Ukraine invasion by Russia Discussion and it's impact on Singapore and Asia? (compiled)

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

What on earth have the relative population sizes of Japan and Russia to do with anything in this war? Japan is not involved in the war. Japan’s Constitution specifically prohibits the country from going to war. Or maybe that is also new to you.

 

On that issue, why on earth would India join the war? It’s clearly perfectly happy sitting on the sidelines. Sure it has nuclear weapons but do you seriously believe these contribute anything the Russians don’t already have? Sanctions could cripple India. It will certainly not want to upset the West. 
 

China is a different matter. Xi is clearly embarrassed by Russia’s failure to get the war over quickly. He cannot afford the West sanctioning his country, the more so with yet more cities being locked down due to Covid. Besides, while he no doubt is happy to keep the West guessing, his ultimate aim is reunification with Taiwan. If Russia wins and occupies Ukraine, that goal is going to be much more difficult for China should it plan to resort to force over Taiwan. Xi surely has absolutely nothing to gain from the Ukraine conflict getting much worse.

[Guest Wtf]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:02 AM, Steve5380 said:

Shame,  shame,  shame !!  It seems that Russia has asked China for military support in its fight with Ukraine. 

 

Has Russia become such a wussy, fearful, wimpy country that it seeks assistance from its bigger neighbor to its south, which has nearly ten times its population?  ...  to fight its much weaker neighbor to its west?

 

I learned these days that Russia's population is not so much larger than Japan's:  144 million vs. 126 million.  And it is not even so large compared with Germany's population of  83 million. 

 

So for every  1 Japanese, there is 1.14 Russian.  And my (personal) estimation  is that 1 Japanese is more valuable than 1.14 Russian.  Similarly, for 1 German,  there is 1.73 Russian.  Here I am not certain who has more value, ha ha.  

 

It seems probable that Russia and China would partner together in a global conflict.  But there is another variable:  India.  With a comparable population to China,  the Indian state has traditionally kept good relations with Russia and China.  But lately their friendship with China has started to deteriorate over their border clashes. 

 

Of course I am totally ignorant,  but I would imagine that Xi Jinping would think it twice before embarking with Russia in a world war against NATO and its allied countries.  Time will tell...

.

why are you ranking the value of people based on their nationality? You will argue that this is a joke but it is really in poor taste.

 

the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, just like you are not Donald Trump…

 

the invasion of Ukraine is a disgusting act perpetuated by a dictator who is enabled by a group of the elite who are either so sycophantic, scared or similarly cruel that they support his recklessness. The ordinary Russian people are living under autocratic rule, without access to free information and are having their children serve the meat grinder of the Russian army.

 

Of course there will be some Russian people who support the war, some who say they do because they are too scared to do otherwise and a few who are brave enough to make their voice heard in protest. Your generalizations and judgements about the value of people based on their nationality is a quick way to racism and fascism. 

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 7:05 PM, Guest Wtf said:

why are you ranking the value of people based on their nationality? You will argue that this is a joke but it is really in poor taste.

 

the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, just like you are not Donald Trump…

 

the invasion of Ukraine is a disgusting act perpetuated by a dictator who is enabled by a group of the elite who are either so sycophantic, scared or similarly cruel that they support his recklessness. The ordinary Russian people are living under autocratic rule, without access to free information and are having their children serve the meat grinder of the Russian army.

 

Of course there will be some Russian people who support the war, some who say they do because they are too scared to do otherwise and a few who are brave enough to make their voice heard in protest. Your generalizations and judgements about the value of people based on their nationality is a quick way to racism and fascism. 

 

What makes you the judge of my personal opinions, of which you know practically nothing?

 

This thread is not a debate about sociology.  We deal here with militaristic issues, and by extension, the power of different nations.  And the power of a nation is naturally related to the capacity, the value, the power of the individuals who make up the nation. I have a high respect for the Japanese individual.  This nation, small in extension, has one of the most powerful economies in the world,  far superior to Russia's economy with all the land and resources Russia has.  The civic sense of the Japanese is admirable.  They are a full democracy, with a king (an emperor) who like in the UK is purely ceremonial.  Japan has made of its small land much more than Russia has made of its big land.  Japan has renounced to military attack forces,  compared to Russia which has amassed more nuclear warheads than any other country.  This is why for the purpose of this topic I find that a Japanese has more value than a Russian.   But this is my personal opinion.  You may like it or not, but please respect the opinion of others without calling them racists or fascists.

.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Steve5380

[Guest The Art of War]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:02 AM, Steve5380 said:

Shame,  shame,  shame !!  It seems that Russia has asked China for military support in its fight with Ukraine. 

 

What is so shameful about?  The enemy of your enemy is actually your friend.  

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:09 PM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

 

China is a different matter. Xi is clearly embarrassed by Russia’s failure to get the war over quickly. He cannot afford the West sanctioning his country, the more so with yet more cities being locked down due to Covid. Besides, while he no doubt is happy to keep the West guessing, his ultimate aim is reunification with Taiwan. If Russia wins and occupies Ukraine, that goal is going to be much more difficult for China should it plan to resort to force over Taiwan. Xi surely has absolutely nothing to gain from the Ukraine conflict getting much worse.

 

 

Why should Xi be embarrassed by what Russia does?  China does not seem to have anything to fear from Russia.  China does not need to get involved in the Russia-Ukraine war at all.   And China has no reasons to become an enemy of the West. It has benefitted enormously with its economic ties with it,  it has a lot invested in the US,  and it can withstand very well all the human rights criticisms he receives from the West.

 

Its only downfall is its sickening ambition to take possession of Taiwan.  This is evidence of what defective humans the leaders of China are.  They should have a rule to appoint only wise seniors as their leaders, with a minimum age of 78 years!  Yes sir!  78 years is a guarantee of wiseness.

 

Why mentioning India and Japan?   The specter of a World War III comes up frequently here, and powerful nations cannot be excluded from a conversation about a WORLD war.    What is the problem with this?

.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:14 PM, Guest The Art of War said:

What is so shameful about?  The enemy of your enemy is actually your friend.  

 

I was about to write the same thing:  "the enemy of your enemy is actually your friend".   This is not where the shame lies. 

 

The shame is in this alleged big powerful nation Russia, so proud of his might,  that in a confrontation with a far less powerful neighbor,  has to call for a big daddy China to hold his hand.  

[Guest Big Picture Guy]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:22 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

confrontation with a far less powerful neighbor,  has to call for a big daddy China to hold his hand.  

This so-called less powerful neighbour, has the greatest might of Western Europe and North America doing all the dirty works to sanction a nation it has provoked.   Small, with big guns is still small?

 

On 3/15/2022 at 11:19 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Its only downfall is its sickening ambition to take possession of Taiwan.

You wanted your left arm to be detached from your body?  Indeed it sounds sickening, but who knows you have weired sense of amputating every part of you which deemed unfit. 

[Guest Wtf]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:03 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

What makes you the judge of my personal opinions, of which you know practically nothing?

