Same-Sex Marriage & Child Adoption + Would You Get Married If It Is Legal? + Should Gay Get Married? (compiled)

[legolas79]

Interesting stories and sharings on this thread. I feel a little saddened that some of us are so jaded with the idea of marriage. I will openly admit that I want to marry the one whom I loved, build a family, have our own children (via surrogate mom). Moral and religious values aside, a marriage is a celebration of love, of commitment, of lives shared.

Perhaps so many of us mistake lust for love, take sex so loosely... that many thinks gays are incapable of long term relationships.

To each of his own, I would say. What you need is someone who disbelieve in the constitution of marriage, like you do, or have sex with anyone, like you might.

For me, I just need to someone who believes in marriage, like I do, and fall in love and be together.

Idealistic? Maybe. But isn't miracle in life all starts as a mere dream?

[realthing]

married or not, does it really matter?

[castaway]

Before, I think marriage between men is very weird ... BUT after watching the full TV series "Queer as Folks" ... I changed my mind :whistle: ... I think it should be only when both of them LOVE each other ...

BUT having children still sounds uncomfortable to me ... even I like children

[latterlim]

Marriage between a man and woman is to legitimise and legalise a Union between two parties and it's consequential actions. To legally permit the action of consumation and sex between the two parties. To acknowledge the legality of their children and have the children's rights protected by law. But, it is true, it is not a bind of the Love between these two parties. The bind of Love can only be from the bottom of the heart itself. It can only be given by a being named human.

[Guest -bobby-]

A true story

Mr Y from SG is already 34 years old and is drawing a high salary

One day a relative from China rang up to say that the family of a good girl is looking for a husband for her and would like an urban man from overseas since this girl has also worked in Hong Kong for 3 years as an accountant

The mother of Mr Y was delighted, : "Get her a visa to Singapore and see how things go" she insisted

The lady came to SG on a 21 days visa. She looked nice and sophisticated. Could get along with Mr Y (unkown to his family he's gay)

After two weeks the, marriage was confirmed as she has only one week left. A marriage application was filed with the registry and $10,000 was send to her parents. (a large sum since she was an accountant)

She returned to China after 21 days and will return 2 months later for the actual wedding

Happily married for three months but things started to change

The lady knew little about accounting (well, can be forgiven)

likes to spend money and send expensive gifts to family and friends (to show she has the means now and is off a higher status) go to expensive outings with friends and pay all the bills

Wanted to chase Mr Y's parent out of the HDB executive apartment (which is in the parents' names)

She is an expert in sexual matters and thought she could use sex to get her ways and control Mr Y (since most men cannot do without good sex)

After one year Mr Y has doubts, did she worked in Hong Kong as an accountant or something else?

Mr Y lost his high paying job

A divorce and $20,000 was agreed upon

She returned to China

Two months later new came that she is pregnant

Six months later she gave birth to a girl, lawyer's letter came with DNA tests confirming Mr Y to be the father

The court has ruled that as Mr Y is the father he has to send $400++ every month for the upkeep of his daughter in China for 18 years

Mr Y has no intention of seeing his daughter, but is $400 or more, poorer every month

[Guest Spiritual]

Marriage comes with sex. Why choose marriage when you can't give the girl "thing" that her friends cannot give and give her all the loves that her friends can easily provide? I rather choose a man whom I love who doesn't love me than a woman whom I don't love but loves me dearly. Pleasurable life tends to be more rewarding than happy life because I only lives once which deserve to be pampered.

[snowball]

selfish & stubborn, that explain all, most people are ugly & just thinking of themself, they don't mind hurting anyone, as long they can get what they want, some even think that the world is theirs

[Guest me]

selfish & stubborn, that explain all, most people are ugly & just thinking of themself, they don't mind hurting anyone, as long they can get what they want, some even think that the world is theirs

A lot of rich people behave like you mentioned to get where they are today, you just have to be mean to achieve what you want in life.

[Clickclock]

hey ppl, this issue has been on my mind for a long time.

I'm envisioning myself to get a partner after my national service is over and that i'll enjoy some time with my boyfriend.

However, i've always wondered if it is ever possible to get create a family in singapore? well legally that is. As in, two guys with children, either through adoption or the use of a surrogate mother.

I know that gay marriage is not possible in singapore, n that countries like argentina has it, i'm wondering if I get married legally overseas with a cert and all, will it be recognised here in singapore? well, to cut it short,

is it possible to have a family with a male partner legally in singapore?

[Guest IamPineapple]

hey ppl, this issue has been on my mind for a long time.

