Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[sgmaven]

Think of it this way, the reason why NATO exists is to secure Western Europe against the Warsaw Pact. After the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was no more Warsaw Pact, so there was not much reason for the existence of NATO, especially if they had managed to get Russia on good terms. Do remember that Russia was too busy trying to fix its economy then. Instead, NATO chose to treat Russia as the "other" and to gather other countries against it, even when Russia did not have an aggressive stance then. How would you have reacted to it, as a Russian?

 

To me, it is a big failure of NATO, for they could have shifted much of the military threats out of Europe. For all you know, they probably would then have directed their full attention at "tackling" the emerging China...

[sgmaven]

Note that I am not condoning what Russia is doing in the Ukraine. In fact, I am flatly against the war. Just that I think that it is not just Russia who has to carry the blame for this current situation.

[Steve5380]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:45 AM, sgmaven said:

I beg to differ, Russia, at the collapse of the Soviet Union, wasn't trying to gain back its "lost territory" or any grandeur of empire. However, the increasing "scope" and membership of NATO only gave rise to a Russia, who needed to make sure it can stand up against an entire "continent" committed to "controlling" Russia. If you ask me to "see it from the European perspective", then I will ask you to "see it from the Russian perspective".

 

Many European States, having been great powers at some stage in history, like to look back on the glory days. It is not just Russia. Just look at the likes of the UK and France, who try to "project power" beyond what they are really capable of militarily. This is the source of the undeniable national pride. When much of the continent of Europe then seems intent on uniting to counter an already weakened Russia, I am sure that it did not sit well will the Russians.

 

And yet, NATO continued to egg other on.

 

Meanwhile, in Russia, the failure of transformation into a truly free economy, but instead into an economy controlled by a select group of oligarchs caused some distress. What better leaf out of the playbook, than to distract the discontented masses with an external enemy?

 

You mentioned Hungary in 1956 or Poland in the 1980s. Well, that was wit the Soviet system still functioning as per normal, and the Cold War still raging. The US would definitely not have risked intervention in Warsaw Pact countries, since that would escalate into all out war between the US and the USSR. Quite like how the West is refusing to set up a no-fly-zone above the Ukraine currently.

 

Then you mention that the US does not invade UK or France, just because someone not so palatable gets elected. It does not mean that they do not try to influence the elections before that happens. Using force to depose of those governments would not get very much support within the US too. I doubt any US President would be able to get both chambers to support that kind of war.

 

As for non-alignment, you first have to look at Russia post-Soviet Union. While they did try to continue to unify what used to be the Soviet Union into the Commonwealth of Independent States, it did not invade those countries when most of them decided not to get involved with the CIS. Russia's current aggressive stance is very much a result of the NATO versus Russia play in the European theatre by the West. They really have been provoked over and over.

 

While I do not agree with the tactics that Putin is using, especially with the Annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the subsequent funding of separatists in Eastern Ukraine, culminating in this invasion. I don't think that Russia is the only one to blame for this catastrophe.

 

You seem to have a weakness for dramatic plot speculations.  Did you get a degree in International Intrigue? 

 

I am not so expert in drama, I simply think that people are more attracted to the freedoms and better standard of living in the democratic countries in the West than in the Kremlin controlled authoritarian regime.

 

It is undeniable that the NATO alliance defends human rights,  that is, freedoms in the countries that participate.

[singalion]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

You seem to have a weakness for dramatic plot speculations.  Did you get a degree in International Intrigue? 

 

I am not so expert in drama, I simply think that people are more attracted to the freedoms and better standard of living in the democratic countries in the West than in the Kremlin controlled authoritarian regime.

 

It is undeniable that the NATO alliance defends human rights,  that is, freedoms in the countries that participate.

 

You discourage people that make serious efforts in a civil discussion . 

 

I m not sure what your aim is in putting down sgmaven or his post. 

 

I don't see any drama but an elaborated effort to respond intellectually to your earlier post. 

 

Could you review your online behaviour or attitude on BW?

 

[singalion]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

It is undeniable that the NATO alliance defends human rights,  that is, freedoms in the countries that participate.

 

No! NATO is a military organisation. It's aim is to protect the Member states from any attack. 

The freedom of the member countries refers to the fact of not being conquered by a third country and losing sovereignty. 

 

However membership requires certain democratic and political standards. 

 

[Kenichi]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:46 PM, sgmaven said:

Think of it this way, the reason why NATO exists is to secure Western Europe against the Warsaw Pact. After the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was no more Warsaw Pact, so there was not much reason for the existence of NATO, especially if they had managed to get Russia on good terms. Do remember that Russia was too busy trying to fix its economy then. Instead, NATO chose to treat Russia as the "other" and to gather other countries against it, even when Russia did not have an aggressive stance then. How would you have reacted to it, as a Russian?

 

To me, it is a big failure of NATO, for they could have shifted much of the military threats out of Europe. For all you know, they probably would then have directed their full attention at "tackling" the emerging China...

As a Russian (that is, if I were a Russian), I would not have invaded another country. Could it be that only Mr Putin feels that his or his country's existence is threatened. Perhaps he knows that the average Russian would not support the invasion of another country just because of NATO's expansion, that he had to invent falsehoods (e.g. genocide of Russian-speaking people in Ukraine) to justify the attack.

[sgmaven]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

You seem to have a weakness for dramatic plot speculations.  Did you get a degree in International Intrigue? 

 

I am not so expert in drama, I simply think that people are more attracted to the freedoms and better standard of living in the democratic countries in the West than in the Kremlin controlled authoritarian regime.

 

It is undeniable that the NATO alliance defends human rights,  that is, freedoms in the countries that participate.

I initially thought that people were unfairly attacking you with comments, but seeing your inherent disrespect for others, I do understand why they attack you.

 

Back to the topic, the NATO alliance only defends human rights when it suits them, and when they get something out of it. If I recall correctly, you yourself said that no country acts completely out of goodwill and altruism.

