Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[sgmaven]

 

Interesting analysis... Not sure if I agree though

[Why?]

On 7/18/2022 at 4:39 PM, sgmaven said:

 

Interesting analysis... Not sure if I agree though

What the hell is this guy on about? He is as screwed up as a Ukrainian refugee if he still believes that America is an angel to the globe. The United States hasn't exactly learned anything from the European Crisis at all, and the giant white elephant is running amok from Asia to the Middle East, stirring up shit from China to Iran, and creating bogeymen in the hope of constructing more NATO-lite institutions.  It will take more than a thousand year to forgive what America did to the world today. 

[singalion]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:18 PM, Why? said:

What the hell is this guy on about? He is as screwed up as a Ukrainian refugee if he still believes that America is an angel to the globe. The United States hasn't exactly learned anything from the European Crisis at all, and the giant white elephant is running amok from Asia to the Middle East, stirring up shit from China to Iran, and creating bogeymen in the hope of constructing more NATO-lite institutions.  It will take more than a thousand year to forgive what America did to the world today. 

 

Once again you are confusing or obfuscating what party is the aggressor and what country had been attacked and invaded by a foreign military force. 

 

 

[Why?]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:21 AM, singalion said:

 

Once again you are confusing or obfuscating what party is the aggressor and what country had been attacked and invaded by a foreign military force. 

 

 

WAR, for several decades, America has been at the top of the list and it doesn't comply with boundaries of the 4 oceans.  As a result of American-instigated or -led war and sanctions, millions of people died, or were forced to flee their homes all over the world. The West does not treasure human value. If it think its own value is exemplary for the world to follow, it exhibits imperialist tendencies, self-protectionism, double standards, and entitlement. America's present internal problems are a good illustration of Karma at work.  Be it Democratic and Republican,  the nation lacks any good leaders. Let's hope all the states start internal civil war and each declare independence like the fall of old soviet union.  Only then can it fully comprehend the value of reunification and uphold "the one-America policy", without interference from other nations trying to split it apart. Its own meddlesome behaviour along the strait of Taiwan is quite telling.  America doesn't need friend, it loves puppy like Europe countries, Australia and Japanese Shiba Inu, all of whom at America's beck and call to be pleased and entertained.  Fortunately for Middle East, South America, North Africa and many parts of Asia, people no longer loves America as much and as a result began to see light at the end of the tunnel outside Ukraine crisis.

 

As for India, which I purposefully omitted. I can't say anything positive about it either. The nation is too flirty on world stage and behaved like everyone mistress without much contributions.  I ain't going to like it.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Why?

[sgmaven]

The problem comes when another country starts threatening you, or claiming some of your territory as theirs. If you are a small country with a small defence force, you naturally will look for allies as a deterrent. While non-alignment can look good in principle, it may not help you when push comes to shove. The Ukraine is not really a small country by any means, with a population of more than 40 million. The country tried very hard to pursue a neutral stance, treading the thin line between Russia and the West. It did not join NATO, so as to appease Russia. What did it earn them? The annexation of the Crimea (because it thought of closer trade ties with the EU) in 2014, and then a full-on invasion in 2022.

 

So, if you are a small country, do you then surrender your sovereignty to a "big brother", and let that "big brother" dictate what you can or cannot do? Given that situation, would you rather align with Russia or the US?

 

Yes, in the end, the Ukrainians are being played by all parties, but I would rather cast my lot with the West than Russia, if I were Ukrainian.

[Why?]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:16 AM, sgmaven said:

The country tried very hard to pursue a neutral stance, treading the thin line between Russia and the West. It did not join NATO, so as to appease Russia. What did it earn them? The annexation of the Crimea (because it thought of closer trade ties with the EU) in 2014, and then a full-on invasion in 2022.

 

If you are not very PRO-AMERICAN, you don't need to TRY.   Ukraine's issues go beyond reluctance to appease Russia; there have been conflicts along its own eastern internal border with its own inhabitants for decades.

Their pro-Russia president was being forced to resign (rumored America's dirty tricks at work), and the current leader was putting forward the idea of joining NATO. 

 

The Russia annexation of Crimea was provoked, because American giant corporations wished to construct infrastructure there that endangered Russia's survival to export gas and oil, or something to that effect, at least that's how I think.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Why?

[singalion]

On 7/20/2022 at 9:57 AM, Why? said:

WAR, for several decades, America has been at the top of the list and it doesn't comply with boundaries of the 4 oceans.  As a result of American-instigated or -led war and sanctions, millions of people died, or were forced to flee their homes all over the world. The West does not treasure human value. If it think its own value is exemplary for the world to follow, it exhibits imperialist tendencies, self-protectionism, double standards, and entitlement. America's present internal problems are a good illustration of Karma at work.  Be it Democratic and Republican,  the nation lacks any good leaders. Let's hope all the states start internal civil war and each declare independence like the fall of old soviet union.  Only then can it fully comprehend the value of reunification and uphold "the one-America policy", without interference from other nations trying to split it apart. Its own meddlesome behaviour along the strait of Taiwan is quite telling.  America doesn't need friend, it loves puppy like Europe countries, Australia and Japanese Shiba Inu, all of whom at America's beck and call to be pleased and entertained.  Fortunately for Middle East, South America, North Africa and many parts of Asia, people no longer loves America as much and as a result began to see light at the end of the tunnel outside Ukraine crisis.

