob Frick (called by Furtwangler “the blackest bass in Germany”), Sir Geraint Evans, Walter Berry, Herman Prey, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Pavarotti, Carreras, Domingo, Peter Schreier and many others.

 

Is it a result of the near death of the many major recording companies? I can remember when rival versions of operas like Macbeth and Turandot were issued with great public interest. It was not uncommon for newspaper music critics to debate the finer points of each Lady Macbeth and  Calaf. Now Naxos has a near monopoly of new recordings as well as a vast number of reissues in their huge catalogue?

 

Is it a result of the number of news media having got rid of most of their music critics?

 

Is it perhaps that there is now a greater pool of excellent opera singers worldwide and so we do not hear the same singers so regularly in the same opera houses?

 

In the 1970s and 80s opera was firmly rooted in Europe and to a lesser extent in North America, very much as it is today. There are still ‘star’ singers that are guaranteed more or less to fill houses - Anna Netrebko, Sondra Radvanovsky, Elina Garanca, Joyce DiDonato, Juan Diego Flores. There is also a group whose careers will soon be nearing their end like Angela Gheorghiu, Renée Fleming, Roberto Alagna and Cecilia Bartoli.

 

Now opera is slowly spreading throughout more of the world. So is it perhaps that the age of the star singer is virtually over, with more concentration of an ensemble of fine artists. Do audiences in Asia care who is singing which role?

 

I wonder what your thoughts are?

Edited November 7, 2020 by InBangkok

[hard pecs]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:31 PM, doncoin said:

I am a big Philip Glass fan but mostly for his music. Last year, when the Met staged a production of Akhnaten, I knew I had to go check it out. It was visually sumptuous, and the lead, pretty much appear stark naked as his makes his entrance. It is avant grade but the music is so distinct of Glass. Cast wise, I thought it was ok, I am still trying to wrap my head around it. I am not sure if I love it: the production I love.

 

 

@doncoin I saw that production too at the ENO in London when it was first staged. It's a dazzling production that let Glass's music shine. I was lucky enough to have seen the previous production of Akhnaten at the ENO, which consisted of a massive sand pit. The cast built Akhnaten's empire with sand and then subsequently destroyed it. Like the recent production, the singer was naked as he entered into the temple. But for the gays, the most memorable part was there were 3-4 naked wrestlers on stage throughout doing slo-mo wrestling as that was a depiction of one of the sports during Akhnaten's time. 

[Steve5380]

On 10/31/2020 at 2:17 AM, hard pecs said:

 

"How gay is opera? According to popular folklore, very." says the New Yorker magazine. But opera (western opera, rather than the Chinese variety) seems to have much less visibility and traction in South East Asia. It could be my ill-informed perception. Here in Singapore, I don't really see anything that mentions or relates to western operas. I am hoping this thread might arouse some interest, and creates a little forum for fellow queer opera lovers to exchange views.

 

 

 

Maybe opera has became more gay in recent times?  I don't follow modern operas so I don't have much knowledge of this.

 

So I reject the label of "fellow queer opera lover" and I rather fit into "fellow opera lover".  And my love is for traditional opera.  In my estimation, the core of opera is in its music.  And here I include the singing, which is of course also musical.   The theatrical aspect I can easily do without.   Although since childhood I have attended opera performances and during my married life we had a subscription to the Houston Opera and watched many operas,  I am perfectly content to HEAR an opera without having to SEE one.  This goes in line with the comfort of my life, being pleased by watching videos or even just recordings of operas.  This saves me the hassle to get good tickets and travel to the place of the performance and then sit in a chair for hours constrained by some decent clothes, without any hope to see anything but in the solid angle that my eye at the location of the chair can capture.

 

I have no qualm in stating that my favorite operas are the Mozart ones, 1) The Marriage of Figaro,  2) The Magic Flute, 3) Don Giovanni.  I get emotional just thinking about them.  And my appreciation for them does not diminish by hearing them hundreds of times, both in full performances and in their individual arias.

 

This aside, I also enjoy much the whole repertoire of Italian and German operas (modern ones aside).  And if I have the opportunity to attend live an opera in my city, I gladly do it.  In live performances I am not so particular about the stardom of the singers and orchestra, as long as they are not too bad.  Costumes also become interesting.