[sgmaven]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:21 PM, Kenichi said:

As a Russian (that is, if I were a Russian), I would not have invaded another country. Could it be that only Mr Putin feels that his or his country's existence is threatened. Perhaps he knows that the average Russian would not support the invasion of another country just because of NATO's expansion, that he had to invent falsehoods (e.g. genocide of Russian-speaking people in Ukraine) to justify the attack.

You missed the point of my posts. I am not absolving Russia for any of their actions in invading the Ukraine. However, I have to point out that NATO has some share (not necessarily equal share) of the blame for this current situation we find ourselves in.

[Kenichi]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:37 PM, sgmaven said:

You missed the point of my posts. I am not absolving Russia for any of their actions in invading the Ukraine. However, I have to point out that NATO has some share (not necessarily equal share) of the blame for this current situation we find ourselves in.

I know you are not absolving Russia for any of their actions. You made that quite clear in earlier posts. But maybe you also missed the point of my post. I'm saying that if Putin's view of NATO expansion as threatening to Russia is not shared by the general Russian population, why does NATO need to bear any responsibility for this current situation which is Putin's making.

[sgmaven]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:59 AM, Kenichi said:

I know you are not absolving Russia for any of their actions. You made that quite clear in earlier posts. But maybe you also missed the point of my post. I'm saying that if Putin's view of NATO expansion as threatening to Russia is not shared by the general Russian population, why does NATO need to bear any responsibility for this current situation which is Putin's making.

How do you know that the general Russian does not see NATO's expansion as a threat? In fact, many Russians want their government to bring back the "glorious days of the past". That could be seen as standing up to NATO encroachment/enlargement.

[Steve5380]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:35 AM, sgmaven said:

I initially thought that people were unfairly attacking you with comments, but seeing your inherent disrespect for others, I do understand why they attack you.

 

Back to the topic, the NATO alliance only defends human rights when it suits them, and when they get something out of it. If I recall correctly, you yourself said that no country acts completely out of goodwill and altruism.

 

I sincerely regret that you felt disrespected when I wrote: "You seem to have a weakness for dramatic plot speculations.  Did you get a degree in International Intrigue?"  There was no bad intention, if someone writes this to me,  I would take it with humor and chuckle. 

 

Participating in a forum, don't miss the opportunity to acquire a thick skin.  There is nothing wrong with this.  It will keep you from feeling victimized for little things that have no power to victimize you.  Don't to those who tell you that you should feel "put down", they may have an agenda against the one who wrote to you.  By acquiring a thicker skin and not feeling disrespected, you will also avoid showing weakness in complaining.  An anonymous poster with whom you have no acquaintance cannot disrespect you when you have a strong self esteem.   Another thing is to be crudely insulted.  And even so,  a thick skin protects you from that.

 

You are right that frequently I am unfairly attacked.  But you don't see me complaining because I value and respect myself and rest importance to the "unfairly".  If I am fairly attacked,  then I pay attention to the cause of the attack and change what I should change, but this is not often.  My intention is not to cause harm,  I am a peaceful, good natured guy. 

 

Back to the topic, NATO has in its charter to accept as members nations that have a certain standard for freedoms and human rights.  Or at least the appearance of this.  You are right that democratic nations that should know better have violated human rights mostly in other nations.  This can depends on what government is elected,  and America had its cases of bad administrations that did evil things. 

.  

Edited March 22, 2022 by Steve5380

[Guest Look at the Picture]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:18 PM, Steve5380 said:

I am a peaceful, good natured guy. 

 

Back to the topic, NATO has in its charter to accept as members nations that have a certain standard for freedoms and human rights.  Or at least the appearance of this.   

You are a joke.  

 

Back to the topic.  Every country is different, just like every family is different.  Just  because someone has a different way of disciplining their own child, doesn't mean you are right in teaching your own child.  China is like Gay people,  America is like Christian evangelist. NATO is like a mega Church.   As a Gay guy, it can be very frustrating.  You get the picture.  

[Steve5380]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:35 PM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Look back through Steve5380s responses and it becomes so obvious that this is the way he dominates a discussion. Don’t agree with him? He’ll have no respect for you and will end up attacking you. Why these often senseless attacks have been allowed over years is something I fail to understand. But then he fails to understand that this is not Houston Texas and hardly any others participating in this forum are virtual octogenarians. Since his views are those of an octogenarian who elects to live alone, best to pay no attention to him.

 

Try to avoid demonizing others and avoid the bad karma.  You can dominate a discussion too if you have good arguments. But there is nothing to be gained by "dominating" a discussion.  What is of value in a discussion is what we can learn from it.  As long as we have information that we think is useful, we should not shy away from delivering and even defending it. 

 

How many near-octogenarians who live alone do you know well?  I doubt that you know any,  because you would know that they are no different from any other person.  Then when you disagree with the senior guy you would not need to blame your disagreement on him being a senior,  but would instead pay attention and try to see his point of view.

[Steve5380]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:27 PM, Guest Look at the Picture said:

You are a joke.  

 

Back to the topic.  Every country is different, just like every family is different.  Just  because someone has a different way of disciplining their own child, doesn't mean you are right in teaching your own child.  China is like Gay people,  America is like Christian evangelist. NATO is like a mega Church.   As a Gay guy, it can be very frustrating.  You get the picture.  

 

Every country is different, every family is different and every individual is different.  This you get right.

 

But there are in everyone's genes some inborn moral principles that are not random or arbitrary, but differentiate between what is right and what is wrong.  There is an amazing majority of nations and cultures who condemn what Russia is doing to Ukraine. 

 

And you have in Singapore your own share of Christian evangelists,  ha ha.

 

@sgmaven, you noticed that this Guest told me that I am a joke.   Isn't this "disrespectful" ?  It may be, but why should I care for a "respect" by this Guest I know nothing about, and what is his "respect" worth.  So what he said does not make a dent in my respectfulness.