I'm envisioning myself to get a partner after my national service is over and that i'll enjoy some time with my boyfriend.

However, i've always wondered if it is ever possible to get create a family in singapore? well legally that is. As in, two guys with children, either through adoption or the use of a surrogate mother.

I know that gay marriage is not possible in singapore, n that countries like argentina has it, i'm wondering if I get married legally overseas with a cert and all, will it be recognised here in Singapore? well, to cut it short,

is it possible to have a family with a male partner legally in singapore?

Sorry friend... being a AJ in Singapore itself is a illegal as long as the law S377A is still there, although our founder LKY made a statement on public television that he will no longer prosecute gays for being gays. some years back...

refer to this post

http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=26742&st=0

So... Having a R/S without the MSM ( Men having sex with another Men ) ... it's kind of weird don't you think friend... ?

Edited September 26, 2011 by IamPineapple

[briax]

The easiest way to find out is to read the Women's Charter. I cannot remember much about what a lawyer has shared with me but if I did not remember wrongly, by definition (and guided by the Women's Charter), a marriage that is recognised in Singapore is only between a man and a woman.

If you adopt a child overseas or having it through surrogacy, only one person can be the father and the other person can only be recognised as a guardian, not the other father.

http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?actno=REVED-353

[briax]

Here's the part that void same sex marriage under the Women's Charter:

Avoidance of marriages between persons of same sex

12. —(1) A marriage solemnized in Singapore or elsewhere between persons who, at the date of the marriage, are not respectively male and female shall be void.

[30/96]

(2) It is hereby declared that, subject to sections 5, 9, 10, 11 and 22, a marriage solemnized in Singapore or elsewhere between a person who has undergone a sex re-assignment procedure and any person of the opposite sex is and shall be deemed always to have been a valid marriage.

[30/96]

(3) For the purpose of this section —

(a) the sex of any party to a marriage as stated at the time of the marriage in his or her identity card issued under the National Registration Act (Cap. 201) shall be prima facie evidence of the sex of the party; and

[30/96] (b) a person who has undergone a sex re-assignment procedure shall be identified as being of the sex to which the person has been re-assigned.

(4) Nothing in subsection (2) shall validate any such marriage which had been declared by the High Court before 1st May 1997 to be null and void on the ground that the parties were of the same sex.

[Guest Guest]

I live in Germany and entered into a Civil Union with my partner in 2002. We were informed by the Singapore Embassy here in Germany that our Civil Union would NOT be recognized in Singapore.

So rather ironically, I enjoy more rights as a foreigner in a foreign country, than I do as a citizen in my own.

[Guest Aiya]

Got money, migrate overseas where gay marriage is legal. Than buy a child or two from poor and broken family. Set up a small business and live life happily therafter. Singapore too stressful lar, not only discrimination, but cost of livings also high to support a kid and your kid may grow up to discriminate you if society influenced him thru education or news.

[Clickclock]

hey guys, im really appreciative with the response i'm gettign about my question, guess its clear cut that such a life is forbidden in singapore. But with 20 years to go, (im 18), im rather optimistic that our country will be opening up sooner or later, 20 years is a long time and stuff.

[Guest Guest]

think there are 2 issues here - (1) legality of same-sex marriage and (2) custodianship of a child by same-sex couples. would be useful to discuss these separately cos the issues involved could possibly be different.

[Guest Lady gaga]

hey guys, im really appreciative with the response i'm gettign about my question, guess its clear cut that such a life is forbidden in singapore. But with 20 years to go, (im 18), im rather optimistic that our country will be opening up sooner or later, 20 years is a long time and stuff.

Will u be the next PM or president of SGP, opening the legally of same sex marriage and adoption of kids?? I will vote for u. I worry how my kids will address me, daddy or mummy..... Our population shall be increased, and govt will be very happy. PLU can have babies bonus....... Hahaha 

[Clickclock]

well, i've actually thought about it, if i have a husband with a child, the child will call me "daddy" and he/she will call my husband "papa"

[Guest Wake up]

well, i've actually thought about it, if i have a husband with a child, the child will call me "daddy" and he/she will call my husband "papa"

You are really in your dreamland. It is time to wake up and we are living in Singapore. This will not be happen here, or else you settle at other places and this fairy tale will be reallize for you. U can act in hollywood in the new coming movies 2 men's with a babies in Asia context. It will be a hit box office for PLU.

