Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[sgmaven]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:53 PM, Steve5380 said:

Yes,  "being played".

 

This reminds us of WWII,  when the Jews "were played" by both sides.  The Nazis rounded them off and killed them in their gas chambers,  while the Allies gave refuge to those who could escape.

 

And today,  Ukraine has been invaded by Russian troops, who are now killing their civilians,  while the NATO provides weapons to the Ukrainians to defend themselves and impose sanctions to the invading country, and gives refuge to those Ukrainians who want to escape.

 

And how about "both sides"? One notices that there are those who try to put "both sides" on an equal footing.  They may not be thinking strong enough.

 

"Equality" may be true on their military strength, more or less.  On a nuclear war both sides would exterminate each other.  On a conventional war,  NATO has superiority over Russia.

 

"Equality" is false in any other aspect.  Give 100 families the choice to live either in Russia or in America,  and it would be surprising if anyone would choose Russia.

I realise that many Amercans see their own country through rose-tinted glasses.

 

The US seldom does anything for purely altruistic reasons.

 

With the current situation in the Ukraine, I liken it to the US being a "friend" who eggs on the weakling to fight the playground bully, knowing it is a one-sided fight. Sure, the "friend" will give words of encouragement, and even teach the weakling a technique or two, but will not defend his "friend" against the bully.

 

While I do not agree with what Russia is doing, it is not that different from how the US toppled left-leaning governments in Latin America over the past few decades, sometimes funding and training separatists no different from Russia in the Dombas.

 

If you need more convincing, just look at how many of the GOP politicians are so ready to heap praise on Putin, describing what he did as a brilliant move...

[Guest Holding my Nose]

I don't like America as much, after this war started. Simply, their ignorance stench to high heaven.

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 7:20 AM, Guest Holding my Nose said:

I don't like America as much, after this war started. Simply, their ignorance stench to high heaven.

 

You live so far from America yet the stench of its ignorance still reaches you?  This is good, it means that your sense of smell has not been destroyed by covid-19.  And you have a simple solution:  put one of these old wooden cloth hanger clips on your nose, and from then on breathe through your mouth.  

 

 

On 3/12/2022 at 3:53 AM, sgmaven said:

I realise that many Amercans see their own country through rose-tinted glasses.

 

The US seldom does anything for purely altruistic reasons.

 

With the current situation in the Ukraine, I liken it to the US being a "friend" who eggs on the weakling to fight the playground bully, knowing it is a one-sided fight. Sure, the "friend" will give words of encouragement, and even teach the weakling a technique or two, but will not defend his "friend" against the bully.

 

While I do not agree with what Russia is doing, it is not that different from how the US toppled left-leaning governments in Latin America over the past few decades, sometimes funding and training separatists no different from Russia in the Dombas.

 

If you need more convincing, just look at how many of the GOP politicians are so ready to heap praise on Putin, describing what he did as a brilliant move...

 

I admit that we may be judging with rose-tinted glasses,  but not all is rosy in America.  However, it is still a hundred times better than the other side.

 

There is still some ugly totalitarianism in the US. This was always there lately in the republican party but was completely unleashed by Donald Trump,  of course since he is an admirer and friend (or puppet) of Putin. 

 

The assault on the Congress in January 2021 had some similarity with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.  An affront against democracy, against the self governing will of the electorate.  The same was Trump's Big Lie. 

 

But it was squelched.  The responsible of the assault now face strong penalties.  The event had enormous repercussions.  But there were only a handful of casualties, and a barbarian invader put his feet on Nancy Pelosi's desk!

 

Compare this with the thousands of innocent victims of the Russian invasion and their destruction of the Ukrainian's cities and infrastructure.  Further compare with the use of cluster bombs the Russians dropped on the civilians, and the possible thread of their use of chemical and biological weapons.

 

About the actions of the US in South America:  this southern continent has been traditionally ravaged by  internal revolutions, which had nothing to do with foreign interventions.  The coup d'etat in Chile in 1973 that toppled Allende was one exception, in a country that had had plenty of political unrest between conservatives and liberals, and then US president Nixon (an infamous republican) was afraid of "communism",  an endemic fear in the US,  and he imposed economic sanctions on Chile.  The 3 years of Allende's government were an economic disaster, and finally the military deposed him.  He died during the coup by shooting himself in the head... with a gun he got from Fidel Castro.

 

The fear of communism invading South America was not so unfounded.  The best example is what Fidel Castro did to Cuba!  So many people fled Cuba towards the US.  NO boats ever went the opposite direction,  refugees from US trying to reach Cuba,  ha ha!

 

During my childhood and adolescence I lived through several revolutions in Argentina.  None of them had anything to do with America.  The US did not bomb cities with cluster bombs and chemical weapons.  This seems to be an exclusivity of Russia,  in Syria and other places.  This Putin is a mass murderer,  a criminal against humanity who will have it coming.

. 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Steve5380

[Kenichi]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:53 PM, sgmaven said:

I realise that many Amercans see their own country through rose-tinted glasses.

 

The US seldom does anything for purely altruistic reasons.

 

With the current situation in the Ukraine, I liken it to the US being a "friend" who eggs on the weakling to fight the playground bully, knowing it is a one-sided fight. Sure, the "friend" will give words of encouragement, and even teach the weakling a technique or two, but will not defend his "friend" against the bully.

 

While I do not agree with what Russia is doing, it is not that different from how the US toppled left-leaning governments in Latin America over the past few decades, sometimes funding and training separatists no different from Russia in the Dombas.

 

If you need more convincing, just look at how many of the GOP politicians are so ready to heap praise on Putin, describing what he did as a brilliant move...

To be fair, no country does anything for purely altruistic reasons.

 

I also don't think it's fair to say that the US is egging on the weakling to fight the playground bully. This belittles the Ukrainian people and their will and bravery in defending their country. While I am not familiar with the history of Latin America, surely there's a big difference between toppling the government of a country and invading a country and bombing it to ruins.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Kenichi

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:19 AM, Steve5380 said:

About the actions of the US in South America:  this southern continent has been traditionally ravaged by  internal revolutions, which had nothing to do with foreign interventions.  The coup d'etat in Chile in 1973 that toppled Allende was one exception, in a country that had had plenty of political unrest between conservatives and liberals, and then US president Nixon (an infamous republican) was afraid of "communism",  an endemic fear in the US,  and he imposed economic sanctions on Chile.  The 3 years of Allende's government were an economic disaster

 

Only Allende in Chile...

History teaching in schools in the US must be very bad. Or eventually they are as ideologically tainted as in Russia...

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States#:~:text=1898 to 1935%3A The United,%26 (1926–1933).

 

Notable 19th century interventions included:

• Repeated U.S. interventions in Chile, starting in 1811, the year after its independence from Spain.
• 1846 to 1848: During the Mexican–American War, Mexico and the United States warred over Texas, California and what today is the American Southwest but was then part of Mexico. During this war, U.S. troops invaded and occupied parts of Mexico, including Veracruz and Mexico City.

1898 to 1935: The United States launched multiple minor interventions into Latin America, resulting in U.S. military presence in Cuba, Honduras, Panama (via the Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty and Isthmian Canal Commission), Haiti (1915–1935), the Dominican Republic (1916–1924) and Nicaragua (1912–1925) & (1926–1933).

United States involvement in regime change in in Latin America

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

That one lists 12 in Latin America after WWII...