.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Steve5380

[Guest Guest]

 

On 3/22/2022 at 3:35 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Look back through Steve5380s responses and it becomes so obvious that this is the way he dominates a discussion. Don’t agree with him? He’ll have no respect for you and will end up attacking you. Why these often senseless attacks have been allowed over years is something I fail to understand. But then he fails to understand that this is not Houston Texas and hardly any others participating in this forum are virtual octogenarians. Since his views are those of an octogenarian who elects to live alone, best to pay no attention to him.

 

You are SPOT ON!

 

It always starts out with @Steve5380 being the rude one, as it is the same with that @singalion. It is almost like the two of them are always trying to up their stakes to antagonize others into even more disrespectful responses. And when they get slapped in their faces, they go around claiming that they are the victims, and the Mods will start siding with them because they are the AMDK, even when they are the ones to start them all in the first place. 

 

That's how angmoh's are brought up: They use their own version of their moral threshold to poke and prod you until, beyond which it becomes "wrong" and they try to claim that they are "innocent" and has not been "disrespectful".  And then they will stop there and let the other people take one single step further beyond this threshold, and that's when the Mods will come and blame it on everyone else except these people.

 

It's like a person falling from the edge of the cliff, and these two guys will think that it is not their fault for pushing and shoving the victim there, and the police (Mods) will claim that it is the fault of the victim becasue the two of them stopped their pushing and shoving at the edge of the cliff.

 

I have seen this happen so many times on this forum, where these two guys get away with such things all the time. 

 

And then to make it worse, they can even go that far to claim that others have been "disrespecful" to them, even though they were the ones to start the fight first.

 

I really miss those days when the old mods were around including Lungker and MrBlowingWind himself. They would have seen through these shit at a single glance.

[lonelyglobe]

Ukraine soldiers busy fighting with Russian in their country and here,  BW soldiers fighting with one another in this forum,  once again. 

 

SG follow the west to impose economic sanctions on Russia, lets see if China kena sanction by the west for helping Russia, would SG dare to follow? 

 

It was reported China and India was still buying cheap oil from Russia,  what a smart move by this two country. 

[singalion]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:36 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

@sgmaven, you noticed that this Guest told me that I am a joke.   Isn't this "disrespectful" ?  It may be, but why should I care for a "respect" by this Guest I know nothing about, and what is his "respect" worth.  So what he said does not make a dent in my respectfulness.

 

Sorry, Steve but what others do to you doesn't mean you have to do the same.

sgmaven is surely not a troll and up to my personal judgment never resorted to any serious trolling behaviours.

 

If someone is rude in real life, like cutting the queue at a supermarket cashier or taking advantages in other situations, then it doesn't mean you need to resort to the same.

Same applies at BW.

 

Others attacking you doesn't say you have the right to attack anyone at BW (or to be rude) also.

 

My advice to you is:

Don't approach posters here on a personal level. Don't judge anyone on a nick name.

Just refrain from any starting lines that put people off.

 

It would have been no harm to mention that saw something a bit "dramatic" or "more dramatic than necessary" but just look how you started that post responding to sgmaven. Also note the word "drama" has a certain connotation in the gay community. ok.

 

Also you are not a trainer here for people to gain a thick skin.

We are not at a face to face level at BW. People don't know when you are trying to crack a joke or to clarify things.

 

Also note that directness in Singapore (it is still an Asian country) is not common.

People here don't talk frankly but more around the bush.

 

If you ask someone, if he wants to join to a certain movie. Nobody would respond: I don't have mood to watch that bullshit, this is crap"

People here would just respond: "Oh I think on that evening I am attending a BBQ".

 

This is not a malicious attack, STeve but meant to prevent future situations.

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, sgmaven said:

Then you mention that the US does not invade UK or France, just because someone not so palatable gets elected. It does not mean that they do not try to influence the elections before that happens. Using force to depose of those governments would not get very much support within the US too. I doubt any US President would be able to get both chambers to support that kind of war.

 

Because the US is a democracy and does not depend on the mood or vague world view of one person.

 

But now look at Russia.

 

In Russia, the view of political things are just seen through the spectrum of Putin. What he says is the truth, what he intends will be done.

 

Russia's Putin declares the 2014 election of Petro Poroshenko as illegal.

(Well even the Eastern Russian provinces participated in the elections)

Russia's Putin declares the voting out of office of Yanukovych by the Ukrainian parliament in 2014 as unconstitutional.

(Well, he could have stayed in Ukraine and defend his position)

 

Even if the removal of Yanukovych it was unconstitutional but wasn't it the will of the people?

Not more than 3% wanted Yanukovych back in power.

 

Maybe the "error" of Russia in 2013 was not to have send their troops into Ukraine directly, when the uprising and protests started (from a Russian autocratic point of view).

I think Putin did not expect the extent of the Ukrainian revolution and thought he can influence Ukraine to shift back to be Pro Russian, change the government with influence. But Putin's grip on Ukraine was gone in 2014. It is like the child getting adult.

 

As long as Putin was able to somehow control Ukraine until 2014, everything was fine.

 

But this changed.

And when Zelenskiy was voted in 2019 it was even worse. There was no chance to get hold of Ukraine any longer.

 

 

(I don't support any invasion of Russia or interference into Ukraine's policies)...

 

[Was a bit busy on the weekend and didn't manage to write it earlier, that's why coming back to it only now]

 

[Guest Oily Skin]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:15 PM, lonelyglobe said:

It was reported China and India was still buying cheap oil from Russia,  what a smart move by this two country. 

So is France and Germany.  

[singalion]

 

On 3/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, sgmaven said:

I beg to differ, Russia, at the collapse of the Soviet Union, wasn't trying to gain back its "lost territory" or any grandeur of empire. However, the increasing "scope" and membership of NATO only gave rise to a Russia, who needed to make sure it can stand up against an entire "continent" committed to "controlling" Russia. If you ask me to "see it from the European perspective", then I will ask you to "see it from the Russian perspective".