[Guest guest]

It seems that we could only do this in China ... this country is actually getting more and more gay tolerant ; in fact , I have been there holding hands with my bf when we went to the parks or shopping , and no body bothers about it and so far no discriminaing stares too...somehow people are still friendly with you .... anyway , they do not have laws discriminating gays too ; and there are people saying that in time to come certain parts of China may acknowledge gay marriages .... i will not be surprised .... well in Singapore , deep inside we are still very conservative, even many gays are conservative too ; anyway , it is ok la as long as 2 guys still can live together and own a HDB flat after they are 35 yo ;-) ... to me it is an indirect way that Govt is acknowledging gay existence and respecting our lifestyle as long as we stay 乖乖 ; also if the Govt let it like the west , many of our older generations would ' faint ' and they would shake head and criticise the Govt ... it is not easy to be the Govt la , it is impossible for them to please everyone ... they have to seek the middle path , and we Singaporean gays are quite fortunate liao ...

But may be to mitigate the effect of a depopulation , the Govt should allow finicially well off or stable singles ( whether male or female ) to have children through surrogation .... minding the fact that many Singaporeans are choosing to be singles and this trend will go on , no matter what incentives they introduce ....

[Guest Guest]

hey guys, im really appreciative with the response i'm gettign about my question, guess its clear cut that such a life is forbidden in singapore. But with 20 years to go, (im 18), im rather optimistic that our country will be opening up sooner or later, 20 years is a long time and stuff.

good for you. yes, it's good to be hopeful. it was not too long ago when we could not even look at pxxn (regardless of straight or gay) in singapore, and it was even more recent when the word "gay" was not even found in public literature in singapore... not to mention saunas, etc... we have really come a long way in the last 10 years... of cos, a long way to go still, but still, it is in the right direction!

:-)

[Guest guest]

just go to singapore sauna and pick up a 18 yr old guy for adoption . this is much easier and faster . he can immediately call u papa. u just need to support him in his studies and allowances.

[Guest Guest]

give the orphan a break...let him/her have a straight parents pls.....we are gay and sld not thought of having an adopted child into a family as our own.

if u r desperate for fatherly love, u can adopt an orphan in a home, provide financial support and hopefully when u r old, this orphan is appreciative enough to take care of you.

otherwise, go for dogs.

[Guest 18 years old]

Yeah. Save the milk powder $$$ and he can drink sperm very protein. He will be very fit. If you are tired, he can massage and u are horny, he can do wonder. Do not need to spend on hotel room and very safe.

[snowball]

well legally that is. As in, two guys with children, either through adoption or the use of a surrogate mother.

sometimes i wonder, when those kids grow up, how many can really accept they " family background " & will still proud of their " parents? "

no doubt that some will appreciate, but facts is how many cases that really able to be inspire & encouraging?

Edited September 26, 2011 by snowball

[Foreign Talent]

I live in Germany and entered into a Civil Union with my partner in 2002. We were informed by the Singapore Embassy here in Germany that our Civil Union would NOT be recognized in Singapore.

So rather ironically, I enjoy more rights as a foreigner in a foreign country, than I do as a citizen in my own.

Thank you. So much for the haters who claim that Asians are treated as second class citizens in the west based on some crazy stories on 'harsh racism'.

Despite having served NS, Singaporean gay males are 2nd class citizens in Singapore because of their sexuality and the fact that they are burdened with NS reservists, something these foreign talents are spared of.

It would be great if the government could level the playing field by demanding that they foreign talents served some kind of compulsory community service of at least 10-14 days a year, so they are equally burdened.

As as you've said, if a Singaporean migrates to the West, he is treated as a first class citizen on equal footing as everyone else. This fallacy about 'racism' is complete rubbish. There is far more racism directed towards the Malays and the Indians in Singapore than in the west.

[Foreign Talent]

sometimes i wonder, when those kids grow up, how many can really accept they " family background " & will still proud of their " parents? "

no doubt that some will appreciate, but facts is how many cases that really able to be inspire & encouraging?

This comes down to the quality of the parenting. I know of plenty of kids with straight parents who grow up hating their parents. I have friends who no longer speak to their parents because they have fallen out.

The bottom line is this: parenting is tough work, it's so difficult! You need to be a good parent to earn your child's respect - if you are a bad parent, then don't expect the child to offer you unconditional love just because you're the parent. Many straight parents get it wrong - and it boils down to poor parenting skills and setting bad examples for your children.

Hence these parenting challenges are the same whether you're a same sex couple or a hetero couple. The grass is NOT greener on the other side of the fence.