 

As for India, which I purposefully omitted. I can't say anything positive about it either. The nation is too flirty on world stage and behaved like everyone mistress without much contributions.  I ain't going to like it.

 

There is no point on Ukraine in your post. 

 

I spoke about US interference myself some months back...

 

My point was on the Ukraine:

Once again you are confusing or obfuscating what party is the aggressor in the current Ukraine war and what country had been attacked and invaded by a foreign military force. 

 

I noted your various attempts to exonerate and whitewash Russia in the conflict. 

 

Note this thread is about the Ukraine war and not about US's potentially aggessive involvement in other countries in the past...

 

 

[singalion]

On 7/20/2022 at 9:57 AM, Why? said:

WAR, for several decades, America has been at the top of the list and it doesn't comply with boundaries of the 4 oceans.  As a result of American-instigated or -led war and sanctions, millions of people died, or were forced to flee their homes all over the world. The West does not treasure human value. If it think its own value is exemplary for the world to follow, it exhibits imperialist tendencies, self-protectionism, double standards, and entitlement. America's present internal problems are a good illustration of Karma at work.  Be it Democratic and Republican,  the nation lacks any good leaders. Let's hope all the states start internal civil war and each declare independence like the fall of old soviet union.  Only then can it fully comprehend the value of reunification and uphold "the one-America policy", without interference from other nations trying to split it apart. Its own meddlesome behaviour along the strait of Taiwan is quite telling.  America doesn't need friend, it loves puppy like Europe countries, Australia and Japanese Shiba Inu, all of whom at America's beck and call to be pleased and entertained.  Fortunately for Middle East, South America, North Africa and many parts of Asia, people no longer loves America as much and as a result began to see light at the end of the tunnel outside Ukraine crisis.

 

As for India, which I purposefully omitted. I can't say anything positive about it either. The nation is too flirty on world stage and behaved like everyone mistress without much contributions.  I ain't going to like it.

 

Please list us any piece of land that the US has annexed in the past 100 years and called it US property?

 

It seems you don't really understand the inherent issues surounding the Ukraine war...

 

 

[singalion]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, Why? said:

If you are not very PRO-AMERICAN, you don't need to TRY.   Ukraine's issues go beyond reluctance to appease Russia; there have been conflicts along its own eastern internal border with its own inhabitants for decades.

Their pro-Russia president was being forced to resign (rumored America's dirty tricks at work), and the current leader was putting forward the idea of joining NATO. 

 

The Russia annexation of Crimea was provoked, because American giant corporations wished to construct infrastructure there that endangered Russia's survival to export gas and oil, or something to that effect, at least that's how I think.

 

The starting point of your post is already that you deny the independence of the Ukraine. 

 

What involvement has a foreign country what government an independent other country has or whether the people wish a government to resign?

 

Any independent country can ask any foreign investor to explore investments. 

 

Does Russia interfere with the Singapore government and annexes Jurong island when Exxon builds a chemical plant or oil rafinery there?

 

Your post promotes interference of world powers into the decisions of independent countries if they object to investments decided by the other country's goverments. 

 

Has the US invaded Sri Lanka when the government permitted China to invest into a new harbour at Colombo?

 

What you are promoting is that pretended world powers have "spheres of interest" on independent countries and any alleged violation may permit an invasion by military force against the other country. 

 

Either we respect the independence of countries or not. 

 

 

[Why?]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:45 AM, singalion said:

Note this thread is about the Ukraine war and not about US's potentially aggessive involvement in other countries in the past...

 

 

You greatly overestimated Ukraine's intelligence and bravery, to prod Russia in the stomach, unless a more powerful person is working behind the scenes to exert influence and fool Ukrainians into believing they could win a losing war Looking at Ukraine in isolation, from other factors, is comparable to trying to treat cancer without first determining its root cause. 

 

*Stuffing my smelly socks into your mouth*.  

[singalion]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:56 PM, Why? said:

You greatly overestimated Ukraine's intelligence and bravery, to prod Russia in the stomach, unless a more powerful person is working behind the scenes to exert influence and fool Ukrainians into believing they could win a losing war Looking at Ukraine in isolation, from other factors, is comparable to trying to treat cancer without first determining its root cause. 

 

*Stuffing my smelly socks into your mouth*.  

 

This is more distracting or plastering some personal opinions into the thread...

 

I noted that you did not cover any single question I raised.

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, Why? said:

The Russia annexation of Crimea was provoked, because American giant corporations wished to construct infrastructure there that endangered Russia's survival to export gas and oil, or something to that effect, at least that's how I think.

Does the construction of infrastructure by giant corporations that may threaten your export of materials warrant an invasion of another country? Note that these "giant corporations" are business entities, and not government-linked entities in the first place.

 

If you frame it that way, it would justify the start of lots of wars in Asia, since the Chinese "Belt-and-Road" initiative is building infrastructure that would impact the supply lines for countries not involved in that initiative. Does India then have the right to annex parts of Pakistan then?

 

I think you would have to agree that this makes your argument untenable. And that is when the Chinese "Belt-and-Road" initiative is government-led, and not even a purely commercial arrangement!

