Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[sgmaven]

@InBangkok, you have to realise that @Steve5380feels so beholden to his adopted country that he feels compelled to come to its defense whenever someone points out anything unsavoury about it (true or not). @Steve5380then conveniently has amnesia when it comes to all the atrocities that the US has committed in the name of "Freedom". There is no continent (save Antarctica - and that was saved by the Antarctic Treaty) that has escaped the meddling of the US, just because it feels it has the "right" to do what it chooses. Woe to any other country, be it adversaries/threats like China or Russia, other allies like the UK and France, if they try to do the same thing. The US uses one set of rules on other nations, and another set for themselves.

[LeanMature]

I somehow find US is always the instigator,  and together with UK and Australia, forever talking about security threat, human rights and freedom of navigation with other nations in order to sell more weapons.   I may be wrong about my view, but then, only with conflicts and wars around the world, weapon sale will earn big bucks.

[InBangkok]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:46 PM, LeanMature said:

I somehow find US is always the instigator,  and together with UK and Australia, forever talking about security threat, human rights and freedom of navigation with other nations in order to sell more weapons.   I may be wrong about my view, but then, only with conflicts and wars around the world, weapon sale will earn big bucks.

You are quite correct is raising the arms sale matter. After all the USA propped up the Shah of Iran with a huge number of arms and cash because it wanted an ally in that part of the middle East. It turned a blind eye to the terrible atrocities meted out to dissidents and others by the notorious Savak secret police. But it totally failed to realise the discontent rising rapidly in the general population in the 1970s. That resulted in the Iranian Revolution and the storming the US Embassy. Result? An enemy virtually ever since.

 

During the 8 year Iran/Iraq war started by Iraq, which country did the USA back with more masses of arms and cash? Saddam Hussein's Iraq! And which country did the USA invade because Hussein had used some of those arms and cash to invade Kuwait? Iraq!

 

The USA, the UK and other countries regularly sell mountains of arms to Saudi Arabia with no  concern for that country's human rights abuses. Yet they constantly harp on about other countries' human rights abuses. They are all morally bankrupt.

Edited May 10, 2022 by InBangkok

[sgmaven]

On 5/10/2022 at 3:07 PM, InBangkok said:

The USA, the UK and other countries regularly sell mountains of arms to Saudi Arabia with no  concern for that country's human rights abuses. Yet they constantly harp on about other countries' human rights abuses. They are all morally bankrupt.

Well, I did mention about the case of the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Turkey. By then, Khashoggi no longer living in Saudi Arabia, and yet, the Saudis flew in a special hit squad to get him. Despite such injustices, the West continues to tango with the Saudis. That is not to mention that Saudi Arabia is the home of Wahabism, which gave birth to El Qaeda and IS. The Saudi Royals continue to support Wahabism, because it helps to legitimise their rule, and continue to suppress individual rights and freedoms. Yet, the West keeps quiet of these things. So much for "doing what is right and moral", it is really about what is expedient!

[lonelyglobe]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:46 PM, LeanMature said:

I somehow find US is always the instigator,  and together with UK and Australia, forever talking about security threat, human rights and freedom of navigation with other nations in order to sell more weapons.   I may be wrong about my view, but then, only with conflicts and wars around the world, weapon sale will earn big bucks.

Absolutely,  if today taiwan guai guai return to china, there is no need to buy weapons anymore. Same like those covid vaccine and ART manufacturer,  do they want covid to disappear? 

[singalion]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:46 PM, LeanMature said:

I somehow find US is always the instigator,  and together with UK and Australia, forever talking about security threat, human rights and freedom of navigation with other nations in order to sell more weapons.   I may be wrong about my view, but then, only with conflicts and wars around the world, weapon sale will earn big bucks.

 

On 5/10/2022 at 4:30 PM, lonelyglobe said:

Absolutely,  if today taiwan guai guai return to china, there is no need to buy weapons anymore. Same like those covid vaccine and ART manufacturer,  do they want covid to disappear? 

 

Hm, I always thought there is a small little red dot country in South East Asia that buys a lot of weapons even in peace times... 

 

[singalion]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:46 PM, LeanMature said:

I somehow find US is always the instigator,  and together with UK and Australia, forever talking about security threat, human rights and freedom of navigation with other nations in order to sell more weapons.   I may be wrong about my view, but then, only with conflicts and wars around the world, weapon sale will earn big bucks.

 

I don't think the US is always the instigator. 

 

Surely, the US had no impact on the Sudan war or the West Sahara conflict. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

I am noticing that, in spite of my efforts, some misguided righteousness has risen passions to the point that some members cannot refrain from multiple "bash America" orgasms.  This does not concern me and I have no control over this, so I will not intervene in the relief of their glands,  I don't need to clean up afterwards anyway.

 

These are not the kind of orgasms that should come about in a gay website.

[Steve5380]

I'm glad to see some confirmation of what I always thought should happen:

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:59 PM, Steve5380 said:

I'm glad to see some confirmation of what I always thought should happen:

 

 

I hope you know what The Sun is famous for... And it is not the news...

[sgmaven]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:25 PM, Steve5380 said:

I am noticing that, in spite of my efforts, some misguided righteousness has risen passions to the point that some members cannot refrain from multiple "bash America" orgasms.  This does not concern me and I have no control over this, so I will not intervene in the relief of their glands,  I don't need to clean up afterwards anyway.

 

These are not the kind of orgasms that should come about in a gay website.

I think you would find that not all here are misguided enough to only want to "bash the US". If you approach the discussions with a more even keel with respect to what the US does, rather than just paint the beautiful part of the picture (and leaving out the sordid details), you will find that we won't be "attacking the US" in our responses.

[Steve5380]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:50 PM, sgmaven said:

I hope you know what The Sun is famous for... And it is not the news...

 

What I know The Sun is famous for is in providing energy to all its planets, especially the earth. 

Am I missing something?