 

• 1898 to 1935: The United States launched multiple minor interventions into Latin America, resulting in U.S. military presence in Cuba, Honduras, Panama (via the Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty and Isthmian Canal Commission),^[11] Haiti (1915–1935),^[12] the Dominican Republic (1916–1924) and Nicaragua (1912–1925) & (1926–1933).^[13] The U.S. Marine Corps began to specialize in long-term military occupation of these countries, primarily to safeguard customs revenues which were the cause of local civil wars.^[14]
  • 1901: The Platt Amendment amended a treaty between the U.S. and Cuba after the Spanish–American War, virtually making Cuba a U.S. protectorate. The amendment outlined conditions for the U.S. to intervene in Cuban affairs and permitted the United States to lease or buy lands for the purpose of the establishing naval bases, including Guantánamo Bay.^[15]

 

• 1906 to 1909: The U.S. governed Cuba under Governor Charles Magoon.^[17]
• 1914: During a revolution in the Dominican Republic, the U.S. navy fired at revolutionaries who were bombarding Puerto Plata, in order to stop the action.
• 1916 to 1924: U.S. Marines occupied the Dominican Republic following 28 revolutions in 50 years.^[18] The Marines ruled the nation completely except for lawless parts of the city of Santo Domingo, where warlords still held sway.^[19]

 

• 1910 to 1919: The Border War along the U.S.-Mexico border saw U.S. forces occupy Veracruz for six months in 1914. U.S. troops intervened in northern Mexico during the Pancho Villa Expedition.^[21]

 

When democratically elected Guatemalan President Jacobo Árbenz attempted a modest redistribution of land, he was overthrown in the 1954 CIA Guatemalan coup d'état

In 1952, the CIA launched Operation PBFortune and, in 1954, Operation PBSuccess to depose the democratically elected Guatemalan President Jacobo Árbenz and ended the Guatemalan Revolution. The coup installed the military dictatorship of Carlos Castillo Armas, the first in a series of U.S.-backed dictators who ruled Guatemala. Guatemala subsequently plunged into a civil war that cost thousands of lives and ended all democratic expression for decades.^[36][37][

 

1961, the CIA sponsored the assassination of Rafael Trujillo, former dictator of the Dominican Republic.^[44] After a period of instability, U.S. troops intervened the Dominican Republic into the Dominican Civil War (April 1965) to prevent a takeover by supporters of deposed left wing president Juan Bosch who were fighting supporters of General Elías Wessin y Wessin. The soldiers were also deployed to evacuate foreign citizens. The U.S. deployed 22,000 soldiers and suffered 44 dead. The OAS also deployed soldiers to the conflict through the Inter-American Peace Force. U.S. soldiers were gradually withdrawn from May onwards. The war officially ended on September 3, 1965. The first postwar elections were held on July 1, 1966, conservative Joaquín Balaguer defeated former president Juan Bosch.^[45]

 

 

yes, just Chile...

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by singalion

[Kenichi]

Not to split hairs, but I think there's a difference between Latin America and South America, though there are overlaps. Latin America includes Central America (which I believe countries such as Mexico - or does Mexico belong in North America?, Nicaragua and Guatemala are part of) and South America to which countries such as Chile belong.

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:45 AM, singalion said:

 

Only Allende in Chile...

History teaching in schools in the US must be very bad. Or eventually they are as ideologically tainted as in Russia...

----

yes, just Chile...

 

 

You didn't notice that I wrote "ONE exception" where the US had a major influence in a coup in South America.  There were many others,  but the number of coups in the region over the years are too many to count.   Just in Argentina, there were six coups during the 20th century, four of which during the time I lived there.  No US forces there,  just their influence in the last ones sought by the conservatives in power at the time.  The US never had a good reputation in Argentina.

 

The involvement of the US in Latin America has had a principal objective:  keep communism out of the region.  And in spite of all the negatives that could be attributed to this,  this vast region has suffered much less than other parts of the world in recent times.  Much, much less conflict than what happened in Europa, Asia in the 20th century with the 2 world wars, the communist regimes in Russia, China and other regions in Asia, conflicts that Latin America had very little to do with. 

 

I feel blessed that all my life and the later part of my mother family's life have been spent in America,  first in the South, and now in North America. 

.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:37 PM, Kenichi said:

Not to split hairs, but I think there's a difference between Latin America and South America, though there are overlaps. Latin America includes Central America (which I believe countries such as Mexico - or does Mexico belong in North America?, Nicaragua and Guatemala are part of) and South America to which countries such as Chile belong.

 

Yes, you are right that Latin America encompasses more land than just South America,  the difference is mostly "central" America.  The "mostly" is because a few small places in Central America are not Spanish speaking.  Mexico belongs to North America.   We selfish Argentinians tend to ignore the "central", and speak more of "south" and "north",  ha ha.

 

 

On 3/12/2022 at 10:59 AM, Kenichi said:

To be fair, no country does anything for purely altruistic reasons.

 

I also don't think it's fair to say that the US is egging on the weakling to fight the playground bully. This belittles the Ukrainian people and their will and bravery in defending their country. While I am not familiar with the history of Latin America, surely there's a big difference between toppling the government of a country and invading a country and bombing it to ruins.

 

Very true!  Countries are not much different than individuals.  We also are not very altruistic with strangers.  Some countries do a lot of social work internally, for their own population, but this is not the issue here.   Some countries are pressured by their own internal politics to be altruistic overseas, like the US attempts to "bring democracy and do nation building" in other countries, but these efforts are not very successful and often backfire.

 

Fortunately,  Latin America has been lately relatively stable, with few conflicts attracting the world's attention.  Venezuela is a case where many decent people would welcome an intervention by the US to throw out president Maduro and help the poor people there,  and we would have always liked to have the US exterminate the Castro family in Cuba,  but  the US is showing some restrain here.

.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Steve5380

[sgmaven]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:59 AM, Kenichi said:

While I am not familiar with the history of Latin America, surely there's a big difference between toppling the government of a country and invading a country and bombing it to ruins.

I would recommend that you read up on your Latin American history. Read about the US hand in the activities of the Contras in Nicaragua, for example.

 

As for invading a country and bombing it to ruins, why don't you consider what was done in Iraq? Sure, Sadaam Hussein was no angel, but the whole premise of intervention, the presence of Weapons of Mass Destruction never surfaced.

[sgmaven]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

The involvement of the US in Latin America has had a principal objective:  keep communism out of the region.

Isn't that the same as what Russia is trying to do? Making sure that all the countries in their "backyard" are in their sphere of influence? Just that Western media tends to reframe all this as Russian aggression and the US liberation of free people. The US has been actively undermining left-leaning governments in Latin America for ages, and it is no wonder why so many people there do not have a positive view on Americans. They come in to impose their mindset, without considering the locals. Remember that most of Latin America have already had the experience of another country take over them and plunder their riches and subjugate their populations before, so they don't necessarily look to kindly on any interference on their own affairs.

 

On 3/13/2022 at 4:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

And in spite of all the negatives that could be attributed to this,  this vast region has suffered much less than other parts of the world in recent times.  Much, much less conflict than what happened in Europa, Asia in the 20th century with the 2 world wars, the communist regimes in Russia, China and other regions in Asia, conflicts that Latin America had very little to do with.

The US has been great at covering up so much stuff that Americans seem to have a distorted history of the Americas. American media always seem to portray the region as full of drugs, prostitutes and the mafia. No doubt many in America (and even in Singapore) believe that. Quite to the contrary, many parts are also not having the influences of these vices (and don't even try to say the US is free from these activities).

 

Since you mentioned WW2, remember that Latin America consisted of mainly independent nations by then, the only colonies of size were British Honduras (Belize) and the Guyanas. Since there was little actual Axis presence on the continent, plus their relative geographic distance from the conflict zones, most could stay out of conflict. Still, Mexico  and Brazil did send forces to fight. Do note that Latin America was also home to the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War during WW2, which didn't really settle things, and resurfaced later.