[sgmaven]

The Ukraine before the Russian invasion was very much a split country, with the Eastern half more Russian-leaning, and the Western half, looking to the West. What the invasion has accomplished is to convince the Eastern half of the futility in supporting Russia. The Eastern half of the Ukraine, including the Donbas, has been all but decimated by Russian artillery bombardment. Even if Russia succeeds in taking the whole of the Donbas, it would have to invest billions to rebuild infrastructure, something needed by the rest of Russia. Do you think that Russia will really rebuild the Donbas? Or leave it in ruins, totally incapable of posing any threat to the Kremlin?

 

Meanwhile, you can take territory/land, but it is very difficult to change the mindset of the people who live there. Many Ukrainians who live in Eastern Ukraine are now solidly anti-Russian. But I suppose, if Russia manages to hold on to the Donbas, they could send in millions of their own people to "dilute" and change the attitudes, much like how China practices sinification of Xinjiang and Tibet.

 

Just because you may not like the US very much, does not make Russia correct in any way. Russia was the one who invaded the independent, sovereign nation of Ukraine! Are you saying that any country who "feels" that their economic prosperity is threatened, has the right to invade another country? What rubbish!

[singalion]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, Why? said:

The Russia annexation of Crimea was provoked, because American giant corporations wished to construct infrastructure there that endangered Russia's survival to export gas and oil, or something to that effect, at least that's how I think.

 

this is already not correct as North Stream 2 would have had the impact to cut off the total gas supply through the Ukraine with the provided planned capacity. From that point anything on Crimea was no longer relevant.

 

 

[Why?]

I am aware that this subject is stale, but a recent development makes it worthwhile to bring it up once more.
Zelenskky began to grow weary of the West.  Now, China was all he desired.  Even though I used to despise him, by this point I was starting to warm up to him.  He suddenly realizes that America is taking advantage of him and that the West has inflamed China over Taiwan. Zelenskky would avoid the war from the Russia if he has witnesse the China/Taiwan tension earlier..  He is now isolated and yelling into space and brought tears into my eyes.  His last remaining alternative is China, a new super power never been seen in centuries.

 

I would like to send him a plushy Panda to remind him that Ukraine will always be in China's heart, despite America being a hurdle.   But now.... China has to handle Taiwan first, because of the mess created by Pelosi in that island. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Why?

[singalion]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:45 PM, Why? said:

I am aware that this subject is stale, but a recent development makes it worthwhile to bring it up once more.
Zelenskky began to grow weary of the West.  Now, China was all he desired.  Even though I used to despise him, by this point I was starting to warm up to him.  He suddenly realizes that America is taking advantage of him and that the West has inflamed China over Taiwan. Zelenskky would avoid the war from the Russia if he has witnesse the China/Taiwan tension earlier..  He is now isolated and yelling into space and brought tears into my eyes.  His last remaining alternative is China, a new super power never been seen in centuries.

 

I would like to send him a plushy Panda to remind him that Ukraine will always be in China's heart, despite America being a hurdle.   But now.... China has to handle Taiwan first, because of the mess created by Pelosi in that island. 

 

But then what benefits did the Ukraine get from China???

 

Some nice talk?

 

Anything else??

 

[Why?]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:56 PM, singalion said:

 

But then what benefits did the Ukraine get from China???

 

Some nice talk?

 

Anything else??

 

Economic stability will be achieved in Ukraine thanks to one-belt, one-road policy of China. 
Its reconstructed infrastructure will be twice as glitzy and twice as efficient as its current system.
In collaboration with China, it will also have a world-class hospital, airport, ship-port, and transport port.
Its citizens will benefit from inexpensive Chinese imports.  Then, through a well-built China route, tourists will flow into Ukraine, bringing in billions of dollars in tourism as a result and Ukraine see the need to distant NATO, the dickless , warmongering institution.  Only then will Zelenskky's ideal come true, and its inhabitants will celebrate Chinese help.
To put the cherry on top, China will donate two cuddly pandas to the Ukrainian zoo as a symbol of their close friendship.

 

The above is only possible if Ukraine, choose China over America.   Not very complicated.

[sgmaven]

More likely that China will cause Ukraine more trouble by luring Ukraine into a debt trap. Then, taking over control of strategic infrastructural assets when Ukraine is unable to pay the exorbitant interest...

[Steve5380]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:45 AM, Why? said:

I am aware that this subject is stale, but a recent development makes it worthwhile to bring it up once more.
Zelenskky began to grow weary of the West.  Now, China was all he desired.  Even though I used to despise him, by this point I was starting to warm up to him.  He suddenly realizes that America is taking advantage of him and that the West has inflamed China over Taiwan. Zelenskky would avoid the war from the Russia if he has witnesse the China/Taiwan tension earlier..  He is now isolated and yelling into space and brought tears into my eyes.  His last remaining alternative is China, a new super power never been seen in centuries.

 

I would like to send him a plushy Panda to remind him that Ukraine will always be in China's heart, despite America being a hurdle.   But now.... China has to handle Taiwan first, because of the mess created by Pelosi in that island. 

 

LOL!  It can be entertaining to read your fairy tales,  but this topic is more suited for a serious conversation.

 

The bigger a super power becomes,  the more noise it makes when it crashes.