 

 

On 5/10/2022 at 12:54 PM, sgmaven said:

I think you would find that not all here are misguided enough to only want to "bash the US". If you approach the discussions with a more even keel with respect to what the US does, rather than just paint the beautiful part of the picture (and leaving out the sordid details), you will find that we won't be "attacking the US" in our responses.

 

I don't claim that all here only want to bash the US.  This is mostly the case of those who have some beef with me, like one tenor.   I am planning to disregard these bashings.

[InBangkok]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:11 PM, sgmaven said:

@InBangkok, you have to realise that @Steve5380feels so beholden to his adopted country that he feels compelled to come to its defense whenever someone points out anything unsavoury about it (true or not). @Steve5380then conveniently has amnesia when it comes to all the atrocities that the US has committed in the name of "Freedom" . . . The US uses one set of rules on other nations, and another set for themselves.

You are correct. Perhaps oddly I feel no compulsion to act in the same way about my own country, and I suspect that is because I have spent most of my life in Asia. I will happily discuss the atrocities my country committed in some other parts of the world in its sometimes brutal colonialism. Indeed, I consider colonialism a dirty word. It was a way for already wealthy countries to make themselves richer through goods and luxuries produced by cheap labour which it controlled with some pretty draconian laws.

 

I know there is some debate going on in the USA about compensation to be paid to the descendants of those forcibly brought to the country through the evils of slavery. I rarely hear about the need for such compensation for the evils of colonialism by Britain, Belgium, Germany, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal and others.

Edited May 11, 2022 by InBangkok

[sgmaven]

On 5/11/2022 at 3:04 AM, Steve5380 said:

What I know The Sun is famous for is in providing energy to all its planets, especially the earth. 

Am I missing something?

I am not referring to the celestial body that the Earth orbits around. Rather, I am referring to your choice of news site. Do you know the background of that tabloid?

[Guest Angry Bird]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:25 PM, Steve5380 said:

I am noticing that, in spite of my efforts, some misguided righteousness has risen passions to the point that some members cannot refrain from multiple "bash America" orgasms.

It took so long for you to notice how right you are that nobody likes America as much.  A country that has been trouble-makers for decades, can't even manage their own human rights issue. They poke their long nose into other people backyward just to name a few.  America government has been profiting from all the wars in this world.  Whether is is republican or democratican, they are disgusting people.  Repulsive, vile and nauseating and I am not even done with it, just yet.  They tried to change history, packed the white house with capitalist, coporate self-interest, religious freaked who are so out of human touch.  I am not done with justifiable bashing,  America's inconsistencies on world stage is telling, One one hand, they destroyed Nazis, on the other hand they armed them to destroy their enemy. Same applies to Islamist, at times treated them like foe and then become friends quite out of the blue to suit an agenda..  Which part of America is good?  I cannot find any and don't try to convince me.  I am done with America. 

[singalion]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:25 PM, Steve5380 said:

I am noticing that, in spite of my efforts, some misguided righteousness has risen passions to the point that some members cannot refrain from multiple "bash America" orgasms.  This does not concern me and I have no control over this, so I will not intervene in the relief of their glands,  I don't need to clean up afterwards anyway.

 

These are not the kind of orgasms that should come about in a gay website.

 

You can close your eyes to facts.

 

I m not sure why you need to call critic on a country's behaviour "bashing".

 

America has done a lot of wrong in the past.

 

I find your allegations that Members here condone to America bashing disgusting and displaced.

 

You find it arrogant when China behaves like a superpower (that is might not yet be) but when the US displayed arrogance to rules and smaller countries, then critic on such behaviour is America bashing...

 

Was the invasion of Iraq actually required?

Didn't it have serious repercussions on the US?

 

Didn't it give rise to elevated anti Americanism (if not outright hatred) in many Muslim countries and look what the result was?

 

I don't intend to defend Saddam Hussein but during the same time, there were plenty of other nasty dictators.

 

What did the US do against Mugabe, Chavez or Ortega?

And why is there so little action against the military dictators in the past at Myanmar?

 

In the end Hussein from Iraq was just a scapegoat for Bush junior to justify a distraction or a tool to preserve his re-election...

 

As someone else posted here recently, the Bush Jr administration did not look good when it comes to counterintelligence on the 9/11 attacks. There were too many hints but nobody draw conclusions on the clues. Foreign secret services who reported intelligence were brushed aside...

 

How '9/11 mastermind' slipped through FBI's fingers

By Gordon Corera & Steve Swann
BBC News

Published 6 September 2021

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58393231

 

2022
How the CIA, FBI, and Presidential Administrations Failed to Prevent 9/11
Samantha McBride
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRoNO2otf3AhVD7nMBHdo-AlE4ChAWegQIERAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.claremont.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D3912%26context%3Dcmc_theses&usg=AOvVaw0lFpthm_aXgmhN_mVHavaa

 

The September 11 commission and its findings

https://www.britannica.com/event/September-11-attacks/The-September-11-commission-and-its-findings#ref1118169

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:22 AM, Guest Angry Bird said:

It took so long for you to notice how right you are that nobody likes America as much.  A country that has been trouble-makers for decades, can't even manage their own human rights issue. They poke their long nose into other people backyward just to name a few.  America government has been profiting from all the wars in this world.  Whether is is republican or democratican, they are disgusting people.  Repulsive, vile and nauseating and I am not even done with it, just yet.  They tried to change history, packed the white house with capitalist, coporate self-interest, religious freaked who are so out of human touch.  I am not done with justifiable bashing,  America's inconsistencies on world stage is telling, One one hand, they destroyed Nazis, on the other hand they armed them to destroy their enemy. Same applies to Islamist, at times treated them like foe and then become friends quite out of the blue to suit an agenda..  Which part of America is good?  I cannot find any and don't try to convince me.  I am done with America. 

 

You have all the right to dislike America.  You can be done with it, without consequences for others.  I also dislike things, like eating okra,  which some say is very healthy.

