For gays who will be seniors one day - A Steve5380 Topic!

[singalion]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:09 PM, Steve5380 said:

Singalion has been caught in a lot of mistakes and false information,

 

Where?

 

Evidence?

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:54 PM, singalion said:

 

it is not my recommendation, Therefore it is not my maths.

It is meant as minimum 12 hours due to ketosis reasons

 

You never answered my question of what you native language is? 

 

Because in your native language,  perhaps "no more than 12 hours" is a minimum,  not a maximum!  😲😁😃

[Steve5380]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:11 PM, singalion said:

 

Where?

 

Evidence?

 

 

 

It is all in the earlier posts your wrote and my response to them.

 

I really enjoy talking with you,  but it is now my bed time and I am rigorous about getting my 8 hours of sleep...  during my 16 hours of fasting.  Good night,  and wish me nice dreams   

[InBangkok]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:19 PM, Steve5380 said:

It is all in the earlier posts your wrote and my response to them.

But you have never responded to my question posted for at least the 3rd time less than an hour ago!!!!

[Steve5380]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:24 PM, InBangkok said:

But you have never responded to my question posted for at least the 3rd time less than an hour ago!!!!

 

Your question has not been responded in your mind because you don't accept a response to it.  

 

And your question is so dumb!:  It starts with: "Assume you are a young man  in Singapore or other parts of Asia and you are in your 20s, 30s or 40s. perhaps even in your 50s."

 

Why would I assume that?  I am NOT a young man in Singapore.  Ask your question to YOUNG MAN IN SINGAPORE.  

 

And I made it clear that one should not have simply "a diet of 5-day fasting".  Like working out in a gym should not be to do all weight lifting with 100% of your maximum capacity.  

 

And "how should readers fit in a 5-day fast in their busy schedules".    You tell me... how you fit in your extensive travels to listen to live music, in your busy schedule?     The answer is simple:  VERY SELDOM!  Perhaps a couple of times a year.

 

I also have given you the perfect example of my son.  With little doubt he has a busier schedule than most readers here.  Yet he has no problems with his intermittent fasting.

 

So please stop coming up here with your dumb "question",  a question that you bring up to perpetuate a silly conversation. I have exposed enough material to answer any decent questions about fasting, in particular intermittent fasting, and you should know perfectly well how to do it,  if you have this intention.  

 

Maybe you already started fasting, or plan to do it,  but you would NEVER IN THE WORLD say so because you want to keep your perpetual nagging.  

[InBangkok]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:12 PM, Steve5380 said:

And your question is so dumb!:  It starts with: "Assume you are a young man  in Singapore or other parts of Asia and you are in your 20s, 30s or 40s. perhaps even in your 50s."

 

Why would I assume that?  I am NOT a young man in Singapore.  Ask your question to YOUNG MAN IN SINGAPORE.

What utter rubbish! In a Singapore chat room with a membership and readership of mostly young guys (certainly averaging less than half your age), you propose water fasting for up to 5 days as a way of promoting longevity. You have spent countless boring posts on this quack theory. But you have never once explained how a young person anywhere can actually undertake such a long period of fasting without food without doing considerable damage to his physical and probably also mental health. 

 

The fact is that no busy young man as I have described would achieve any benefit whatever from 4 or 5 day water fasts. They would collapse from lack of calories very quickly. But the real reason you refuse to to reply to my question is for the very simple reason that it in no way fits in with your scenario. You describe a regimen for a near octogenarian German/Argentinian/American who has a sedentary lifestyle (oh, I forgot, you occasionally go to the gym and do your housework). For a busy young man who works for a living and enjoys an active life, it is pure quackery with zero benefit.

Edited February 17, 2022 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

On 2/16/2022 at 11:54 PM, InBangkok said:

What utter rubbish! In a Singapore chat room with a membership and readership of mostly young guys (certainly averaging less than half your age), you propose water fasting for up to 5 days as a way of promoting longevity. You have spent countless boring posts on this quack theory. But you have never once explained how a young person anywhere can actually undertake such a long period of fasting without food without doing considerable damage to his physical and probably also mental health. 

 

The fact is that no busy young man as I have described would achieve any benefit whatever from 4 or 5 day water fasts. They would collapse from lack of calories very quickly. But the real reason you refuse to to reply to my question is for the very simple reason that it in no way fits in with your scenario. You describe a regimen for a near octogenarian German/Argentinian/American who has a sedentary lifestyle (oh, I forgot, you occasionally go to the gym and do your housework). For a busy young man who works for a living and enjoys an active life, it is pure quackery with zero benefit.

 

What utter rubbish!

 

Your distortions reach the level of LYING!  Yes,  you are a liar,  a shameless liar.

 

You have no way to know if my life is sedentary.  IT IS NOT.  in what it is different is that it is void of any STRESS.

 

It is the experts who propose that longer term fasting, like 4 or 5 days and more,  has a positive effect on longevity.  I have no means to verify this.  I merely pass on the information,  because I trust the source.   And I do it not only for young busy men,  but for fellow gays of any age,  including and older fat man like you, who is not busy at all but passes his time globe trotting after live music.  

 

After all the information you have been exposed to,  to write that fasting is pure quackery with zero benefit is A SHAMEFUL LIE by a shameless individual.  You have ZERO proof that it has zero benefit.   Ha ha ha... you are like a zero on the left. 

 

 

[singalion]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:21 PM, Steve5380 said:

It is the experts who propose that longer term fasting, like 4 or 5 days and more,  has a positive effect on longevity.  I have no means to verify this.  I merely pass on the information,  because I trust the source

 

Your use of wording is misleading.

 

You can only write "some " experts who propose. It are not "the experts".

Actually, they are only a few.

Most nutrition experts don't propose any fasting at all.

And surely, they do not recommend long term fasting like 4 or 5 days. You are exaggerating again.

What they propose is a once a week at max.

 

Do you know the meaning of intermittent?

 

If you had done some research, you had seen that the whole issue is critical.

 

 

No health expert is promoting any prolonged fasting over plenty of days!

Please get back to ground and stop to post here things that are irresponsible.

 

 

How does intermittent fasting work?

There are several different ways to do intermittent fasting, but they are all based on choosing regular time periods to eat and fast. For instance, you might try eating only during an eight-hour period each day and fast for the remainder. Or you might choose to eat only one meal a day two days a week.

 

Intermittent Fasting Plans

It’s important to check with your doctor before starting intermittent fasting. Once you get his or her go-ahead, the actual practice is simple. You can pick a daily approach, which restricts daily eating to one six- to eight-hour period each day. For instance, you may choose to try 16/8 fasting: eating for eight hours and fasting for 16. Williams is a fan of the daily regimen: She says most people find it easy to stick with this pattern over the long term.

Another, known as the 5:2 approach, involves eating regularly five days a week. For the other two days, you limit yourself to one 500–600 calorie meal. An example would be if you chose to eat normally on every day of the week except Mondays and Thursdays, which would be your one-meal days.

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

 

Can you Steve please keep up with the advice of experts instead of pretending what you post here is following the advice of experts. I find it very irresponsible what you are doing.

Also your insisting stubbornness to stick to your story line is getting laughable.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by singalion

[InBangkok]

On 2/17/2022 at 10:21 PM, Steve5380 said:

What utter rubbish!

 

Your distortions reach the level of LYING!  Yes,  you are a liar,  a shameless liar.

 

You have no way to know if my life is sedentary.  IT IS NOT.  in what it is different is that it is void of any STRESS.

 

It is the experts who propose that longer term fasting, like 4 or 5 days and more,  has a positive effect on longevity.  I have no means to verify this.  I merely pass on the information,  because I trust the source.   And I do it not only for young busy men,  but for fellow gays of any age,  including and older fat man like you, who is not busy at all but passes his time globe trotting after live music.  

 

After all the information you have been exposed to,  to write that fasting is pure quackery with zero benefit is A SHAMEFUL LIE by a shameless individual.  You have ZERO proof that it has zero benefit.   Ha ha ha... you are like a zero on the left. 

 

 

And still, after all that nonsense, you fail to answer what is really a very simple question! Why? For the simple reason that for a working, active boy/man in his 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s the water fasting is not merely a total waste of time, it would be medically dangerous! If you do not agree, answer the question! Simple! BY not answering you are agreeing with my premise!