 

Many European States, having been great powers at some stage in history, like to look back on the glory days. It is not just Russia. Just look at the likes of the UK and France, who try to "project power" beyond what they are really capable of militarily. This is the source of the undeniable national pride. When much of the continent of Europe then seems intent on uniting to counter an already weakened Russia, I am sure that it did not sit well will the Russians.

 

And yet, NATO continued to egg other on.

 

Meanwhile, in Russia, the failure of transformation into a truly free economy, but instead into an economy controlled by a select group of oligarchs caused some distress. What better leaf out of the playbook, than to distract the discontented masses with an external enemy?

 

You mentioned Hungary in 1956 or Poland in the 1980s. Well, that was wit the Soviet system still functioning as per normal, and the Cold War still raging. The US would definitely not have risked intervention in Warsaw Pact countries, since that would escalate into all out war between the US and the USSR. Quite like how the West is refusing to set up a no-fly-zone above the Ukraine currently.

 

Then you mention that the US does not invade UK or France, just because someone not so palatable gets elected. It does not mean that they do not try to influence the elections before that happens. Using force to depose of those governments would not get very much support within the US too. I doubt any US President would be able to get both chambers to support that kind of war.

 

As for non-alignment, you first have to look at Russia post-Soviet Union. While they did try to continue to unify what used to be the Soviet Union into the Commonwealth of Independent States, it did not invade those countries when most of them decided not to get involved with the CIS. Russia's current aggressive stance is very much a result of the NATO versus Russia play in the European theatre by the West. They really have been provoked over and over.

 

While I do not agree with the tactics that Putin is using, especially with the Annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the subsequent funding of separatists in Eastern Ukraine, culminating in this invasion. I don't think that Russia is the only one to blame for this catastrophe.

 

But resisting any application by Eastern European countries into NATO that would mean we would leave some fragile states nearing the Russian Federation on their own and at the mercy of Russia.

 

Does this secure any peace and stabilise Europe?

 

Surely I understand that Russia sees any enlargement of NATO to the east critical and as a reminder of Russia's stature (or the loss of it).

 

Also do we permit such bigger countries to raise their voice and caution their security fears?

 

Has NATO ever attacked Russia by military force?

If Russia does not have any bad intentions then what does it have to fear from NATO?

 

So the interference of Russia in Syria, Kazakhstan, Armenia Azabeidjan had something to do with NATO?

 

The latest intervention in Kazakstan was surely to prevent the same as in Ukraine, that people overthrow a Russia friendly President/PM.

The thing is quite similar for Ukraine in my view as the events in Chile with the US.

 

I don't even think the enlargement of NATO is the real issue of Putin.

It is more his inability that he lost to control Ukraine or have a certain grip of control on that country.

 

Also, in the view of Putin, the current Ukrainians are not thankful. Stalin created the Ukraine soviet Republic, Russians transferred the Crimea to Ukraine, the "conquered" or occupied parts of the East from Poland were integrated into Ukraine, Russia allowed it to be run on its own since 1991, and then? They want to switch away from the Russian influence sphere, do no longer want to do what the big brother tells them to do (or not to do). After all sacrifices that Russia made for Ukraine in the past?  (this is just a summary of the mindset of Putin, not my view). 

 

In fact this way of thinking is : You are free! (but you are not really free).

 

Putin intends to draw back the mistakes made by Russia in 1990/1991 and 1994 by Yeltsin.

Putin thought these countries will align with Russia naturally, because they are like from the same blood.

 

But this is not how the Ukrainians felt.

 

Note that Ukraine never joined the Collective Security Treaty Organisation in 1992, where Russia intended to bind the former soviet republics into a military organisation (against Nato).

 

Already at early stage Ukraine did not ratify the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States)

 

Signs had been at early stages that Ukraine did not intend to align too strong with Russia.

 

Events changed very much with Yanukovych. During his campaign he was pro EU, halfway pro NATO but once he was elected he backed off and starting aligning with Putin. Just remember the treaty to give Russia a hold on Sewastopol on the Crimea island.

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:15 PM, lonelyglobe said:

It was reported China and India was still buying cheap oil from Russia,  what a smart move by this two country. 

 

About 60% of Russia’s oil exports go to OECD Europe, and another 20% go to China. Data from  November 2021, the latest month for which official monthly oil statistics are available.

 

India received less than 1% of it's oil from Russia in 2021 (at low numbers). In 2020 it accounted just for 0.3% from Russia.

 

Russia has offered crude oil and other commodities at discounted rates to India after the US and its allies imposed sanctions on Moscow following President Vladimir Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine last month.

 

As the discounted price is cheaper than the oil from other parts, India has ordered more oil supplies the past 2 weeks.

 

But note that India buys 11% of its oil from US. (and is increasing imports from US).

 

Most of these imports are from West Asia, with Iraq accounting for 23%, Saudi Arabia 18% and the United Arab Emirates 11%. 

Additionally, the people noted that Russia has so far been only a “marginal supplier" of crude oil to India, accounting for less than 1% of the country’s requirements and not figuring among the top 10 sources.

 

[singalion]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:19 AM, sgmaven said:

How do you know that the general Russian does not see NATO's expansion as a threat? In fact, many Russians want their government to bring back the "glorious days of the past". That could be seen as standing up to NATO encroachment/enlargement.

 

The biggest problem is the state of media in Russia.

 

It is simply 99% government media.

 

Note that Russia is still reliant on TV (yes TV) news for most parts of the country. Internet connections are not the best and certain regions don't have any fast internet at all.

That means the government (Putin) is controlling the media.

While younger Russians had access to Western media, for the generation above 30y this is not the case.

 

What do you expect in a country with such controlled media?

 

Actually, many Russians preferred the liberties they gained at the end of Gorbachev period. The middle aged generation for sure, they had never seen such liberties as during those times.

 

It might be very difficult to say whether the "general" Russians or the majority would see any NATO expansion as a threat.

But if the media tells them every day how bad the Westerners are and the US is an enemy, they treat us bad. They don't want to understand us, what would you expect?