[Steve5380]

On 5/11/2022 at 6:01 AM, singalion said:

 

You can close your eyes to facts.

 

I m not sure why you need to call critic on a country's behaviour "bashing".

 

America has done a lot of wrong in the past.

 

I find your allegations that Members here condone to America bashing disgusting and displaced.

 

You find it arrogant when China behaves like a superpower (that is might not yet be) but when the US displayed arrogance to rules and smaller countries, then critic on such behaviour is America bashing...

 

Was the invasion of Iraq actually required?

Didn't it have serious repercussions on the US?

 

Didn't it give rise to elevated anti Americanism (if not outright hatred) in many Muslim countries and look what the result was?

 

I don't intend to defend Saddam Hussein but during the same time, there were plenty of other nasty dictators.

 

What did the US do against Mugabe, Chavez or Ortega?

And why is there so little action against the military dictators in the past at Myanmar?

 

In the end Hussein from Iraq was just a scapegoat for Bush junior to justify a distraction or a tool to preserve his re-election...

 

As someone else posted here recently, the Bush Jr administration did not look good when it comes to counterintelligence on the 9/11 attacks. There were too many hints but nobody draw conclusions on the clues. Foreign secret services who reported intelligence were brushed aside...

 

How '9/11 mastermind' slipped through FBI's fingers

By Gordon Corera & Steve Swann
BBC News

Published 6 September 2021

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58393231

 

2022
How the CIA, FBI, and Presidential Administrations Failed to Prevent 9/11
Samantha McBride
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRoNO2otf3AhVD7nMBHdo-AlE4ChAWegQIERAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.claremont.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D3912%26context%3Dcmc_theses&usg=AOvVaw0lFpthm_aXgmhN_mVHavaa

 

The September 11 commission and its findings

https://www.britannica.com/event/September-11-attacks/The-September-11-commission-and-its-findings#ref1118169

 

 

 

 

I hope the satisfaction you got writing this post compensates for its size in this thread and its storage on the server.

[Steve5380]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:18 PM, sgmaven said:

I am not referring to the celestial body that the Earth orbits around. Rather, I am referring to your choice of news site. Do you know the background of that tabloid?

 

I knew what you meant.  In reality I know nothing about the publication, which I suspect is a dirty tabloid, since it belongs to Rupert Murdoch.

[sgmaven]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:07 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

I knew what you meant.  In reality I know nothing about the publication, which I suspect is a dirty tabloid, since it belongs to Rupert Murdoch.

You are quite right that it is a dirty tabloid, which made its name with the Page 3 Models, launching the careers of the likes of Samantha Fox, who later made it for a a while as a pop singer (with equally provocative songs like "Touch Me (I Wanna Feel Your Body)" and "Do Ya, Do Ya (Wanna Please Me)").

 

If you don't know what Page 3 Models are (so named because the picture took up the entirety of Page 3 of the tabloid), go look it up.

[Steve5380]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:02 PM, sgmaven said:

 

If you don't know what Page 3 Models are (so named because the picture took up the entirety of Page 3 of the tabloid), go look it up.

 

 

Are there some nice male models on these Pages 3?   I don't care for the girls.

[singalion]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:41 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Are there some nice male models on these Pages 3?   I don't care for the girls.

 

Nobody prevents you from volunteering in Ukraine, I m sure you will get to see some hot male models on the front ...

 

[InBangkok]

As we discuss Ukraine, many in Europe are concerned about what other ambitions the criminal Putin has in his mind and on his country's horizon. We know that he has an objective of ensuring NATO gets nowhere near Russia. We know that he regards the fall of the Soviet Union as one of the worst days in history. How far will he go to try and reverse that "disaster"?

 

His major problem is that NATO has got a great deal larger since the Fall of the Soviet Union. Fear of NATO embracing Ukraine is clearly one of the reasons for his actions there. But we should not forget that Russia's border with the rest of Europe is huge. It covers 12 countries. The most worrying for NATO  must be the three Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, and also Finland. All four countries were an integral part of the Russian Empire in the 19th century. So they are unlike most of the other countries bordering present day Russia.

 

i have been in Finland 4 times - three in Helsinki and once in a lodge about an hour from the city of Ivalo beyond the Arctic Circle and just 8 kilometres from the Russian border. One of the first sights you see in Helsinki is the Russian Orthodox Uspenski Cathedral. Another is a very large statue to Tsar Alexander erected in 1833 by the harbour with the Two-headed Russian eagle on top.

 

SinceInand is not yet a member of NATO, there is now fear in the country that Putin's thugs could consider invading through its 1,340 kms border. Until recently polls showed that Finns accepted their close relation with their large neighbour. Now polls have turned turtle and most Finns want the ountry to join NATO. What will be Putin's reaction?

 

Two of the three Baltic States border Russia. Lithuania borders Putin's ally, Belarus. Their borders are much shorter than Finland's and their proximity to one of Putin's first postings as mayor of St. Petersburg - the city where he was born - very close. The distance from St. Petersburg to the stonian border is little more than 100 kms. To its capital Tallinn is 338 kms. I was in Tallinn 9 years ago and it is a stunningly beautiful city. A few bombs would wipe out its beautiful centre. As in Ukraine, a quarter of Estonians still use Russian as their first language. The difference is that the Baltic States are now part of NATO.

 

Some other NATO members are already funnelling arms to all four countries. If Putin wins in Ukraine, hopefully NATO will be much more on the ball than it was with Ukraine.

Edited May 12, 2022 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

Putin has no reason to be concerned about the number of bordering nations now participate in NATO.  The borders are well defined, with no disputes about them,  and no nation in its sane mind would think to invade Russia or threaten it in any way.  IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.    Thanks to its nuclear arsenal, Russia does not need to fear other nations, but precisely for its military superiority, Russia thinks that it can bully other countries with impunity.