 

Do remember that the US was very complicit in the coup-d'état that overthrew democratically-elected Isobel Peron from the presidency. This led to the Dirty War and many human rights abuses, that the US government turned a blind eye to, while supporting this authoritarian regime. And you still wonder why the Argentinians don't like the Americans?

 

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:19 AM, Steve5380 said:

About the actions of the US in South America:  this southern continent has been traditionally ravaged by  internal revolutions, which had nothing to do with foreign interventions.  The coup d'etat in Chile in 1973 that toppled Allende was one exception, in a country that had had plenty of political unrest between conservatives and liberals, and then US president Nixon (an infamous republican) was afraid of "communism", 

 

Steve you didn't write what you now claim. 

You presented the Chile incident as the one exception to US intervention following an unrest. 

 

On 3/13/2022 at 4:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

You didn't notice that I wrote "ONE exception" where the US had a major influence in a coup in South America. 

 

You don't need to come and twist your words everytime to make it look as if you wrote something different at start! 

 

We can all read your sentence on "one ecxeption". 

 

You always need to make yourself look like a 🤡.

 

Actually, there was also no need at all to respond and defend yourself unecessarily. 

 

This is no malevolent attack but just to show what makes it difficult to interact with you at BW. 

 

Simply draft your posts more accurately and factually from start then you don't need to run into these issues. 

 

I don't expect another defensive reply from you. 

Case for me is closed. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 5:12 AM, Steve5380 said:

Yes, you are right that Latin America encompasses more land than just South America,  the difference is mostly "central" America.  The "mostly" is because a few small places in Central America are not Spanish speaking.  Mexico belongs to North America.   We selfish Argentinians tend to ignore the "central", and speak more of "south" and "north", 

 

You forgot the Caribbean also!!! (Haiti, Cuba, Grenada, etc...)

 

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:58 PM, singalion said:

 

Steve you didn't write what you now claim. 

You presented the Chile incident as the only exception to US intervention following an unrest. 

 

You don't need to come and twist your words everytime to make it look as if you wrote something different! 

 

We can all read your sentence on "one ecxeption". 

 

Actually, there was also no need at all to respond and defend yourself unecessarily. 

 

Case for me is closed. 

 

 

You are wrong.  Read again my post, and realize that I wrote "one exception".  And you wrote this here yourself.  After you wrote that I presented Chile as the "only exception".   I never wrote that Chile was the "only exception".  Need some reading glasses?

 

Please make up your mind.  Is "only exception" the same as "one exception" ?  Is "only" the same as "one" ???

 

There was no need for you to criticize my post,  and then make a mistake in the process.   

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:42 AM, sgmaven said:

Sadaam Hussein was no angel, but the whole premise of intervention, the presence of Weapons of Mass Destruction never surfaced

 

I personally think Russia is using these examples by building up these claims on biological and chemical weapons at the UN security council meetings to point to the hypocrisy of the US. They say" We do the same what you did to justify our intervention in Ukraine. ( pointing to Irak).

 

It is more a didactic move from Russia by intending to say: "It was you dear US that undermined the trust into this institution."

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:03 PM, singalion said:

 

You forgot the Caribbean also!!! (Haiti, Cuba, Grenada, etc...)

 

 

It is clear that you are looking for creating trouble in your comments of my posts.  I will have to put you on IGNORE,  the same as I did with InBangkok.

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:10 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

You are wrong.  Read again my post, and realize that I wrote "one exception".  And you wrote this here yourself.  After you wrote that I presented Chile as the "only exception".   I never wrote that Chile was the "only exception".  Need some reading glasses?

 

Please make up your mind.  Is "only exception" the same as "one exception" ?  Is "only" the same as "one" ???

 

There was no need for you to criticize my post,  and then make a mistake in the process.   

 

Only was my error in the first paragraph just now.

 

But:

So Chile was the one exception of US intervention in South America?

 

You can't even admit that probably you erroneously used "exception" when it should have been example. 

 

How long do you want to drag this on?

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:10 PM, Steve5380 said:

There was no need for you to criticize my post,  and then make a mistake in the process.   

 

I criticised your initial post because it was a whitewashing on the US interventions in South America. 

 

You presented the US as if Chile was one exception while it was one example of plenty unjustified US interventions in South America. 

 

 

If you don't like to be contradicted or to properly discuss subjects then don't come to a discussion forum. 

 

By the way I already moved back to discussing Ukraine and the recent Russian UN security council reaction. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:23 PM, sgmaven said:

Isn't that the same as what Russia is trying to do? Making sure that all the countries in their "backyard" are in their sphere of influence? Just that Western media tends to reframe all this as Russian aggression and the US liberation of free people. The US has been actively undermining left-leaning governments in Latin America for ages, and it is no wonder why so many people there do not have a positive view on Americans. They come in to impose their mindset, without considering the locals. Remember that most of Latin America have already had the experience of another country take over them and plunder their riches and subjugate their populations before, so they don't necessarily look to kindly on any interference on their own affairs.

 

The US has been great at covering up so much stuff that Americans seem to have a distorted history of the Americas. American media always seem to portray the region as full of drugs, prostitutes and the mafia. No doubt many in America (and even in Singapore) believe that. Quite to the contrary, many parts are also not having the influences of these vices (and don't even try to say the US is free from these activities).

 

Since you mentioned WW2, remember that Latin America consisted of mainly independent nations by then, the only colonies of size were British Honduras (Belize) and the Guyanas. Since there was little actual Axis presence on the continent, plus their relative geographic distance from the conflict zones, most could stay out of conflict. Still, Mexico  and Brazil did send forces to fight. Do note that Latin America was also home to the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War during WW2, which didn't really settle things, and resurfaced later.

 

Do remember that the US was very complicit in the coup-d'état that overthrew democratically-elected Isobel Peron from the presidency. This led to the Dirty War and many human rights abuses, that the US government turned a blind eye to, while supporting this authoritarian regime. And you still wonder why the Argentinians don't like the Americans?

 

 

There are no perfect countries, and there are good and bad people in every country.

 

Comparing Russia and America objectively,  there is no doubt that Russia is a totalitarian regime while America respects freedoms.  Today we witness a perfect example of this.  In Russia, people are cut off from any information that contradicts their dictatorial government and are thrown in prison for saying some words.   Not so in the US.   Russia was condemned by a near absolute majority of nations for its attack on Ukraine.  Not so the US.  America's allies are progressive democracies.   Russia's buddies are other totalitarian governments,  like China.

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:33 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

There are no perfect countries, and there are good and bad people in every country.

 

Comparing Russia and America objectively,  there is no doubt that Russia is a totalitarian regime while America respects freedoms.  Today we witness a perfect example of this.  In Russia, people are cut off from any information that contradicts their dictatorial government and are thrown in prison for saying some words.   Not so in the US.   Russia was condemned by a near absolute majority of nations for its attack on Ukraine.  Not so the US.  America's allies are progressive democracies.   Russia's buddies are other totalitarian governments,  like China.

 

The US policy had been more persuasive if it had upheld the democratic principles in their foreign policy. 

It could have lead with leading as a good example and model. 

 

The intrusive and dirty policies of the US just gave justifications to other countries to do the same. 

 

Now, the US has to face the own inconsistencies of their own foreign policy and blood on the hands of the US.

 

You can see how Russia is exploiting this at the moment. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Guest]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:44 PM, singalion said:

 

The US policy had been more persuasive if it had upheld the democratic principles in their foreign policy. 

It could have lead with leading as a good example and model. 

 

The intrusive and dirty policies of the US just gave justifications to other countries to do the same. 

 

Now, the US has to face the own inconsistencies of their own foreign policy and blood on the hands of the US.