[Steve5380]

On 2/18/2022 at 1:31 AM, singalion said:

 

Your use of wording is misleading.

 

You can only write "some " experts who propose. It are not "the experts".

Actually, they are only a few.

Most nutrition experts don't propose any fasting at all.

And surely, they do not recommend long term fasting like 4 or 5 days. You are exaggerating again.

What they propose is a once a week at max.

 

Do you know the meaning of intermittent?

 

If you had done some research, you had seen that the whole issue is critical.

 

 

No health expert is promoting any prolonged fasting over plenty of days!

Please get back to ground and stop to post here things that are irresponsible.

 

 

 

Oh!   Don't let InBangkok catch you with that "It"...  He will bash your "imperfect" English without mercy,  even if it is your second language,  because he may not understand what "second language" means.  He may think that it is a language that got Silver instead of Gold.   Ohhh...   I forget that you two tenors are buddies,  so you will not shoot at each other but will direct your weapons at the Baritone.  

 

And you keep posting off topic.  I created this topic to made helpful information available to our fellow gays who want to optimize their chances of a healthy old life, or want to correct some health problem.   It is NOT a thread to post off topic with scare tactics,  like to say that health experts don't propose fasting at all. 

[Steve5380]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:04 AM, InBangkok said:

And still, after all that nonsense, you fail to answer what is really a very simple question! Why? For the simple reason that for a working, active boy/man in his 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s the water fasting is not merely a total waste of time, it would be medically dangerous! If you do not agree, answer the question! Simple! BY not answering you are agreeing with my premise!

 

What a bunch of utmost nonsense!    But I will answer your question.

 

For any active, working boy or man in his 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s,  that is,  practically any adult in good health, not handicapped and strong enough to work, fasting is a good and practice that helps in staying healthy, and if mixed with some occasional longer time fasting, it might improve longevity in good health later on.  

 

For these individuals there is practically no danger in adopting a nutrition scheme of intermittent fasting, that can be as easy as to skip eating at breakfast and only eat lunch and dinner.  This scheme does to require any extra time or effort, just the discipline to do it.  This can even apply to a healthy 78 year old man.    

[Guest Guest]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:26 PM, Steve5380 said:

Oh!   Don't let InBangkok catch you with that "It"...  He will bash your "imperfect" English without mercy,  even if it is your second language,  because he may not understand what "second language" means.  He may think that it is a language that got Silver instead of Gold. 

 

[Steve5380]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:31 PM, Guest Guest said:

 

 

Is this you and your wife in a soap opera?   Very comical. 

[InBangkok]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:39 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

What a bunch of utmost nonsense!    But I will answer your question.

 

For any active, working boy or man in his 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s,  that is,  practically any adult in good health, not handicapped and strong enough to work, fasting is a good and practice that helps in staying healthy, and if mixed with some occasional longer time fasting, it might improve longevity in good health later on.  

 

For these individuals there is practically no danger in adopting a nutrition scheme of intermittent fasting, that can be as easy as to skip eating at breakfast and only eat lunch and dinner.  This scheme does to require any extra time or effort, just the discipline to do it.  This can even apply to a healthy 78 year old man.    

Welll I thank you for that clarification - finally. But you still do not answer the question. In your answer above, you talk about intermittent fasting by skipping one meal a day. Let me remind you that for half this thread which you started, most of your proposals over the last 3 weeks have concerned 4 or 5 day water fasts - not merely one meal a day. 

 

So you have proved me right. You agree that water fasting for 4 or 5 days is not something that anyone in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and possible older should even consider. That being the case, why have you spent so many posts arguing its merits? There are zero merits of a 5 day water fast for young active men - only consequent medical problems.

[Steve5380]

On 2/19/2022 at 1:13 AM, InBangkok said:

Welll I thank you for that clarification - finally. But you still do not answer the question. In your answer above, you talk about intermittent fasting by skipping one meal a day. Let me remind you that for half this thread which you started, most of your proposals over the last 3 weeks have concerned 4 or 5 day water fasts - not merely one meal a day. 

 

So you have proved me right. You agree that water fasting for 4 or 5 days is not something that anyone in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and possible older should even consider. That being the case, why have you spent so many posts arguing its merits? There are zero merits of a 5 day water fast for young active men - only consequent medical problems.

 

I have not "clarified" anything.  Had you read the abundant information I have posted,  you would not need any clarification.

 

This thread is not intended for any age in particular.  Read the title!  it is "for gays who will be seniors one day"  That is, any of our fellow readers at BW can ;pick up whatever information applies to them  and make good use of it.

 

And I am afraid that I have to prove you wrong again.  "zero merits of a 5 day water fast"  is definitely wrong!  Most people will benefit from it,  when they do it correctly.  And there is information in this thread about how to do it correctly.

 

The same as most people will benefit from a 5 mile run.  But you don't start one good day running 5 miles ( unless you are escaping from someone or something ).  You start running short distances, and progressively increase them to what is comfortable and efficient for you. 

 

If there are any readers here who are overweight they should realize that getting used to fasting, including some longer time fasting, can be an effective way to repair their metabolism and lose weight down to the optimum weight for them.  If there are any readers who are pre-diabetic or have full diabetes type 2, at risk of having a cursed life of chronic diabetes, they can find information here about how to reverse their diabetic condition and recover insulin sensitivity thanks to fasting, and with some medical supervision they can engage in longer fasting times,  like a week or... weeks! 

 

You may not know it,  but there are specialist doctors who treat patients in their dedicated clinics where they reverse their patient's diabetes with high success, applying long-time water only fasting and improvements in their diets.    

[Guest Guest]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:15 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

I have not "clarified" anything.  Had you read the abundant information I have posted,  you would not need any clarification.

 

This thread is not intended for any age in particular.  Read the title!  it is "for gays who will be seniors one day"  That is, any of our fellow readers at BW can ;pick up whatever information applies to them  and make good use of it.

 

And I am afraid that I have to prove you wrong again.  "zero merits of a 5 day water fast"  is definitely wrong!  Most people will benefit from it,  when they do it correctly.  And there is information in this thread about how to do it correctly.

 

The same as most people will benefit from a 5 mile run.  But you don't start one good day running 5 miles ( unless you are escaping from someone or something ).  You start running short distances, and progressively increase them to what is comfortable and efficient for you. 

 

If there are any readers here who are overweight they should realize that getting used to fasting, including some longer time fasting, can be an effective way to repair their metabolism and lose weight down to the optimum weight for them.  If there are any readers who are pre-diabetic or have full diabetes type 2, at risk of having a cursed life of chronic diabetes, they can find information here about how to reverse their diabetic condition and recover insulin sensitivity thanks to fasting, and with some medical supervision they can engage in longer fasting times,  like a week or... weeks! 

 

You may not know it,  but there are specialist doctors who treat patients in their dedicated clinics where they reverse their patient's diabetes with high success, applying long-time water only fasting and improvements in their diets.    

 

Steve with his snake oil 

 

 

 

[InBangkok]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:15 AM, Steve5380 said:

And I am afraid that I have to prove you wrong again.  "zero merits of a 5 day water fast"  is definitely wrong!  Most people will benefit from it,  when they do it correctly.  And there is information in this thread about how to do it correctly.

 

The same as most people will benefit from a 5 mile run.  But you don't start one good day running 5 miles ( unless you are escaping from someone or something ).  You start running short distances, and progressively increase them to what is comfortable and efficient for you. 

The first part pf your answer is total bullshit! The second is no doubt true. My 38-year old nephew runs marathons. He probably does much longer than 5-mile runs along with his wife every weekend. 

 

As he told me on the phone yesterday evening, if he went even one day without food, given his work, social and family commitments, he would feel utterly dreadful and certainly faint. Building up to 5 days of water fasting for a young man in the prime of his life with a busy job, family commitments, and an active social and sporting life, would be complete medical disaster. And his mother and uncle are doctors.

 

Quit the quackery once and for all before you persuade some young impressionable BW member to undergo medical and probably also psychological problems. 5-day water fasting may work for a largely sedentary near octogenarian. But not for everyone else.