 

You must also understand, many Russians don't have the financial means to travel to the West and take own experience. Despite the fact that there are extremely rich Russians, the vast majority is poor.

 

For Ukrainians this was very different. Many actually went to the West to work.

 

 

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:30 PM, Steve5380 said:

Try to avoid demonizing others and avoid the bad karma.

Are you taking the advice you dish out?🙄

 

Frankly, the West and Russia cannot even find a point of agreement to start as the basis for discussion. Each, refusing to see each other's point of view. No doubt, there will not be any "agreement", with each insisting on their POV as the only way. In the end, it is the poor Ukrainian people who will have to pick up the pieces of their destroyed country.

 

While most of the UN members voted against Russia's actions against the Ukraine. They also know that they are powerless to rein the Kremlin in.

 

Putin is now like the cornered rat in his past. There is much less rational thought, than the sheer spite to get even. How do you deal with someone who has control over the biggest number of nuclear arms in the world?

 

You can "condemn" his actions, but in the end, what will really make him stop?

 

For in the end, all the condemnations at the UN will not bring back the dead in the Ukraine. It will not bring back the buildings that used to stand.

 

Condemnation is easy. But what concrete actions can really end the war?

 

[singalion]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:15 PM, sgmaven said:

Putin is now like the cornered rat in his past. There is much less rational thought, than the sheer spite to get even. How do you deal with someone who has control over the biggest number of nuclear arms in the world?

 

You can "condemn" his actions, but in the end, what will really make him stop?

 

I don't think Putin will push the atomic button.

 

The war might get nastier with chemical weapons within Ukraine. But the atomic blast, no.

 

Who will bring Russia back on track?

 

Either the oligarchs will desert him or someone from the politicians will just push him away (it wouldn't be a novelty for Russia) or if the people see that Russia is not advancing much the coming days, people will just go to the streets.

 

Large scale demonstrations wouldn't be the first time in Russia!

It is not that Russians did not protest in the past. Remember the 1990s.

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:51 PM, singalion said:

I don't think Putin will push the atomic button.

 

The war might get nastier with chemical weapons within Ukraine. But the atomic blast, no.

Don't forget there are things such as tactical nuclear weapons. They are smaller than strategic nuclear weapons, but are still nuclear weapons no doubt. There has been speculation that Putin may resort to using these tactical nukes in addition to the chemical weapons.

[sgmaven]

Remember that before the actual invasion of the Ukraine, many scholars/statesmen thought that Putin wouldn't launch an all-out invasion...

[Guest Smart guy]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:30 PM, sgmaven said:

Remember that before the actual invasion of the Ukraine, many scholars/statesmen thought that Putin wouldn't launch an all-out invasion...

Moral of the storey - book smart cannot win the street smart.  

[Steve5380]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:15 AM, sgmaven said:

Are you taking the advice you dish out?🙄

 

Frankly, the West and Russia cannot even find a point of agreement to start as the basis for discussion. Each, refusing to see each other's point of view. No doubt, there will not be any "agreement", with each insisting on their POV as the only way. In the end, it is the poor Ukrainian people who will have to pick up the pieces of their destroyed country.

 

While most of the UN members voted against Russia's actions against the Ukraine. They also know that they are powerless to rein the Kremlin in.

 

Putin is now like the cornered rat in his past. There is much less rational thought, than the sheer spite to get even. How do you deal with someone who has control over the biggest number of nuclear arms in the world?

 

You can "condemn" his actions, but in the end, what will really make him stop?

 

For in the end, all the condemnations at the UN will not bring back the dead in the Ukraine. It will not bring back the buildings that used to stand.

 

Condemnation is easy. But what concrete actions can really end the war?

 

 

Of course.  I often write for myself as much as for others.  It is a way to consolidate my thoughts. 

 

Yes, most countries are powerless against Russia.  This is why they look at big America for help.  A country that most look at for protection... cannot be so bad.

 

Unfortunately there are no ways in sight to end the attack on Ukraine. Time will have to tell.

 

One disturbing news is that Russia is deploying its new hypersonic missile to target Ukraine. This thing can travel at an incredible velocity like Mach 10,  and this makes it nearly impossible to detect and counter.  I have read that the high velocity creates a plasma at the front of the missile that diffuses radar waves, somethin interesting to investigate.  There is a new arms race centered on the 'hypersonic'. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/magazine/hypersonic-missiles.html

 

Surely American scientists and engineers are working like crazy to match the capabilities of the Russians, and who knows what new technologies will emerge from this.  Sad that we are again in an arms race, but this is how humanity is.  I am confident that my country has more economical and technical resources than Russia, and will be able to counter their new threat... within some time.  So hopefully, no world war III before a couple more years.

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:44 PM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Why on earth would you write in a chat forum to satisfy yourself? Or to “consolidate your thoughts” as you put it. Surely most posters have a pre-firmed view which they then express? Your way of posting now becomes clearer. A means of satisfying yourself with little regard for readers of what you write.

 

I thought you would know that the New York Times has a paywall around it. Posting a link is all but a waste of time for Asians.
 

Do you seriously believe a Third World War will involve only conventional arms with whatever new technologies?
 

With dictators like Putin now seemingly some kind of mental case, the next World War may be the last. Nuclear weapons cannot be kept unleashed forever. Even if the big powers have developed some kind of detection system that can destroy nukes before they reach their targets, much of the world as we know it is likely to be Hiroshima and Nagasaki on a mind blowing scale. 

 

You need to control your negativity.  Many creative people find satisfaction in their works.  Authors find it in writing their books,  composers find it in composing their music.  Artists find satisfaction in performing their art.  All this does not mean that they have no regard for their audiences.  Just the contrary.  They want to give their audiences the best of themselves.  And they also do it for themselves.

 

I am sorry you could not access the article I quoted.  I didn't notice this,  since I have a digital subscription to the New York Times.  I got their introductory offer for one dollar a week for one year,  which I think it is worth, giving the quality of their articles.  After the year is over, I will cancel it, because the price goes up sharply.  You surely can subscribe and get the same offer also, Asian or not Asian.  And you can find much information of the 'hypersonic' on the web that is free.