[Guest wahahahaha]

I already heard America crashing into pieces, just a little punch from China.

[singalion]

On 8/10/2022 at 10:58 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

LOL!  It can be entertaining to read your fairy tales,  but this topic is more suited for a serious conversation.

 

The bigger a super power becomes,  the more noise it makes when it crashes.

 

On 8/10/2022 at 12:02 PM, Guest wahahahaha said:

I already heard America crashing into pieces, just a little punch from China.

 

 

I assume they meant the Mar El Lago Trump strip search some days ago...

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:02 PM, Guest wahahahaha said:

I already heard America crashing into pieces, just a little punch from China.

 

I haven't heard of any punch of China to America.

 

Instead, I witnessed the other day the vicious punch China gave a little old lady, a 82 year old grandmother, who made a nice and peaceful visit to Taiwan with a strong message of friendship to the nice people in this country.

[Steve5380]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:03 PM, singalion said:

 

 

 

I assume they meant the Mar El Lago Trump strip search some days ago...

 

 

 

Well...  a famous organization paid an unannounced visit to mar-a-lago, and didn't give time for the visited to put on any cover over its intimate and sensitive parts.   At least they should have given a 24h anticipated notice to give time for the visited to burn, shred, flush down the toilet and swallow all the sensitive material.  It seems that this organization has a lot of experience.

[Guest Viciously Gross American]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:59 AM, Steve5380 said:

Instead, I witnessed the other day the vicious punch China gave a little old lady, a 82 year old grandmother, who made a nice and peaceful visit to Taiwan with a strong message of friendship to the nice people in this country.

The 82-year-old piece of disgusting garbage is abhorrent beyond belief for spreading slander against other peaceful Asian nations with her foul orifice and malicious aim. You and her must be of like mind, stinking beyond measure.

[Steve5380]

On 8/10/2022 at 7:33 PM, Guest Viciously Gross American said:

The 82-year-old piece of disgusting garbage is abhorrent beyond belief for spreading slander against other peaceful Asian nations with her foul orifice and malicious aim. You and her must be of like mind, stinking beyond measure.

 

It is very possible that we nice humans have a natural smell that is perceived as "disgusting garbage" by the cockroaches. I might have to apologize for this to you.    All I can say is that it is not my fault, but the doing of the Creator of humans.

[Guest hmmm....]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:52 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

It is very possible that we nice humans have a natural smell that is perceived as "disgusting garbage" by the cockroaches. I might have to apologize for this to you.    All I can say is that it is not my fault, but the doing of the Creator of humans.

You are echoing Donald Trump when you say, "America, bow to the creator and no one." Are you and Donald Trump both twin brother separated by World Wars I and II? Fear not; World War Three will bring the cockroach family closer together again. 

[Steve5380]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:05 PM, Guest hmmm.... said:

You are echoing Donald Trump when you say, "America, bow to the creator and no one." Are you and Donald Trump both twin brother separated by World Wars I and II? Fear not; World War Three will bring the cockroach family closer together again. 

 

When and where did Trump say that?   All he has always said is:  America, bow to Donald Trump.

[Guest A Non-American. Thank God!]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:25 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

When and where did Trump say that?   All he has always said is:  America, bow to Donald Trump.

It seems that foreigners are more familiar with your president and former presidents' words, thinking and action, more than Americans are. It demonstrates how ignorant Americans are.

[Steve5380]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:55 PM, Guest A Non-American. Thank God! said:

It seems that foreigners are more familiar with your president and former presidents' words, thinking and action, more than Americans are. It demonstrates how ignorant Americans are.

 

Yes,  many Americans are so ignorant about mischief, lies, deceptions, cowardly, criminality, power grabbing.  

 

But you probably have a more intimate understanding of all these,  so you are more familiar with the state of mind of America's former president.

[Guest Mississippi Paddlefish]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:06 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes,  many Americans are so ignorant about mischief, lies, deceptions, cowardly, criminality, power grabbing.  

 

But you probably have a more intimate understanding of all these,  so you are more familiar with the state of mind of America's former president.

The Americans are ignorant of the shady  business dealings the son of the current president have had with Ukraine and China. 

[Steve5380]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:21 PM, Guest Mississippi Paddlefish said:

The Americans are ignorant of the shady  business dealings the son of the current president have had with Ukraine and China. 

 

It is a good sign of the democracy in America that the son of the governing president is being investigated for crimes. 

[sgmaven]

Can we get back to the topic on the Russian invasion of the Ukraine? Please leave the discussion on US politics to where it belongs, there is a separate thread on that.

 

Unfortunately, there are these "guests" who are full of vitriol and love to insult others who do not agree with their POV. Perhaps it only shows how immature they are...

[Why?]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:06 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes,  many Americans are so ignorant about mischief, lies, deceptions, cowardly, criminality, power grabbing.  

 

No offence. All Americans are born with it. 

The good news is that Xingjiang people have managed to stay away from becoming one.  We are grateful to Chinese President Xi for teaching the Uryghur people knowledge and ultimately helping many of them escape poverty.
China is therefore ready to deal with American resentment and disparaging remarks that characterize China as bullying and uncivilized because it does not satisfy the American standard of ignorance under the guise of democracy.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Why?