[Steve5380]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:25 PM, Guest Guest said:

 

Steve with his snake oil 

 

 

 

 

No.  This is Guest Guest showing a bottle with a dumb tag,

 

that in reality is full of the whiskey he cannot stay away from.

[Steve5380]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:41 PM, InBangkok said:

The first part pf your answer is total bullshit! The second is no doubt true. My 38-year old nephew runs marathons. He probably does much longer than 5-mile runs along with his wife every weekend. 

 

As he told me on the phone yesterday evening, if he went even one day without food, given his work, social and family commitments, he would feel utterly dreadful and certainly faint. Building up to 5 days of water fasting for a young man in the prime of his life with a busy job, family commitments, and an active social and sporting life, would be complete medical disaster. And his mother and uncle are doctors.

 

Quit the quackery once and for all before you persuade some young impressionable BW member to undergo medical and probably also psychological problems. 5-day water fasting may work for a largely sedentary near octogenarian. But not for everyone else.

 

What a bunch of utmost nonsense!  Your nephew may not be an expert in nutrition.  And all you are bashing is the idea that a 5 day fasting should be done while marathon running.  something you invented here. 

 

You seem to be running out of dumb things to write!

[InBangkok]

On 2/20/2022 at 8:28 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

What a bunch of utmost nonsense!  Your nephew may not be an expert in nutrition.  And all you are bashing is the idea that a 5 day fasting should be done while marathon running.  something you invented here. 

 

You seem to be running out of dumb things to write!

Back to your usual tricks. You cannot sensibly argue out of you position so you resort to trashing the poster. Why you are permitted to post what for young people could be very dangerous medical information here beats me!

Edited February 21, 2022 by InBangkok

[singalion]

On 2/18/2022 at 3:31 PM, singalion said:

 

Your use of wording is misleading.

 

You can only write "some " experts who propose. It are not "the experts".

Actually, they are only a few.

Most nutrition experts don't propose any fasting at all.

And surely, they do not recommend long term fasting like 4 or 5 days. You are exaggerating again.

What they propose is a once a week at max.

 

Do you know the meaning of intermittent?

 

If you had done some research, you had seen that the whole issue is critical.

 

 

No health expert is promoting any prolonged fasting over plenty of days!

Please get back to ground and stop to post here things that are irresponsible.

 

 

How does intermittent fasting work?

There are several different ways to do intermittent fasting, but they are all based on choosing regular time periods to eat and fast. For instance, you might try eating only during an eight-hour period each day and fast for the remainder. Or you might choose to eat only one meal a day two days a week.

 

Intermittent Fasting Plans

It’s important to check with your doctor before starting intermittent fasting. Once you get his or her go-ahead, the actual practice is simple. You can pick a daily approach, which restricts daily eating to one six- to eight-hour period each day. For instance, you may choose to try 16/8 fasting: eating for eight hours and fasting for 16. Williams is a fan of the daily regimen: She says most people find it easy to stick with this pattern over the long term.

Another, known as the 5:2 approach, involves eating regularly five days a week. For the other two days, you limit yourself to one 500–600 calorie meal. An example would be if you chose to eat normally on every day of the week except Mondays and Thursdays, which would be your one-meal days.

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

 

Can you Steve please keep up with the advice of experts instead of pretending what you post here is following the advice of experts. I find it very irresponsible what you are doing.

Also your insisting stubbornness to stick to your story line is getting laughable.

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/18/2022 at 11:26 PM, Steve5380 said:

Oh!   Don't let InBangkok catch you with that "It"...  He will bash your "imperfect" English without mercy,  even if it is your second language,  because he may not understand what "second language" means.  He may think that it is a language that got Silver instead of Gold.   Ohhh...   I forget that you two tenors are buddies,  so you will not shoot at each other but will direct your weapons at the Baritone.  

 

And you keep posting off topic.  I created this topic to made helpful information available to our fellow gays who want to optimize their chances of a healthy old life, or want to correct some health problem.   It is NOT a thread to post off topic with scare tactics,  like to say that health experts don't propose fasting at all. 

 

I just wonder what of my post was Off topic?

 

It was exactly on the topic of your irresponsible continuation of promoting prolonged fasting life styles to BW readers.

 

My complete post was a summary of experts what they think about your 5 day fasting.

 

Can you tell why that was off topic???

 

I wrote already that night time intermittent fasting of 8 hours may have health or slimming benefits in a different post.

But your proposal and repeated promotion of 4 - 5 days fasting is irresponsible.

 

 

Lately, your only response is to claim something is "off topic".

 

The only thing off topic are your personal attacks and alleged grammar errors.

 

 

 

Here you have again what the experts and doctors say about fasting:

 

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

The post is from the Johns Hopkins Medicine from Johns Hopkins University and not from some self proclaimed Shaman.

 

 

 

So you think responsible people would propose to take dangerous life risks and programs that result in gaining more weight???

 

 

[singalion]

I have no clue why it is so difficult for Steve 5380 to accept that the majority of medical experts, doctors, and nutritionists would not recommend prolonged fasting periods.

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 12:05 AM, InBangkok said:

Back to your usual tricks. You cannot sensibly argue out of you position so you resort to trashing the poster. Why you are permitted to post what for young people could be very dangerous medical information here beats me!

 

To say that promoting the healthy practice of fasting is "posting very dangerous medical information"  can only come from a poster who is horrified at the idea of not eating his three meals a day full of fattening processed food and some junk food plus glasses of wine. No wonder he is overweight.  He is horrified at the idea that nice good looking SG Asians could have more common sense and discipline than he has,  and so be successful at practicing something that may keep them young and healthy for as long as possible.

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:27 AM, singalion said:

 

 

 

I just wonder what of my post was Off topic?

 

It was exactly on the topic of your irresponsible continuation of promoting prolonged fasting life styles to BW readers.

 

My complete post was a summary of experts what they think about your 5 day fasting.

 

Can you tell why that was off topic???

 

I wrote already that night time intermittent fasting of 8 hours may have health or slimming benefits in a different post.

But your proposal and repeated promotion of 4 - 5 days fasting is irresponsible.

 

 

Lately, your only response is to claim something is "off topic".

 

The only thing off topic are your personal attacks and alleged grammar errors.

 

 

 

Here you have again what the experts and doctors say about fasting:

 

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

The post is from the Johns Hopkins Medicine from Johns Hopkins University and not from some self proclaimed Shaman.

 

 

 

So you think responsible people would propose to take dangerous life risks and programs that result in gaining more weight???

 

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  What I meant by "off topic" is not so much in the subject but the intention.  I started this thread with the intention to benefit BW readers with current information about prevention of chronic diseases like dementia, diabetes, and promote the more recent knowledge of the advantages of fasting and the ways to extend longevity.  You, on the other hand,  are interfering with this with scare tactics of alleged 'dangers' and by putting down these information as 'quackery'.  So you are working AGAINST the objective, more than the topic, of the thread.

 

To call a 24 hour fast 'dangerous' is a true scare tactic.  To do a nearly 24 hour fast is as simple as ...  to eat once a day!  If you had read what I posted, you should have seen that the longevity expert David Sinclair eats only one meal a day,  so he fasts close to 24 hours every day.  And he should know what is healthy better than you and me!

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 6:29 AM, singalion said:

I have no clue why it is so difficult for Steve 5380 to accept that the majority of medical experts, doctors, and nutritionists would not recommend prolonged fasting periods.

 

I have no clue why it is so difficult for Singalion to accept that fasting and in particular intermittent fasting is becoming increasingly accepted and recommended by the medical community, and intermittent fasting is gaining much popularity. 

 

Not everyone recommends prolonged fasting periods because not everybody needs these.  And experts give warnings about prolonged fasting for some individuals like experts give warning about lifting weights for some individuals, and running for some individuals,  and excessive cold, excessive heat for some individuals,  etc. etc. etc...

[singalion]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I have no clue why it is so difficult for Singalion to accept that fasting and in particular intermittent fasting is becoming increasingly accepted and recommended by the medical community, and intermittent fasting is gaining much popularity. 

 

Not everyone recommends prolonged fasting periods because not everybody needs these.  And experts give warnings about prolonged fasting for some individuals like experts give warning about lifting weights for some individuals, and running for some individuals,  and excessive cold, excessive heat for some individuals,  etc. etc. etc...