 

You can see how Russia is exploiting this at the moment. 

 

 

... and who else is to be blamed for that? Senile Biden!

 

[Guest Ooooh]

Russian troops are inching closer to Kyviv.   Once the major cities and borders of Ukraine are conquered, someone is fucked!

[sgmaven]

On 3/13/2022 at 12:33 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

There are no perfect countries, and there are good and bad people in every country.

Of course! But the US bending the rules causes it to lose the moral high ground, and countries like Russia will pounce on that opportunity to abuse the "system".

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:19 PM, Steve5380 said:

Further compare with the use of cluster bombs the Russians dropped on the civilians

 

That’s a rather inaccurate and downright false conclusion. Which country continuously poured so many cluster bombs over Laos over a very long 8 year period during the Vietnam war era such that tiny Laos became the most bombed country in world history? None other than the USA?

 

The USA and Americans need to do some heavy self reflection before it criticises other countries for the use of such weapons.

[Guest Wake the Fuck Up]

I do not like to see Ukrianians suffer, but there is no other ways to wake them through Russia's victory.   This war exposed the weakness of putting all eggs into one basket.  Look at the sanction, America controls every corporate functioning, from facebook to Mcondalds and the banks.  It can allows itself to spread fake news,   It controls NATO, UN and IMF and the international federations that sub-control the olympics, the other small business it deemed fit..   We need a stronger China to provide alternative from sanctioning like this.  

 

Putin is just one of the big guns, in the geopolitical scheme of thing, but it is the America that pulls the triggers that caused Ukranian to suffer.    

[Steve5380]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:36 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

That’s a rather inaccurate and downright false conclusion. Which country continuously poured so many cluster bombs over Laos over a very long 8 year period during the Vietnam war era such that tiny Laos became the most bombed country in world history? None other than the USA?

 

The USA and Americans need to do some heavy self reflection before it criticises other countries for the use of such weapons.

 

You need to read about the history of the cluster bombs and the variety of them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition

 

The first significantly operationally used^[3] cluster bomb was the German SD-2 or Sprengbombe Dickwandig 2 kg, commonly referred to as the Butterfly Bomb.^[4] It was used in World War II to attack both civilian and military targets. The technology was developed independently by the United States, Russia and Italy (see Thermos bomb). The US used the 20-lb M41 fragmentation bomb wired together in clusters of 6 or 25 with highly sensitive or proximity fuzes.

From the 1970s to the 1990s cluster bombs became standard air-dropped munitions for many nations, in a wide variety of types. They have been produced by 34 countries and used in at least 23.^[5]

Artillery shells that employ similar principles have existed for decades. They are typically referred to as ICM (Improved Conventional Munitions) shells. The US military slang terms for them are "firecracker" or "popcorn" shells, for the many small explosions they cause in the target area.

 

Cluster munitions are prohibited for those nations that ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. The Convention entered into force and became binding international law upon ratifying states on 1 August 2010, six months after being ratified by 30 states.^[1] As of 10 February 2022, a total of 123 states have joined the Convention, as 110 states parties and 13 signatories.^[2]

 

Of course the US used cluster bombs in the past, together with many other countries, before they were banned.

TODAY their use is prohibited and has become a war crime.  A crime being committed by Russia, not the US.

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 9:54 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

You need to read about the history of the cluster bombs and the variety of them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition

 

The first significantly operationally used^[3] cluster bomb was the German SD-2 or Sprengbombe Dickwandig 2 kg, commonly referred to as the Butterfly Bomb.^[4] It was used in World War II to attack both civilian and military targets. The technology was developed independently by the United States, Russia and Italy (see Thermos bomb). The US used the 20-lb M41 fragmentation bomb wired together in clusters of 6 or 25 with highly sensitive or proximity fuzes.

From the 1970s to the 1990s cluster bombs became standard air-dropped munitions for many nations, in a wide variety of types. They have been produced by 34 countries and used in at least 23.^[5]

Artillery shells that employ similar principles have existed for decades. They are typically referred to as ICM (Improved Conventional Munitions) shells. The US military slang terms for them are "firecracker" or "popcorn" shells, for the many small explosions they cause in the target area.

 

Cluster munitions are prohibited for those nations that ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. The Convention entered into force and became binding international law upon ratifying states on 1 August 2010, six months after being ratified by 30 states.^[1] As of 10 February 2022, a total of 123 states have joined the Convention, as 110 states parties and 13 signatories.^[2]

 

Of course the US used cluster bombs in the past, together with many other countries, before they were banned.

TODAY their use is prohibited and has become a war crime.  A crime being committed by Russia, not the US.

 

 

 

Yes, nice but you didn't do a background check:

 

Russia is not a party to a 2008 convention banning cluster munitions, although it is bound by international humanitarian law, particularly the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks.

 

[Guest Re re]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:04 PM, singalion said:

 

Yes, nice but you didn't do a background check:

 

Russia is not a party to a 2008 convention banning cluster munitions, although it is bound by international humanitarian law, particularly the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks.

 

...

[sgmaven]

On 3/13/2022 at 9:54 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

You need to read about the history of the cluster bombs and the variety of them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition

 

The first significantly operationally used^[3] cluster bomb was the German SD-2 or Sprengbombe Dickwandig 2 kg, commonly referred to as the Butterfly Bomb.^[4] It was used in World War II to attack both civilian and military targets. The technology was developed independently by the United States, Russia and Italy (see Thermos bomb). The US used the 20-lb M41 fragmentation bomb wired together in clusters of 6 or 25 with highly sensitive or proximity fuzes.

From the 1970s to the 1990s cluster bombs became standard air-dropped munitions for many nations, in a wide variety of types. They have been produced by 34 countries and used in at least 23.^[5]

Artillery shells that employ similar principles have existed for decades. They are typically referred to as ICM (Improved Conventional Munitions) shells. The US military slang terms for them are "firecracker" or "popcorn" shells, for the many small explosions they cause in the target area.

 

Cluster munitions are prohibited for those nations that ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. The Convention entered into force and became binding international law upon ratifying states on 1 August 2010, six months after being ratified by 30 states.^[1] As of 10 February 2022, a total of 123 states have joined the Convention, as 110 states parties and 13 signatories.^[2]

 

Of course the US used cluster bombs in the past, together with many other countries, before they were banned.

TODAY their use is prohibited and has become a war crime.  A crime being committed by Russia, not the US.

 

 

Note that the US, like Russia, is not a signatory of this convention against the use of cluster bombs.

[Steve5380]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:47 PM, sgmaven said:

Note that the US, like Russia, is not a signatory of this convention against the use of cluster bombs.

 

You are right.  The countries with the largest stockpile of cluster bombs have not signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions.  But this may not leave them off the hook.

 

The International Criminal Court has declared that the use of cluster bombs on civilians is a war crime.

 

A crazy terrorist individual who walks into a mall with a AK-47 and kills dozens of people becomes a criminal and is prosecuted,  even if he has not signed any agreement against the use of AK-47s.

[Steve5380]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:32 PM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

 

Why the lecture on cluster bombs? That’s stupid! A cluster bomb is a cluster bomb and the effects are broadly similar.

 

And what about that nonsense re the International Criminal Court? The US has never recognized the ICC!!!

 

 

Oh,  I didn't have like you the experience of all the varieties of cluster bombs,  so I know very little about them.  Do they come in different colors?

 

About the US and the ICC,  I doubt that Biden will oppose the ICC when it finds Putin guilty of war crimes and orders him to be dropped inside of the core of the Chernobyl nuclear plant.

[singalion]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

You are right.  The countries with the largest stockpile of cluster bombs have not signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions.  But this may not leave them off the hook.