[sgmaven]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:04 PM, Why? said:

No offence. All Americans are born with it. 

The good news is that Xingjiang people have managed to stay away from becoming one.  We are grateful to Chinese President Xi for teaching the Uryghur people knowledge and ultimately helping many of them escape poverty.
China is therefore ready to deal with American resentment and disparaging remarks that characterize China as bullying and uncivilized because it does not satisfy the American standard of ignorance under the guise of democracy.

I wonder if the PRC pays you money to pretend that their cruelty towards the Uighur peoples is one of "education", rather than that of forced internment and torture...🙄

 

Have you even been in Xinjiang, and seen the camps for yourself?

[Why?]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:07 PM, sgmaven said:

I wonder if the PRC pays you money to pretend that their cruelty towards the Uighur peoples is one of "education", rather than that of forced internment and torture...🙄

 

Have you even been in Xinjiang, and seen the camps for yourself?

It's not a camp; it's a school. What is wrong calling it "camp" anyway?. America also has political camp, boot camps. student camp...etc.   Unless you're trying to equate it to a chamber or prison where hundreds of Afghans were tortured until they died during the western invasion of that country.  No one died in Xingjiang province, but I am aware that numerous innocent American children lost their lives to gunshot wounds in public areas like schools. Black Americans will tell you that American police are brutal and ruthless. Fortunately, China stays out of American internal politics otherwise it has every reason to shame America for trying to "teach" others to be perfect.  Gross!

[sgmaven]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:42 PM, Why? said:

No one died in Xingjiang province, but I am aware that numerous innocent American children lost their lives to gunshot wounds in public areas like schools.

What lies!

[Guest Try and see]

McDonald's to begin reopening Ukraine restaurants

 

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/mcdonalds-begin-reopening-ukraine-restaurants-2874646

[sgmaven]

I do wonder what kind of "school" @Why?went to, considering he thinks that the internment camps in Xinjiang are schools? Even the strictest of boarding schools allow their students to visit their families and allow their families to visit. This obviously is not the case with the "schools" in Xinjiang. Of course no one has died in Xingjiang province, since there is no Xingjiang. It is in Xinjiang, where the ethnic Uighurs are being rounded up and sent to these "re-education" camps, and have been tortured to submission.

 

If those camps are merely "schools" then why don't they allow visitors and journalists free access? Also, why are the students not allowed to speak to other people without "supervision"? Aren't all these clues that show that these establishments are not schools, but internment camps?

[singalion]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:54 AM, sgmaven said:

I do wonder what kind of "school" @Why?went to, considering he thinks that the internment camps in Xinjiang are schools? Even the strictest of boarding schools allow their students to visit their families and allow their families to visit. This obviously is not the case with the "schools" in Xinjiang. Of course no one has died in Xingjiang province, since there is no Xingjiang. It is in Xinjiang, where the ethnic Uighurs are being rounded up and sent to these "re-education" camps, and have been tortured to submission.

 

Why's school must have been Boy's Home!

 

 

[singalion]

Sabotage within Russia?

 

Fires and explosions reported at military targets in Russia and Crimea

A munitions depot blazed near Ukrainian border and explosions hit the occupied peninsula in latest apparent sabotage mission

 

Thu 18 Aug 2022

 

 

A still frame from a video shows fire and smoke billowing from a munitions depot near the village of Timonov, near the city of Belgorod in Russia and the border with Ukraine, on 18 August. Photograph: @steelmalikov/Telegram/AFP/Getty

Emma Graham-Harrison in Kyiv

Thu 18 Aug 2022 23.55 BSTLast modified on Fri 19 Aug 2022 00.14 BST

 

Fires and explosions have been reported at military targets inside Russia and Russian-occupied parts of Ukraine, in the latest of a string of apparent sabotage missions deep into Russian-held territory.

 

Two Russian villages were evacuated after a blaze at a munitions depot near the Ukrainian border in Belgorod province. “An ammunition depot caught fire near the village of Timonovo”, less than 50km from the border, regional governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said in a statement, adding that no casualties were reported.

 

At least four explosions hit near the major Belbek airbase, north of Sevastopol in the occupied Crimean peninsula. The pro-Russia governor of Sevastopol, Mikhail Razvozhayev, said: “There is no damage. No one was hurt.”

 

Air defences were also activated near Kerch, the city at the Crimean end of a bridge to mainland Russia, which is a strategically vital supply route that many in Ukraine would like to see destroyed. Local media said a Ukrainian drone was shot down.

 

The Ukrainian defence ministry put out a tongue-in-cheek tweet after footage of fires in Timonovo spread, with the brief message “smoking kills!”. Officials have previously joked that explosions and fires at military targets in occupied Crimea were caused by “careless smokers”.

 

⚡️#БНР. Детонирует склад БК русни#бавовна #хлопки pic.twitter.com/XodMXun4xe

— Белгород новости (БНР News) (@belgorodnewsbnr) August 18, 2022

 

 

The overnight incidents on Thursday came soon after devastating explosions at a major airbase and a munitions depot in Crimea. After those attacks, many Russians raced to leave the peninsula, with a record 38,000 cars crossing on Tuesday.

 

 

Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, said on Wednesday that panicking Russians have realised that Crimea is “not a place for them” and hinted more attacks could lie ahead.