 

The contrary advice of doctors and health centers against your own interpretation of intermittent fasting speaks volumes...

 

A 4 day fasting program is already not considered intermittent fasting any longer.

 

I already pointed to the general advice on intermittent fasting...

 

I never said that a one day 8 to 10 hour fasting per week might be nothing serious or has evenually health benefits.

 

But fasting for 4 - 5 days is dangerous .

 

All doctors advise against it.

 

And you should be more responsible to accept the general advice against such prolonged fasting.

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:23 PM, Steve5380 said:

diabetes

 

Look at on diabetes that prolonged fasting can be live threatening.

 

 

[singalion]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:23 PM, Steve5380 said:

I started this thread with the intention to benefit BW readers with current information about prevention of chronic diseases like dementia, diabetes, and promote the more recent knowledge of the advantages of fasting and the ways to extend longevity.  You, on the other hand,  are interfering with this with scare tactics of alleged 'dangers'

 

That means in your view pointing to risks and adverse results or even what doctors opine on your posts is off topic and only confirming your irresponsible advice if "on topic".

That is an interesting view point.

 

Means you only want conformist posts and such posts that simply confirm your bizarre theories or what you deduct from your personal lifestyle behaviour?

 

That is very CCP policy alike...

 

For someone like you Steve who preaches free speech and criticises censoring and limitations to free speech, I am totally baffled for the moment . 

 

If I had been that infamous Guest troll on BW I had posted on your hypocrisy but I will spare you (for this time).

 

[singalion]

Hey guys, please note this thread here is not really meant as a discussion.

 

Please only post anything that confirms the theories and recommendations of Steve5380!

 

Anything else is simply off topic according to the threadstarter.

 

Therefore, please only posts anything what agrees to Steve's lifestyle recommendations!!!

 

Warning:

No discussion allowed!

 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:35 AM, singalion said:

 

A 4 day fasting program is already not considered intermittent fasting any longer.

 

I already pointed to the general advice on intermittent fasting...

 

I never said that a one day 8 to 10 hour fasting per week might be nothing serious or has evenually health benefits.

 

But fasting for 4 - 5 days is dangerous .

 

All doctors advise against it.

 

And you should be more responsible to accept the general advice against such prolonged fasting.

 

 

 

 

 

You posted the following quotation: 

 

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

None of these longer periods of fasting lead to starvation. A healthy body does not experience any problems with these periods.  Like a hybrid car does not stall after running a mile on their battery.  72-hour  is nothing more than 3 days! 

 

And there are tens of things normal people do every day that "may be dangerous".  It even "may be dangerous" to eat any fast food because it could be contaminated with salmonella. People have died from that!

 

One curiosity:  have you ever even TRIED to fast?  If not,  you are speaking so much about something that is completely foreign to you.  How typical!   On the other hand, I fast every day, and I have done it for 4 days without any problem.

 

On 2/21/2022 at 8:37 AM, singalion said:

 

Look at on diabetes that prolonged fasting can be live threatening.

 

 

 

Look up what I have written about fasting.  I have written what is well known:  that in people with diabetes,  fasting can result in hypoglycemia,  a condition that can be common but dangerous if not reversed.   

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:45 AM, singalion said:

Hey guys, please note this thread here is not really meant as a discussion.

 

Please only post anything that confirms the theories and recommendations of Steve5380!

 

Anything else is simply off topic according to the threadstarter.

 

Therefore, please only posts anything what agrees to Steve's lifestyle recommendations!!!

 

Warning:

No discussion allowed!

 

 

 

Oh... does one detect spite in this post?

 

Of course this "no discussion allowed!" is pure spiteful lie,  result of lack of any reasonable response.

 

I mistakenly called a post by Singalion "off topic", instead of describing it as what it was, part of a continuous scare tactic misinformation with warnings of 'dangers' that are not such. 

 

I should have written "disinformation" instead of "off topic".  I sincerely apologize for my mistake   

[singalion]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:55 PM, Steve5380 said:

Longer periods without food, such as 24, 36, 48 and 72-hour fasting periods, are not necessarily better for you and may be dangerous. Going too long without eating might actually encourage your body to start storing more fat in response to starvation.

 

None of these longer periods of fasting lead to starvation. A healthy body does not experience any problems with these periods.  Like a hybrid car does not stall after running a mile on their battery.  72-hour  is nothing more than 3 days! 

 

You say this without any evidence to the contrary or substantiation.

 

The above is from Johns Hopkins Medical doctors.

 

Why should they post something that is false?

 

I would trust more the Johns Hopkins than your bizarre food/fasting recommendations.

 

Plus I already said that you departed what the nutritionists in general call "intermittent" fasting.

 

Prolonged fasting for 4 days is not longer what is considered intermittent fasting.

 

That is something what you made up yourself.

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:02 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Oh... does one detect spite in this post?

 

Of course this "no discussion allowed!" is pure spiteful lie,  result of lack of any reasonable response.

 

I mistakenly called a post by Singalion "off topic", instead of describing it as what it was, part of a continuous scare tactic misinformation with warnings of 'dangers' that are not such. 

 

I should have written "disinformation" instead of "off topic".  I sincerely apologize for my mistake   

 

Now, you say it is spite.

 

No,  you said:

 

On 2/21/2022 at 10:23 PM, Steve5380 said:

I started this thread with the intention to benefit BW readers with current information about prevention of chronic diseases like dementia, diabetes, and promote the more recent knowledge of the advantages of fasting and the ways to extend longevity.  You, on the other hand,  are interfering with this with scare tactics of alleged 'dangers'

 

Which means, you don't want anyone to post anything that interferes into your health discussion with "alleged " dangers.

Or in the worst contradicts to what you post.

 

99.9% what I posted here is advice from doctors.

Regretfully, they contradict your health recommendations on prevention of chronic diseases, diabetes or fasting.

 

They aren't even pointing to alleged dangers but real dangers and adverse risks.

 

If you don't want such posts, then you don't want any discussion but just confirming posts of what you write here.

Therefore, everything what you consider as contradicting your posts (even from specialists or doctors) is not wanted.

 

Make up your mind.

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:35 AM, singalion said:

 

The contrary advice of doctors and health centers against your own interpretation of intermittent fasting speaks volumes...

 

A 4 day fasting program is already not considered intermittent fasting any longer.

 

I already pointed to the general advice on intermittent fasting...

 

I never said that a one day 8 to 10 hour fasting per week might be nothing serious or has evenually health benefits.

 

But fasting for 4 - 5 days is dangerous .

 

All doctors advise against it.

 

And you should be more responsible to accept the general advice against such prolonged fasting.

 

 

 

 

 

No one considers that 4 day fasting is intermittent fasting, and I never said this.  Intermittent fasting is a steady, a continuous regime,  while a fast of 4 days or longer is an occasional event, done for some purpose, like in my case to try it out and see how well I can do it.  My intermittent fasting is done daily, simply by skipping breakfast and fast every day for 16 or more hours between dinner and the next day's lunch.  Other types of intermittent fasting are to eat regularly the 3 meals a day and then in between fast for 24 hours once or twice a week.  And they are other schemes, not involving any longer fasting than 24 hours.  

 

If you had read what has been posted in this thread, you should know this.  It is YOU who comes here mixing 4 day fasting with intermittent fasting.  And if someone who (safely) does intermittent fasting wants to try a longer time fasting, like 4 or 5 days,  there should not be much wrong with this.  I have fasted for 4 days, 92 hours, and I had no problems, I was never starved.  And I am not like the majority here a hot young guy, but I am a 78 year old senior.

 

You are also wrong in that "ALL doctors advise against it".  When I told to my son the doctor about my 4 day fast he said: "great dad,  how did you feel it?"   I am so glad to have REAL advice! 

. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:14 AM, singalion said:

 

Now, you say it is spite.

 

No,  you said:

 

 

Which means, you don't want anyone to post anything that interferes into your health discussion with "alleged " dangers.

Or in the worst contradicts to what you post.

 

99.9% what I posted here is advice from doctors.

Regretfully, they contradict your health recommendations on prevention of chronic diseases, diabetes or fasting.