 

This thread is not a debate about sociology.  We deal here with militaristic issues, and by extension, the power of different nations.  And the power of a nation is naturally related to the capacity, the value, the power of the individuals who make up the nation. I have a high respect for the Japanese individual.  This nation, small in extension, has one of the most powerful economies in the world,  far superior to Russia's economy with all the land and resources Russia has.  The civic sense of the Japanese is admirable.  They are a full democracy, with a king (an emperor) who like in the UK is purely ceremonial.  Japan has made of its small land much more than Russia has made of its big land.  Japan has renounced to military attack forces,  compared to Russia which has amassed more nuclear warheads than any other country.  This is why for the purpose of this topic I find that a Japanese has more value than a Russian.   But this is my personal opinion.  You may like it or not, but please respect the opinion of others without calling them racists or fascists.

.

why would I (or anyone) respect this opinion of yours and not call it out for what it is?
 

so, by your ‘logic’, those from countries with smaller economies are worth less than those from countries with bigger economies? Where do people from asean countries fit in your measurements of the value of people? 
 

anyway, I know from your track record that you will just keep doubling down on your dumbness and I don’t want to derail this thread by going off topic, so I will leave it at that. 

[singalion]

A) China pre-informed on Russia's plans

As to now there is no evidence for China having had knowledge of Russia's plans to attack and invade Ukraine.

 

From my personal assumption I don't think Putin had  told anything to Xi, because there would always be a leak.

Putin probably did not even share his own plans to his inner circle because then those oligarchs would have shifted their monies also as the Russian central bank that has about 50% of their assets frozen.

Putin probably never said anything concrete but just ordered certain directions (moving the military to the Ukraine border, lower the gas and oil reserves in Europe or not to refill to usual amounts etc etc.

 

B) Military support by China?

There is also no information that China is supporting Russia with military equipment.

I don't think Russia would be interested in Chinese weapons.

 

C) Can China assisst to bypass the sanctions for Russia?

China can provide assistance through their own Swift system called CIPS but I just read that CIPS has not the communication system as Swift and most communicated with Swift while even using CIPS.

Further, Russia would require to transfer their Rubel currency into Reminbi which means not only currency transfer rate issues but also that China would govern Russian monetary policies. 

Russia has a copy of Swift for their internal transactions but it doesn't work overseas.

Main argument against China offering to bypass sanctions with CIPS is that China has also plenty of USD transfers or requirements and it would backlash to China.

 

D) Why was there a Russia - China alignment?

The reason why Russia was aligning with China (vice versa) in my view is more to build a front against the Western initiatives that bother China (and Russia) such as free media, human rights violations, protective economic policies. The same as the Western countries "stick" together on their goals, the Anti-Western sought to align also.

In the years after the WWII there was a major part with the Non aligned Movement (India) who sought not to be pulled into the Cold War differences.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

Anyhow I think we should get back to the topic of the Ukraine - Russia war and not respond to Steve's diversions of the topic.

 

Steve is free to open a thread to discuss any general political world issues...the East West Divide or who knows what...

Edited March 15, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Guest]

 

On 3/15/2022 at 8:05 AM, Guest Wtf said:

why are you ranking the value of people based on their nationality? You will argue that this is a joke but it is really in poor taste.

 

the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, just like you are not Donald Trump…

 

the invasion of Ukraine is a disgusting act perpetuated by a dictator who is enabled by a group of the elite who are either so sycophantic, scared or similarly cruel that they support his recklessness. The ordinary Russian people are living under autocratic rule, without access to free information and are having their children serve the meat grinder of the Russian army.

 

Of course there will be some Russian people who support the war, some who say they do because they are too scared to do otherwise and a few who are brave enough to make their voice heard in protest. Your generalizations and judgements about the value of people based on their nationality is a quick way to racism and fascism. 

 

 

Just like how 61% of Singaporeans put in a singe "ownself check ownself" party to run the government all these years, you want to know who put Vladimir Putin and his "elites" into the Parliament in the 2018 Russian presidential election on 18 March 2018? Answer: 77% of the Russian!

 

So yeah, even if you want to say that the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, 77% of the Russians created the problem by putting the demon there! 

[Guest Faked News from West]

On 3/15/2022 at 2:27 PM, singalion said:

A) China pre-informed on Russia's plans

 

B) Military support by China?

 

 

They were fake news propaganded by the west to pre-empt China from being pro-Russia.   The western willy fox have the habbit of poking someone before the war started and then later cry foe about war.  I am done with America. 

[singalion]

On 3/15/2022 at 2:52 PM, Guest Faked News from West said:

They were fake news propaganded by the west to pre-empt China from being pro-Russia.   The western willy fox have the habbit of poking someone before the war started and then later cry foe about war.  I am done with America. 

 

But surprisingly Putin met with Xi on the opening of the Olympic games...

That gave rise to suspicion.

While I personally think that Putin having "pre-warned" China on his invasion plans would have been stupid (as he would not have been able to control the information any longer = leak).

 

 

Also Putin and Xi have quite often . Somewhere it said both met at least over 30 times the past 5 years.

 

The fact that China is opposing sanctions in general is in my personal view not "that sanctions are futile" but because China fears to be covered with world wide sanctions itself one day (when it oversteps acceptable lines)...

 

There is also a sort of hypocrisy by China, just look at China's approach towards Australia.

Isn't that a sort of sanction also???

There are other examples with African countries when there was a policy change.

Another good example is Sri Lanka.

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/14/2022 at 2:17 PM, Guest Stupid US Resident said:

 

Yah, you could enjoy all the freedom you want in the US. In Singapore,  there are no tent cities around,  no drug addicts roaming in the streets, no mob to beat or rob elderly Asians, no homeless people who push Asians onto train tracks for no reason. Except for one horrific tragic incident where one young student killed his peer which shocked the entire nation here, there are no regularly gun massacres in our schools here unlike the US. People here can walk freely and safely around without having to arms themselves or fear of being killed senselessly in the gun exchanges between gangs or the police or lunatics who enjoy shooting people  randomly. 

 

While racial harmony is still work in progress here, we don't have deep seated racial discrimination unlike the US where black discrimination is inherently presently in the society despite the emancipation of the Blacks during civil war centuries ago. Also our infrastructure is superior compared to USA's third world infrastructure cos our government do spend on them to improve the lives of people  here unlike US who spent trillions of dollars not to improve the lives of its citizens but on defence and military arms to wage wars  on countries who disagree with its ideology.

 

Hell yeah, you could stay in your beloved US for all you like, I wouldn't give a shit to the US. Just counting the days for another inevitable civil war to happen  in the US. Long overdue! 

 

 

I wouldn't subcribe to all what you painted here. Might be a bit too rosy also.

 

I admit level of "serious" crime in Singapore is much lower compared to plenty of countries and surely the US. Probably what helps in reducing the serious crime is the issue of getting gun weapons in Singapore. It is near to impossible.

 

On social situation:

Actually, if you walk around certain areas, there are also quite a number of homeless elderly people or other drop outs in Singapore who sleep on the streets. (Yes, in the US the amount is probably higher).

There is also a growing number of long term unemployment for certain sectors, where the government is just starting to implement new measures to "re-train" certain employees to be fit for new sectors and to leave their dying industrial sectors behind.