 

Maybe when I am really old I will find distraction being wheeled into an auditorium to a front location to attend a concert, just for the social aspect of it    

 

 

[InBangkok]

Steve5380 and I have had a similar discussion in the Instrumental Music thread. We differ completely which is entirely a right for each of us. I cannot imagine opera without actually seeing it in an opera house. Going back yet again to Giulio Cesare, I decided at a rather late age that I really ought to know something about Handel’s operas. I picked Cesare and ordered the CD from amazon. After it arrived, it sat on my desk for fully 4 months before I decided I had to listen to it.

 

For the first 15 minutes or so, I worked as I listened. Then the beauty of the music followed by the drama completely gripped me. I must have listened to the opera a dozen times and then decided I just had to see it. With little opera in Asia over the last few decades, I have happily spent a lot flying to Japan, Europe and the USA. The Chicago performance exceeded all my expectations. I then bought the Glyndebourne DVD of the same production.
 

Since productions vary according both to the cast as well as the conductor and producer, each is different. That’s what makes it so vibrant and interesting. I just cannot imagine spending my life without attending live performances. Opera is a live art form.

Edited November 8, 2020 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

While I am not much interested in the scene of an opera,  the stage for unattractive singers in costumes to walk around and sing the words from some usually very dumb librettos,  I like the spectacle of dance,  of ballet.  This is a late acquired likeness, after I lost the prejudice about ballet being something kinky and unmanly, and recognize the high talent and athletics of ballet dancers.  And the best for me is the ballet danced to some exquisite piece of classical music.  This started with the ballet Les Sylphides, danced to the music of Chopin.  Other classical ballets also have nice music in them, like Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker. There are a few videos of dancers from the Houston Ballet dancing to Chopin's piano pieces played by Lang Lang.  And lately,  I fell in love with Bejart's 9th Symphony,  a ballet choreographed by Bejart to the music of Beethoven's 9th symphony.  I bought this DVD months ago, transferred it to a  MP4 file on my computer,  of which I watch parts of it every day  to accompany some of my exercises. To see the beauty and fine aesthetics of the young dancers motivates me to pay attention to my own physique. 

.  

Edited November 8, 2020 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

Here are some videos of dancers following the music of Chopin, which I mentioned in the previous post.  Is this opera?   YES,  in an extended sense.  It is performed on the stage to music, and the music includes the singing of the piano!  Much to the skill of Lang Lang and the melodious compositions of Chopin!

 

 

This one I posted earlier in the "instrumental music" thread, but it is worth repeating  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

Sorry Steve5380. This is a thread specifically started by @hard pecs. And it is about opera. Not ballet, not instrumental music and not the marriage of the two. Just because an event is performed on stage definitely does not make it opera. A key ingredient of opera is singing and the portrayal of a drama through singing. Please realise that your posts are suited to other threads and not this one. 

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, InBangkok said:

Sorry Steve5380. This is a thread specifically started by @hard pecs. And it is about opera. Not ballet, not instrumental music and not the marriage of the two. Just because an event is performed on stage definitely does not make it opera. A key ingredient of opera is singing and the portrayal of a drama through singing. Please realise that your posts are suited to other threads and not this one. 

 

Hi @InBangkok, I have some observations to make about your post.

 

First,  ALL threads are specifically started.  Or have you seen a non-specific thread, called "Tread"?

 

Second: "opera. Not ballet".  Doesn't this remember the words of "Il Directore" to Mozart: "His Majesty (Joseph II) has specifically forbidden the use of Ballet in his Operas" Are you the "Il Directore In Bangkok"?

 

Third: The portrayal of a drama is not essential in an opera.  This is why we have "Opera Buffa", like Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro, La finta semplice, Lo sposo deluso,  and a bunch of "Drama Giocosso"

 

Fourth:  It is also well known that the word "Opera" is the plural of Latin's "Opus", which means "work".  So Opera is "works".  I have posted above two videos representing true works of art.  So they are OPERA,  and therefore, they belong in this thread.   

.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

2 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Hi @InBangkok, I have some observations to make about your post.

 

First,  ALL threads are specifically started.  Or have you seen a non-specific thread, called "Tread"?

 

Second: "opera. Not ballet".  Doesn't this remember the words of "Il Directore" to Mozart: "His Majesty (Joseph II) has specifically forbidden the use of Ballet in his Operas" Are you the "Il Directore In Bangkok"?

