Taiwan, one of the unresolved issues in East Asia...

[singalion]

Many reports are pointing to the Ukraine war and Russia's invasion telling that China might make a move to conquer Taiwan.

 

What is your idea.

 

Do you think the Taiwan - China issue can be resolved by peaceful means or only forcefully?

 

Will Taiwan ever be a part of China or never ?

 

What move is required to advance the issue?

 

 

[sgmaven]

Well, Europe, North America and their allies can impose punitive sanctions on Russia for their invasion of the Ukraine. What would they be able to do with China, if they decided to invade Taiwan?

[lonelyglobe]

It will be more interesting to see if SG dare to even utter a word not to even mention sanction, ha.... 

[passinthenight]

According to this article, they've been active in the South Pacific instead.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/china-delivered-a-masterstroke-while-the-world-watched-taiwan-20220425-p5aftd.html

 

[Why?]

On 4/26/2022 at 3:55 PM, singalion said:

Many reports are pointing to the Ukraine war and Russia's invasion telling that China might make a move to conquer Taiwan.

 

What is your idea.

 

Do you think the Taiwan - China issue can be resolved by peaceful means or only forcefully?

 

Will Taiwan ever be a part of China or never ?

 

What move is required to advance the issue?

 

 

Russia beat up other people child, the world start to sanction and became an external affair.   China wanted to discipline its own child, what can the world do?  It is China own internal affairs.  The world itself is not perfect, and best is to stop preaching others what to do.  Otherwise, everyone is as guilty as a dictator. 

[sgmaven]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, passinthenight said:

According to this article, they've been active in the South Pacific instead.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/china-delivered-a-masterstroke-while-the-world-watched-taiwan-20220425-p5aftd.html

 

It will be quite interesting to see what comes of this. China has traditionally played only in its home turf, and the surrounding areas, like the South China Sea. More recently, we see them extend their military reach beyond Asia, into Africa and the Pacific. This doesn't sync with the traditional stance of "protecting the Motherland". Is China really intent on becoming a global superpower? Or is this recent move with the Solomon Islands, just to give Australia a slap in the face, for all the anti-China rhetoric?

[sgmaven]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:48 PM, Why? said:

China wanted to discipline its own child, what can the world do?  It is China own internal affairs.

Some would question whether Taiwan can be considered a "child" of China. Is it the child, or the parent? Also, if this child/parent analogy continues, does that mean that none of the colonies in the past, are allowed to rebel against their colonial masters? If there is an uprising within a country, with a region wanting out, does that mean that no one else is allowed to say anything, no matter what are the reasons for the rebellion?

[Why?]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:55 PM, sgmaven said:

Some would question whether Taiwan can be considered a "child" of China. Is it the child, or the parent? 

Taiwan is China legitimate child, also internationally recognised as such. Taiwan passport is proof that it is part of China too.  Its people acknowledged the fact, but also prefer to be self-governing not akin to independence.   China deemed self-governing state is easily influenced by its enemy, from the West, and thus wanted Taiwan be part of the Central Government System. America prefer this will not happen.   If you are the parent of the Child, you can surely understand the fear and rationale behind all these issues. 

[sgmaven]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, Why? said:

Taiwan is China legitimate child, also internationally recognised as such. Taiwan passport is proof that it is part of China too.  Its people acknowledged the fact, but also prefer to be self-governing not akin to independence.   China deemed self-governing state is easily influenced by its enemy, from the West, and thus wanted Taiwan be part of the Central Government System. America prefer this will not happen.   If you are the parent of the Child, you can surely understand the fear and rationale behind all these issues. 

You are just a believer in what the PRC's stance is. However, if you ask the majority of Taiwanese, they do not see it that way. You may find support amongst those who came from the Mainland provinces, when the KMT retreated to Taiwan, but not amongst those who grew up on the island. For much of Taiwanese history, the island was very much forgotten by the Chinese. In fact, more was probably done in way of civil infrastructural development by the Japanese, when Formosa was a colony of the Japanese empire. So much for your thinking of legitimacy...