Don't forget, info on certain social issues in Singapore is not available or published.

 

On the racial thing. There might not be any racial discrimination from the top but at the surface there still is a lot.

Even BW reflects this very well. Probably is someone talked more often on the minorities then you would get a different picture also.

 

If you ask why creativity  or economic initiative in Singapore is not at the Western standards you will probably find the answers or know the answers. That is what lacks.

I am also not sure if restrictive policies benefit to increase initiatives.

 

The biggest problem for the US is in my view the "deep seated" ignorance.

We can ask again who are the worst when it comes to carbon emissions and what the carbon footprint is.

If you calculate it towards a per person carbon footprint...

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Guest]

First, you want to tell others not to "respond to Steve's diversions of the topic"...

 

On 3/15/2022 at 2:30 PM, singalion said:

Anyhow I think we should get back to the topic of the Ukraine - Russia war and not respond to Steve's diversions of the topic.

 

Steve is free to open a thread to discuss any general political world issues...the East West Divide or who knows what...

 

... then you go blabber on and on about the issues in USA? 

 

On 3/15/2022 at 3:27 PM, singalion said:

 

I wouldn't subcribe to all what you painted here. Might be a bit too rosy also.

 

I admit level of "serious" crime is much lower compared to plenty of countries and surely the US. Probably what helps in reducing the serious crime is the issue of getting gun weapons in Singapore. It is near to impossible.

 

On social situation:

Actually, if you walk around certain areas, there are also quite a number of homeless elderly people or other drop outs in Singapore who sleep on the streets. (Yes, in the US the amount is probably higher).

There is also a growing number of long term unemployment for certain sectors, where the government is just starting to implement new measures to "re-train" certain employees to be fit for new sectors and to leave their dying industrial sectors behind.

Don't forget, info on certain social issues in Singapore is not available or published.

 

On the racial thing. There might not be any racial discrimination from the top but at the surface there still is a lot.

Even BW reflects this very well. Probably is someone talked more often on the minorities then you would get a different picture also.

 

If you ask why creativity  or economic initiative in Singapore is not at the Western standards you will probably find the answers or know the answers. That is what lacks.

I am also not sure if restrictive policies benefit to increase initiatives.

 

The biggest problem for the US is in my view the "deep seated" ignorance.

We can ask again who are the worst when it comes to carbon emissions and what the carbon footprint is.

If you calculate it towards a per person carbon footprint...

 

 

 

You know what, you hypocrite? Just like how "Steve is free to open a thread to discuss any general political world issues...the East West Divide or who knows what...", you can do the same too! Go Fxxx Off! 

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:03 AM, Steve5380 said:

 I have a high respect for the Japanese individual.  This nation, small in extension, has one of the most powerful economies in the world,  far superior to Russia's economy with all the land and resources Russia has.  The civic sense of the Japanese is admirable.  They are a full democracy, with a king (an emperor) who like in the UK is purely ceremonial.  Japan has made of its small land much more than Russia has made of its big land.  Japan has renounced to military attack forces,  compared to Russia which has amassed more nuclear warheads than any other country.  This is why for the purpose of this topic I find that a Japanese has more value than a Russian.   But this is my personal opinion.  You may like it or not, but please respect the opinion of others without calling them racists or fascists.

I don’t call you a racist or a fascist. But I do call you weak on your history and as shown above you sometimes propagate misguided or downright wrong ideas which could easily have been pre-checked by anyone serious about the subject. And then you just double down as others have pointed out.

 

Now you propagate another. You say Japan is a full democracy. It isn’t. Sure it has elections and all that. The Japanese certainly enjoy individual freedoms they never had pre WWII. Collectively though it is still a country where the individual gives way to and is much less important than the group.
 

How come one party has been in power ever since its founding in 1955 apart from two periods totalling just 5 years? Free press? Not if you want access to government department briefings. Generally, the country is more of a right wing dictatorship that has still not entirely thrown off its old pre-war thinking - other than the Constitutional requirement that it not resort to war and that the emperor is just another human being and not a god.

[Guest Wtf]

On 3/15/2022 at 2:47 PM, Guest Guest said:

 

 

 

Just like how 61% of Singaporeans put in a singe "ownself check ownself" party to run the government all these years, you want to know who put Vladimir Putin and his "elites" into the Parliament in the 2018 Russian presidential election on 18 March 2018? Answer: 77% of the Russian!

 

So yeah, even if you want to say that the Russian people are not Vladimir Putin, 77% of the Russians created the problem by putting the demon there! 

Please do go read up about how free and fair Russian elections are. 

[Guest Guest]

Ukraine invasion by Russia and it's impact on Asia? Can someone tell me just how disgusting and SHAMEFUL this is...????? 

 

 

Thank goodness someone mentioned in the comments section that the PRCs have been arrested! 

[Guest Guest]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:28 PM, Guest Wtf said:

Please do go read up about how free and fair Russian elections are. 

 

[Guest Wtf]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:06 PM, Guest Guest said:

 

Thanks for trolling your way over here to share this shit and irrelevant gif.
 

Now let the grown ups discuss the actual topic please.

[Guest Guest]

 

On 3/15/2022 at 9:55 PM, Guest Wtf said:

Thanks for trolling your way over here to share this shit and irrelevant gif.
 

Now let the grown ups discuss the actual topic please.

 

 

Oh yeah. People can forget you are a retard and you won't know what the gif meant. 

 

It's amusing how you described yourself as a troll to be over here too. 

[singalion]

We should laud her for this civil courage

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/russia-tv-protest-marina-ovsyannikova-ukraine-war

 

Marina Ovsyannikova expressed deep unease over war in Ukraine before live protest in Channel One news studio. 

 

The Russian television producer who staged an extraordinary anti-war protest live on national television on Monday night outlined her plan to a friend the day before, having become increasingly angry about the Russian invasion, the Guardian has learned.

 

Marina Ovsyannikova burst on to the set of Channel One during the national evening news holding a poster that read “Stop the war. Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.” She was arrested shortly afterwards and has not been heard from since.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-tv-employee-interrupts-news-broadcast-marina-ovsyannikova

 

 

 

[Guest Guest]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:11 AM, singalion said:

We should laud her for this civil courage

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/russia-tv-protest-marina-ovsyannikova-ukraine-war

 

Marina Ovsyannikova expressed deep unease over war in Ukraine before live protest in Channel One news studio. 

 

The Russian television producer who staged an extraordinary anti-war protest live on national television on Monday night outlined her plan to a friend the day before, having become increasingly angry about the Russian invasion, the Guardian has learned.

 

Marina Ovsyannikova burst on to the set of Channel One during the national evening news holding a poster that read “Stop the war. Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.” She was arrested shortly afterwards and has not been heard from since.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-tv-employee-interrupts-news-broadcast-marina-ovsyannikova

 

 

 

 

 

And still, the war wages on despite the Russian protests.....

Who voted Putin into Presidency in the first place? THE RUSSIANS!  