[singalion]

On 5/12/2022 at 12:19 PM, Steve5380 said:

Putin has no reason to be concerned about the number of bordering nations now participate in NATO.  The borders are well defined, with no disputes about them,  and no nation in its sane mind would think to invade Russia or threaten it in any way.  IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.    Thanks to its nuclear arsenal, Russia does not need to fear other nations, but precisely for its military superiority, Russia thinks that it can bully other countries with impunity.

 

Unfortunately, Steve you always post some items onto BW without much background checks.

 

Even Finland has an open but not discussed border dispute with Russia.

 

 

In 1812, western Karelia -- or "Old Finland," as it was called then -- was joined to the rest of Finland. Finland declared its independence on 17 December 1917 and proclaimed its neutrality.

The Tartu peace treaty with Soviet Russia in 1920 confirmed the borders of Finland -- in other words, Finnish rule over western or Finnish Karelia. In 1932, Finland and the Soviet Union signed a nonaggression pact guaranteeing the border set down in the Tartu treaty.

But under the August 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Finland was allocated to the Soviet sphere of influence. Later that year, the USSR invaded Finland with the aim of annexing part of its territory. Finland lost nearly 23,000 men in that so-called Winter War of 1939-40.

 

Due to the Cold war repercussions Finland never touched this issue with Russia.

 

Quote:

During Finnish President Tarja Halonen's visit to St. Petersburg in June 2000, Russian President Vladimir Putin said there were no outstanding territorial disputes between Finland and Russia, noting that the question of the status of Karelia "is closed and finally decided." Halonen responded that Russian-Finnish relations have improved to the point where even such contentious issues can be discussed publicly.

 

Russia annexed plenty of foreign land during the Molotov-Rippentrop Pact, that never were parts of Russia.

Even the Eastern Ukraine was once part of Poland and Slovakia.

Note that many countries signed "peace" treaties with Russia, while Russia had occupied these Eastern countries.

 

The issue is similar as the Japanese issue with the Kuril islands.

 

Also be informed that map "drawing" was not that precise during those days as they did not have satellites or other tools.

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 5/12/2022 at 12:19 PM, Steve5380 said:

Putin has no reason to be concerned about the number of bordering nations now participate in NATO.  The borders are well defined, with no disputes about them,  and no nation in its sane mind would think to invade Russia or threaten it in any way.  IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.    Thanks to its nuclear arsenal, Russia does not need to fear other nations, but precisely for its military superiority, Russia thinks that it can bully other countries with impunity.

 

If you look at the history period after the downfall of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia has used the same strategy with plenty of countries that intended to shift to the Western "hemisphere".

 

Georgia wanted to be Nato member, Russia invaded large parts of Georgia (which geographically) always had been Georgia. Moldova was thinking of uniting with Romania, Russia troubled the country in Transnistria and place their soldiers there. (Same historical background = Molotov -Rippentrop pact).

 

 

Russia initially tried to manipulate the Russian population in the Baltic states to act against these countries, but it wasn't successful in those 3 states. However, it caused multiple conflicts the years after the newly gained independence by these states.

 

Take Armenia - Azerbaijani, instead of promoting peace Russia just send their troops into the countries.

 

Take Ukraine in 2014...

 

 

[InBangkok]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:19 AM, Steve5380 said:

Putin has no reason to be concerned about the number of bordering nations now participate in NATO.  The borders are well defined, with no disputes about them,  and no nation in its sane mind would think to invade Russia or threaten it in any way.  IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

A short response that you agree with my post would have sufficed! No need whatever to repeat the essence of the point I made.

[singalion]

The article analyses the views of Russia on Ukraine...

 

 

LSE International History

“There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History

The notion that Ukraine is not a country, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of Russian leadership. Competing interpretations of history have turned into a key ingredient of the deepening dispute between Russia and the West and a subject that Putin in particular appears to feel unusually passionate about. In this article, Dr Björn Alexander Duben explores the question, is it historically accurate to claim has never truly been a nation or state in its own right?

 

For more than twenty years, Vladislav Surkov was a known quantity in Vladimir Putin’s Kremlin. Dubbed the ‘Grey Cardinal’ and the Kremlin’s main ideologist, Surkov is commonly regarded as the mastermind of Putin’s Ukraine policy which plunged Moscow into open conflict with the West. By late February 2020, however, he had apparently fallen from grace and was unexpectedly sacked from his position as personal advisor to the president. Surkov has been prone to making frank, off-the-cuff public remarks that stand in marked contrast to the omertà practiced by most of Putin’s inner circle, offering rare glimpses into what policymakers in the Kremlin appear to be thinking. True to form, within days of his dismissal he stirred up fresh controversy by publicly questioning the existence of Ukrainian statehood. In an interview published on 26 February, Surkov stated that “there is no Ukraine. There is Ukrainian-ness. That is, a specific disorder of the mind. An astonishing enthusiasm for ethnography, driven to the extreme.” Surkov went on to claim that Ukraine is “a muddle instead of a state. […] But there is no nation. There is only a brochure, ‘The Self-Styled Ukraine’, but there is no Ukraine.”

 

“Ukraine is not even a state”

 

Surkov is not the first Russian official to make such a claim. The notion that Ukraine is not a country in its own right, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of many in the Russian leadership. Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.

 

Such slogans and insinuations might be little more than a rhetorical smokescreen concealing a pursuit of sober, hard-nosed realpolitik. But there is much to suggest that these beliefs are in fact informing policymaking at the highest levels of power. What’s more, they appear to have rubbed off on other world leaders as well. In an autumn 2017 briefing, US President Donald Trump reportedly exclaimed that Ukraine “wasn’t a ‘real country,’ that it had always been a part of Russia”.