[oralb]

There are many questions and here's a quick recap

1. Singapore does not recognize same-sex union, regardless it is legally processed overseas

2. Singapore law does not allow surrogate mother

3. Adoptation is a lengthy process, unless the kid is family related, and it is only reserve for hetrosexual couples. It is very rare to have a single guy granted parenthood over kids (though it did happen before) even so it is as legal guardian and not as parent.

[Guest Marad44]

If same-sex marriage were made legal would it make a difference to you?

[Foreign Talent]

On this topic, I would like to make a simple point: this would only make a difference to gay people who are in stable, successful relationships and it won't make any difference to those who are single.

An analogy: say the Singapore government decides to offer a 'pet subsidy' to all pet owners of Singapore, if you have a pet, you can claim $1000 per year to help you care for your pet, a gift from the government. Would this affect you? The answer is simple: YES it would affect you IF you have a pet. But if you do not have a pet, then it doesn't affect you, you won't benefit from this.

Would you go get a pet just because there's a pet subsidy? Probably not, cos if you really wanted a pet, then you would've done so already - you won't be doing it just for the money. Likewise, would you get into a gay relationship or settle down properly just because gays can now get married? Probably not, cos if you have met the right guy, you would've settled down already. The law simply isn't going to change your mindset on the issue - either you want to settle down or you don't.

So the kinds of answers you get in this thread would depend on whether or not the person answering is single or in a stable relationship.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Foreign Talent

[Guest Marad44]

... this would only make a difference to gay people who are in stable, successful relationships and it won't make any difference to those who are single...

Good point FT. Would it impact you?

[Foreign Talent]

Good point FT. Would it impact you?

Yes it would - I am already married (in the UK to an Irish man) but it causes immigration issues as I am working in Singapore and the Singaporean government simply reuses to acknowledge that I am married to a man. That's why I split my time between Singapore and London because I can't bring my husband over as a spouse to Singapore. Say if I was married to a British woman, then no problem, she can come and join me in Singapore as my spouse.

My husband's job ties him to the UK anyway, so it's not like he is in the position to join me in Singapore. But it does show how unequal the law can be when it comes to the issue of immigration. My hubby is coming to spend some time with me in Singapore later this month and he has to enter with a 30 day tourist visa each time. But if the SG govt does recognize same-sex partnerships, then technically speaking, he could potentially join me in Singapore, rather than me making so many flights between London and Singapore (but hey, that's good for my air miles ...)

But if the tables were turned - let's say a Singaporean man working in London wanted to bring his Singaporean boyfriend to join him in the UK, the law does permit that in the UK and the bf would have the right to study, work etc, do anything he wants in the UK rather than just come in with a tourist visa!

Immigration is just one big area that affects same-sex couples - a lot of Singaporean gays are oblivious to it because either they are:

a) single

b) in a relationship with another SIngaporean

So they simply don't see how this can affect a gay couple if they hold different passports.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Foreign Talent

[suckling_pig]

If same-sex marriage were made legal would it make a difference to you?

Marad44,

I am curious, why do you ask this question?

SP

[Guest Marad44]

Yes it would...Immigration is just one big area that affects same-sex couples...

My sympathies FT. I know an American-French couple in Singapore, the American on work visa, the French not and having to leave and return. That burns a hole in their pocket but while away, the French looks up their property in the States and his folks in France. I guess he too rakes up air miles as you do. Best regards.

[Guest Marad44]

Marad44, I am curious, why do you ask this question?

Hi SP, I am curious as well ~ to know if marriage is as important to gays here as in the west. What is your view? Edited October 9, 2011 by Marad44

[Foreign Talent]

Hi SP, I am curious as well ~ to know if marriage is as important to gays here as in the west. What is your view?

May I just point out that even in the west, it only affects those who are in serious relationships. David Cameron the prime minster of the UK announced this week that before the next election, "gay civil partnerships" will be upgraded to full "civil marriages". Already right now, gay civil partnerships are of the same status as civil weddings in the UK and the difference in the name was only done to pacify the religious communities - but just to demonstrate just how gay friendly he is (and perhaps to distract us from how screwed up the economy is), Cameron has promised to bring in that final change in the name to drop the term 'civil partnership' and use the word 'marriage' instead.

It's all well and good in the name of equality etc - but hey, you don't get into a relationship because you want to get married. You get into a relationship because you happen to meet someone nice and love blossoms. I think you may be getting it the wrong way round? Did you think that more gays would settle down in Singapore if they could get married like straight people? Let's put it this way, even in the straight world where people can settle down and get married - many straight marriages end in divorces (particularly in the west), they don't stay together just because they're married. Rather, it's the love (or lack of) that determines whether a couple stays together or gets divorced.