[singalion]

Russia' retaliates: 😂

 

Ukraine latest: Russia bars entry by Biden, Blinken and Hillary Clinton

 

 

Wednesday, March 16 (Tokyo time)

1:00 a.m. Russia bans 13 individuals including U.S. President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton from entering the country, in response to sanctions imposed by Washington on Russian officials.

The move is "in response to a series of unprecedented sanctions banning, among other things, entry into the United States for Russian top officials," according to a Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement quoted by Interfax.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by singalion

[Kenichi]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:11 AM, singalion said:

We should laud her for this civil courage

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/russia-tv-protest-marina-ovsyannikova-ukraine-war

 

Marina Ovsyannikova expressed deep unease over war in Ukraine before live protest in Channel One news studio. 

 

The Russian television producer who staged an extraordinary anti-war protest live on national television on Monday night outlined her plan to a friend the day before, having become increasingly angry about the Russian invasion, the Guardian has learned.

 

Marina Ovsyannikova burst on to the set of Channel One during the national evening news holding a poster that read “Stop the war. Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.” She was arrested shortly afterwards and has not been heard from since.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-tv-employee-interrupts-news-broadcast-marina-ovsyannikova

 

 

 

 

What a brave woman.

[Steve5380]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:50 PM, Guest Big Picture Guy said:

This so-called less powerful neighbour, has the greatest might of Western Europe and North America doing all the dirty works to sanction a nation it has provoked.   Small, with big guns is still small?

 

You wanted your left arm to be detached from your body?  Indeed it sounds sickening, but who knows you have weired sense of amputating every part of you which deemed unfit. 

 

You should know better.  Sanctions by the greatest mights are not shielding the Ukrainian civilians from the relentless bombings by Russia.  Nor are the Ukrainian returning the fire by relentlessly bombing Russian civilians.   No matter what you say,  there is a tremendous disproportion here.

 

And what about my arm detaching from my body?   At every instant for over 78+ years my arms and other parts of my body have been lovely taken care of,  with full nutrition and complete integration with the whole.  No arm of mine nor any other part would want to be detached.

 

The case of Taiwan is completely different.  Read its history, like in  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan. 

In the 17th century the Dutch colonized Taiwan.  Thereafter one group of Chinese defeated the Dutch and took control of the island.  After a war In the 19th century, the island was ceded to Japan, who kept possession of it until it was defeated by the Allies in WWII.  Chiang Kai-shek, the leader of the Republic of China, recovered Taiwan where he retreated after being pushed out of the mainland,  and he governed Taiwan as an independent state for many years leading to its democratic system in the 1980s. 

 

So, why should the PRC invade and take control of the country of Taiwan that is now a progressive democratic country?  It should now belong to another group of Chinese,  not the PRC. This other group of Chinese don't want to have anything to do with the PRC.  Let me clarify something for your information:

 

If there is a Creator of the Universe, including the little planet earth,  this Creator didn't parcel out the lands on earth to various bidding groups of people,  various races, ethnicities.  The Bible only mentioned him giving Palestine to the Jews, and even this is debatable.  Practically ALL the lands on the planet have bee grabbed by our human race from other creatures and from each other,  in bloody battles of conquest full of violence.   No country on earth has a Property Deed issued by the Creator for the lands it occupies. 

 

A while back the lands on earth belonged to the dinosaurs.  They were exterminated.  When we exterminate ourselves, there may be other life forms who will dominate the earth.  But by then, neither you nor I will be around to worry about.

. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:15 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

I don’t call you a racist or a fascist. But I do call you weak on your history and as shown above you sometimes propagate misguided or downright wrong ideas which could easily have been pre-checked by anyone serious about the subject. And then you just double down as others have pointed out.

 

Now you propagate another. You say Japan is a full democracy. It isn’t. Sure it has elections and all that. The Japanese certainly enjoy individual freedoms they never had pre WWII. Collectively though it is still a country where the individual gives way to and is much less important than the group.
 

How come one party has been in power ever since its founding in 1955 apart from two periods totalling just 5 years? Free press? Not if you want access to government department briefings. Generally, the country is more of a right wing dictatorship that has still not entirely thrown off its old pre-war thinking - other than the Constitutional requirement that it not resort to war and that the emperor is just another human being and not a god.

 

Well,  good that you don't call me a racist or fascist because I am neither.  I am just an intelligent person who makes his own conclusions.   What is the problem with me being weak in history?  My university major is not in history but in engineering.  Most of what I know of history comes from my interest in being a well educated person. 

 

I notice in the discussions here that some members and guests post some impressive information of historic data.  I doubt that you have doctorates in history, though.   I suspect that much of the "knowledge" here comes from a compulsive one-upmanship,  from running to the Internet to find data with which to contradict what another poster has written.  I don't place much value on this.  WE ALL HERE CAN READ,  and therefore we can find and read whatever data, on history or other subjects, is convenient for us to know.  

 

Maybe the "full" can be left off from Japan's democracy.  Its system is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary government, like the UK.  But it is a democracy because members of the government are elected by the people.  There is freedom of speech,  freedom of the press.  And the spirit of the Japanese to put the interest of society above the interest of the individual is a characteristic I respect.  I admired their civic discipline and cooperation when the Fukushima accident happened.  I suspect that the Japanese have more freedom and personal rights than what you have in Singapore.  But this is just my personal opinion, not fully researched, so please don't call me names if you disagree.

.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Steve5380

[Guest Logic huh]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:10 AM, Steve5380 said:

The case of Taiwan is completely different.  Read its history, like in  

 

Hawaii to America is like Taiwan to China.  In fact, Hawaii should be independence since it is so far away from USA. 

 

Now, back to the main topic.  Asia countries are not interested in Europe messy situations.  It is in the survey done recently. 

[Guest Try and see]

On a side note, don't be surprised if you find your devout Christian (both Protestant and Catholic) friend or relative supporting what Putin is doing.

 

This very good article below explains why Putin is invading Ukraine, and why many Christians are supporting him.

I have quoted an excerpt from it in bold below.

 

Basically, to many Christians, this is a war between the anti-gay Christian hero Putin, vs the pro-gay "Anti-Christ" Zelenskyy.

 

 

The support of many of the hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate for President Vladimir Putin’s war against Ukraine is rooted in a form of Orthodox ethno-phyletist religious fundamentalism, totalitarian in character, called Russkii mir orthe Russian world, a false teaching which is attracting many in the Orthodox Church and has even been taken up by the Far Right and Catholic and Protestant fundamentalists.[emphasis mine]

 

The speeches of President Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kirill (Gundiaev) of Moscow (Moscow Patriarchate) have repeatedly invoked and developed Russian world ideology over the last 20 years. In 2014, when Russia annexed the Crimea and initiated a proxy war in the Donbas area of Ukraine, right up until the beginning of the full-fledged war against Ukraine and afterwards, Putin and Patriarch Kirill have used Russian world ideology as a principal justification for the invasion. The teaching states that there is a transnational Russian sphere or civilization, called Holy Russia or Holy Rus’, which includes Russia, Ukraine and Belarus (and sometimes Moldova and Kazakhstan), as well as ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking people throughout the world. It holds that this “Russian world” has a common political centre (Moscow), a common spiritual centre (Kyiv as the “mother of all Rus’’), a common language (Russian), a common church (the Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate), and a common patriarch (the Patriarch of Moscow), who works in ‘symphony’ with a common president/national leader (Putin) to govern this Russian world, as well as upholding a common distinctive spirituality, morality, and culture.