 

Statements like these from some of the world’s most powerful leaders illustrate that history has become a subject of enormous importance for both sides in the Russian-Ukrainian conflict. Historical arguments have been used to justify and rationalise Russia’s annexation of Crimea. From the moment unmarked troops seized the Peninsula in late February 2014, Russian officials have made any number of misleading claims about Crimea’s past and have greatly exaggerated the extent of its historic connections with Russia. But beyond the status of Crimea, disputes about the correct interpretation of the past have been at the centre of Russia’s policies towards Ukraine as a whole. More broadly, competing interpretations of history – particularly the Stalinist period – have turned into a key ingredient of the deepening dispute between Russia and the West and a subject that Putin in particular appears to feel unusually passionate about. Amid all the mythmaking about Ukraine’s past, a brief reality check is in order: Is it historically accurate to claim that Ukraine has never truly been a nation or a state in its own right?

 

Kievan Roots

 

Aside from its cultural proximity, Ukraine’s sentimental and spiritual appeal to many Russians derives from the fact that the Kievan Rus’ – a medieval state that came into existence in the 9^th century and was centred around present-day Kiev – is regarded as a joint ancestral homeland that laid the foundations for both modern Russia and Ukraine. But from the time of its foundation to its conquest by the Mongols in the 13^th century, the Rus’ was an increasingly fragmented federation of principalities. Its south-western territories, including Kiev, were conquered by Poland and Lithuania in the early 14^th century. For roughly four hundred years, these territories, encompassing most of present-day Ukraine, were formally ruled by Poland-Lithuania, which left a deep cultural imprint on them. During these four centuries, the Orthodox East Slavic population of these lands gradually developed an identity distinct from that of the East Slavs remaining in the territories under Mongol and later Muscovite rule. A distinct Ukrainian language had already begun to emerge in the dying days of the Kievan Rus’ (notwithstanding Vladimir Putin’s factually incorrect claim that “the first linguistic differences [between Ukrainians and Russians] appeared only around the 16^th century”). Following the incorporation of present-day Ukraine into Poland-Lithuania, the Ukrainian language evolved in relative isolation from the Russian language. At the same time, religious divisions developed within Eastern Orthodoxy. From the mid-15^th to the late 17^th centuries, the Orthodox Churches in Moscow and in Kiev developed as separate entities, initiating a division that eventually resurfaced in later schisms.

 

Most of what is now Ukraine was formally governed by Polish-Lithuanian nobility prior to the 18^th century, but these lands were predominantly inhabited by Orthodox East Slavs who began to form semi-autonomous hosts of peasant warriors – the Cossacks. Most of them felt a cultural affinity for Muscovite Russia but had no particular desire to be a part of the Muscovite state. In the 16^th through 18^th centuries, the Cossacks in present-day Ukraine began to form their own de facto statelets, the ‘Zaporizhian Sich’ and later the Cossack ‘Hetmanate’. They staged a major uprising against their Polish overlords in 1648. Six years later, the expanding Tsardom of Russia signed a treaty of alliance with the Zaporizhian Cossacks. Notwithstanding this temporary turn towards Moscow, the Cossacks also explored other options: In the Treaty of Hadiach with Poland in 1658, they were on the verge of becoming a fully-fledged constituent member of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Had this treaty been successfully implemented, it would likely have tied the Cossacks’ quasi-state firmly to its western neighbours for the foreseeable future.

 

The treaty failed, however, and the Cossacks remained divided in their loyalties. Internal disagreements about whether to side with Poland or Russia contributed to a series of civil wars among them in the late 1600s. In a foreshadowing of Ukraine’s present-day dilemma, the Cossacks shifted their allegiance more than once with the ultimate aim of gaining autonomy from both sides. In 1667, Poland-Lithuania had to cede to Moscow control of the territories east of and including Kiev. The Cossack statelet in the eastern territories gradually turned into a Russian vassal state, but its relationship with Russia was rife with conflict. Sporadic Cossack uprisings were now directed against the Tsars. In 1708, for instance, the Cossacks’ leader Ivan Mazepa allied himself with Sweden and fought against Russia in the Great Northern War. In 1775, the Zaporizhian Sich was razed to the ground by Russian forces, and the Cossacks’ institutions of self-governance were liquidated. Following the final Partitions of Poland in the 1790s, the Russian Empire absorbed the remainder of modern-day Ukraine (apart from its extreme west, which was annexed by Austria).

 

The territories of Ukraine remained a part of the Russian state for the next 120 years. Russia’s imperial authorities systematically persecuted expressions of Ukrainian culture and made continuous attempts to suppress the Ukrainian language. In spite of this, a distinct Ukrainian national consciousness emerged and consolidated in the course of the 19^th century, particularly among the elites and intelligentsia, who made various efforts to further cultivate the Ukrainian language. When the Russian Empire collapsed in the aftermath of the revolutions of 1917, the Ukrainians declared a state of their own. After several years of warfare and quasi-independence, however, Ukraine was once again partitioned between the nascent Soviet Union and newly independent Poland. From the early 1930s onwards, nationalist sentiments were rigorously suppressed in the Soviet parts of Ukraine, but they remained latent and gained further traction through the traumatic experience of the ‘Holodomor’, a disastrous famine brought about by Joseph Stalin’s agricultural policies in 1932-33 that killed between three and five million Ukrainians. Armed revolts against Soviet rule were staged during and after World War II and were centred on the western regions of Ukraine that had been annexed from Poland in 1939-40. It was only with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 that Ukraine gained lasting independent statehood of its own – but Ukrainian de facto political entities struggling for their autonomy or independence had existed long before that.

 

 

Redrawing Borders in the ‘Wild Fields’

 

Even among those who do not question Ukraine’s historic right to independent statehood, it is common to assume that its internationally recognised borders, particularly those with Russia, are in essence artificial. Besides the controversial case of Crimea, many Russians are convinced that the embattled south-eastern regions of Ukraine that have now become the epicentre of the deadly conflict between Kiev and Moscow should rightfully be considered a part of Russia that was accidentally ‘lost’ to Ukraine in the upheavals of the 20^th century. Vladimir Putin has routinely referred to these parts of Ukraine as ‘New Russia’ (‘Novorossiya’), an administrative name for these regions during the time when Ukraine was a part of the Tsarist empire. The message conveyed by using this term is that these territories are not historically connected to the remainder of Ukraine.