 

The International Criminal Court has declared that the use of cluster bombs on civilians is a war crime.

 

A crazy terrorist individual who walks into a mall with a AK-47 and kills dozens of people becomes a criminal and is prosecuted,  even if he has not signed any agreement against the use of AK-47s.

 

September 15, 2021 

The current US policy, issued under President Donald Trump in November 2017, replaced a Defense Department policy directive on cluster munitions issued by the George W. Bush administration in July 2008. The 2017 policy abandoned a requirement that by the end of 2018 the US could no longer use notoriously unreliable cluster munitions that result in more than a 1 percent rate of unexploded ordnance.

Instead, it permits the US to use all of the millions of cluster munitions in existing stocks “until sufficient quantities” of “enhanced and more reliable” versions are developed and fielded. It also facilitates US acquisition of cluster munitions from foreign sources to replenish stocks.  

 

The US did not participate, even as an observer, in the 2007-2008 Oslo Process that resulted in the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which comprehensively bans cluster munitions, requires clearance of cluster munitions remnants within 10 years, and directs assistance to victims.

 

 

=> US not party of Cluster bomb convention !

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Guest]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:20 AM, singalion said:

 

The current US policy, issued under President Donald Trump in November 2017, replaced a Defense Department policy directive on cluster munitions issued by the George W. Bush administration in July 2008. The 2017 policy abandoned a requirement that by the end of 2018 the US could no longer use notoriously unreliable cluster munitions that result in more than a 1 percent rate of unexploded ordnance.

Instead, it permits the US to use all of the millions of cluster munitions in existing stocks “until sufficient quantities” of “enhanced and more reliable” versions are developed and fielded. It also facilitates US acquisition of cluster munitions from foreign sources to replenish stocks.  

 

The US did not participate, even as an observer, in the 2007-2008 Oslo Process that resulted in the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which comprehensively bans cluster munitions, requires clearance of cluster munitions remnants within 10 years, and directs assistance to victims.

 

 

=> US not party of Cluster bomb convention !

 

 

This means the US can use them on Russia if necessary! Smart move by Donald Trump!

[Guest Re re]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

You are right.  The countries with the largest stockpile of cluster bombs have not signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions.  But this may not leave them off the hook.

 

The International Criminal Court has declared that the use of cluster bombs on civilians is a war crime.

 

A crazy terrorist individual who walks into a mall with a AK-47 and kills dozens of people becomes a criminal and is prosecuted,  even if he has not signed any agreement against the use of AK-47s.

 

September 15, 2021 

The current US policy, issued under President Donald Trump in November 2017, replaced a Defense Department policy directive on cluster munitions issued by the George W. Bush administration in July 2008. The 2017 policy abandoned a requirement that by the end of 2018 the US could no longer use notoriously unreliable cluster munitions that result in more than a 1 percent rate of unexploded ordnance.

Instead, it permits the US to use all of the millions of cluster munitions in existing stocks “until sufficient quantities” of “enhanced and more reliable” versions are developed and fielded. It also facilitates US acquisition of cluster munitions from foreign sources to replenish stocks.  

 

The US did not participate, even as an observer, in the 2007-2008 Oslo Process that resulted in the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which comprehensively bans cluster munitions, requires clearance of cluster munitions remnants within 10 years, and directs assistance to victims.

 

 

=> US not party of Cluster bomb convention !

[singalion]

On 3/13/2022 at 7:23 AM, sgmaven said:

The US has been great at covering up so much stuff that Americans seem to have a distorted history of the Americas. American media always seem to portray the region as full of drugs, prostitutes and the mafia. No doubt many in America (and even in Singapore) believe that. Quite to the contrary, many parts are also not having the influences of these vices (and don't even try to say the US is free from these activities).

 

Steve forgot to ask himself also who are the buyers and consumers of those drugs???

 

[Steve5380]

This thread should be about the Ukraine invasion by Russia and its impact on Singapore and Asia.

 

I haven't read here much of this lately.  Instead,  it seems to be a free-for-all bashing against America.

 

Does the Singapore government open its heart and tell everything it does to you the citizens ?  This is doubtful.

 

So it could be that all the anti-American bashing I read is mostly envy.  After all,  I enjoy many more freedoms in America than you do in Singapore.  Cost of living is lower,  and there is here plenty of land everywhere, especially in Texas.

[Guest Stupid US Resident]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:12 PM, Steve5380 said:

So it could be that all the anti-American bashing I read is mostly envy.  After all,  I enjoy many more freedoms in America than you do in Singapore.  Cost of living is lower,  and there is here plenty of land everywhere, especially in Texas.

 

Yah, you could enjoy all the freedom you want in the US. In Singapore,  there are no tent cities around,  no drug addicts roaming in the streets, no mob to beat or rob elderly Asians, no homeless people who push Asians onto train tracks for no reason. Except for one horrific tragic incident where one young student killed his peer which shocked the entire nation here, there are no regularly gun massacres in our schools here unlike the US. People here can walk freely and safely around without having to arms themselves or fear of being killed senselessly in the gun exchanges between gangs or the police or lunatics who enjoy shooting people  randomly. 

 

While racial harmony is still work in progress here, we don't have deep seated racial discrimination unlike the US where black discrimination is inherently presently in the society despite the emancipation of the Blacks during civil war centuries ago. Also our infrastructure is superior compared to USA's third world infrastructure cos our government do spend on them to improve the lives of people  here unlike US who spent trillions of dollars not to improve the lives of its citizens but on defence and military arms to wage wars  on countries who disagree with its ideology.

 

Hell yeah, you could stay in your beloved US for all you like, I wouldn't give a shit to the US. Just counting the days for another inevitable civil war to happen  in the US. Long overdue! 

 

[singalion]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

About the US and the ICC,  I doubt that Biden will oppose the ICC when it finds Putin guilty of war crimes and orders him to be dropped inside of the core of the Chernobyl nuclear plant.

Oh,  I didn't have like you the experience of all the varieties of cluster bombs,  so I know very little about them.  Do they come in different colors?

 

 

 

The US is not a signatory party to the International Criminal Court. As such referring to is for a US American is not persuasive.

Russia is not a signatory also. Ukraine is no party state to the ICC also, this means that the exception when crimes by a non party state are committed in a party state will not apply also.

The ICC may take up proceedings against Russia but it will lack enforcement.

[singalion]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:12 PM, Steve5380 said:

This thread should be about the Ukraine invasion by Russia and its impact on Singapore and Asia.

I haven't read here much of this lately.  Instead,  it seems to be a free-for-all bashing against America.

Does the Singapore government open its heart and tell everything it does to you the citizens ?  This is doubtful.

So it could be that all the anti-American bashing I read is mostly envy.  After all,  I enjoy many more freedoms in America than you do in Singapore.  Cost of living is lower,  and there is here plenty of land everywhere, especially in Texas.

 

It would be helpful to take a look who always needs to refer to the US at this thread and brings up anything on the US, when the topic is the Russian invasion to the Ukraine.

 

On 3/12/2022 at 3:17 AM, Steve5380 said:

Meanwhile, in America we have Joe Biden as president.  Since I live there, I have an opportunity to personally experience the political life in the US.   And not only because he was MY president of choice,  I find him to be one of the best presidents I have known since living there.  He is decent, with good moral standards, and he is trying to do the best job he can for his country.  He is not a rocket scientist, but an expert politician.  If being a senior has reduced some of his abilities like sharp memory and energic stride,  he was smart to surround himself with staff that is very competent.  I hope he won't be, but if necessary he will be a good war president.

 

Please review what Member always diverts the topic at this thread.

 

Also as this comparison where people would prefer to live in the US or in Russia.