 

Against this “Russian world” (so the teaching goes) stands the corrupt West, led by the United States and Western European nations, which has capitulated to “liberalism”, “globalization”, “Christianophobia”, “homosexual rights” promoted in gay parades, and “militant secularism”. Over and against the West and those Orthodox who have fallen into schism and error (such as Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and other local Orthodox churches that support him) stands the Moscow Patriarchate, along with Vladimir Putin, as the true defenders of Orthodox teaching, which they view in terms of traditional morality, a rigorist and inflexible understanding of tradition, and veneration of Holy Russia.

 

 

Source: https://publicorthodoxy.org/2022/03/13/a-declaration-on-the-russian-world-russkii-mir-teaching/

[Steve5380]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:23 PM, Guest Logic huh said:

Hawaii to America is like Taiwan to China.  In fact, Hawaii should be independence since it is so far away from USA. 

 

Now, back to the main topic.  Asia countries are not interested in Europe messy situations.  It is in the survey done recently. 

 

You fail to see one fundamental difference:  

 

Hawaiians DON"T WANT independence from the US.   They are VERY HAPPY being a part of the US.

 

Taiwanese DON'T WANT to be part of the PRC.  They are VERY HAPPY being independent from the PRC.

 

If Asian countries, like Singapore,  are not interested in Europe messy situations,...  then what is the purpose of this thread? Why is there "impact on Singapore" in it's title?  Why have you so smart Asians never,  never mentioned this "impact"?

[Guest Guest]

People who talks about who wants independence from whom is completely missing the point and have less than a brain cell. The point here is how the bigger powers are forcing their will on the smaller territories. Just like how Russia invaded Ukraine against their will, China will be invading Taiwan against their will soon, no matter who wants independence or is already so.

 

Right now, China is merely taking a page to see what are the reactions of the international community. Because whatever actions, or in this case LACK of actions, by the international community, will be taken as a similar course of action that the international community will take WHEN, not if, China attacks Taiwan. To make it worse, since Taiwan is not even internationally recognized by UN as an independent nation, there can be less international support than what we see for Ukraine WHEN (not if) China attacks Taiwan. So much for the Taiwanese sucking up to the Americans so far. Look at what the Americans done for Ukraine despite all expectations. As a matter of fact, Biden even personally vetoed the transfer of the Polish planes into Ukraine. What more can anyone say to that? If the Taiwanese are going to expect Americans to go to their rescue when China invade Taiwan despite all the empty talk from Biden, they are going to be in a rude shock when the time comes. Pk

 

Just like how Ukraine is not a good place to be in right now, Taiwan will soon be the next place to evacuated from. 

[Guest Logic huh]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:00 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

You fail to see one fundamental difference:  

 

Hawaiians DON"T WANT independence from the US.   They are VERY HAPPY being a part of the US.

 

Taiwanese DON'T WANT to be part of the PRC.  They are VERY HAPPY being independent from the PRC.

 

If Asian countries, like Singapore,  are not interested in Europe messy situations,...  then what is the purpose of this thread? Why is there "impact on Singapore" in it's title?  Why have you so smart Asians never,  never mentioned this "impact"?

Hawaiians are not under any 3rd country influence to be independence.  America are trying to influence Taiwanese to be independence by sending arms and getting international agencies (set up my America) to delude Taiwan into believing it is an independent country.  No Asia countries, other than the western world, rercognised Taiwan as independence.  Now stop postings and come back on 14th April to prove my point. 

 

Back to the topic.  The thread was started by some boring guys to talk about the news of the day, and then an elderly Ang Mo tried to rouse it up.  It is nothing interesting really.  Russia is the winning party cometh 14th April.  Prepare for that celebratory moment in your town. 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:10 AM, Steve5380 said:

If there is a Creator of the Universe, including the little planet earth,  this Creator didn't parcel out the lands on earth to various bidding groups of people,  various races, ethnicities.  The Bible only mentioned him giving Palestine to the Jews, and even this is debatable.  Practically ALL the lands on the planet have bee grabbed by our human race from other creatures and from each other,  in bloody battles of conquest full of violence.   No country on earth has a Property Deed issued by the Creator for the lands it occupies. 

 

Again pointing to religion and bringing religion to the topic when it is totally unnecessary.

Why always need to refer to religion???

 

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:10 PM, Steve5380 said:

The case of Taiwan is completely different.  Read its history, like in  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan

In the 17th century the Dutch colonized Taiwan.  Thereafter one group of Chinese defeated the Dutch and took control of the island.  After a war In the 19th century, the island was ceded to Japan, who kept possession of it until it was defeated by the Allies in WWII.  Chiang Kai-shek, the leader of the Republic of China, recovered Taiwan where he retreated after being pushed out of the mainland,  and he governed Taiwan as an independent state for many years leading to its democratic system in the 1980s. 

 

So, why should the PRC invade and take control of the country of Taiwan that is now a progressive democratic country?

yet again you get your history wrong and try to justify your erroneous facts by comparing Asian lands with US lands. You also bring up red herrings about the Dutch and Spanish which are basically irrelevant. You then, as frequently, post a horribly long Wikipedia entry without drawing readers attention to what you are trying to say! Indeed it seems you did not even read it, especially this part -

 

“Roughly 84 per cent of Taiwan's population are descendants of Han Chinese immigrants from Qing China between 1683 and 1895. Another significant fraction descends from Han Chinese who immigrated from mainland China in the late 1940s and early 1950s. The shared cultural origin combined with several hundred years of geographical separation, some hundred years of political separation and foreign influences, as well as hostility between the rival ROC and PRC have resulted in national identity being a contentious issue with political overtones.”

 

if Taiwan is a separate entity from mainland China how is it that a vast majority of the world’s major powers and the United Nations all disagree? What you want may seem sensible but International law does not agree with you, as you have been told in other threads.

[singalion]

Actually I do not understand Steve's harping on Taiwan.

 

Taiwan has no history of independence and is not recognised as an independent country.

 

There is nobody (not even the Western) who ever reasoned that Taiwan is not a part of China.

 

Referring to some Dutch colonisation of Taiwan in the 17th century did not mean that Taiwan was separated from China (similar to South West Africa being separated from South Africa). In that logic the Maluku islands should be independent also....

 

The Potsdam declaration took Taiwan from Japanese occupation and integrated it into the Chinese Republic. (Oct 1945). The Agreement was made with the Chiang Kai Shek government under the Nationalists.

 

When Mao defeated the Chinese "Nationalists" (Kuomintang) in 1949, they fled onto Taiwan. Truman sent warships to the Taiwan Strait to avoid the communist Mao army to take control of Taiwan.

Since that time the island is separated from Mainland China.

 

In difference to Ukraine, Mainland China has never accepted the independence of Taiwan and sees it as an integral part of China. Since that time the US has "protected" Taiwan from being "returned" to China.