Marriage is there as a legal entity, an institution to serve couples who are in love, it's but a framework couples use to define their relationship. It does not, however, act as an incentive for couples to get together - that incentive, is quite simply, love.

[suckling_pig]

Hi SP, I am curious as well ~ to know if marriage is as important to gays here as in the west. What is your view?

Well, even if marriage is viable in Sg, I won't be getting married. For me, marriage is symbolic and public ritual meant to inform the community of the couple's social contract of excluding all others. It has its roots in the mundane act of child rearing (for the woman), and the guarantee of regular sex (for the man). In the contemporary context, and especially in the gay community, it loses its original context. What remains is:

• Legal uses - recognition of spousal privileges for immigration, inheritance, state benefits like pensions etc
  
• Emotional uses - popular culture has entrenched in the minds of the general public the idea of the romantic "the One for me", "the Soul Mate", "He who completes me". At the very base of this, the person believes that by getting his ideal partner, all his problems will be solved and they will live happily ever after. I probably don't have to tell you I believe there is much more to reality than this.
  

For me, I have no need for the legal uses. For the emotional uses, I am comfortable to the very personal commitment I make with my partner. I do not believe that it takes another "soul mate" to complete me, but I view every person as an individual evolving and developing in his own direction. So my relationship with my partner is purely because I want to be with him. We are both individuals who are not shackled to each other, but for 22 years have chosen to see each other almost every day. We are both constantly evolving, and if one day, he finds somebody that gives him more joy, then I am happy for him.

Is this strange to you?

[Guest Marad44]

Is this strange to you?

It doesn't SP if it means all the same to you. Different folks, different strokes. What's good for the goose doesn't have to be good for the gander. It is for this reason I put the question to the Forum.

Personally, I see huge benefits in the full grant of marital rights and benefits which I am sure you are aware of; FT and his spouse being united would be one of the benefits.

Nonetheless, to each his own.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Marad44

[derryfawne]

At 21, not yet.

But yes, marriage matters. It gives you rights/benefits and, in the case if something bad happens, law protection.

Edited October 9, 2011 by derryfawne

[Blissfull]

I think it will make a social impact, slowly shaping the manner of thinking for the newer generations. Which then, will slowly affect individuals, like me.

If it were to legalise, I think it would make a positive difference to me.

[Chub71]

I suppose it would impact those who wants to buy HDB housing and not wait till they are 35. It is not cheap to rent from private and HDB for those couples who are already living together or planning to. I've got a few friends who are doing that and burning a big fat hole in their pockets!

[Mercutio]

I think this is a mountain on the other side of a valley yet to be forded. It's hard enough getting gay people in Singapore to be more active in abolishing 377A.

[Guest guest]

why there is no one in BW get marry after all this year? at least a gay marriage ?so we gay from bw can attend mah.gachi muchi can start the ball rolling first since he is most popular with cute guys.

[GachiMuchi]

If you have been a follower of BW, you should know that Pater Tenebrarum just got married in the States. I am afraid that you weren't in the guest list since you are not even a member.

The balls had already rolled off into the sunset.

[Guest Guest]

If you have been a follower of BW, you should know that Pater Tenebrarum just got married in the States.

I don't know why he even bothered to announce it in BW. I mean, who cares really, other than probably his family and friends?

[Guest Guest]

why there is no one in BW get marry after all this year? at least a gay marriage ?so we gay from bw can attend mah.gachi muchi can start the ball rolling first since he is most popular with cute guys.

you're such an idiot. No better question to ask?

[Guest Marad44]

I don't know why he even bothered to announce it in BW...

Perhaps one reason was to bring a closure, that he was taken & unlisted and to thank the guys who were interested.

Eh Phil?

Edited November 11, 2011 by Marad44

[qedcwc]

I don't know why he even bothered to announce it in BW. I mean, who cares really, other than probably his family and friends?

And I wonder why you even bothered to care whether he announced it in BW or not when you’re already not even bothered to know or care anyway….

[Guest Cas. engeswas]

And I wonder why you even bothered to care whether he announced it in BW or not when you’re already not even bothered to know or care anyway….

??????

Stop bringing tautologies into the discussion!!

Who cares or doesn't care about his gay marriage doesn't matter, the issue is why he even announced it all over the place in the first place?

[qedcwc]

??????

Stop bringing tautologies into the discussion!!

Who cares or doesn't care about his gay marriage doesn't matter, the issue is why he even announced it all over the place in the first place?

Did you even see a thread dedicated to his announcement of marriage?

No, it was briefly mentioned in one of the threads. That's how people know.