 

They aren't even pointing to alleged dangers but real dangers and adverse risks.

 

If you don't want such posts, then you don't want any discussion but just confirming posts of what you write here.

Therefore, everything what you consider as contradicting your posts (even from specialists or doctors) is not wanted.

 

Make up your mind.

 

 

LOL!  You don't want to give up, don't you?  So typical!

 

This thread is not a medical journal or an official guide by John Hopkins to their patients. These doctors need to cover ALL their corners, if nothing else to avoid liabilities.

 

You may not have looked into the forum of Fitness and Health.  Maybe this is not what attracts you.  But if you look there, in the thread about muscle building, gym workout,  many members we have posted there much advice on how to do heavy squats, heavy bench presses,  heavy this and that.  NO ONE has poisoned this forum with alarmist warnings of the DANGERS of lifting weights!   IMAGINE if you drop a 45 pound plate on your foot!    It is understood that whoever of us goes to a gym to lift weights, we will be aware of how to do it correctly without much risk. 

 

The information I have posted here includes some comments on the precautions to take when fasting.  But yet, you fill these pages with warnings upon warnings of DANGERS of fasting, usually blown up by you to gain a one-upmanship over my position that risks are low, and can be avoided. 

 

This is what I mean by, if not off-topic, INFORMATION MISUSED for a completely negative purpose.   And by now, anyone who reads this topic has already seen your warnings a dozen times,  so THERE IS NO NEED ANYMORE FOR YOU TO CONTINUE WITH YOUR SCARING TACTIC.

[InBangkok]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:11 AM, Steve5380 said:

No one considers that 4 day fasting is intermittent fasting, and I never said this.  Intermittent fasting is a steady, a continuous regime,  while a fast of 4 days or longer is an occasional event, done for some purpose, like in my case to try it out and see how well I can do it.

From a poster who has spent so many posts promoting the benefits of 5 day fasting, we now are informed of the fact is that you really have no clue how it works. You merely did one experiment on you own old body. And even it could not cope because you had to give up after 4 days. And you expected young Asians to undertake this quack 5-day fasting!!!!

[Steve5380]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:29 PM, InBangkok said:

From a poster who has spent so many posts promoting the benefits of 5 day fasting, we now are informed of the fact is that you really have no clue how it works. You merely did one experiment on you own old body. And even it could not cope because you had to give up after 4 days. And you expected young Asians to undertake this quack 5-day fasting!!!!

 

So old and you haven't learned how to read!  I surely know how fasting works.  The ignorant here is YOU.

 

And how stupid of you to criticize me for having fasted for only 4 days instead of the 5 I was aiming for.  This coming from an older overweight guy who is horrified by the idea of fasting and who would never ever do it,  so you said.  I did stop after the 4 days because I had lost 5 pounds,  and I didn't want to lose more weight.  But I recovered this weight very fast, so next time I try I won't be concerned about the weight loss.  I will wait at least another month before attempting it again.

 

This post of yours is an example of how you come to this forum to shamelessly LIE.   And like every good liar, you call others like me liars,  which is indeed a LIE.  You may not be expert in many things, but at least you know to LIE.

 

I remember the first video I saw about water fasting, which called my attention and got me started in his topic:

 

 

 

Dr. Alan Goldhamer is a prestigious expert in fasting.  He created a TrueNorth Health Center where he treats patients with fasting.  Not just 5 day fasting but 40 day fasting!

 

The above video was seen over a million times.  If you open it on a separate window, you can read the comments , which are very positive, from people who have tried his fasting.  

 

Is it all 'quackery'?  If only one tenth of what he recommends is true,  then fasting is really an amazing procedure which should not be ignored.

 

Dear fellow gays who read this thread,  don't miss on watching this video.  And don't pay attention to the detractors here who do it only out of malevolence.  Make your own conclusions,  perhaps research the topic further.  

 

[singalion]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:11 AM, Steve5380 said:

No one considers that 4 day fasting is intermittent fasting, and I never said this.  Intermittent fasting is a steady, a continuous regime,  while a fast of 4 days or longer is an occasional event, done for some purpose, like in my case to try it out and see how well I can do it.  My intermittent fasting is done daily, simply by skipping breakfast and fast every day for 16 or more hours between dinner and the next day's lunch.  Other types of intermittent fasting are to eat regularly the 3 meals a day and then in between fast for 24 hours once or twice a week.  And they are other schemes, not involving any longer fasting than 24 hours.  

 

Your own perception of intermittent fasting is already out of the common definition of what constitutes intermittent fasting.

 

Sure you did, you have always used your prolonged fasting as a type of intermittent fasting. In all your past posts you always spoke of intermittent fasting.

 

What is intermittent fasting?

Commonly practised fasts include time-restricted fasting, alternate-day fasting and modified fasting.

Time-restricted fasting usually sees a prolonged nighttime fast. A very popular example of time-restricted fasting is the 16:8 method. Individuals will fast for 16 hours overnight, leaving an 8-hour window in the day for them to eat normally. Some choose to skip breakfast, consuming only lunch and dinner. Others choose to consume breakfast and lunch, giving dinner a miss.

Alternate-day fasting as the name implies, means alternating between days of fasting and days of eating. On fasting days, one does not eat or drink anything with calories. Only non-caloric drinks like water and non-sugar coffee or tea are allowed to be taken. On non-fasting days, you may eat whatever you want.

Modified fasting involves consuming very little on fasting days. One popular method is the 5:2 diet where the individual fasts for 2 days in a week and eat normally for the remaining 5 days. For the 5:2 fast, individuals will consume 20 - 25% of daily needs which works out to 500 - 600 kcal for females and males respectively. Sometimes the 4:3 method is adopted, depending on the individual’s preference.

 

 

There are recommendations not to overdo intermittent fasting of the first type for prolonged periods.

 

=>

Your (Steve's) concept of 4 - 5 days nonstop  fasting (only consuming water) does not any longer fall into the category of intermittent fasting.

 

=>

Then please Steve5380 stay within the common definitions and don't interchange your type of excessive fasting with that what is commonly called "intermittent" fasting.

 

 

The same info on intermittent fasting says this also:

 

Some reported side effects include persistent hunger, cold, irritability, low energy, distraction and lower work performance. Other individuals who experience more serious symptoms like hair loss, irregular or missed periods, insomnia, anxiety or depression should cease and avoid it. If you do experience any of these side effects, it could be a sign to quit the intermittent fasting plan.

Intermittent fasting is not suitable for everyone,

No diet works for everyone, therefore it is strongly advised that you seek medical advice before intermittent fasting if you are not in the best of health or you experience any of the aforementioned side effects.

 

 

[singalion]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:36 AM, Steve5380 said:

NO ONE has poisoned this forum with alarmist warnings of the DANGERS of lifting weights!   IMAGINE if you drop a 45 pound plate on your foot!    It is understood that whoever of us goes to a gym to lift weights, we will be aware of how to do it correctly without much risk. 

 

Stop being childish and totally absurd.

 

Jogging can result in a tree falling onto you. Do you see any warnings not to jog?

 

Nobody posted any warning or danger to accidentally drink from the water glass of your grandfather also!

 

 

[singalion]

 

Who is Dr. Alan Goldhamer?

Dr. Alan Goldhamer is a plant-based doctor, a visionary, and the founder of TrueNorth Health Center, a state-of-the-art facility that provides medical and chiropractic services, physiotherapy, counseling, massage, and bodywork. He has consulted hundreds of thousands of patients and has built a robust reputation for himself.

He completed his chiropractic education from the Western States Chiropractic College in Portland, Oregon, after which Dr. Alan went to Australia and became a licensed osteopathic physician.

 

 

Wonder why a US person needs to go to Australia to get a Dr....

 

Interesting when Chiropractors start becoming nutritional experts...

[singalion]

All you need to know about water fasting

 

Although there are potential health benefits to fasting, there are considerable risks if a fast is carried out for too long, or by someone whose health or age puts them at risk of damage to their body.

 

If someone has health concerns, or is planning to fast for longer than 24 hours, they should seek the advice of a medical professional and consider undertaking a fast under supervision.