 

Third: The portrayal of a drama is not essential in an opera.  This is why we have "Opera Buffa", like Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro, La finta semplice, Lo sposo deluso,  and a bunch of "Drama Giocosso"

 

 

 

You completely argue against yourself in points 2 and 3. Ballet was certainly a key element in opera for a long period of time. Indeed it was essential in French opera till late in the 19th century. But it was never ever ballet/dance on its own. It was part of a much larger work that was opera - which involved singing as the key element. There is no opera in my experience that does not have singing as the most important factor. Ballet on its own was ballet - not opera!

 

Drama in opera means a dramatic thread. Without that, you have a group of singers and an orchestra doing nothing but make nice music. It does not mean classical drama full of angst, murder and sleeping with mothers and aunts. A drama is merely a story, just as a play in a theatre is a drama. The operas you list all have a dramatic thread, as does Cenerentola, Barber of Seville etc. Nozze di Figaro is packed with drama - the deterioration of the marriage of the Count and Countess, the adventures of Cherubino, the travails of Susanna and Figaro, the relationship of Bartolo with Marcelina which has its own dramatic surprise . . .

 

Ballet and dance need to be covered in a different thread.

[Steve5380]

5 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

You completely argue against yourself in points 2 and 3. Ballet was certainly a key element in opera for a long period of time. Indeed it was essential in French opera till late in the 19th century. But it was never ever ballet/dance on its own. It was part of a much larger work that was opera - which involved singing as the key element. There is no opera in my experience that does not have singing as the most important factor. Ballet on its own was ballet - not opera!

 

Drama in opera means a dramatic thread. Without that, you have a group of singers and an orchestra doing nothing but make nice music. It does not mean classical drama full of angst, murder and sleeping with mothers and aunts. A drama is merely a story, just as a play in a theatre is a drama. The operas you list all have a dramatic thread, as does Cenerentola, Barber of Seville etc. Nozze di Figaro is packed with drama - the deterioration of the marriage of the Count and Countess, the adventures of Cherubino, the travails of Susanna and Figaro, the relationship of Bartolo with Marcelina which has its own dramatic surprise . . .

 

Ballet and dance need to be covered in a different thread.

 

In your interpretation of drama,  is surely included the drama WITHOUT WORDS.  An event, an episode, can have drama without anything spoken.  Like the sinking of the Titanic or the explosion of a supernova.  The videos I posted have plenty of drama in the music and the dance.  And singing does not require words.  Birds can sing so beautifully, yet one does not recognizes words in this.  I mentioned the singing of a piano, a modern grand played by a skillful artist.

 

Also you didn't address the fourth point in my edited post above.  The two videos I posted, true works of art,  are OPUS (in Latin). Two or more OPUS make an OPERA.  So they belong in this thread. 

[InBangkok]

33 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 Two or more OPUS make an OPERA.  So they belong in this thread. 

There is only one very clear answer. NO THEY DON’T!

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

1 minute ago, InBangkok said:

There is only one very clear answer. NO THEY DON’T!

 

This brings to mind a "clear answer" I heard yesterday coming from Donald Trump when it was determined that Joe Biden had won the presidency: "NO HE DIDN'T"

There are here some similarities...   Are you going to send me your legal team?

[InBangkok]

4 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

Are you going to send me your legal team?

For goodness sake don’t be so childish. That does not befit a 77 year old man!

 

The topic of this thread was clearly spelled out by the TS. This, you clearly need to be reminded, is about western opera (see below). Specific examples are cited to make the subject perfectly clear. Is ballet and piano music western opera as defined by works such as Lohengrin, Der Rosenkavalier and Tosca? Of course not. And to suggest birds singing refers to opera singing is just plain nuts. The woodbird sings in Siegfried - sings words, Rimsky Korsakov wrote music in The Golden Cockerel referring to a bird - but it never sings,  and Papageno collects birds - but again they never sing. Western opera must have singing or it is not opera.

 

You already have your own topic about Instrumental Music which includes the topics of dance and instrumental music. That is where your posts belong. This thread is about western opera. 

 

On 10/31/2020 at 2:17 PM, hard pecs said:

Here in Singapore, I don't really see anything that mentions or relates to western operas. I am hoping this thread might arouse some interest, and creates a little forum for fellow queer opera lovers to exchange views.