 

He urged Ukrainians to stay away from enemy command posts and logistics bases. “Do not approach the military objects of the Russian army,” he said.

 

Crimea is a key hub for the Russian invasion and the UK Ministry of Defence said Russia’s military leaders were likely to be “increasingly concerned” about the surge of setbacks there, even if Moscow has dismissed them as local “sabotage”.

 

Six alleged Islamist extremists were detained on Wednesday, according to Crimea’s Moscow-appointed head, Sergey Aksyonov. It was not clear what relation – if any – those arrested had to the recent attacks.

 

 

[singalion]

 

 

 

‘I don’t see justice in this war’: Russian soldier exposes rot at core of Ukraine invasion

Wed 17 Aug 2022

 

 

 

Pavel Filatyev: ‘I simply can’t stay quiet any longer.’

Exclusive: Pavel Filatyev has fled his homeland after publishing a 141-page account detailing his experiences on the frontline

• ‘They turned us into savages’: extract from Pavel Filatyev’s account

Andrew Roth in Moscow and Pjotr Sauer

Wed 17 Aug 2022 17.37 BSTLast modified on Thu 18 Aug 2022 15.05 BST

 

 

 

Pavel Filatyev knew the consequences of what he was saying. The ex-paratrooper understood he was risking prison, that he would be called a traitor and would be shunned by his former comrades-in-arms. His own mother had urged him to flee Russia while he still could. He said it anyway.

 

“I don’t see justice in this war. I don’t see truth here,” he said over a tucked-away cafe table in the Moscow financial district. It was his first time sitting down in person with a journalist since returning from the war in Ukraine.

 

Pavel Filatyev. Photograph: Yegor Slizyak

“I am not afraid to fight in war. But I need to feel justice, to understand that what I’m doing is right. And I believe that this is all failing not only because the government has stolen everything, but because we, Russians, don’t feel that what we are doing is right.”

 

Two weeks ago, Filatyev went on to his VKontakte social media page and published a 141-page bombshell: a day-by-day description of how his paratrooper unit was sent to mainland Ukraine from Crimea, entered Kherson and captured the seaport, and dug in under heavy artillery fire for more than a month near Mykolaiv – and then how he eventually was wounded and evacuated from the conflict with an eye infection.

 

By then, he was convinced he had to expose the rot at the core of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. “We were sitting under artillery fire by Mykolaiv,” he said. “At that point I already thought that we’re just out here doing bullshit, what the fuck do we need this war for? And I really had this thought: ‘God, if I survive, then I’ll do everything that I can to stop this.’”

 

He spent 45 days writing his memoirs from the conflict, breaking an omerta under which even the word war has been banished in public. “I simply can’t stay quiet any longer, even though I know that I probably won’t change anything, and maybe I’ve acted foolishly to get myself in so much trouble,” says Filatyev, his fingers shaking from stress as he lit another cigarette.

 

His memoir, ZOV, is named for the tactical markings painted on Russian army vehicles that have been adopted as a pro-war symbol in Russia. Until now, there has been no more detailed, voluntary account from a Russian soldier participating in the invasion of Ukraine. Extracts were published in Russia’s independent press, while Filatyev appeared via video for a televised interview on TV Rain.

 

Russian soldiers on the amphibious infantry fighting vehicle BMP-2 move towards mainland Ukraine on the road near Armiansk, Crimea, 25 February. Photograph: EPA

 

“It’s very important that someone became the first to speak out,” said Vladimir Osechkin, the head of the human rights network Gulagu.net, who helped Filatyev leave Russia earlier this week. That also made Filatyev the first soldier known to have fled Russia due to opposition to the war. “And it’s opening a Pandora’s box.”

 

This week the Russian investigative site iStories, which Russia has banned from the country, has published a confession from another Russian soldier admitting on camera to shooting and killing a civilian resident in the Ukrainian city of Andriivka. Most people in the army are unhappy about what’s going on there

 

Filatyev, who served in the 56th Guards air assault regiment based in Crimea, described how his exhausted and poorly equipped unit stormed into mainland Ukraine behind a hail of rocket fire in late February, with little in terms of concrete logistics or objectives, and no idea why the war was taking place at all. “It took me weeks to understand there was no war on Russian territory at all, and that we had just attacked Ukraine,” he said.

 

At one point, Filatyev describes how the ravenous paratroopers, the elite of the Russian army, captured the Kherson seaport and immediately began grabbing “computers and whatever valuable goods we could find”. Then they ransacked the kitchens for food.

 

A civilian car ablaze following an alleged Russian bombing in the southern city of Mykolaiv in April. Photograph: Louai Barakat/Imageslive/Zuma Press Wire/Rex/Shutterstock

“Like savages, we ate everything there: oats, porridge, jam, honey, coffee … We didn’t give a damn about anything, we’d already been pushed to the limit. Most had spent a month in the fields with no hint of comfort, a shower or normal food.

“What a wild state you can drive people to by not giving any thought to the fact that they need to sleep, eat and wash,” he wrote. “Everything around gave us a vile feeling; like wretches we were just trying to survive.”

 

People shout at Russian soldiers during a rally against the occupation in Kherson on 7 March. Photograph: Olexandr Chornyi/AP

 

Filatyev took a deep drag from a cigarette as he recounted the story, nervously looking around for anyone watching him at close to midnight in a Moscow park, then tries to explain.