[singalion]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, passinthenight said:

According to this article, they've been active in the South Pacific instead.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/china-delivered-a-masterstroke-while-the-world-watched-taiwan-20220425-p5aftd.html

 

 

On 4/26/2022 at 5:48 PM, sgmaven said:

It will be quite interesting to see what comes of this. China has traditionally played only in its home turf, and the surrounding areas, like the South China Sea. More recently, we see them extend their military reach beyond Asia, into Africa and the Pacific. This doesn't sync with the traditional stance of "protecting the Motherland". Is China really intent on becoming a global superpower? Or is this recent move with the Solomon Islands, just to give Australia a slap in the face, for all the anti-China rhetoric?

 

 

but the response from the US came quite fast...

 

 

US won’t rule out military action if China establishes base in Solomon Islands

Ambassador Daniel Kritenbrink warns security pact presents ‘potential regional security implications’

 

Guardian, Tue 26 Apr 2022

 

One of the most senior US officials in the Pacific has refused to rule out military action against Solomon Islands if it were to allow China to establish a military base there, saying that the security deal between the countries presented “potential regional security implications” for the US and other allies.

Ambassador Daniel Kritenbrink, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, was part of a high-level US delegation to the Pacific country last week.

 

He said the US team, which also included the National Security Council coordinator for Indo-Pacific affairs, Kurt Campbell, had a 90-minute “constructive and candid” meeting with prime minister Manasseh Sogavare in which the US team detailed concerns about its recently signed security deal with China.

 

“We wanted to outline for our friends in the Solomons, what our concerns are,” said Kritenbrink. “Prime minister Sogavare indicated that in the Solomon Islands’ view, the agreement they’ve concluded has solely domestic implications. But we’ve made clear that there are potential regional security implications of the agreement not just for ourselves, but for allies and partners across the region.”

On Tuesday, Kritenbrink reiterated the US’s willingness to act in the region if a military base were established by China.

“Of course, we have respect for the Solomon Islands sovereignty, but we also wanted to let them know that if steps were taken to establish a de facto permanent military presence, power projection capabilities, or a military installation, then we would have significant concerns, and we would very naturally respond to those concerns,” he said.

 

When asked what that response could involve, he said: “Look, I’m not going to speculate and I’m not in a position to talk about what the United States may or may not do in such a situation.”

 

Pressed on whether he would rule out the prospect of the US taking military action against Solomon Islands were a naval base to be established, and, if not, whether he was comfortable with Australian prime minister Scott Morrison’s talk of the base being a “red line” for Australia, he said: “I don’t have a lot to add beyond what I’ve already stated.”

 

In a statement last week, the Biden administration said the US would “respond accordingly” if China was allowed to establish a long-term presence on the islands, while noting assurances from Sogavare that he had no intention of allowing a military base.

 

The rhetoric escalated in the wake of the statement, with the Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison, saying Australia had “the same red line” as the US when it came to China’s involvement in Solomon Islands, and defence minister Peter Dutton using his Anzac Day address on Monday to declare: “Australia should prepare for war”, claiming that China was “on a very deliberate course at the moment”.

 

Kritenbrink also noted China’s military ambitions, saying: “I think it’s important in this context, to keep in mind that we do know that the PRC [People’s Republic of China] is seeking to establish a more robust overseas logistics and basic infrastructure that would allow the PLA [People’s Liberation Army] to project and sustain military power at greater distances. So we wanted to have that candid conversation with our friends in the Solomons. We outlined our concerns … and we’ve indicated that we’ll continue to monitor the situation closely and continue to engage with them going forward.”

 

 

The text of the security deal which was signed by China and Solomon Islands is secret, though Solomon Islands MPs have called for the prime minister to release it publicly.

 

“I think it’s clear that only a handful of people in a very small circle have seen this agreement. And the prime minister himself has been quoted publicly as saying he would only share the details with China’s permission, which I think is a source of concern as well,” said Kritenbrink.

 

However, a draft of the deal was leaked on social media last month and contained provisions permitting China to “make ship visits to, carry out logistical replenishment in, and have stopover and transition in Solomon Islands”.

 

Kritenbrink said that “the United States of America is not in the business of asking countries to choose between the United States and China or anyone else”. But that it is interested in promoting “a proactive vision for again the shared interests and principles that we believe are vital to all of our friends across the region”.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by singalion

[sgmaven]

The million dollar question is whether China will really build a military base on the Solomon Islands...