 

. . . Well, I am a big opera lover and have seen a lot of productions in my life. I don't have a favourite one, but Wagner's Lohengrin (which I have sung in the chorus under Andris Nelsons), Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier, and Puccini's Tosca come close. Sometimes putting on an opera on a weekend afternoon can easily transport my mind to some place else. What about you? Do you listen to / watch operas? I'd love to hear from the others.

 

[Steve5380]

6 minutes ago, InBangkok said:

For goodness sake don’t be so childish. That does not befit a 77 year old man!

 

The topic of this thread was clearly spelled out by the TS. This, you clearly need to be reminded, is about western opera (see below). Specific examples are cited to make the subject perfectly clear. Is ballet and piano music western opera as defined by works such as Lohengrin, Der Rosenkavalier and Tosca?

 

 

I always proudly remark that there is a child in me, and I am blessed by this.  EVERY man, no matter his age, should have a child inside that is acknowledged and welcomed.  And it so happened that my inner child found so hilarious your categoric NO THEY DON'T that the association with Trump was made.  Maybe you could find a less abrupt way to make your points?  And one wonders... what makes you need so strongly to find my videos not belonging here?  Have you forgotten about "live and let live"? And why should Lohengrin and Tosca define what is opera?  They are merely examples of opera.  Why cannot one extend the definition of opera, as long as this extension is correct?  My original post was indeed of a western opera.  Both videos posted are works of art made in the west.  So they are two western opus.  And two western opus are a western opera, since opera is the plural of opus.  Q.E.D.  (don't be afraid of new definitions, the new, which is the way progress is made)   

[InBangkok]

36 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

My original post was indeed of a western opera.  Both videos posted are works of art made in the west.  So they are two western opus.  And two western opus are a western opera, since opera is the plural of opus.  Q.E.D.  (don’t be afraid of new definitions, the new, which is the way progress is made) 

They were nothing to do with western opera. And if you truly believe this you inhabit a very strange world!

 

But back to western opera which is what this thread is all about as defined by the TS. So far Mozart has hardly been mentioned. He was not the first to get away from the classical characters and situations that entranced those who invented the opera art form in 1596 and those composers who followed them. But he fleshed out his characters more completely than his predecessors.

 

Is there any more confused character than Dorabella in Cosi fan tutte? An old friend once worked with Janet Baker in the role. At the end of the performance he went to her dressing room to congratulate her on a wonderful performance. He found her in tears. Thinking there had to be something wrong, he asked if he could help. Allegedly she said she was sad only because she felt Dorabella would never find real happiness in life.

 

And is there any more beautiful short trio than Soave sia il vento when the ladies bid their lovers farewell as they leave for an imaginary conflict? Between them, barely able to hide his amusement, is the mastermind of the ‘plot’ Don Alfonso. This is from an old Unitel video but it is beautifully sung by Gundula Janowitz as Fiordiligi, Christa Ludwig as Dorabella and Walter Berry as Alfonso. Karl Böhm conducts the Vienna Philharmonic. 

 

 

[hard pecs]

Goodness, this thread seems to have gone argumentative around the definition of opera. When my friend was writing his book about the subject, we also had this discussion. But here is what Daniel Snowman, the author of The Gilded Stage, settled on:

 

Some would argue that what distinguishes opera from other forms is that it is aimed to be sung, live, with a properly focused ‘operatic’ voice capable of projecting without electronic amplification. We all know an operatic voice when we hear it: Bryn Terfel has one, Elton John does not.

He didn’t say we should have too narrow a definition, but if it’s too broad the word opera (in our sense) becomes meaningless. Please, be kind and be cordial. I started this thread hoping to share my love of opera and operatic performances with others. So I like other performing art forms too, but that would belong to another thread. 

[wilfgene]

I am under an impression that the whole art form was founded on misunderstanding by some Italians that the Greeks of antiquity had sung through the stage productions.  Having persevered through the Coronation of Poppea by Monteverdi, enjoyed the sound of harpsichord more.

First opera as deemed by @InBangkokwas none other than 'Tosca'.  Told companion it only proved the immortal quote of 'It ain't over till the fat woman sings' as taught by Bart Simpson.

Lighten up.  This ain't no specialized website.  It's the aspirations and inspirations that are aroused in me, that matter, to me.

Even more importantly, a link or an amalgamation of other life experiences.

Somehow reminded of posts by @Greenlivunder 'Penis praised as beautiful', 'Face not good enough for me' and proclamation that he has never disappointed.