However, for Ukraine, the sovereignty was accepted by Russia (actually twice) in Dec 1991 and 1994.

 

Lastly, Steve omits the fact that Taiwanese would integrate into China, once China would not be ruled by the CCP and human rights and the state of democracy respected. But so far, there is no change in China.

 

However, since the crackdown of liberties in Hong Kong and more or less takeover of Hong Kong by the CCP fewer Taiwanese are looking to be integrated into China. Trust has been further eroded since these events. And further the harsh talk of China in wanting to take over Taiwan by force doesn't help to find a peaceful integration or unification.

 

But historically, there is nothing to say that Taiwan has ever gained independence from China.

 

Steve should really make some bigger efforts in gaining background knowledge on history.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:42 AM, Guest Try and see said:

On a side note, don't be surprised if you find your devout Christian (both Protestant and Catholic) friend or relative supporting what Putin is doing.

 

This very good article below explains why Putin is invading Ukraine, and why many Christians are supporting him.

I have quoted an excerpt from it in bold below.

 

Basically, to many Christians, this is a war between the anti-gay Christian hero Putin, vs the pro-gay "Anti-Christ" Zelenskyy.

 

 

The support of many of the hierarchy of the Moscow Patriarchate for President Vladimir Putin’s war against Ukraine is rooted in a form of Orthodox ethno-phyletist religious fundamentalism, totalitarian in character, called Russkii mir orthe Russian world, a false teaching which is attracting many in the Orthodox Church and has even been taken up by the Far Right and Catholic and Protestant fundamentalists.[emphasis mine]

 

The speeches of President Vladimir Putin and Patriarch Kirill (Gundiaev) of Moscow (Moscow Patriarchate) have repeatedly invoked and developed Russian world ideology over the last 20 years. In 2014, when Russia annexed the Crimea and initiated a proxy war in the Donbas area of Ukraine, right up until the beginning of the full-fledged war against Ukraine and afterwards, Putin and Patriarch Kirill have used Russian world ideology as a principal justification for the invasion. The teaching states that there is a transnational Russian sphere or civilization, called Holy Russia or Holy Rus’, which includes Russia, Ukraine and Belarus (and sometimes Moldova and Kazakhstan), as well as ethnic Russians and Russian-speaking people throughout the world. It holds that this “Russian world” has a common political centre (Moscow), a common spiritual centre (Kyiv as the “mother of all Rus’’), a common language (Russian), a common church (the Russian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate), and a common patriarch (the Patriarch of Moscow), who works in ‘symphony’ with a common president/national leader (Putin) to govern this Russian world, as well as upholding a common distinctive spirituality, morality, and culture.

 

Against this “Russian world” (so the teaching goes) stands the corrupt West, led by the United States and Western European nations, which has capitulated to “liberalism”, “globalization”, “Christianophobia”, “homosexual rights” promoted in gay parades, and “militant secularism”. Over and against the West and those Orthodox who have fallen into schism and error (such as Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and other local Orthodox churches that support him) stands the Moscow Patriarchate, along with Vladimir Putin, as the true defenders of Orthodox teaching, which they view in terms of traditional morality, a rigorist and inflexible understanding of tradition, and veneration of Holy Russia.

 

 

Source: https://publicorthodoxy.org/2022/03/13/a-declaration-on-the-russian-world-russkii-mir-teaching/

 

Pre-Note: To avoid any backlash after I spoke out against bringing up religion to the topic just earlier.

What I meant was bringing into the discussion religion with no reference to the topic such as Steve did. If you look at Steve's post there was no reason to discuss religion or the (if any) creator's plans. 

Here, however, I am just responding to a post that covers the Orthodox patriarch from Russia in direct reference to the Ukraine war on that Guest Try n See's post (which has reference to the topic Ukraine).

 

---------------

But then justification it as "denazification" what Putin does seems the most silly thing what he ever could have done.

 

In fact, after WWII it is a shame for a Russian president to call out a Jewish President of the Ukraine and hit out against the Jewish. Wasn't that exactly the Nazi trait of calling the Jewish the scapegoats for all evil???

 

By the way on a note most of the Oligarchs surrounding Putin and supporting Putin are Jewish or Jewish descent.

Check on it (Rotenberg, Moshe Kantor, Mikhail Fridman, Oleg Deripaska, Viktor Vekselberg and Roman Abramovich, just to name a few).

 

This it totally nonsensical.

It vastly demonstrates on what blurry ground Putin founded his propaganda.

 

For the Russian Orthodox Patriarch , he is simply angry that Ukraine cut off the control of the Russian Orthodox church and build up their own Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch.

What the Russian Orthodox patriarch is doing is medieval.

If you read the article of your link the Christian Church that published this article is speaking out against this.

 

Your labeling of "many Christians" seems extremely wrong.

 

Quote:

Therefore, we reject the “Russian world” heresy and the shameful actions of the Government of Russia in unleashing war against Ukraine which flows from this vile and indefensible teaching with the connivance of the Russian Orthodox Church, as profoundly un-Orthodox, un-Christian and against humanity, which is called to be “justified… illumined… and washed in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God” (Baptismal Rite). Just as Russia has invaded Ukraine, so too the Moscow Patriarchate of Patriarch Kirill has invaded the Orthodox Church, for example in Africa, causing division and strife, with untold casualties not just to the body but to the soul, endangering the salvation of the faithful.

 

 

Don't let some propaganda overcome you.

The whole of Europe is quite Christian. Are they Putin supporters??? Surely, not.

 

I don't think that what you claim "many Christians" are supporting Putin can stand with facts.

There are always a few that admire dictators, even in the West (maybe I can name Donald Trump here?)

 

The Pope clearly spoke out against Putin's invasion, same as Protestant leaders. In fact, the totality of the Christian church is against this war (the only exception is above mentioned Russian Orthodox Patriarch who is the leader of the Russian orthodox church!

The rest voiced against Putin and the war.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Seriously Listening]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:42 AM, Guest Try and see said:

Basically, to many Christians, this is a war between the anti-gay Christian hero Putin, vs the pro-gay "Anti-Christ" Zelenskyy.

 

Issit true Ukranians are pro-LGBT?   Can you back up your statement?  I am all ears and eyes.  If so, all the Russians LGBT should migrate to Ukraine and the gay in Russia should not fight the war for its anti-gay government.  But I still need more evidence that Zelenskyy is gay friendly.

[Guest Don’t Confuse]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:47 PM, Steve5380 said:

I doubt that you have doctorates in history, though.   I suspect that much of the "knowledge" here comes from a compulsive one-upmanship,  from running to the Internet to find data with which to contradict what another poster has written.  I don't place much value on this.  WE ALL HERE CAN READ,  and therefore we can find and read whatever data, on history or other subjects, is convenient for us to know.  Knot accept that your surmised might just be wrong and that Thor of others might be accurate.

There you go again. You just cannot bear the fact that you might be wrong and others might just be right. You have not the faintest idea of the subjects in which I gained my honours and post graduate degrees. But you always assume that those who contradict you have to be wrong and so you lash out at them. In a discussion forum that is just plain stupid, especially when your own knowledge of the subject is more than sketchy.