 

The use by Russia of its hypersonic missiles is very disturbing, because it means that Ukraine will not have a way to protect itself from destruction on the long run.  What will make the Russians stop destroying Ukraine at will?  Here there could be the hope that the economic sanctions should do their effect over time,  but this may come with a big loss for Ukraine and for Russia too.  

.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Steve5380

[singalion]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:52 PM, Guest Smart guy said:

Moral of the storey - book smart cannot win the street smart.  

 

It has nothing to do with smart, because it has something to do with prediction. 

 

You can compare it with weather forecast. 

 

Will book smart forecast the weather better than street smart?

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:00 PM, Guest wahahahaha said:

I didnn't find it any disrespectful at all.  It is a kosher way of calling you A CLOWN....wahahahahaha

 

wahahahahahaha,  I don't find it disrespectful either.  It does not even jump to one tiny fraction of my level of self-respect. A CLOWN is not bad either.  It takes some skills to be a good clown.  

 

But I am sure that if I write this to someone, either a member or guest, with an agenda,   a big scandal would erupt where for doing it I am demonized worse a serial killer, and called all sorts of names.    

 

But so is life,  placing one in such a cheap target being an American, an Ang Moh, and a near-octogenarian.  Should I start to cry, shedding some crocodile tears?  No.  Instead, my skin is getting every time thicker.  (they say that a thick skin is sign of a healthy, youthful skin.  I rather put on some weight from thick skin than from belly fat )

[singalion]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:44 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Why on earth would you write in a chat forum to satisfy yourself? Or to “consolidate your thoughts” as you put it. Surely most posters have a pre-firmed view which they then express? Your way of posting now becomes clearer. A means of satisfying yourself with little regard for readers of what you write.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like Steve is using BW as a self therapy. 

🤣

 

Sorry Steve but you gave that assist. 

 

[singalion]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:31 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

wahahahahahaha,  I don't find it disrespectful either.  It does not even jump to one tiny fraction of my level of self-respect. A CLOWN is not bad either.  It takes some skills to be a good clown.  

 

But I am sure that if I write this to someone, either a member or guest, with an agenda,   a big scandal would erupt where for doing it I am demonized worse a serial killer, and called all sorts of names.    

 

But so is life,  placing one in such a cheap target being an American, an Ang Moh, and a near-octogenarian.  Should I start to cry, shedding some crocodile tears?  No.  Instead, my skin is getting every time thicker.  (they say that a thick skin is sign of a healthy, youthful skin.  I rather put on some weight from thick skin than from belly fat )

 

Why do you still waste your time to respond to obvious Guest troll posts? 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:45 PM, Guest Similarity Spotted said:

 

Surrender is the best way to make peace, but you threw smokescreen and tear gas to complicate and confuse....that doesn't make sense.   

 

 

I am sorry that I am in disagreement.  

 

Surrender may be a necessary way to attain peace, but it is not the best way.    Look at the definition of surrender:

 

"cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority."

 

A good way to attain peace is when both sides cease attacking their opponent.  By mutual agreement.  

 

To cease resistance and submit to the authority of the opponent is not the most honorable way to achieve peace.

[sgmaven]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:45 AM, Guest Similarity Spotted said:

Surrender is the best way to make peace, but you threw smokescreen and tear gas to complicate and confuse....that doesn't make sense. 

Unfortunately, surrender is not on the minds of the Ukrainians. There is strong public pressure on Zelensky within the Ukraine not to give in to Russia.

 

To say surrender is easy, but what are you really willing to give up? If a country invaded Singapore, and in their conditions for peace (let's say they are winning the war), was that they install a puppet government, and insist that Singaporeans will no longer be able to teach/learn local history or use any of the languages that we are use. Meanwhile, they will send millions of immigrants from their own country to make Singaporeans a minority on this island. Would you still want to make peace, for the sake of saving lives?

[sgmaven]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:25 PM, Guest They are here said:

If the current government is weak and hopeless, and who didn't care much about its own people and recklessly brought in non-ciitizens into this country,  it is worse than defeat. No different from what you painted.

If... However, I don't think the Ukrainians have this view of their government at all... In fact, many thinkers are now comparing Zelensky with Churchill!

[sgmaven]

A major miscalculation on Putin's part, is how the Russia-leaning Eastern part of the Ukraine has turned against the Russians. Cities like Kharkiv, Kherson and Mariupol were known to be very supportive of closer links with Moscow before the invasion took place. Yet, they are now the centre of the bravest show of resistance against the Russians!

 

Look at the unarmed civilians coming out on the streets to protest against the Russian takeover of Kherson!

 

I think Putin originally expected them to welcome the Russians!

[sgmaven]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:45 PM, Guest They are here said:

Ukranians are generally very nationalistic, their government often listened to popular views and voices.  You don't see people united as much as the Ukranian during war.  One reason is because they do not adopt so much immigrant opened policies and within their own citizens who speak a different language, is not welcomed  into their national heart, thus the prolonged civil war.  Zelensky is simply maintaining the status quo.  Now he cannot even make decision but try to seek referendeum from  people in the frontline battle who care less about lives.  At the same time, he still wanted to talk with Putin with nothing on the table to offer.    What a moron he is.  Celebrity cannot be a good politician. 

Are you some Russian troll? Or have you solely been watching RT?🙄

 

The Ukraine has always been very diverse, with the Eastern part of the country having a big Russian-speaking population. Do get your facts right! They are not suppressed. Even Zelensky himself speaks Russian, and so do many in the parliament.

[sgmaven]

On 3/23/2022 at 6:51 PM, Guest He knew better said:

Ukrainian are very unfriendly towards Russian speaking people. Putin said one.  He can't be wrong. 