 

On 3/11/2022 at 10:53 PM, Steve5380 said:

"Equality" is false in any other aspect.  Give 100 families the choice to live either in Russia or in America,  and it would be surprising if anyone would choose Russia. 

 

It was not us who brought up such unnecessary distractions.

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:12 PM, Steve5380 said:

This thread should be about the Ukraine invasion by Russia and its impact on Singapore and Asia. I haven't read here much of this lately.  Instead,  it seems to be a free-for-all bashing against America. Does the Singapore government open its heart and tell everything it does to you the citizens ?  This is doubtful. So it could be that all the anti-American bashing I read is mostly envy.  After all,  I enjoy many more freedoms in America than you do in Singapore.  Cost of living is lower,  and there is here plenty of land everywhere, especially in Texas.

 

If you bring the US into the thread than please be prepared to expect us to state our point of view on the US.

Strangely, when something critical is said on the US then you directly call it "US bashing".

 

We are people here of different origins and nationalities .

 

If you are not interested in our opinions, then you are at the wrong place in a political discussion at a discussion Forum.

 

We are not here to just parrot your incessant praises for the US or Biden.

 

I always thought the US lauds itself as giving freedom to speech and freedom of press and you had pointed to this also in plenty of posts.

Why do you then tend to curtail our freedom of speech and freedom of opinion???

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

The talks of a direct meeting between Putin and Zelenskiy are increasing.

After the "demands" set by Russia for the Ukraine as conditions for previous peace talks to declare the Crimea as Russian (and give up sovereignty ) and recognise the two independent states Lukansk and Donbas, it seems that Russia has given up on these pre-conditions.

The Ukraine representative to the talks has always reiterated that Ukraine will never give up any inch of their sovereignity.

 

I m not sure whether it is good for Zelenskiy to meet in person, Russia might just arrest or kill him...

 

This is just in from 1 hour ago. The rest is a good update for the development of today...

 

 

Talks between Russia and Ukraine to resume after deadly attack on military base

Zelenskiy pushes for meeting with Putin as Moscow draws warnings from Nato after strikes on a major military base close to the alliance’s border

 

Mon 14 Mar 2022

 

Diplomatic efforts to end the war in Ukraine have stepped up, with Ukrainian and Russian negotiators set to resume talks, after Russia attacked a base near the Polish border and fighting raged across the country.

 

A barrage of Russian missiles hit Ukraine’s Yavoriv International Centre for Peacekeeping and Security, a base just 15 miles (25 km) from the Polish border that has previously hosted Nato military instructors, killing 35 people and wounding 134, a Ukrainian official said on Sunday.

 

On Monday morning the violence continued, with shelling of a residential building in the capital killing two.

But hopes of diplomatic progress were raised after Russia and Ukraine gave positive assessments after weekend negotiations.

 

 

“Russia is already beginning to talk constructively,” Ukrainian negotiator Mykhailo Podolyak said in a video online. “I think that we will achieve some results literally in a matter of days.”

 

A Russian delegate to the talks, Leonid Slutsky, was quoted by the RIA news agency as saying they had made significant progress and it was possible the delegations could soon reach draft agreements. Neither side said what these would cover. Three rounds of talks between the two sides in Belarus, most recently last Monday, had focused mainly on humanitarian issues.

 

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said the countries’ delegations have been speaking daily by video link and a clear aim of his negotiators was to “do everything” to arrange for him to meet Putin. “We must hold on. We must fight. And we will win,” Zelenskiy said in a late night video speech. Putin said on Friday there had been some “positive shifts” in the talks but did not elaborate.

 

The talks come after the UK said Russian naval forces had blockaded Ukraine’s Black Sea coast and cut the country off from maritime trade.

 

In an update late Sunday, the UK defence ministry said the “distant blockade” by Russia’s navy had effectively isolated Ukraine from maritime trade and forces continued missile strikes on targets across the country.

 

The ministry also noted that Russia had conducted one amphibious landing in the Sea of Azov and “could look to conduct further such operations in the coming weeks.”

 

The escalation of the conflict to effectively block maritime trade from Ukraine comes as countries stepped up efforts to reach a diplomatic solution to the devastating conflict.

 

Closely watched talks will also be held on Monday between the US and China, as concerns grow over the possibility of Beijing providing support to Putin’s war effort.

 

Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, will meet his Chinese counterpart, Yang Jiechi, in Rome amid reports that Russia has asked China for weapons to bolster its faltering invasion of Ukraine.

 

A spokesperson for the US embassy in Washington, Liu Pengyu, told CNN he had “never heard” of the Russian arms requests, noting that China’s priority was to ensure the situation does not escalate or get out of control.

 

The US will try to persuade China not to supply arms to Russia at the talks which the White House sees as critically important not just for the war in Ukraine but also for the future of the global balance of power.

 

US president Joe Biden and French president Emmanuel Macron underscored in a call on Sunday their commitment to holding Russia accountable for the invasion of Ukraine, the White House said in a statement. Also on Sunday, US secretary of state Antony Blinken and his Ukrainian counterpart, Dmytro Kuleba, discussed diplomatic efforts to stop Russia’s invasion of its neighbour.

In other developments:

 

• Ramzan Kadyrov, the leader of Russia’s Chechnya region, is reportedly in Ukraine alongside Russian forces, according to footage shared by Chechen television channels and posted to Kadyrov’s Telegram account.

• Instagram was reportedly down inside Russia after Russia’s state media and communication regulator, Rozcomnadzor, said the platform would be banned on Sunday night, citing the social networking site “calls for violence against Russians” as the reason behind the embargo.

• A pregnant woman who had been rescued from the bombed Mariupol maternity hospital died, as did her baby, according to AP.

•  

The flurry of diplomacy comes as Russia drew warnings from Nato on Sunday after it escalated its war in Ukraine with strikes on a major military base close to the alliance’s border, killing at least 35 people and injuring 134 more, while a US journalist was killed by Russian forces in a town outside Kyiv.

 

The airstrikes on the Yavoriv base in the far-west of Ukraine came hours after the Kremlin, which said western military equipment destined for Ukrainian forces was being stored at the facility, had described western supply lines into Ukraine as “legitimate targets”.

A Russian military spokesperson claimed that up to 180 “foreign mercenaries and a large consignment of foreign weapons” were destroyed in the attack.

 

Britain said the incident marked a “significant escalation” of the conflict and the proximity of the attack to Poland’s border, less than 10 miles away, prompted the US to warn that any fire, even accidental, on a neighbouring Nato country would trigger a full-force Nato response.

 

Sullivan said the US was consulting allies and in contact with the Kremlin directly to warn against the use of chemical weapons amid fears that Russia may be preparing the ground for the use of them.

 

Describing the bombing of the Yavoriv International Centre for Peacekeeping and Security, Stepan Chuma, 27, an emergency worker who had hurried to the scene with his colleagues, said: “My windows shook. The whole house vibrated. It was dark. The sky lit up with two explosions.”

The attack prompted Zelenskiy, to repeat his pleas for Nato to impose a no-fly zone, and he warned the alliance that it was at risk. “If you don’t close our sky, it is only a matter of time before Russian rockets fall on your territory, on Nato territory,” he said in a video address late last night.

 

The Yavoriv facility hit by Russia on Sunday has previously hosted foreign military trainers from the UK, US and other countries, but it was not clear whether any were at the base. Ukraine held most of its drills with Nato countries there before the invasion, with the last major exercises in September. Nato denied it had any personnel in Ukraine and the Pentagon said its last people had left weeks ago.

 

The attack is thought to be the westernmost carried out by Russia in 18 days of fighting.

 

With Reuters

Edited March 14, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Nonsensical]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:12 PM, Steve5380 said:

it seems to be a free-for-all bashing against America.