 

The precise south-eastern borders of historical Ukraine are indeed difficult to establish. In the days of the Kievan Rus’, control of what is now southern Ukraine was at best sporadic, and it never extended to the east, which was ruled by Turkic tribes. During Polish-Lithuanian rule, these territories became known as the ‘Wild Fields’ – a sparsely populated no-man’s-land that was constantly threatened by Tatar raids. By the 1600s, the Zaporizhian Cossacks were able to establish a modicum of control over these territories, and they also settled in some regions that extend far into present-day Russia. When the eastern parts of today’s Ukraine came under formal Russian control in the 17^th century, the Cossacks’ rule there remained largely autonomous. Substantial settlement of these vast territories did not begin until the early 19^th century, and their ethnic make-up remained very diverse – as reflected by the fact that it was neither Ukrainians nor Russians, but British industrialists, who founded Luhansk (1795) and Donetsk (1869), the two cities at the centre of the current separatist conflict.

 

The eastern borders of Ukraine were formally drawn in 1919-1924 as the boundaries of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (UkrSSR). Vladimir Putin made a reference to this in his March 18, 2014 address to the Russian parliament, when he claimed that “after the revolution, the Bolsheviks, for a number of reasons – may God judge them – added large sections of the historical South of Russia to the Republic of Ukraine. This was done with no consideration for the ethnic make-up of the population, and today these areas form the southeast of Ukraine.” Putin made similar claims on various other occasions. At a January 2016 speech he lamented that the Soviet Union’s internal borders had been “established arbitrarily, without much reason” and called the inclusion of the Donets Basin in the UkrSSR “pure nonsense”. As recently as December 2019, during his annual end-of-year press conference, Putin complained that, “when the Soviet Union was created, primordially Russian territories that never had anything to do with Ukraine (the entire Black Sea region and Russia’s western lands) were turned over to Ukraine”.

 

Putin’s statements (which he has reiterated on various occasions) are wrong on two counts: For one, the claim that present-day eastern or southern Ukraine should have been considered part of “the historical South of Russia” or “primordially Russian territories” in the 1920s seems preposterous, since there had been no substantial Russian presence in these territories at any time prior to the 19^th century. Secondly, Putin’s assertion that Ukraine’s south-eastern borders were established “with no consideration for the ethnic make-up of the population” is equally false. The first Soviet census in 1926, a few years after the eastern borders of the UkrSSR had been finalised, showed that in all territories of eastern Ukraine, including those that are now contested, ethnic Ukrainians still far outnumbered ethnic Russians. What ultimately changed this in the 1930s was the demographic devastation wrought by Stalin’s agricultural genocide, the ‘Holodomor’.

 

 

Conclusion

 

The frontlines of the frozen conflict between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists are criss-crossing the plains of the Donets Basin, but they are also running right through the region’s past. Russia’s incursions into Ukraine have enjoyed tremendous support at home and, in some quarters, abroad. Many have been slow to denounce them – or quick to embrace them – out of a conviction that the Kremlin has history on its side; that Ukraine has never been a ‘real’ country in its own right and that its south-eastern territories in particular are primordial Russian lands. Russia’s political top brass, including Vladimir Putin himself, appear to subscribe to this belief as well, and by all appearances it has directly informed their policy towards Ukraine. But as much as these assumptions may resonate with ordinary Russians, as well as some foreign leaders, a glance into Ukrainian history reveals that they are based on a dangerously distorted reading of the past. Ultimately, by redrawing borders and rewriting history the Kremlin is unlikely to have done itself a favour. Through its intervention in Ukraine it has galvanised most Ukrainians in their aversion to Russia and has thereby done a great deal to demarcate the perceived differences between Ukrainians and Russians more clearly than ever before.

 

Dr Björn Alexander Düben is an Assistant Professor at the School of International and Public Affairs, Jilin University and has previously taught International Relations and Security Studies at LSE and King’s College London. He holds a PhD in International Relations from the LSE and graduate degrees from the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/

 

 

[Guest Nuke]

Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden DARE TO DEFY history and then send one as free gift to America for causing world inflation. 

[singalion]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:09 PM, Guest Nuke said:

Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden DARE TO DEFY history and then send one as free gift to America for causing world inflation. 

 

What has Sweden to do with it?

 

Sweden choose neutrality on their own and not under some pressure from Russia like Finland.

 

Finland after the war was scared that Russia will invade the country again, if it moves to Nato. That is the only reason why Finland never asked to be a Nato member. Finland just intended to stay out of trouble with Russia...

 

http://countrystudies.us/finland/137.htm

 

 

But times have changed. It was Russia that broke the agreement.

[Steve5380]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:51 AM, singalion said:

 

Conclusion

 

The frontlines of the frozen conflict between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists are criss-crossing the plains of the Donets Basin, but they are also running right through the region’s past. Russia’s incursions into Ukraine have enjoyed tremendous support at home and, in some quarters, abroad. Many have been slow to denounce them – or quick to embrace them – out of a conviction that the Kremlin has history on its side; that Ukraine has never been a ‘real’ country in its own right and that its south-eastern territories in particular are primordial Russian lands. Russia’s political top brass, including Vladimir Putin himself, appear to subscribe to this belief as well, and by all appearances it has directly informed their policy towards Ukraine. But as much as these assumptions may resonate with ordinary Russians, as well as some foreign leaders, a glance into Ukrainian history reveals that they are based on a dangerously distorted reading of the past. Ultimately, by redrawing borders and rewriting history the Kremlin is unlikely to have done itself a favour. Through its intervention in Ukraine it has galvanised most Ukrainians in their aversion to Russia and has thereby done a great deal to demarcate the perceived differences between Ukrainians and Russians more clearly than ever before.