[singalion]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:48 PM, sgmaven said:

It will be quite interesting to see what comes of this. China has traditionally played only in its home turf, and the surrounding areas, like the South China Sea. More recently, we see them extend their military reach beyond Asia, into Africa and the Pacific. This doesn't sync with the traditional stance of "protecting the Motherland". Is China really intent on becoming a global superpower? Or is this recent move with the Solomon Islands, just to give Australia a slap in the face, for all the anti-China rhetoric?

 

I think it is more power play of a feels to be upcoming power to show the world how China has developed from an underdeveloped country to a real world power.

 

What I assume is, that the Solomon pact will just fail.

What is involved?

 

Corruption? Debts by the Salomon islands to China?

 

Sri Lanka is another example of a government going too far in reducing their sovereign rights to China.

 

The port belongs to China, a new airport belongs to China, the port in Colombo is extraterritorial property belonging to China despite being in Sri Lanka.

 

Many countries in Africa are also suffering from an indebtedness to China.

 

The way the PM of Salomon islands has been trying to keep this pact secret indicates to me that he has something to hide.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by singalion

[singalion]

On 4/26/2022 at 7:28 PM, sgmaven said:

The million dollar question is whether China will really build a military base on the Solomon Islands...

 

The million dollar question is whether the Salomon parliament will ever see the secret treaty (and therewith the world)... haha

 

[sgmaven]

On 4/26/2022 at 7:32 PM, singalion said:

Sri Lanka is another example of a government going too far in reducing their sovereign rights to China.

 

The port belongs to China, a new airport belongs to China, the port in Colombo is extraterritorial property belonging to China despite being in Sri Lanka.

 

Many countries in Africa are also suffering from an indebtedness to China.

In a way, this has been the impact of the West not being open to infrastructural investment/development in Africa, Asia and Latin America. I guess it is their lack of risk appetite, after earlier projects failed. Just think about it, the "hurdle rate" for a project, is not just dependent on the risk of that development being successful in that country, but also dependent on at what "rate of return" is expected from the investor in the country offering the funding. Obviously, the expected return is far lower in a developed nation, than a developing nation. It is far more difficult to find a project offering a rate of return of 10% in Western Europe, for example.

 

One can be sure that China is not "losing out" in these investments, since the expected rate is probably much higher than 10% (which can probably be found domestically within China).

 

On 4/26/2022 at 7:32 PM, singalion said:

Corruption? Debts by the Salomon islands to China?

 

The way the PM of Salomon islands has been trying to keep this pact secret indicates to me that he has something to hide.

Yes, corruption may be involved. Of course, many countries in the West have policies that prohibit such "corrupt" projects, but it may pave the way for countries like China to get in on the "action".

[Steve5380]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:48 AM, Why? said:

Russia beat up other people child, the world start to sanction and became an external affair.   China wanted to discipline its own child, what can the world do?  It is China own internal affairs.  The world itself is not perfect, and best is to stop preaching others what to do.  Otherwise, everyone is as guilty as a dictator. 

 

With your false reasoning,  if parents abuse their children, even to the point of killing them,  the authorities should not intervene because they are "their own children".

 

 

On 4/26/2022 at 6:26 AM, singalion said:

 

US won’t rule out military action if China establishes base in Solomon Islands

Ambassador Daniel Kritenbrink warns security pact presents ‘potential regional security implications’

 

Guardian, Tue 26 Apr 2022

 

One of the most senior US officials in the Pacific has refused to rule out military action against Solomon Islands if it were to allow China to establish a military base there, saying that the security deal between the countries presented “potential regional security implications” for the US and other allies.

Ambassador Daniel Kritenbrink, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, was part of a high-level US delegation to the Pacific country last week.

 

He said the US team, which also included the National Security Council coordinator for Indo-Pacific affairs, Kurt Campbell, had a 90-minute “constructive and candid” meeting with prime minister Manasseh Sogavare in which the US team detailed concerns about its recently signed security deal with China.

 

 

 

I expect America to increase its military capabilities while confronting the rise of China.   The invasion of Ukraine has changed a wishful trend of pacifism and pointed out the reality in the human jungle.  This world belongs to the strongest.

 

What I wish for the US is that it works hard to reestablish its industrial base,  stop importing things from China,  opens the borders to immigration to increase the workforce, allowing millions of Latino refugees in, and hundred of thousand Ukrainian refugees in. I hope that it pushes the development of hypersonic nuclear ballistic missiles with the same urgency like it did with the Manhattan project years ago.    I hope that it invests tons of cyber security to block the industrial espionage by China, which has robbed know-how from the US like no other country has ever done.   At the same time, the cyber security should build defenses against Russia's and China's cyber attacks. 