 

[hard pecs]

Has anyone seen Anna Nicole (composer Mark-Anthony Turnage, production Richard Jones)? 

[InBangkok]

19 minutes ago, wilfgene said:

I am under an impression lFirst opera as deemed by @InBangkokwas none other than 'Tosca'.  Told companion it only proved the immortal quote of 'It ain't over till the fat woman sings' as taught by Bart Simpson.

Lighten up.

 

No, I have never claimed Tosca as the first opera. But I take your point. All is never serious in opera as at least one book Operatic Disasters has made clear.

All may not be over in Tosca until the fat lady sings, but on at least one occasion it was not the last time she appeared. As Tosca leaps over the battlements of the Castel St. Angelo, it is usual for a bunch of mattresses to be placed out of sight of the audience to break the dear lady’s fall. One company had the bright idea of placing a trampoline as the lady was especially on the large size. Trampolines being somewhat elastic, within seconds she quickly appeared again - and again - and again. It rather brought the opera to a less than dramatic end.

Edited November 9, 2020 by InBangkok

[InBangkok]

1 hour ago, hard pecs said:

Has anyone seen Anna Nicole (composer Mark-Anthony Turnage, production Richard Jones)? 

I missed both it’s outings at the Royal Opera. I hear it was a big success with a relatively young audience.
 

I note that Turnage did not write his own libretto. For a while in the 1970s it seemed to be a fashion for some composers to write their own libretti. I have always felt this is a big mistake. I did attend one of the first series of performances of Tippett’s The Knot Garden. It had a fine cast but I had not much clue what was going on. Around the same time Peter Maxwell Davies had his Taverner produced, again to his own libretto, and Stockhausen produced his own libretto for Donnerstag aus Licht.

 

The only one of those which I thought worked well was Thea Musgrave’s Mary Queen of Scots which I saw in Stuttgart. It is a fine work which I think deserves to be seen more regularly.

Edited November 9, 2020 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

10 hours ago, hard pecs said:

Goodness, this thread seems to have gone argumentative around the definition of opera. When my friend was writing his book about the subject, we also had this discussion. But here is what Daniel Snowman, the author of The Gilded Stage, settled on:

 

Some would argue that what distinguishes opera from other forms is that it is aimed to be sung, live, with a properly focused ‘operatic’ voice capable of projecting without electronic amplification. We all know an operatic voice when we hear it: Bryn Terfel has one, Elton John does not.

He didn’t say we should have too narrow a definition, but if it’s too broad the word opera (in our sense) becomes meaningless. Please, be kind and be cordial. I started this thread hoping to share my love of opera and operatic performances with others. So I like other performing art forms too, but that would belong to another thread. 

 

Hopefully you are not like those individuals who grow a strong sense of ownership of any thread they start and think that it is their duty to patrol "their" thread against predators who deviate from what "their" idea of the thread is.  I have known such cases, and I am careful in the threads I start to dissociate myself from such misplaced feeling of  ownership.

 

As you recognize, the topic of Opera is very diverse.  In the best general terms, it is the combination of music with the visual.  Traditionally the music includes singing, and the visual is a theatrical act on a stage. As @InBangkokrecognizes, ballet can be part of an opera, and the music during ballet not necessarily includes singing.

 

The etymology of the word Opera is the Latin term for a plurality of works.  So a pair of Picasso paintings could be correctly called an Opera.  But I think that I have more justification than that to find that my posts also belong here.  And should this not be left also to the criterion of the poster?  You can find in the thread "Instrumental Music" many videos of vocal music, many segments from Wagner's operas,  and NOBODY has complained about this.  

 

Operas not only include non-singing ballets, but also an abundance of spoken recitativos.  And, oh miracle of modern times, opera has accepted the innovative Sprechgesang, a "singing that is spoken"  and even Sprechstimme.  An example of Sprechgesang is shown in this video:

 

 

 

LOL!!  I can imagine a time when Opera will include... speaking in tongues!

And Opera seems to be very flexible in that it accepts the ATONAL sounds composed by Schoenberg and others instead of music.

 

Hopefully we can respect the universality of art,  and not treat members with pettiness and disrespect claiming that what they post DON'T BELONG in their beloved threads. We gays already have to tolerate so many mandates that we DON'T BELONG!

.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Steve5380