 

 

There are so many similarities between the Russia-Ukraine and the PRC-Taiwan cases.  All based on the same ideology Israel applies to steal land from the Palestinians:  that the God of Israel gave the land to the Israelites.    But we know that no country has any papers, deeds, that prove their ownership of their land acquired from the Creator.

[Steve5380]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:09 AM, Guest Nuke said:

Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden DARE TO DEFY history and then send one as free gift to America for causing world inflation. 

 

Yes, Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden dare to do it.  He should get one of his nuclear warheads in his office, and then use it as his chair.

[InBangkok]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:31 PM, singalion said:

What has Sweden to do with it?

 

... But times have changed. It was Russia that broke the agreement.

@Steve5380's lack of knowledge of history other than small nuggets of information he picks up from time to time from wikipedia comes to the fore again!

 

On 5/13/2022 at 1:38 AM, Steve5380 said:

Yes, Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden dare to do it.  He should get one of his nuclear warheads in his office, and then use it as his chair.

In such a serious discussion on such a serious issue where a country has been invaded. tens of thousands of people are dying, entire cities flattened and the world as a whole is not only being affected now but will be so in a much more serious manner in the near future, such childish and idiotic suggestions are totally out of place. You should be ashamed.

Edited May 13, 2022 by InBangkok

[Guest Saint Putin]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:38 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, Putin should use nuke if Finland and Sweden dare to do it.  He should get one of his nuclear warheads in his office, and then use it as his chair.

If you think Putin is a criminal, you ain't seen anything yet.  Putin is very lenient with Ukraine and Europe.  If Russia president is Kim Jong Um, Ukraine will be flattened overnight, followed by Finland, Sweden and then Europe.  He won't even supply a single drop of oil and gas to any of this country.  Fortunately, Europe is dealing with a more mellow Putin who still provide gas and oil to keep European citizens cozy and toasty. 

[singalion]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:50 PM, Guest Saint Putin said:

If you think Putin is a criminal, you ain't seen anything yet.  Putin is very lenient with Ukraine and Europe.  If Russia president is Kim Jong Um, Ukraine will be flattened overnight, followed by Finland, Sweden and then Europe.  He won't even supply a single drop of oil and gas to any of this country.  Fortunately, Europe is dealing with a more mellow Putin who still provide gas and oil to keep European citizens cozy and toasty. 

 

Seriously? Everyone in Europe is preparing for Russia to cut the oil and gas supply on its own.

Russia already cut the supply to Poland and Bulgaria...

 

I think you need to update yourself...

 

And keep Kim Jong Un out of the show, just yesterday he sat on his desk and crying for help as his country cannot get the Covid under control... Kim flattens his own country...

[Steve5380]

On 5/12/2022 at 9:51 PM, InBangkok said:

 

In such a serious discussion on such a serious issue where a country has been invaded. tens of thousands of people are dying, entire cities flattened and the world as a whole is not only being affected now but will be so in a much more serious manner in the near future, such childish and idiotic suggestions are totally out of place. You should be ashamed.

 

 

In this serious discussion, like the one about Taiwan,  someone is doing some childish and idiotic trolling after a member who had casually mentioned that he ate chocolate mousse in Taipei. You should be ashamed of your disrespect for the serious, your childishness and your malevolence.

[InBangkok]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:17 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

In this serious discussion, like the one about Taiwan,  someone is doing some childish and idiotic trolling after a member who had casually mentioned that he ate chocolate mousse in Taipei. You should be ashamed of your disrespect for the serious, your childishness and your malevolence.

You are just so typical @Steve5380. I put it down to age. Yes, you casually mentioned eating a chocolate mousse. But you omit to mention that you enjoyed it whilst watching the view from the observation deck in Taipei 101. That is the point at issue. You have told us you do not go to expensive restaurants. You even wrote recently that you do not go to restaurants. But the only way to get a "delicious" chocolate mousse at the observation deck in Taipei 101 when you were there was to pay what for you would be a great deal of cash for a full meal. And only Chinese restaurants were located at that level and chocolate mousse would not be on a dessert menu in Taipei. So a degree of accuracy in your comments would be welcome. I am ashamed of nothing I have written here.

 

You will recall that I have asked this question several times. Recently you swore at me. I do not descend to that level.

Edited May 13, 2022 by InBangkok

[Steve5380]

On 5/13/2022 at 9:29 AM, InBangkok said:

 

You will recall that I have asked this question several times. Recently you swore at me. I do not descend to that level.

 

 

To swear is to angrily insult someone.  I am not angry at you.   I merely gave you a kind recommendation about what you could do to avoid all these senseless bickering.  I already told you that I will not answer your questions, since I have no obligation to do so and your questions are an improper snooping into my life.  Take care, and care about your own life.

[InBangkok]

On 5/14/2022 at 1:32 AM, Steve5380 said:

To swear is to angrily insult someone.  I am not angry at you.

But you perfectly happily swore at me! And to suggest - as you did - that you merely wrote one letter F is such  a pathetic excuse that you also ended up insulting the intelligence of every single reader.

[Steve5380]

On 5/14/2022 at 7:18 AM, InBangkok said:

But you perfectly happily swore at me! And to suggest - as you did - that you merely wrote one letter F is such  a pathetic excuse that you also ended up insulting the intelligence of every single reader.

 

The letter F is a sign of my proper civility.  You should appreciate this.

[Why?]

Russia is a complete dissapointment.  Putin needs to answer why he isn't advancing at lightning speed.  As for Finland seeking to join NATO,  I am not going to approve it.  I am beginning to shun Social Media News concerning Ukraine war, unless Putin has something new to bring to the table.   

[Steve5380]

On 5/14/2022 at 10:29 AM, Why? said:

Russia is a complete dissapointment.  Putin needs to answer why he isn't advancing at lightning speed.  As for Finland seeking to join NATO,  I am not going to approve it.  I am beginning to shun Social Media News concerning Ukraine war, unless Putin has something new to bring to the table.   