 

Unfortunately, all these moves may take away from the most important battle to fight:  climate change.   But maybe this fight won't be left behind.

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 8:57 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

What I wish for the US is,  opens the borders to immigration to increase the workforce, allowing millions of Latino refugees in, and hundred of thousand Ukrainian refugees in.

Sounds like a good Ikea.  Open the border as wide as possible, not just for Latino and Ukranian,  but also Tawanese, Hongkongers, Tibetians, Indian, Mexican too.  It is about time to dilute the homogenous arrogant Ang Mo population in America and turn America into a more friendlier and acceptable country people will love..  Now, it seems many countries are still not quite fond of America.  China views America as confrontational,  India views America as preachy, Russia views America as intrusive, Saudi views America as hypocrite,  Brazil views America as arrogant, Europe views America as trouble-maker.  I know you miss the nostalgic 1970s era of America, but wake up, now is year 2022.  

[Ryanlkz]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:41 PM, Why? said:

Taiwan is China legitimate child

Taiwan founded at 1912 but China is 1949, how Taiwan is legitimate child for China?

[Guest frog]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:13 AM, Ryanlkz said:

Taiwan founded at 1912 but China is 1949, how Taiwan is legitimate child for China?

Yes, go read the history book

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:13 AM, Ryanlkz said:

Taiwan founded at 1912 but China is 1949, how Taiwan is legitimate child for China?

China existed for more than 2000 years and beyond, how can it become independence only in 1949?    Tawan, THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA, printed in dark bold on every taiwanese passport speaks volume.  All other arguments that went against it, is completely irrelevant.  I rest my case. 

[Steve5380]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:13 PM, Ryanlkz said:

Taiwan founded at 1912 but China is 1949, how Taiwan is legitimate child for China?

 

This idea of being "legitimate child of"  is pure nonsense.  Historically, Russia and Ukraine have been like brothers.  And now, Russia is killing as many Ukrainians as it can.

 

 

On 4/26/2022 at 9:27 PM, Why? said:

Sounds like a good Ikea.  Open the border as wide as possible, not just for Latino and Ukranian,  but also Tawanese, Hongkongers, Tibetians, Indian, Mexican too.  It is about time to dilute the homogenous arrogant Ang Mo population in America and turn America into a more friendlier and acceptable country people will love..  Now, it seems many countries are still not quite fond of America.  China views America as confrontational,  India views America as preachy, Russia views America as intrusive, Saudi views America as hypocrite,  Brazil views America as arrogant, Europe views America as trouble-maker.  I know you miss the nostalgic 1970s era of America, but wake up, now is year 2022.  

 

What you wrote will put you in complete conflict with the racist white supremacists in America,  the pro-Trump crowd and today the GOP in general.   We want immigration to strengthen our work force,  not to promote diversity,  since there is plenty of diversity in America,  and the country is handling this quite well.  We went from slavery centuries ago to "Black lives matter".   It does not matter how other countries see America, what matters is what America IS,  and it IS a very good country.

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:27 AM, Why? said:

Sounds like a good Ikea.  Open the border as wide as possible, not just for Latino and Ukranian,  but also Tawanese, Hongkongers, Tibetians, Indian, Mexican too.  It is about time to dilute the homogenous arrogant Ang Mo population in America and turn America into a more friendlier and acceptable country people will love..  Now, it seems many countries are still not quite fond of America.  China views America as confrontational,  India views America as preachy, Russia views America as intrusive, Saudi views America as hypocrite,  Brazil views America as arrogant, Europe views America as trouble-maker.  I know you miss the nostalgic 1970s era of America, but wake up, now is year 2022.  

 

Would you propose the same for Singapore?

 

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:41 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

This idea of being "legitimate child of"  is pure nonsense.  Historically, Russia and Ukraine have been like brothers.  And now, Russia is killing as many Ukrainians as it can.

You are not comparing orange with orange.  Russia has agreed to Ukraine separation among other countries post WWII  It was documented and internationally recognised in Europe and so around the world to be so. Documents filed, soverigncy registered in the court of law.   China and Taiwan are inseparable country, admitted by America and across interntionally.  I cannot think of other countries who did not recognise the FACT.  The only country that tried to get Taiwan to become independence is America, not Japan, not Eruope, not Korea not Asean countries.  If there is indeed a WWIII, like Russia, the real culprit cannot be the invader, but the silent hands of America, that rocks the craddle to its grave.  