 

Water fasting will not be safe for everyone, and should not be undertaken by older adults, those under 18, or those who are underweight.

[singalion]

 

Considering a Water Fast? Here’s Everything You Should Know

January 3, 2022

 

Medically reviewed by Adrienne Seitz, MS, RD, LDN

 

Although water fasting yields several potential benefits, it also isn’t generally recommended and does come with some risks.

 

Before you start any program involving prolonged fasts, make sure to consult your doctor.

 

Generally, extended fasts without medical supervision are not recommended — especially if you have any preexisting conditions.

Additionally, you probably shouldn’t water fast for a long period more than once or twice per month. Water fasting too often can deprive your body of vital nutrients that it can only get from food.

 

Again, outside of having a medical procedure, a water fast typically won’t be recommended for health reasons.

 

This can cause severe, debilitating symptoms like fatigue, confusion, seizures, heart failure, and even death in some cases.

Do not attempt this without the involvement of a medical professional.

 

I did not list all the risks. The article listed 15 cons.

 

 

Hence: AYOR

 

[Steve5380]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:13 AM, singalion said:

 

Your own perception of intermittent fasting is already out of the common definition of what constitutes intermittent fasting.

 

Sure you did, you have always used your prolonged fasting as a type of intermittent fasting. In all your past posts you always spoke of intermittent fasting.

 

What is intermittent fasting?

Commonly practised fasts include time-restricted fasting, alternate-day fasting and modified fasting.

Time-restricted fasting usually sees a prolonged nighttime fast. A very popular example of time-restricted fasting is the 16:8 method. Individuals will fast for 16 hours overnight, leaving an 8-hour window in the day for them to eat normally. Some choose to skip breakfast, consuming only lunch and dinner. Others choose to consume breakfast and lunch, giving dinner a miss.

Alternate-day fasting as the name implies, means alternating between days of fasting and days of eating. On fasting days, one does not eat or drink anything with calories. Only non-caloric drinks like water and non-sugar coffee or tea are allowed to be taken. On non-fasting days, you may eat whatever you want.

Modified fasting involves consuming very little on fasting days. One popular method is the 5:2 diet where the individual fasts for 2 days in a week and eat normally for the remaining 5 days. For the 5:2 fast, individuals will consume 20 - 25% of daily needs which works out to 500 - 600 kcal for females and males respectively. Sometimes the 4:3 method is adopted, depending on the individual’s preference.

 

 

There are recommendations not to overdo intermittent fasting of the first type for prolonged periods.

 

=>

Your (Steve's) concept of 4 - 5 days nonstop  fasting (only consuming water) does not any longer fall into the category of intermittent fasting.

 

=>

Then please Steve5380 stay within the common definitions and don't interchange your type of excessive fasting with that what is commonly called "intermittent" fasting.

 

 

The same info on intermittent fasting says this also:

 

Some reported side effects include persistent hunger, cold, irritability, low energy, distraction and lower work performance. Other individuals who experience more serious symptoms like hair loss, irregular or missed periods, insomnia, anxiety or depression should cease and avoid it. If you do experience any of these side effects, it could be a sign to quit the intermittent fasting plan.

Intermittent fasting is not suitable for everyone,

No diet works for everyone, therefore it is strongly advised that you seek medical advice before intermittent fasting if you are not in the best of health or you experience any of the aforementioned side effects.

 

 

 

I challenge you to quote from anywhere in this thread an instance where I wrote that a 4 day fast is intermittent fasting.  Unless you can do this,  I will have no other choice but to call you what the other tenor is,  a SHAMELESS LIAR. 

 

Because in this very post of yours you quoted me as writing:  

 

On 2/21/2022 at 1:11 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

No one considers that 4 day fasting is intermittent fasting, and I never said this.  Intermittent fasting is a steady, a continuous regime,  while a fast of 4 days or longer is an occasional event, done for some purpose, like in my case to try it out and see how well I can do it.  My intermittent fasting is done daily, simply by skipping breakfast and fast every day for 16 or more hours between dinner and the next day's lunch.  Other types of intermittent fasting are to eat regularly the 3 meals a day and then in between fast for 24 hours once or twice a week.  And they are other schemes, not involving any longer fasting than 24 hours.  

 

 

So here  is PRECISELY where is contradicted your criticism that I am wrong! This criticism is a SHAMEFUL LIE.  Read what I have written, and realize that I AM RIGHT, by the definitions you posted.  I have always described intermittent fasting in the correct way.  I have further noted that in order to do it, it can be as simple as skipping breakfast and so have a 16 hour fast between a dinner and next day's lunch.

 

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU COME UP WITH SO MANY FALSITIES!  

 

Is it that you have such a strong compulsion to win an argument?   The purpose of this thread is not to win arguments, but to give helpful information to our fellow gay readers of BW.   In this, you and the other guy are failing miserably, because your only purpose is to (falsely) prove me wrong!

 

I don't mind making mistakes, being wrong, losing arguments,  I happily accept these.  But my mistakes should be REAL, not invented by malevolent people.  

[Steve5380]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:49 AM, singalion said:

 

Who is Dr. Alan Goldhamer?

Dr. Alan Goldhamer is a plant-based doctor, a visionary, and the founder of TrueNorth Health Center, a state-of-the-art facility that provides medical and chiropractic services, physiotherapy, counseling, massage, and bodywork. He has consulted hundreds of thousands of patients and has built a robust reputation for himself.

He completed his chiropractic education from the Western States Chiropractic College in Portland, Oregon, after which Dr. Alan went to Australia and became a licensed osteopathic physician.

 

 

Wonder why a US person needs to go to Australia to get a Dr....

 

Interesting when Chiropractors start becoming nutritional experts...

 

It is interesting how you keep throwing dirt on good honest competent people because you have a compulsion to win a stupid argument,  an argument you and InBangkok have started in this thread for the purpose of smear it and contradict the information here.  

 

It is doubtful that Dr. Alan Goldhamer will be harmed or even will know what miserable malevolent detractors write here about him.  So I don't worry too much about your misinformation, as long as innocent gays reading this thread recognize your malevolence and don't fall for your misinformation.

 

About Dr. Goldhamer,  here is an article of his that was published in a prestigious site for scientific papers,  a site who will screen well for "quackery" :

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684131/

 

 

Alan Goldhamer, dc: Water Fasting—The Clinical Effectiveness of Rebooting Your Body

Craig Gustafson

Copyright and License information Disclaimer

 

 

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

 

 

Alan Goldhamer, dc, is the founder and education director of TrueNorth Health Center in Santa Rosa, California. Under his guidance, the center has supervised fasts for thousands of patients and grown into one of the premier training facilities for doctors wishing to gain certification in the supervision of therapeutic fasting.

Dr Goldhamer is on the faculty at Bastyr University in Seattle, Washington, where he teaches a course on clinical fasting. He is the primary investigator in 2 published, landmark studies that demonstrate the benefits of water-only fasting, and he is the author of The Health Promoting Cookbook and coauthor of The Pleasure Trap: Mastering The Hidden Force That Undermines Health and Happiness.

 

IMCJ: Many people out there promote their own ideas for fasting. Describe your approach to fasting.

Dr Goldhamer: Fasting, by definition, is the complete absence of all substances except water in an environment of complete rest. So the clinical fasting or the therapeutic fasting that we do by definition is complete absence of all substances except pure, distilled water in an environment of rest. Our program supports fasts from 5 to 40 days in length.

IMCJ: When would you consider fasting to be medically indicated?

Dr Goldhamer: The process is really quite simple. Generally, patients coming to the TrueNorth Health Center, most often, are under a referral from physicians—clinicians refer their patients specifically for medically supervised, water-only fasting. Fifty percent of our patients come from out of state. Fifteen percent are foreign. We see about 1000 new people a year.

Those people present with a variety of situations. Typically, the conditions that we treat are the ones that are determined to be the most responsive to fasting: the diseases of dietary excess. These conditions are caused by excess consumption of calories, particularly animal fat and protein and/or refined carbohydrates. So we are talking about high blood pressure, diabetes, and autoimmune diseases. These make up the majority of these people we treat.