How can you said America is not involved at all?  They are the greatest instigator, under the veil of democracy.  It was akin to saying shitting has nothing to do with the Ass. 

 

At least Singapore is safe, citizens do not have to hide any gun in the bedside drawer, unlike your "safe haven". 

[singalion]

 

That video is just some focusing on some speeches of Zelenskiy.

 

However, the reporter is not presenting the actual facts and background.

 

Nato never promised to assist any non NATO member to defend in any attack from a third party.

NATO steps in only when one of their members is attacked by any country.

Ukraine was never a NATO member and not even a NATO associated country.

 

Also, I find the blame on the US wrong or unjustified.

The US sells weapons to various countries in the world. Selling weapons to any country does not equate to defending such country during an attack.

 

Third: Zelenskiy's policy is focused on integrating the Ukraine into the West. As such he will hold such speeches to persuade his own people. It is purely political but it did not represent any fact that NATO or the US had aligned with Ukraine to defend this country against a Russian attack. (due to the simple reason that Ukraine is not a Nato member country).

 

 

 

[singalion]

 

 

Is there any justification for Putin’s war?

Nato invasion, genocide and drug-addled neo-Nazis: we assess whether any of Russia’s claims are valid

 

 

Sun 13 Mar 2022

 

•  

 

Protesters in Berlin hold a giant figure of Vladimir Putin swallowing a map of Ukraine on Sunday. The slogan reads ‘choke on it’. Photograph: John MacDougall/AFP/Getty Images

 

 

Mark Rice-Oxley  @markriceoxley69

Sun 13 Mar 2022 12.46 GMTLast modified on Sun 13 Mar 2022 14.42 GMT

•  

 

Nazis, genocide, Nato, history: Russia has no shortage of apparent justifications for its war in Ukraine.

But are any of them valid? Were Russian speakers endangered in the country’s east? Is Nato’s expansion a material threat to Moscow? Were there cliques of neo-Nazis running amok in Ukraine?

 

We assess whether Russia’s claims justify the invasion of a sovereign country.

Claim: Nato has encircled Russia, directly threatening Russian security, despite assurances that it would not

Since 1991, Nato has absorbed 11 eastern European countries and three former Soviet republics. Even before Vladimir Putin became president in 2000, Russia took a dim view of this. Some say assurances were given to the last Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, that Nato wouldn’t move an inch farther east after German reunification in 1990. But this is hotly disputed.

 

 

Russia’s logic here is shaped by history. “The Russian historical view is that every hundred years or so there’s an invasion from the west,” said Tomas Ries, associate professor at the Swedish national defence college.

“From a Russian military perspective, I can understand that they were worried when Nato was enlarged,” he said, adding nonetheless: “The problem with this argument is that no one in their wildest dreams can imagine the west attacking Russia.”

Then there is the position of the newly independent states that joined Nato. “This wasn’t Nato trying to enlarge, this was countries hammering on the door saying let us in,” Ries said. “From our worldview, these are small countries that have good reason to be afraid of Russia.”

 

Ukrainian pro-EU activists wave flags in Independence Square in Kyiv, 11 December 2013. Photograph: Sergei Grits/AP

 

Was Russia justified in worrying that Ukraine might join Nato? Not really, said Kristin Bakke, a professor in political science at UCL. “For a long time, support for Nato membership in Ukraine was about 30 to 40%,” she notes, adding that far more people wanted simply to remain neutral.

It wasn’t until last year that surveys showed more than half of Ukrainians wanting Nato membership. And by the time 100,000 Russian troops had amassed on the border, that number had risen to close to 60%.

Claim: The west orchestrated the removal of a democratically elected Ukrainian president in 2014, which deepened the crisis

It was the startling flight of Viktor Yanukovych from office, after weeks of demonstrations in Kyiv by pro-western protesters in 2014, that accelerated the crisis in Ukraine.

 

 

The then president of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych chats to Vladimir Putin in Moscow, 17 December 2013. Photograph: Kommersant Photo/Kommersant/Getty Images

Yanukovych favoured closer ties with Russia. Protesters on Maidan square in central Kyiv wanted Ukraine to join the EU. Western powers naturally sympathised with the protesters, but there is no evidence that this movement was anything other than an expression of discontent with an unpopular leader.

“I had friends on Maidan,” said Gustav Gessel, a Berlin-based fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations. “It was neither an assembly of Nazis, nor made by the CIA. It started as a student protest.”

Claim: The Ukrainian side was responsible for the failure of the Minsk peace process

After Russia seized Crimea and supported a secessionist war in eastern Ukraine in 2014 after Yanukovych’s removal, a peace deal of sorts was hammered out in Minsk, under Franco-German mediation.

The agreement provided for a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weaponry, and constitutional reform granting a measure of autonomy to the Donbas republics seeking secession.

But implementation was patchy, with violations on both sides. International monitors had a hard time accessing the separatist republics. Valerie Morkevičius, an expert in the ethics of conflict at Colgate University, New York, said Ukraine did engage in a process of decentralisation, but not to the degree that the Minsk Agreement intended. “The Ukrainians say that would have privileged the Donbas over the rest of Ukraine,” she said.

 

 

An anti-war protester in Moscow last month. Photograph: Kommersant Photo Agency/Rex/Shutterstock

But she added that the Minsk agreement also provided for all foreign military forces to be removed from the area. “Russia never did, but continued to deny that its forces were there.”

Claim: Donbas residents needed saving from a ‘genocide’

“It smells of genocide,” Putin said in 2015, remarking on the unresolved conflict in the east. Right up until last month’s invasion, Putin insisted that Donbas residents needed military intervention to prevent their annihilation.

There is no evidence for this. About 14,000 people were killed on both sides during the 2014 war (in an area then numbering about 4 million people). But deaths slowed to a trickle in the stalemate that ensued. And throughout, Morkevičius says, “there was no indication that Ukraine was targeting people for being Russian-speaking”.

 

 

 

“The Russians say there was a genocide against the Russian population, and there is no evidence for that at all,” Ries added.

Claim: The Russian language and cultural heritage was being erased from modern-day Ukraine

It is a misunderstanding of Ukraine to imagine it split into two with Russian speakers in the east, and Ukrainian speakers in the west. In fact, most people speak both languages. And there are a multitude of other tongues protected by law as well.

 

A new law introduced in 2019 requiring use of Ukrainian in public life and secondary education was seen as anti-Russian in Moscow. It sets Ukrainian language quotas for a range of cultural output, and is not universally popular.

 

“It does promote the use of Ukrainian, but Russia can still be used whenever a citizen asks for it,” Morkevičius said.

 

“Now Russian is only available as primary language through elementary school, so one could point to that and say that’s not entirely fair,” she added. “But in terms of a reason to go to war, it’s not a just cause and there’s no proportionality there.”

Claim: Ukraine is run by drug-addled neo-Nazis, and needs to be denazified

“There are neo-Nazis in Ukraine but they are not in power, just as there are neo-Nazis in Germany but they are not in power,” said Gessel. The far right occupies fewer than 1% of seats in parliament. The president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, is a Russian-speaking centrist of Jewish origin.

 

The neo-Nazi concern almost certainly stems from the reputation of some of the volunteer brigades who fought the separatists in the 2014 war, such as the Azov battalion, which had far-right affiliations. These have since been folded into the Ukrainian national guard.

 

  Volodymyr Zelenskiy is a Russian-speaking centrist of Jewish origin. Photograph: Ukrainian Presidential Press Service/Reuters

 

Putin’s theme of fascists running wild in Ukraine is almost certainly a ploy to revive glorious memories of the “great patriotic war”. “The second world war is a very important part of Putin’s narrative,” Bakke said. “He uses the victory to mobilise people. In Ukraine at the time, there were nationalist groups fighting for Ukrainian independence against the Soviets. They came to be seen as aligned with the Nazis.”