 

When you attack posters like this do it in your own forum for old men and leave this forum to others.

[Steve5380]

On 3/15/2022 at 2:10 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

If there is a Creator of the Universe, including the little planet earth,  this Creator didn't parcel out the lands on earth to various bidding groups of people,  various races, ethnicities.  The Bible only mentioned him giving Palestine to the Jews, and even this is debatable.  Practically ALL the lands on the planet have bee grabbed by our human race from other creatures and from each other,  in bloody battles of conquest full of violence.   No country on earth has a Property Deed issued by the Creator for the lands it occupies. 

 

A while back the lands on earth belonged to the dinosaurs.  They were exterminated.  When we exterminate ourselves, there may be other life forms who will dominate the earth.  But by then, neither you nor I will be around to worry about.

. 

 

Those of you who read with intelligence surely have noticed that Steve didn't bring religion into the discussion.  There is a difference between DISCUSSING religion and making a sideways REFERENCE to religion out of respect for the readers who are believers.  Steve could as well have written that "there is no law in NATURE that defines WHO should own land on the surface of our planet.  

 

The point is:  one reads a bunch of completely artificial alleged justifications of why Taiwan should be taken by force by the PRC.  Is it because Singapore has a large Chinese population that sides with Xi ?   

 

1.  Identical population:   even if there is not a single gene different between the Chinese in Taiwan and in the mainland, why should identical populations not live in separate countries?  Latin America is full of identical folks who live in separate neighboring countries in reasonably good harmony.  Uruguay is a small country to the east of Argentina.  We are indistinguishable from each other,  yet Argentina is not throwing bombs on Uruguay because it refuses to be part of Argentina. 

 

2. Lack of formal, friendly separation.  What better justification for a separation than the will of the people who rightfully live in the seceded land?  America didn't ask England permission to separate itself from the "mother country".  It simply decided that it wanted to be independent,  and thank God it did so (another reference to Religion that is not a discussion).

 

3. Universal recognition:  This is a purely political issue, so it is unrelated to any logic and sense of justice.  The reason only few nations recognize Taiwan is because the PRC does not accept relations with any nation who does, and the PRC is definitely more powerful and relevant than the ROC.  The US is warming up to formal relationships with Taiwan,  there are mutual consulates in the two countries now.   AND,  very important,  the Vatican recognizes the autonomy of Taiwan.  This means that the Catholic God is accepting Taiwan's independence  (another reference to religion that is not a discussion). 

[Steve5380]

On 3/16/2022 at 8:29 AM, Guest Don’t Confuse said:

There you go again. You just cannot bear the fact that you might be wrong and others might just be right. You have not the faintest idea of the subjects in which I gained my honours and post graduate degrees. But you always assume that those who contradict you have to be wrong and so you lash out at them. In a discussion forum that is just plain stupid, especially when your own knowledge of the subject is more than sketchy.

 

When you attack posters like this do it in your own forum for old men and leave this forum to others.

 

You are not very objective here.  I am the first one to recognize that I can be and actually am wrong sometimes, and that other posters can be wrong as well. 

 

No poster here is attacked more than Steve in this forum.  I have two Ang Mohs,  one living in Singapore, who are after my skin and will criticize every little thing they think I do wrong.  There is a group of intelligent Asians with good spirit of sportsmanship who like to contradict me,  and this latter group I welcome because some inclination to contradict fosters good discussions. 

 

You have my respect for having gained honors and postgraduate degrees in some subjects.  You should respect me for having done the same.   But I have to insist that NOBODY has an absolute knowledge of history.  Simply because history is an open ended field of knowledge towards the past,  and its only limit is the creation of the Universe,  either by a Creator or by the Big Bang,  have your pick.

 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Those of you who read with intelligence surely have noticed that Steve didn't bring religion into the discussion.  There is a difference between DISCUSSING religion and making a sideways REFERENCE to religion out of respect for the readers who are believers.  Steve could as well have written that "there is no law in NATURE that defines WHO should own land on the surface of our planet.  

 

The point is:  one reads a bunch of completely artificial alleged justifications of why Taiwan should be taken by force by the PRC.  Is it because Singapore has a large Chinese population that sides with Xi ?   

 

1.  Identical population:   even if there is not a single gene different between the Chinese in Taiwan and in the mainland, why should identical populations not live in separate countries?  Latin America is full of identical folks who live in separate neighboring countries in reasonably good harmony.  Uruguay is a small country to the east of Argentina.  We are indistinguishable from each other,  yet Argentina is not throwing bombs on Uruguay because it refuses to be part of Argentina. 

 

2. Lack of formal, friendly separation.  What better justification for a separation than the will of the people who rightfully live in the seceded land?  America didn't ask England permission to separate itself from the "mother country".  It simply decided that it wanted to be independent,  and thank God it did so (another reference to Religion that is not a discussion).

 

3. Universal recognition:  This is a purely political issue, so it is unrelated to any logic and sense of justice.  The reason only few nations recognize Taiwan is because the PRC does not accept relations with any nation who does, and the PRC is definitely more powerful and relevant than the ROC.  The US is warming up to formal relationships with Taiwan,  there are mutual consulates in the two countries now.   AND,  very important,  the Vatican recognizes the autonomy of Taiwan.  This means that the Catholic God is accepting Taiwan's independence  (another reference to religion that is not a discussion). 

 

if you read my posts then you can quote them.

 

Don't act like a small sulky kid...

😱 You are an octogenarian soon and behave like a 3 year old.

 

Your word twisting on "discussion" and making reference is futile.

You brought up that notion of religion and creators who didn't parcel out lands.

 

Your point that there is no law in nature that defines who owns land on this planet is wishful thinking.

Why do we need to carry passports and cannot just go where we want on this planet?

And what about those atheists who don't believe there is any god or follow any religion at all?

 

Please spare us with such nonsensical childish defences.

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

The point is:  one reads a bunch of completely artificial alleged justifications of why Taiwan should be taken by force by the PRC.  Is it because Singapore has a large Chinese population that sides with Xi ?   

 

Mere speculation.

Anyhow I did not see anyone here supporting China to take Taiwan by force.

All reasonable people would support any peaceful means.

 

Westerners are all dreaming of China implementing basic liberties of Western Democracies.

 

As long as this is not given. We can wait long for a move of Taiwan.

 

Please do not forget that Asians mostly live under authoritarian conditions and are not used to the Western liberties.

Therefore, they judge the Taiwan - China issue much differently than you or academics from the West.

 

Where are no individual freedoms and human rights, how can you argue with those in the Asian societies?

 

Please do some basic brain work!

 

 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

1.  Identical population:   even if there is not a single gene different between the Chinese in Taiwan and in the mainland, why should identical populations not live in separate countries?  Latin America is full of identical folks who live in separate neighboring countries in reasonably good harmony.  Uruguay is a small country to the east of Argentina.  We are indistinguishable from each other,  yet Argentina is not throwing bombs on Uruguay because it refuses to be part of Argentina. 

 

 

Total simplification.

The make up of Argentina and Uruguay is different.