The way that it works is the patients go online and complete our registration forms, which give us a detailed medical history. That is reviewed by me. The patients call for a free consult. We determine whether or not, based on history and a review of laboratory results, they are a likely candidate for a stay at the TrueNorth Health Center, whether it be for water fasting, modified fasting in the form of juices, or a healthy eating program.

Some patients, about 15%, are also coming into the center for chronic musculoskeletal problems. They may or may not be a candidate for fasting, but we have 5 chiropractors, a naturopath, a clinical psychologist, and 3 medical doctors on the staff. So there are a variety of skills and services available from a management standpoint.

Once they have been screened, every patient at the TrueNorth Health Center is seen by one of the medical doctors on staff for evaluation and medical management issues: dealing with getting rid of their drugs and other medical management issues.

When they are at the Center, they are seen twice a day by one of the staff doctors. Most of the time, that is going to be our doctors of chiropractic who do morning and evening rounds, where vitals are collected, questions are answered, and plans for the next day are formulated. They are also interacting with our interns. We have an active internship program, where about 30 physicians a year train with us in rotations that range from 1 month to 1 year.

Fasting patients are put through an intensive educational program. They are seeing a program in the morning at 10:00 am and in the afternoon at 2:00 pm. These include topics like exercise, meditation, yoga, cooking classes, and lectures with the staff doctors. In addition to these 2 live programs a day, there is an extensive audio-educational program on DVDs that are watched according to the patient’s own taste and interest.

Patients stay with us for a variety of times. Again, fasting ranges from 5 to 40 days. Every patient who fasts goes through a refeeding, which means that they have a period at least half the length of the fast for clinical refeeding. So a person who fasts for 3 weeks will typically be with us at least a month.

IMCJ: How is the length of the fast determined?

Dr Goldhamer: Fasting itself is diagnostic, as well as therapeutic, so careful clinical monitoring, observing the laboratory values, as well as the clinical values, guide us in advising a patient on duration.

For example, if a person has high blood pressure and they come in at 240 over 140 on medication, our goal is to get them stable, off all medications, as close to 90 over 60 as possible. So we are going to fast until their blood pressure normalizes.

However, we have to also recognize that people have limitations. So we are monitoring their electrolyte levels, their clinical presentation, and so forth to ensure that we do not transition from the fasting state into the starvation state.

Fasting is what happens when you have labile reserves that you are mobilizing and utilizing. If you exceed those reserves, you enter a process called starvation. If you continue starvation, then the client would die, and that would be really bad for outcome data, so we try not to do that.

I have to say that in 10 000 consecutive patients, everybody who has walked in for fasting has been able to walk out. We have no mortality associated with fasting to date, and as our safety data indicates, this is a safe and effective process when it is done according to protocol.

IMCJ: During a fast, what are the things that you are watching for? What are some of the adverse effects that could happen during a fast that you need to be careful of?

Dr Goldhamer: Well, you would prefer not to have people die. So number 1 on the list is avoiding mortality. Patients are going to have all kinds of adverse symptoms. They are going to experience a foul taste in the mouth. They are going to get low back pain in early phases of fasting because of referral activity from changes in the kidneys. They are often going to get skin rashes, discharges from mucous membranes, headaches, irritability, nausea, and vomiting. Orthostatic hypertension is a common issue, so we have to train patients to move slowly as they get up so they do not experience orthostatic events.

Many times, people go through the classic healing crisis where chronic problems become acute, and it can become quite distressing. So our job is differentiating an acute response generated by the body in its attempt to get well from a problem. These often look, on the surface, very much the same. The way we do that is with twice-daily evaluations; laboratory monitoring, including blood and urine; noninvasive diagnostic testing, including electrocardiographs, barometry, etc; and when necessary, more invasive diagnostic testing in terms of ultrasound, etc.

We do standard clinical monitoring, but carefully, and then use the body’s response to guide the duration and intensity of treatment. So the principals are the same as managing any condition. The difference is that we have a lot more data points because the patients are living in our facility. They are under our direct and continuous control 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And so we have the ability to control everything in their environment from their rest to their diet—even the input and stress that they are exposed to, to a large extent.

That control gives us the opportunity to manipulate even the subtle effects, in terms of their hydration and other factors, and it is what allows us to ensure a safe experience. The body does all the healing, which is what generates the effects of the experience.

In addition, we have the ability to introduce any appropriate conservative therapies, in terms of chiropractic manipulation, physical therapy, body use instruction, etc, in an environment with intense education. We call it a residential health education program. Its primary focus is teaching people what they are going to need to do when they go home, so they can get a good result and make us look good.

We do require a 50-year follow-up. We ask our patients to maintain optimum health for 50 years when they depart this facility, and then, after that, they can do whatever they want.

Interestingly enough, I am just getting my first 30-year follow-ups. I just saw some of the first patients I saw 30 years ago. This one gentleman, in particular, is 85 now. He was 55 when I first worked with him, and he said the only problem he has had is that he has outlived all of his friends and, actually, one of his kids.

IMCJ: What else are you seeing from these people?

Dr Goldhamer: If you treat high blood pressure medically, they tell you, “You must take these drugs the rest of your life.” If you have diabetes, they’ll tell you, “You’ll be on these medications the rest of your life.” If you have autoimmune disease, like lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis, ankylosing spondylitis, psoriasis, or eczema, you will be told, “You must be on medications the rest of your life,” because medicine guarantees you will never recover. They promise you, if you follow their advice explicitly, you will be sick the rest of your life.

This approach offers people an option to make lifestyle changes, eliminate the cause of the problem, and stabilize their conditions, to the point where the medication is no longer needed. So it is a very different approach to managing these diseases of dietary excess—the diseases of kings, if you will—than conventional medicine, which is more about the suppression of the symptoms associated with the disease, rather than removing the underlying mechanisms by which they are caused.

IMCJ: You have said that fasting really does not cure anything. Can you expound that?

Dr Goldhamer: I believe that nothing really cures anything. The fact is you are managing literally everything and trying to create a whole new static balance where the body can try to heal itself. So I do not think fasting is a cure.

Fasting is just a way to create an environment that gives the body a selective advantage at mobilizing and eliminating the accumulated intermediary products of metabolism, the toxic byproducts that can be associated with suppression of the body’s ability to heal itself. So you are just removing, or giving the body a chance to remove, impediments to healing and it does it rapidly.

The unique thing about this ancient practice of fasting is that it gives the body a chance to rapidly mobilize and eliminate these accumulated intermediary products and toxic products. So you see clinical changes very quickly. Things that might take weeks or months with careful feeding can happen within days or weeks with fasting.

IMCJ: When do you caution against fasting?

Dr Goldhamer: Fasting is not for every patient. Not every patient has the adaptive capacities to go through the rigors of fasting. Some patients require careful replenishment prior to fasting. In other words, you do not want to take a patient who has depletion issues into fasting because their adaptive capacities to hold up to fasting are limited. So we might go through careful refeeding and replenishment prior to fasting for patients who have depletion issues.

IMCJ: Traditionally, fasting has often been connected with a spiritual journey. Is there a spiritual aspect to fasting at TrueNorth?

Dr Goldhamer: Every major religion has a tradition of fasting, and there is a reason. It is because fasting changes the way people think and feel about themselves and the world around them.

There is a book written by a patient of mine. It is called, Fasting: An Exceptional Human Experience, by Randi Fredricks, phd. Dr Fredricks reviews in that book all of the different religious traditions and where they come from. We recognize that we are not a spiritually directed facility. In other words, we have doctors with all kinds of different beliefs. We are not the place to teach people how to get into heaven or what flavor of religion to believe. We certainly respect and acknowledge the fact that fasting tends to help people tap into an inner self. That is what I would consider as a positive side effect of fasting. Our approach is really a clinical approach, which is creating an environment where the body can do what it does best, and that is heal itself.

IMCJ: You also offer different programs such as juices and nutrition training. How do those interact with your fasting program?

Dr Goldhamer: Well, every patient who undergoes a period of stay at the Center—say, for example, they do a water fast—will then terminate that fast, usually on juices, and then be introduced to whole, natural foods. There is a period of one-half the length of the fast, minimum, of medically supervised refeeding that happens at the Center. So everybody who goes through fasting also goes through a period of replenishment.