 

“I know it will sound savage to a foreign reader,” he said, describing a fellow soldier stealing a computer. “But [the soldier] knows that this is worth more than one of his salaries. And who knows if he’ll be alive tomorrow anyway. So he takes it. I’m not trying to justify what he’s done. But I think it’s important to say why people act like this, to understand how to stop them … What a person will do in these kinds of extreme situations.”

 

He railed at length against what he called the “degradation” of the army, including the use of dated kit and vehicles that left Russian soldiers exposed to Ukrainian counterattacks. The rifle he was given before the war was rusted and had a broken strap, he said.

“We were just an ideal target,” he wrote, describing travelling to Kherson on obsolete and unarmoured UAZ trucks that sometimes stood in place for 20 minutes. “It was unclear what the plan was – as always no one knew anything.”

 

Russian soldiers guard an area as a group of foreign journalists visit in Kherson on 20 May. Photograph: AP

 

Filatyev describes his unit, as the war dragged on, being pinned down in trenches for nearly a month near Mykolaiv under Ukrainian artillery fire. It was there that a shell blasted mud into his eye, leading to an infection that nearly blinded him.

 

As frustrations grew on the front, he wrote about reports of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in order to escape the front and collect 3 million roubles (£40,542) in compensation, as well as rumours of acts of mutilation against captured soldiers and corpses.

In the interview, he said he had not personally seen the acts of abuse carried out during the war. But he described a culture of anger and resentment in the army that tears down the facade of total support for the war portrayed in Russian propaganda.

“Most people in the army are unhappy about what’s going on there, they’re unhappy about the government and their commanders, they’re unhappy with Putin and his politics, they’re unhappy with the minister of defence, who has never served in the army,” he wrote.

 

Pavel Filatyev.

 

Since going public, he said, his entire unit has cut contact with him. But he believed that 20% of them supported his protest outright. And many others, in quiet conversations, had told him about a grudging sense of respect for the patriotism of Ukrainians fighting to defend their own territory. Or had complained about mistreatment by Russia of its own soldiers.

 

“No one is treating veterans here,” he said at one point. In military hospitals, he described meeting disgruntled soldiers, including wounded sailors from the Moskva cruiser, sunk by Ukrainian missiles in April, shouting a senior officer out of the room. And, in ZOV, he claimed that “there are heaps of dead, whose relatives have not been paid compensation”, corroborating media reports of wounded soldiers waiting months for payouts.

 

Filatyev’s original plan was to publish his memoir and immediately turn himself in to the police. But Osechkin, the activist, told him to reconsider while urging him repeatedly to flee the country. Until this week, he had refused to do so.

 

The Russian cruiser Moskva, damaged by Ukrainian anti-ship missiles, prior to its sinking. Photograph: Twitter

 

“So I leave, I go to America, and who am I there? What am I supposed to do?” he said. “If I’m not even needed in my own country, then who needs me there?”

 

That was why, for two weeks, Filatyev had been staying in a different hotel every night and living out of a heavy black knapsack he carried with him, trying to stay one step ahead of the police. Even then, he admits, he should not have been hard to find.

 

The Guardian has not been able to independently verify all the details of Filatyev’s story, but he has supplied documents and photographs showing he was a paratrooper with the 56th airborne regiment stationed in Crimea, that he was hospitalised with an eye injury sustained while “performing special tasks in Ukraine” in April and that he had written directly to the Kremlin with his complaints about the war before going public.

 

Filatyev posing with a rifle.

 

Old photographs show Filatyev as a teenager in a blue-and-white telnyashka (the traditional blue and white undershirt worn by military personnel) among his fellow soldiers, then hanging from a carousel during paratrooper training, then, already older, clean-shaven in tan camouflage posing with a rifle in Crimea before the war began.

 

Born into a military family in the southern city of Volgodonsk, Filatyev, 34, spent much of his early 20s in the army. After serving in Chechnya in the late 2000s, he spent nearly a decade as a horse trainer, working for the Russian meat-producing company Miratorg and wealthy clients before reenlisting in 2021 for financial reasons, he said.

 

Now he is a changed man. He remains powerfully built and articulate, but war and stress have taken their toll. His scarred cheeks are covered by a two-week old stubble. He still can’t see properly out of his right eye. And he laughs bitterly at having to complain about the Russian army to a foreign journalist and “coming to talk to you like a priest over beers”.

 

“They say that the heroism of some is the fault of others,” he said. “It’s the 21st century, we started this idiotic war, and once again we’re calling on soldiers to carry out heroic deeds, to sacrifice themselves. What’s the problem – are we not dying out at it is?”

 

Most of all, he wondered why he was still free. He had heard that his unit was preparing to charge him with desertion, an accusation that could land him in prison for many years. And yet nothing happened.

 

“I don’t understand why they still haven’t snatched me up,” he says upon meeting at a train station in Moscow. “I’ve said more than anyone has for the last six months. Maybe they don’t know what to do with me.”

I am just terrified of what happens next

 

It is a mystery he may never solve. Filatyev fled the country via an undisclosed route sometime after Saturday evening, when he headed off to find a hostel to spend the night. Two days later, Osechkin announced Filatyev had managed to escape Russia “before his arrest”. It is still unclear whether or not he has been charged formally with any crime in Russia.