 

As for being drug-addled, while Ukraine does have relatively high rates of opiate abuse, UN data shows it is no worse than Russia.

Claim: When it comes to invading sovereign countries, the west cannot lecture Russia

The Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, used words to this effect on the eve of the Ukraine war, fulminating at western hypocrisy.

 

“It’s an awkward position for the west,” said Ries. “It is true that the US and Nato have used force when they felt they needed to. Sometimes it was justified, as in the Balkans in 1995, but sometimes it very dodgy like in Iraq. From the Russian perspective, I can see how they can make that argument.”

 

Of course, two wrongs don’t make a right. And while there are similarities between Iraq and Ukraine – invasion of sovereign territory, spurious justification, large scale civilian death, no clear plan for endgame – there are differences too.

 

“Volodymyr Zelenskiy is a democratically elected leader, who has not committed human rights abuses,” Bakke said. “What is also different is President Putin’s stated dismissal of Ukraine’s right to exist as a sovereign state.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/13/is-there-any-justification-for-putins-war

 

The maps are best viewed in the link above...

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/13/2022 at 8:53 PM, Steve5380 said:

A crazy terrorist individual who walks into a mall with a AK-47 and kills dozens of people becomes a criminal and is prosecuted,  even if he has not signed any agreement against the use of AK-47s.

Another false comparison. The thread has nothing to do with crazy individual terrorists. The law of a country takes care of such people. There is no worldwide international treaty that penalizes countries illegally invading others like Iraq, Afghanistan and Ukraine or illegally dropping all manner of bombs. The US can drop the MOAB in Afghanistan and no one gives a damn. Moral outrage is of little use when there are no sheriffs around to keep the offenders from offending.

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 9:10 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

Another false comparison. The thread has nothing to do with crazy individual terrorists. The law of a country takes care of such people. There is no worldwide international treaty that penalizes countries illegally invading others like Iraq, Afghanistan and Ukraine or illegally dropping all manner of bombs. The US can drop the MOAB in Afghanistan and no one gives a damn. Moral outrage is of little use when there are no sheriffs around to keep the offenders from offending.

 

It is a good comparison.

 

The crazy terrorist will be prosecuted, not because he didn't sign anything against AK-47  (they are not prohibited in the US now, unfortunately),  but because he will be overpowered by the good guys and put in jail.  And beyond the law of the country he will be punished because human moral calls for.

 

When Germany was defeated in WWII,  the Allies created and seated the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg and prosecuted the Nazi war criminals and executed their sentences.  There were no other international courts and tribunals at the time, no adherence or signatures were needed.

 

Today we have the ICC and other international courts integral to the UN that uphold international law.  If interested,  have a look here:

 

https://research.un.org/en/docs/law/courts

 

So at any moment an "International Military Tribunal for Russia" could be established.  But to have a tribunal is not sufficient.  The criminals also need to be apprehended.  If Putin does not succeed in Ukraine no one will come to his residence and apprehend him.  He would have to be toppled by his own cronies or the people of Russia.  However, if condemned by some tribunal,  he will not be able to stick his nose anywhere outside Russia and its allies, or risk being arrested.

 

 

[Guest Re re]

If you bring the US into the thread than please be prepared to expect us to state our point of view on the US.

Strangely, when something critical is said on the US then you directly call it "US bashing".

 

We are people here of different origins and nationalities .

 

If you are not interested in our opinions, then you are at the wrong place in a political discussion at a discussion Forum.

 

We are not here to just parrot your incessant praises for the US or Biden.

 

I always thought the US lauds itself as giving freedom to speech and freedom of press and you had pointed to this also in plenty of posts.

Why do you then tend to curtail our freedom of speech and freedom of opinion???

[Guest Re re]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:53 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

About the US and the ICC,  I doubt that Biden will oppose the ICC when it finds Putin guilty of war crimes and orders him to be dropped inside of th

 

The US is not a signatory party to the International Criminal Court. As such referring to is for a US American is not persuasive.

Russia is not a signatory also. Ukraine is no party state to the ICC also, this means that the exception when crimes by a non party state are committed in a party state will not apply also.

The ICC may take up proceedings against Russia but it will lack enforcement.

 

[Guest Re re]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

Today we have the ICC and other international courts integral to the UN that uphold international law.  If interested,  have a look here:

 

https://research.un.org/en/docs/law/courts

 

So at any moment an "International Military Tribunal for Russia" could be established.  But to have a tribunal is not sufficient.  The criminals also need to be apprehended.  If Putin does not succeed in Ukraine no one will come to his residence and apprehend him.  He would have to be toppled by his own cronies or the people of Russia.  However, if condemned by some tribunal,  he will not be able to stick his nose anywhere outside Russia and its allies, or risk being arrested.

 

Only little relevance. 

You didn't do your homework. 

 

The US is not a signatory party to the International Criminal Court. As such referring to is for a US American is not persuasive.

Russia is not a signatory also. Ukraine is no party state to the ICC also, this means that the exception when crimes by a non party state are committed in a party state will not apply also.

The ICC may take up proceedings against Russia but it will lack enforcement.

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 9:58 AM, Guest Re re said:

If you bring the US into the thread than please be prepared to expect us to state our point of view on the US.

Strangely, when something critical is said on the US then you directly call it "US bashing".

 

We are people here of different origins and nationalities .

 

If you are not interested in our opinions, then you are at the wrong place in a political discussion at a discussion Forum.

 

We are not here to just parrot your incessant praises for the US or Biden.

 

I always thought the US lauds itself as giving freedom to speech and freedom of press and you had pointed to this also in plenty of posts.

Why do you then tend to curtail our freedom of speech and freedom of opinion???

 

Don't worry.   You have the right to write everything you want about the US.  And I don't mind it.   I am just an insignificant member here who has no influence and simply exercise my own freedom of opinion.  If my opinion is different from yours, this has to do with my own experience and the fact that the US is my country.  Would you not defend your country Singapore if it is bashed and put down?

 

Here we can both exercise our freedoms of opinion.  My opinions are not as popular here as yours,  this is all.

 

And I am interested in your opinions.  It stimulates my curiosity in researching the subject more,  I am not an expert in wars.  I recognize that I have only a glimpse into what can be the reality of the subject, the history of the conflict, etc.  In this regard,  I am not different from all of you,  including this member who post long dissertations about what he reads.

.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

Shame,  shame,  shame !!  It seems that Russia has asked China for military support in its fight with Ukraine. 

 

Has Russia become such a wussy, fearful, wimpy country that it seeks assistance from its bigger neighbor to its south, which has nearly ten times its population?  ...  to fight its much weaker neighbor to its west?

 

I learned these days that Russia's population is not so much larger than Japan's:  144 million vs. 126 million.  And it is not even so large compared with Germany's population of  83 million. 

 

So for every  1 Japanese, there is 1.14 Russian.  And my (personal) estimation  is that 1 Japanese is more valuable than 1.14 Russian.  Similarly, for 1 German,  there is 1.73 Russian.  Here I am not certain who has more value, ha ha.  

 

It seems probable that Russia and China would partner together in a global conflict.  But there is another variable:  India.  With a comparable population to China,  the Indian state has traditionally kept good relations with Russia and China.  But lately their friendship with China has started to deteriorate over their border clashes. 

 

Of course I am totally ignorant,  but I would imagine that Xi Jinping would think it twice before embarking with Russia in a world war against NATO and its allied countries.  Time will tell...

.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Steve5380