Some people are not candidates for water-only fasting. It would be too vigorous, or they may have depletion issues. They may do a modified fasting program, or they may go on a healthy eating program. The fact is, just putting people on a plant-based, whole-foods, sugar-oil-salt-free diet is sufficient to induce intense healing response. It is just not quite as vigorous or as efficient as water-only fasting.

Water-only fasting introduces a unique biological adaptation that is rather unique. But the rapid healing response is also quite vigorous, which is why fasting can sometimes be an intense and miserable experience. The good news is, if patients have dramatically good results, they forgive us for that.

IMCJ: When you are refeeding people, you source the food from your own facility, correct?

Dr Goldhamer: We have a very fortunate situation, being in California. We have a 2-acre organic farm. We also have contracts with local growers that grow specifically for us. We have 2 organic suppliers that come from the San Francisco markets, which supply most of the country with organic produce. And we have an abundance of excellent-quality fruits and vegetables available all year long. So it is a wonderful place to be doing a healthy eating program, just because of the fact that so much is grown right here.

We also have a food service business, TrueNorth Kitchen, where local people can obtain food. This improves local compliance of our patients who happen to live in close proximity to the Center. We have a wonderful chef, Ramses Bravo, who is the author of a cookbook, Bravo!. He does a great job, both in terms of health education as well as food preparation, and has a great staff. It is a great fringe benefit for the 39 people who work for TrueNorth Health Center, the 11 clinicians and 28 general staff, because they are able to get their meals at TrueNorth Health, and that tends to be seen as a very positive benefit of working here.

IMCJ: Do you advocate putting a little fast into daily or weekly life? Is there some benefit to doing that?

Dr Goldhamer: As you know, Valter Longo, phd, looked at the effect of fasting, first in rats and later in people with cancer. He noted that, when rats are treated with conventional therapy, at a certain point, all the rats died.

But, if you fast the rats while introducing the therapy, the rats survived because there apparently is something in fasting that induces a protective response, making healthy cells more protected and cancer cells more vulnerable. He has done that in rats; he has done it in humans.

We are hoping that the safety study that we are about to publish will give him the leverage to be able to get authorization to do long-term fasting in a study. At this point, he has done very short-term fasting. And so, hopefully, he’ll see that there’s a compounding effect of fasting.

Short-term fasting can have a great benefit, but long-term fasting can have a geometric effect. So the farther you go into fasting, within the person’s capacities and reserves, the more profound the effect appears to be.

IMCJ: For somebody who is generally healthy, is there a benefit to incorporating some sort of fasting regularly into their lifestyle?

Dr Goldhamer: Everybody incorporates fasting every day. We go to bed after eating dinner. We wake up and break our fast with something called breakfast. And so there is some suggestion that—for patients who are looking, for example, for weight control—they can use intermittent fasting. I think it would be better termed intermittent feeding.

By limiting the window of time that people are feeding during the day—not eating until 10:00 am or noon, and limiting the consumption after 5:00 pm or 5:30 pm—you can also significantly narrow caloric consumption. And, as a consequence, that reduction of dietary excess is associated with a healing response. So I think the intermittent feeding may have benefit as a weight control technique.

The idea of fasting 1 day a week, arbitrarily, is a bit of a misnomer because the main biological and therapeutic benefits of fasting actually take place progressively over time. It is not the first day or two that are the most efficient at detoxification: It is the last day or two.

The most biologically expensive part of fasting is actually the early part of the fast, as the body is adapting. So, yes, it is possible that intermittent fasting may have some utility in an individual clinical case, but we do not want to confuse it with the clinical benefits of fasting that we are seeing with long-term fasting because the changes that take place accumulate progressively as you get farther into the fast.

So to arbitrarily say, “I am going to fast 1 day a week” and think that I am getting proportional clinical benefits to those of a longer fast done once or twice a year would turn out to be a mistake—although the research we are doing will hopefully elucidate further exactly what is going on.

Anything that prevents overeating, however, is going to allow the reversal of the disease of excess. Intermittent feeding may be a very powerful clinical tool to help modulate feeding and eliminate dietary excess. But it is not going to likely be inducing the same mechanism tree that we are seeing with long-term fasting. I think the two put together may turn out to be dramatically more effective than just long-term, intermittent feeding. Intermittent feeding may very well be useful, in terms of maintenance and support and reversal of disease of excess over time. But I do not think it is going to be inducing the same mechanisms that you see in water-only fasting. It is just another clinical tool to help doctors get people well and help keep them that way.

The problem with fasting, as I see it, and the reason you see so many people pursuing modified fasting and intermittent fasting lies in the need for a controlled environment for patients, often an inpatient environment.

It is problematic for people to have to take a break, rest, and give the body a chance to do the type of intense healing it does with water fasting. So there are structural limitations to being able to do this clinically. Everyone wants something that they can do on an outpatient basis that is quick, simple, easy, pleasant, but still going to have the profound effects.

 

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etc. etc.  

[Steve5380]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:45 AM, Nightingale said:

 

 

Thank you for your good intentions in posting this video.

 

"Social Integration"  being the strongest predictor of longevity?   More than diet, exercise, lack of tobacco and alcohol, etc. ?   Why do I think that the purpose of this video is to promote an agenda...?

 

I have been living in solitude for more than 3 years since my bf passed away.  I lived in solitude during large periods of my teenage years and early adulthood.  But I never felt any harmful effect in solitude.  Low social integration may deprive of some enjoyment, but it also protect from much frustration and bad feelings.

 

If "social integration" were such a strong factor,  why the lack of it in people living in the country,  in monks who cultivate solitude, does not make them die young?  

 

If "social integration" were such a strong factor, why people who retire to old-folks homes and are surrounded by peers and are pushed into tons of social activities, don't live much longer than the rest of the population?  Aren't old-folks places something dreadful where all old people can do is to wait for death to take them away?

 

 We gays who live alone, enjoying the freedom and lack of stress of not being forced into "social integration"  should question the surprising premises of this video.  Instead, we should follow a healthy diet,  do plenty of exercising especially to strengthen the legs,  have proper medical insurance and undergo periodic tests,  and do as much or as little "social integration" as we feel comfortable with.

[G_M]

Get back to the topic and leave your debates in the "3 Tenors" thread!

[Steve5380]

Hi!  I am back at my thread "for gays who will seniors one day".   As usual, one day at the time. 

 

A new video came out by famous longevity expert David Sinclair  "The Science of Looking Younger, Longer"  What more can we wish?   Young and old, we all need this!  No?

 

Well,  in this long video there is nothing revolutionary.  But it is still interesting to listen to it and perceive some science behind this,  although if we follow a healthy lifestyle much of this is known already.  I like his position that there is nothing wrong with trying to look younger,  and nothing wrong with Botox.  

 

I learned about the importance of having a thick skin  (physically, not only emotionally),  and his "skin pinch test".  I did this test on skin in several parts of the body, not only my hand,  and I could not get the result that fits a nearly 79y.o. skin. My skin takes less than 10 seconds to return to normal.  I am not a snake that can shed skin periodically.  So it must be that old.  This tells me that a healthy lifestyle is also good for the skin.  I also learned about foot ulcers... ugh, what an ugly thing,  this should scare the hell in us about avoiding diabetes as much as we can.  (maybe through metabolic flexibility, high insulin sensitivity promoted by fasting? )  Take the time to watch the video, and appreciate the information!

 

 

 

[Guest No Offense.]

On 3/9/2022 at 5:13 AM, Steve5380 said:

A new video came out by famous longevity expert David Sinclair  "The Science of Looking Younger, Longer"  What more can we wish?   Young and old, we all need this!  No?

 

I think you should give up trying.  Dr Sinclair's video is not directed for people your age. 

[Steve5380]

On 3/8/2022 at 11:51 PM, Guest No Offense. said:

I think you should give up trying.  Dr Sinclair's video is not directed for people your age. 

 

No Offense, none at all.

 

I think you should give up trying. There are many different people my age.  Let me decide what is directed for me.

 

Wait until you are my age to know  

[Guest Freaked]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:29 PM, Steve5380 said:

Wait until you are my age to know  

It sure is scary.  Now, I have better glue my eyes to all of Dr David Sinclair's videos while still young.   It is not too late right?