Just like what Putin says, the Ukrainian government is full of Neo-Nazis?🙄

[sgmaven]

We have already stated with proof that the Ukrainian parliament only has a single seat that belongs to the Far Right (Oleh Tyahnybok of the Svoboda party (constituency seat).

 

The far right parties comprising Svoboda, National Corps, Government Initiative of Yarosh and the Right Sector formed a coalition in the 2019 elections. But the coalition gained less than the 5% of vote share (2.15%) during the last elections, and hence were not awarded any seats in parliament via the national party list.

 

To the moderators: Please scrub the thread of all sorts of fake news. Thanks!

Edited March 23, 2022 by sgmaven
Correction

[Steve5380]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:38 AM, sgmaven said:

A major miscalculation on Putin's part, is how the Russia-leaning Eastern part of the Ukraine has turned against the Russians. Cities like Kharkiv, Kherson and Mariupol were known to be very supportive of closer links with Moscow before the invasion took place. Yet, they are now the centre of the bravest show of resistance against the Russians!

 

Look at the unarmed civilians coming out on the streets to protest against the Russian takeover of Kherson!

 

I think Putin originally expected them to welcome the Russians!

 

Who knows...

 

The eastern Ukrainian separatists fought to be part of Russia.  Now that they see what a monstrosity the Kremlin is and how barbaric the Russian military is and how their fellow Ukrainians are being massacred, they may realize that it is not a good deal to be part of Russia.

 

This removes an important justification of Putin for his invasion:  "to protect their poor Russian separatists from the attacks they receive from the Ukrainian army."  

[sgmaven]

On 3/24/2022 at 12:33 AM, Steve5380 said:

The eastern Ukrainian separatists fought to be part of Russia.  Now that they see what a monstrosity the Kremlin is and how barbaric the Russian military is and how their fellow Ukrainians are being massacred, they may realize that it is not a good deal to be part of Russia.

 

This removes an important justification of Putin for his invasion:  "to protect their poor Russian separatists from the attacks they receive from the Ukrainian army."  

The separatists in the Donbas were already in control of a large swathe of land in the East of the Ukraine before the Russians invaded. They were not really affected by the invasion, except that they probably experienced less skirmishes with the Ukrainian army, since the Russians took a lot of territory there.

 

The key difference is in the people of the cities like Kherson, Kharkiv and Mariupol, who were very pro-Russia before the invasion. These people are now increasingly anti-Russian.

[fourth]

 

 

Donbass - 2016. Documentary Anne-Laure Bonnel (subtitles EN FR SPA ITA)

Go follow her on instagram. on the ground reports and as real as it gets as Donbass receives constant shelling from Ukraine since 2014.

MSM would have you believe that it's news cooked up by Putin to justify going to war with Ukraine.

Edited March 24, 2022 by fourth

[fourth]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:00 PM, sgmaven said:

The separatists in the Donbas were already in control of a large swathe of land in the East of the Ukraine before the Russians invaded. They were not really affected by the invasion, except that they probably experienced less skirmishes with the Ukrainian army, since the Russians took a lot of territory there.

 

The key difference is in the people of the cities like Kherson, Kharkiv and Mariupol, who were very pro-Russia before the invasion. These people are now increasingly anti-Russian.

 

Not the Mariupol people though. What they went through in the past weeks were horrible; being forced underground and used as meat shields BY the ukrainian Azoz regiment.

[sgmaven]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:42 PM, fourth said:

Go follow her on instagram. on the ground reports and as real as it gets as Donbass receives constant shelling from Ukraine since 2014.

MSM would have you believe that it's news cooked up by Putin to justify going to war with Ukraine.

I know that the Donas was far from peaceful prior to the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, with both sides (Ukrainian army and the separatists exchange fire).

[singalion]

On 3/23/2022 at 7:33 PM, sgmaven said:

To the moderators: Please scrub the thread of all sorts of fake news. Thanks!

 

I m not sure they (the Moderators) are able to recognise what is fake.

 

Some Guests here just intend to provoke emotions.

Best is to ignore their posts.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by singalion

[sgmaven]

Sad to say, Truth is the first thing to die in a war... Both sides will release their own propaganda and truths.

[singalion]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:44 PM, fourth said:

 

Not the Mariupol people though. What they went through in the past weeks were horrible; being forced underground and used as meat shields BY the ukrainian Azoz regiment.

 

That of the Azoz regiment was a claim made by Russia and Lavrov.

So far there has not been any source that confirmed the claims made by Russia on Azov regiments.

 

Everyone should be cautious on the media reports made by Russia's controlled media and these "social media influencers" from the Donbas

 

Russia simply intends to cover up their own human rights abuses in hitting against civilian targets in Ukraine

 

This article gives more light onto it:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/

 

 

 

 

The Azov Battalion: How Putin built a false premise for a war against "Nazis" in Ukraine

March 22, 2022

 

Since Vladimir Putin ordered his military to invade Ukraine on February 24, his government has stubbornly defined the attack as a "special operation" to liberate Russia's neighbors from the clutches of a criminal regime beholden to "neo-Nazis." But the premise for Putin's war, and his repeated insistence that Russia's military is carefully avoiding civilians with its artillery barrage, are belied by the reality on the ground in cities like Mariupol.

 

 

 

The southern port has been under siege by Russian forces for weeks, with officials and aid groups saying food, water, and electricity have all been cut to thousands of people still trapped there. Ukrainian authorities say at least 2,300 civilians have been killed in Mariupol alone, with some buried in mass graves amid the relentless shelling.

 

Still, Moscow sticks to its line: "Kyiv instructed the Nazi battalions in Mariupol to leave the city under the guise of civilians, including through humanitarian corridors," Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov said Monday.

 

"More than 130,000 people are still held by the nationalist battalions [in Mariupol]. People are being held hostage, they are simply not allowed out of the areas controlled by the Nazi battalions, threatened with executions and physical liquidation," Denis Pushilin, head of the Russian-backed separatist regime in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk region, said a few hours later on Russian state TV.