“Why should I have to flee my country just for telling the truth about what these bastards have turned our army into,” Filatyev wrote in a Telegram message. “I am overwhelmed by emotions that I have had to leave my country.”

He remains one of just a handful of Russian soldiers to have spoken out publicly about the war, albeit after months of agonising about how to do so without violating his service. “People ask me why I didn’t throw down my weapon,” he said. “Well I’m against this war, but I’m not a general, I’m not the defence minister, I’m not Putin – I don’t know how to stop this. I wouldn’t have changed anything to become a coward, and throw down my weapon and abandon my comrades.”

Sitting along the busy streets of Moscow for possibly the last time, he said he hoped this would all come to an end after popular protests like during the Vietnam war. But for now, he said, that seemed far off.

“I am just terrified of what happens next,” he said, imagining Russia fighting for total victory despite the terrible cost. “What will we pay for that? Who will be left in our country? ... For myself I said that this is a personal tragedy. Because what have we become? And how can it get any worse?”

[Why?]

Ukraine is already closed case, this topic merits a full closure.   NATO and the United States have given up on Ukraine and allow Putin full reign over Eastern Ukraine. It is considered, an early "Christmas Gift", and there is nothing anyone can do about it.   Life goes on to tackle more important matters like.....repealing S377A

Edited August 19, 2022 by Why?

[sgmaven]

On 8/19/2022 at 6:59 PM, Why? said:

Ukraine is already closed case, this topic merits a full closure.   NATO and the United States have given up on Ukraine and allow Putin full reign over Eastern Ukraine. It is considered, an early "Christmas Gift", and there is nothing anyone can do about it.   Life goes on to tackle more important matters like.....repealing S377A

As long as the Ukrainian forces can continue to pressure the Russians in Crimea and around Kherson, I think the case is far from closed. I know the West straddles a thin line with supplying weapons to the Ukrainian forces, since more weapons may be used as an excuse by Russia to escalate tensions already fraying in the region.

[Steve5380]

On 8/19/2022 at 5:59 AM, Why? said:

Ukraine is already closed case, this topic merits a full closure.   NATO and the United States have given up on Ukraine and allow Putin full reign over Eastern Ukraine. It is considered, an early "Christmas Gift", and there is nothing anyone can do about it.   Life goes on to tackle more important matters like.....repealing S377A

 

You can become a closed case.

 

We already know that so many of your posts cannot be trusted,  especially in a politically driven topic like the Ukraine invasion.  So why don't you move to the thread about 377A  and see if you have more luck there?

[Why?]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:26 AM, Steve5380 said:

We already know that so many of your posts cannot be trusted,  especially in a politically driven topic like the Ukraine invasion.  

If you have the capacity to think clearly, regulate your emotions, be more politically astute, and quit sobbing over spilled milk, you can trust my postings to be extremely accurate, unbiased and sound. 

 

If you require visual convincing of fact, here it is

If you need something to rhyme with the above map, here is more.  

 

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again.

 

I do sympathize with the most corrupt country in the world, and Zelenskky's decision to use Vogue in addition to his other social media diarrhea makes me feel bad for him. I share your concerns about the vast number of refugees. Are you going to fly to Ukraine and change the path with a magic wand?  Congratulations, if your efforts succeeded in ending the Ukraine war through your keyboards.🤢

 

 

[sgmaven]

Importantly, the Ukrainian forces are making gains towards Kherson. That Southwestern Flank is important, since it takes some pressure off the port city of Odesa, Ukraine's port on the Black Sea.

 

Hopefully, the Ukrainian forces will be able to retake Kherson soon!

 

[sgmaven]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:44 PM, Why? said:

I do sympathize with the most corrupt country in the world, and Zelenskky's decision to use Vogue in addition to his other social media diarrhea makes me feel bad for him.

Most corrupt? Transparency International still rates Ukraine better than Russia in terms of corruption, so there goes. While the Ukraine has never won any prizes for the lack of corruption, it is by no means the "most corrupt country in the world" like you claim. Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index for 2021 rates South Sudan as the most corrupt.

[Why?]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:56 PM, sgmaven said:

 

Hopefully, the Ukrainian forces will be able to retake Kherson soon!

 

The weather plays a crucial part in the art of war. Putin is anticipating the arrival of winter. Before spring arrives, it will be evident who won and who lost.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Why?

[singalion]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:13 PM, Why? said:

The weather plays a crucial part in the art of war. Putin is anticipating the arrival of winter. Before spring arrives, it will be evident who won and who lost.

 

 With more and more Russian soldiers deserting, gonna bet what country's military is willing to freeze it's ass off?

 

Russian soldiers also seem to obstruct orders...

 

Let's see whose motivation will be higher on this war...

 

 

[sgmaven]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:13 PM, Why? said:

The weather plays a crucial part in the art of war. Putin is anticipating the arrival of winter. Before spring arrives, it will be evident who won and who lost.

One wonders what "secret information" you seem to have that makes you so confident that the Russians will prevail during the winter. Remember that the Ukrainians have been fighting against the Russians since 2014, so it is not the first winter they will be battling in...