Argentina had plenty of immigrants from the Middle East as also from Italy, which Uruguay doesn't have so much. Therefore the population fabric is different.

 

As this is disturbing the Ukraine thread I will not go deeper .

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

2. Lack of formal, friendly separation.  What better justification for a separation than the will of the people who rightfully live in the seceded land?  America didn't ask England permission to separate itself from the "mother country".  It simply decided that it wanted to be independent,  and thank God it did so (another reference to Religion that is not a discussion).

 

Ok.

But the world did not recognise the independence of Taiwan. Even the US is not recognising Taiwan as an independent state.

 

If the majority of the UN nations doesn't recognise Taiwan then how?

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:56 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

You are not very objective here.  I am the first one to recognize that I can be and actually am wrong sometimes, and that other posters can be wrong as well. 

 

No poster here is attacked more than Steve in this forum.  I have two Ang Mohs,  one living in Singapore, who are after my skin and will criticize every little thing they think I do wrong.  There is a group of intelligent Asians with good spirit of sportsmanship who like to contradict me,  and this latter group I welcome because some inclination to contradict fosters good discussions. 

 

You have my respect for having gained honors and postgraduate degrees in some subjects.  You should respect me for having done the same.   But I have to insist that NOBODY has an absolute knowledge of history.  Simply because history is an open ended field of knowledge towards the past,  and its only limit is the creation of the Universe,  either by a Creator or by the Big Bang,  have your pick.

 

 

You asked for the scrutiny, you got it.

 

My purpose is just to indicate when you err.

 

You go wrong to take it personal.

Corrections are just meant to set facts into context. 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Objective, unbiased views]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:41 PM, Steve5380 said:

Is it because Singapore has a large Chinese population that sides with Xi ?   

 

Let's be objective here.  American should stop snaking into the same ethnic people and create havoc - thru divide other people nation and than conquer.  

 

Similarly.  Americans have snaked into Ukraine to form a secret Militia group,  outside the Ukraine main military system, to antagonise Russia for many years.   They called themselves the extreme far right underground supermacist, no different from terrorist.  As a result, many russian speaking Ukraine were killed.  Putin stepped in to save those Russian speaking Ukranian but the Western allies screamed invasion.   Similarly,  American raze Aghanistan and Iraq  to the ground because of a few terrorists who attacked American.   So, Russia cannot raze Ukraine to the ground for attacking Russians?

 

How fair is your argument or lack of?  I can understand where you are coming from, very nationalistic as in many warsome countries.  I don't blame you. 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:23 AM, Guest Logic huh said:

Hawaii to America is like Taiwan to China.  In fact, Hawaii should be independence since it is so far away from USA. 

 

Now, back to the main topic.  Asia countries are not interested in Europe messy situations.  It is in the survey done recently. 

 

A better example had been Alaska instead of Hawaii...

 

[singalion]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:06 PM, Guest Objective, unbiased views said:

Let's be objective here.  American should stop snaking into the same ethnic people and create havoc - thru divide other people nation and than conquer.  

 

Similarly.  Americans have snaked into Ukraine to form a secret Militia group,  outside the Ukraine main military system, to antagonise Russia for many years.   They called themselves the extreme far right underground supermacist, no different from terrorist.  As a result, many russian speaking Ukraine were killed.  Putin stepped in to save those Russian speaking Ukranian but the Western allies screamed invasion.   Similarly,  American raze Aghanistan and Iraq  to the ground because of a few terrorists who attacked American.   So, Russia cannot raze Ukraine to the ground for attacking Russians?

 

How fair is your argument or lack of?  I can understand where you are coming from, very nationalistic as in many warsome countries.  I don't blame you. 

 

Unfortunately this is totally not reflected by any facts. 

 

Right wing parties had taken part in the 2013 / 2014 Ukraine Maidan events but they represented a very small fraction of the protesters. 

There is no evidence that the US in any way supported this group. 

 

Since when do Jewish presidents permit to be backed by right wing Neo Nazi groups. This is totally absurd. 

 

The 2014 and 2018 parliamentary elections indicated the low relevance of these groups. 

 

This claim is an invention of Putin to justify his war in Ukraine but has no basis in facts. 

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/01/1083677765/putin-denazify-ukraine-russia-history

 

https://www.adl.org/blog/why-is-putin-calling-the-ukrainian-government-a-bunch-of-nazis

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:06 AM, Guest Objective, unbiased views said:

Let's be objective here.  American should stop snaking into the same ethnic people and create havoc - thru divide other people nation and than conquer.  

 

Similarly.  Americans have snaked into Ukraine to form a secret Militia group,  outside the Ukraine main military system, to antagonise Russia for many years.   They called themselves the extreme far right underground supermacist, no different from terrorist.  As a result, many russian speaking Ukraine were killed.  Putin stepped in to save those Russian speaking Ukranian but the Western allies screamed invasion.   Similarly,  American raze Aghanistan and Iraq  to the ground because of a few terrorists who attacked American.   So, Russia cannot raze Ukraine to the ground for attacking Russians?

 

How fair is your argument or lack of?  I can understand where you are coming from, very nationalistic as in many warsome countries.  I don't blame you. 

 

Objective?

 

What reliable proof you have that America conspired with Ukraine to form "a secret militia group" to antagonize Russia?  How can this "secret military group" antagonize Russia without invading Russia?  Or did it attack the pro-Russian Ukrainians on the east to get the Russian troops to come into their country?   This does not make sense. 

 

Or is it true that the pro-Russian Ukrainians become separatists, wanting to belong again to the "great Russia" without leaving their homes,  and therefore made trouble to have Russian forces cross the border "to protect them"? 

 

Haven't you witnessed the lies of Putin, trying to justify his invasion as a "peacekeeping force to protect these poor pro-Russians terrorized by the Ukrainians" ??,  and then he launched a full scale invasion.

 

If these separatists pro-Russians were so unhappy in Ukraine, they could have sold their lands to the regular Ukrainians and crossed the border into Russia and settled in its vast lands.  

 

If you call me nationalistic, you don't understand at all where I am coming from.  

[Steve5380]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:51 PM, Guest Good Night! said:

OK, OK.  We get your point.  You are worried that Taiwan if absorbed into China, you will not get the chance to visit the Taiwanese Suana  again.  Rest assure, you can still visit the Gay outlets and still able to sucks some cocks even if Taiwan became part of China.  It is not like America, where Gay hate is so rampant and religion is the center of every voilence in the Western world.   China is  pretty safe place.  Hope you can sleep easy now.   
 

 

It is 9:55PM now here,  and soon I will go to bed and sleep like a baby.  Taiwan or not Taiwan, ha ha.

 

There are plenty of good places in Asia where I can have good sex.  My thoughts about Taiwan are not just about their saunas,  but come from an interest to see people happy and successful.  Taiwan has nothing to gain from joining the PRC. 

 

I live in America, so I know how it is life here.  Gay hate is not rampant.  Gay life is worse in Singapore, where gay sex is illegal due to the 377A law,  and same-sex marriage is still an undefined amount of time away.   Religion is also not the center of violence in the western world.  You must be thinking about the Middle East. 

 

Good night.