 

Russia's alternate reality

References to "Nazi battalions" appear in virtually all Russian news reports about the war in Ukraine. The Kremlin has doubled down on the narrative that Russia is "liberating" Ukraine from Nazis, and that narrative has maintained a consistent focus on one extremist militia in particular - the Azov Battalion.

 

Russian state TV anchors have worked around the clock to portray Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy — who is Jewish — as a leader of a neo-Nazi-leaning government infiltrated by the Azov group.

 

To Russian viewers with little or no access to alternative sources of information, it may indeed appear that Russia's soldiers are fighting hordes of Nazis who are using Ukrainians as "human shields" and committing atrocities against Ukraine's many Russian speakers.

So how widespread are far-right sentiments in Ukraine, and how much influence does the Azov Battalion really have?

What is the Azov Battalion?

"There are no Nazi battalions in Ukraine," said Ruslan Leviev, an analyst with the Conflict Intelligence Team, which tracks the Russian military in Ukraine.

 

"There is [the Azov] regiment... There are [estimated] several thousand people who are in this regiment. It is indeed a group where many members adhere to nationalist and far-right views," Leviev said. "But a lot of people also join it because it is one of the most prepared and fit-for-war units."

 

The Azov Battalion rose to prominence in 2014, at the start of the separatist insurgency in eastern Ukraine. The country's armed forces, which at the time were woefully unprepared for battle, were taken by surprise when Russian-backed separatists started seizing swaths of territory in the Donbas area, along Russia's border.

 

 

The Azov Battalion stepped in. It was better-equipped and prepared to do much of the frontline fighting against the separatists. The unit has its roots in aggressive fan clubs that support regional soccer teams, known as "ultras," but as the fighting ramped up, they attracted various far-right activists, who often made no secret of their neo-Nazi sympathies.

 

The militia was founded by Andriy Biletsky, an ultra-nationalist political figure who previously led groups including the openly neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly (SNA), which preached an ideology of racial purity for Ukraine.

 

In 2014, the battalion was backed by Ukraine's controversial then-Minister of Interior Affairs Arsen Avakov and was financed by several Ukrainian oligarchs. The new benefactors included some wealthy Ukrainians of Jewish descent, who appeared to be prioritizing the group's efficacy in the battle for Ukrainian sovereignty in Donbas over its ideology.

 

In late 2014, Azov was expanded from a battalion into a regiment, and was officially embedded into the Ukrainian National Guard — an official law enforcement agency, but not part of Ukraine's national armed forces.

 

On the wave of Azov's battlefield successes in Donbas, Biletsky won a seat in the Ukrainian parliament as an independent candidate in September 2014. That gave Moscow more ammunition to tar Ukraine's central government as sympathetic to Nazis. Biletsky was not re-elected when his term ended five years later.

 

Over the course of the grinding eight-year war in Donbas, the United Nations human rights commissioner's office documented a litany of human rights violations by both sides in the fight, including allegations of the "extensive use of civilian buildings and locations… and looting of civilian property, leading to displacement" by Azov Battalion forces.

Azov on the digital front

Off the battlefield, Azov became known for its presence on social media, where it regularly posted slickly produced videos of marches and other events.

 

Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it has pivoted to posting high-quality videos, often shot by drones and professional cameras, capturing both the devastation of Russia's aerial bombardment, and successful counterattacks on the invading Russian forces. 

 

An aerial view shows an explosion and smoke rising from damaged residential buildings, amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine, in Mariupol, March 14, 2022, in a still image taken from drone video posted to social media by the "Azov Battalion."

 

The Kremlin has seized on the Azov origins of the content to push its narrative that Ukrainian forces are all neo-Nazi sympathizers.

 

"Azov has achieved levels of mainstream media exposure far in excess of the group's minimal electoral support," Oleksiy Kuzmenko, a Washington D.C.-based investigative reporter who has tracked the battalion for years, wrote in a commentary for the Atlantic Council.

 

"The far-right in general, and their apparent impunity, have significantly damaged Ukraine's international reputation and left the country vulnerable to hostile narratives exaggerating the role of extremist groups in Ukraine," he concluded.

 

The Azov group's media presence, in particular, made it something of a magnet for far-right minded people abroad, Kuzmenko said, with foreign men seeking to join the militia to gain combat experience. In a report for the investigative group Bellingcat, Kuzmenko and Ukrainian organizations found links between the Azov Battalion and white supremacist groups in the U.S.

Leviev said the militia's influence had declined in recent years, however, after its main backer Avakov was essentially forced to retire.

 

"Overall, the influence of various officials, including Avakov, outside of Azov, is very limited," Leviev said. "There were no Nazi battalions roaming around the streets and trying to embed into [the government] system, as the Kremlin is trying to portray."

 

"So if not for this war, this stage of the war, the far-right movement would have eventually vanished," he said.

 

 

 

=> Don't fall trap to these Putin/ Russia propaganda narratives.

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:44 PM, fourth said:

 

Not the Mariupol people though. What they went through in the past weeks were horrible; being forced underground and used as meat shields BY the ukrainian Azoz regiment.

 

Don't succumb to the Putin propaganda.

 

If it had been correct then there would not be any Ukrainian army other than the Azov regiment to defend the city of Mariupol.

 

Sufficient people that escaped have confirmed the non stop shelling of civilian targets in Mariupol and that people sheltered in underground bunkers etc. The city is not that small that only the Azov regiment can defend it.

 

The human shield claim by Russia on Azov regiment has not been verified by any source.

However, it is repeated by the Russian media.

 

Further, if you look at other cities where no Azov regiment is stationed, Russia shells hospitals, schools, and other civilian objects also.

 

Would you believe that all of the Ukrainian army take civilians as human shields to defend the country???

 

These are just propaganda claims made by Russia to distract from their vast human rights violations and war crimes.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:09 AM, sgmaven said:

Sad to say, Truth is the first thing to die in a war... Both sides will release their own propaganda and truths.

 

Yet, some truths are more true than others.