 

I guess Finland will have to wait until you give your approval.

[Why?]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:20 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

I guess Finland will have to wait until you give your approval.

Well, no harm waiting for as long as the sun is burning.   I am not going to lie low and say nothing about the matter, if Finland decided to irresponsibly escalate the situation in Europe and cause further inflation to inflict significant damage on my livelihood.  I have every right to disapprove of Finland’s destructive actions as if it has not seen enough of Ukraine's ruin for trying to get under NATO’s dirty pants.   Don’t these people know what decency is, even when America doesn't?

[Steve5380]

On 5/14/2022 at 7:40 PM, Why? said:

Well, no harm waiting for as long as the sun is burning.   I am not going to lie low and say nothing about the matter, if Finland decided to irresponsibly escalate the situation in Europe and cause further inflation to inflict significant damage on my livelihood.  I have every right to disapprove of Finland’s destructive actions as if it has not seen enough of Ukraine's ruin for trying to get under NATO’s dirty pants.   Don’t these people know what decency is, even when America doesn't?

 

Don't wait to get a sunburn.  It is hot healthy.

 

Of course you are right.  It is all NATO's fault, and America's indecency.   Such a big injustice to Putin!  They don't let him kill Ukrainians at the lightning speed he wants to do it.

 

Now, good boy,  calm down and take your medicine.

.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Steve5380

[Guest Guest]

By admission of Biden himself ..... "Before Russia attacked, we made sure Russia had javelins and other weapons to strengthen its defences, so that Ukraine was ready for whatever happened."

 

 

[sgmaven]

I wonder why people use "The Sun" as a source of their information about the war, when it is clearly not a reputable news source. To contextualise, it is worse than quoting 新明日報 as your news source. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I would trust 新明日報 more than The Sun...

[Steve5380]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:07 PM, Guest Guest said:

By admission of Biden himself ..... "Before Russia attacked, we made sure Russia had javelins and other weapons to strengthen its defences, so that Ukraine was ready for whatever happened."

 

 

Why in Heavens you seek to exploit any opportunity to chastise Biden for any involuntary mistakes he makes in the extensive important talks he has to provide?  Blame it to his age?  Maybe a little, but not too much. He is handling admirably his functions as President of the United States of America.

 

EVERY person is entitled to make involuntary mistakes that are obvious and inconsequential.  But...  but you think that YOU don't ever make mistakes?   Don't be so sure.  Since you are not much more than an insignificant individual whose mistakes no one will ever hear,  you have no opportunity to test yourself.

[Guest Guest]

On 5/16/2022 at 10:32 PM, sgmaven said:

I wonder why people use "The Sun" as a source of their information about the war, when it is clearly not a reputable news source. To contextualise, it is worse than quoting 新明日報 as your news source. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I would trust 新明日報 more than The Sun...

 

How about Skynews Australia: https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/rita-panahi/arming-russia-biden-fumbles-in-speech-about-preparing-ukraine-for-attack/video/983c19140627bcb25aac0b44d9bafaf3

 

How about DailyNews Hungary: https://dailynewshungary.com/mistake-biden-said-hungarians-are-defending-themselves-against-russia/?

 

How about Islam Times https://www.islamtimes.org/en/news/992444/biden-says-us-gave-russia-javelin-missiles-hails-hungarian-defense-of-ukraine?

 

The list goes on, you know? 

[Guest Guest]

On 5/17/2022 at 4:23 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Why in Heavens you seek to exploit any opportunity to chastise Biden for any involuntary mistakes he makes in the extensive important talks he has to provide?  Blame it to his age?  Maybe a little, but not too much. He is handling admirably his functions as President of the United States of America.

 

EVERY person is entitled to make involuntary mistakes that are obvious and inconsequential.  But...  but you think that YOU don't ever make mistakes?   Don't be so sure.  Since you are not much more than an insignificant individual whose mistakes no one will ever hear,  you have no opportunity to test yourself.

 

You asking "Why in Heavens you seek to exploit any opportunity to chastise Biden for any involuntary mistakes he makes"  when you exploit any opportunity to chastise Donald Trump for any current wrong things happening in USA? 

 

For heaven's sake, Biden is the President of the United States! Yes, I am not much more than an insignificant individual whose mistakes no one will ever hear, and this actually makes those mistakes from the President of the United States echoed throughout the entire planet much more loudly. 

 

Biden is senile. He should be impeached immediately, instead of remaining on stage to make the entire USA a global mockery.

[Steve5380]

On 5/16/2022 at 8:55 PM, Guest Guest said:

 

You asking "Why in Heavens you seek to exploit any opportunity to chastise Biden for any involuntary mistakes he makes"  when you exploit any opportunity to chastise Donald Trump for any current wrong things happening in USA? 

 

For heaven's sake, Biden is the President of the United States! Yes, I am not much more than an insignificant individual whose mistakes no one will ever hear, and this actually makes those mistakes from the President of the United States echoed throughout the entire planet much more loudly. 

 

Biden is senile. He should be impeached immediately, instead of remaining on stage to make the entire USA a global mockery.

 

I don't seek to exploit ANY opportunity to chastise Donald Trump for ANY wrongs!!!  Good Heavens,  if I had to do this for ALL his wrongs,  this would bring down the BW server because of data overload.

 

Yes, we are both insignificant individuals, and our mistakes don't have practically any relevance.  But Biden is different, his mistakes could have enormous consequences.  But this makes an obvious mistake in a name so much more irrelevant. His important decisions receive much more attention than just a name in a phrase, he has a big staff of advisers, fact checkers, etc.  If you think that he is "senile",  you have no idea of the extent of dementia people can reach.  Today at nearly 80 his mind is perfectly lucid, so that it seems that he could continue for another term without problems.  Not like Ronald Reagan who started to lose it in his second term with advancing Alzheimer's.