[singalion]

I assume some posters here need to look up on he History of Taiwan and China... before they post here...

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:41 AM, Steve5380 said:

what matters is what America IS,  and it IS a very good country.

Not a very objective answer, extremely subjective to international readers. 

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:51 AM, singalion said:

I assume some posters here need to look up on he History of Taiwan and China... before they post here...

No need.  Many foreign embassies and trade bodies have withdrew from Taiwan and used China as base to work with Taiwan.  It shouldn't have happened if Taiwan is recognised a sovereign state.  

 

Anyway, I find it extremely unstimulating to keep debating with people who are in denial of the Truth.

[Guest HIStory]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:51 AM, singalion said:

I assume some posters here need to look up on he History of Taiwan and China... before they post here...

It depends what they read

- history books published in PRC or

- history books published in ROC ?

[Ryanlkz]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:40 AM, Why? said:

China existed for more than 2000 years and beyond, how can it become independence only in 1949?    Tawan, THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA, printed in dark bold on every taiwanese passport speaks volume.  All other arguments that went against it, is completely irrelevant.  I rest my case. 

You can't classify all dynasties in Chinese history as China, it only start when People's Republic of China 中华人民共和国 founded which is 1949.

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:58 AM, Guest HIStory said:

It depends what they read

- history books published in PRC or

- history books published in ROC ?

 

Other history books not coming from both parts are invalid?

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:57 AM, Why? said:

No need.  Many foreign embassies and trade bodies have withdrew from Taiwan and used China as base to work with Taiwan.  It shouldn't have happened if Taiwan is recognised a sovereign state.  

 

Anyway, I find it extremely unstimulating to keep debating with people who are in denial of the Truth.

 

What denial of truth?

 

The issue of Taiwan is not that simple as you may think.

 

There are Professors in Constitutional Law and International Law who argue that Taiwan is legally still a part of Japan which status is unresolved.

 

Reasons:

Since the Shimonoseki Treaty of 1895, Taiwan had been de jure part of Japan when the ROC was established in 1912 and thus was not part of the (Mainland) Chinese Republic.

The Cairo Declaration (that provided for Taiwan to be part of a joint Republic of China) was not an international treaty and had no binding effect.

 

Constitutionally Taiwan may still be part of Japan as China and Japan have never signed any peace treaty or anything.

 

There are Taiwanese who follow the same line of reasoning.

 

 

So what "truth" is there?

 

Regarding Taiwan, there are unfortunately, many truths...

The whole status of Taiwan is very blur.

 

A response on the status of Taiwan is not as simple as you think...

 

Sure: You can just listen to one side and ignore the other and then declare this as the "truth"...

But is it really the truth???

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by singalion

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 1:05 PM, singalion said:

Taiwan is legally still a part of Japan which status is unresolved.

 

If Taiwan is still in the hand of Japan now,  it will be much easier to resolve the issue of China Taiwan reunification.  Japan has been ashamed of its own atrocities in this region and has yet to apologise to China for the mass killings.

[InBangkok]

Many views have been aired and I will not respond specifically to any one or group other than to say I visit the island regularly and have many friends there. All would prefer Taiwan to be an independent country. But it is impossible to waive off history as though it is immaterial to the current situation. 

 

The fact is that imperial Q'ing China ruled the island of Taiwan for more than 200 years before the Japanese conquered the island at the end of the 19th century. By the start of World War II, China was ruled by the gangster Chiang Kai Shek. The Japanese had taken over large chunks of China and Chiang's government was an ally of the USA. At the Cairo Conference held in 1943 with Roosevelt, Churchill and Chiang in attendance, it was agreed that all territories conquered by the Japanese since it started expanding into other parts of Asia would return to the powers which had ruled those territories prior to occupation. A clause in that agreement states, "all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and The Pescadores, shall be returned to the Republic of China." This agreement was ratified with the Potsdam Declaration in 1945.

 

An agreement is not a treaty but it was on the basis of the agreement that Taiwan was returned to China. During the War, Mao's communists had entered into an agreement with Chiang to join together to get rid of the Japanese. Thereafter the two sides re-commenced their own struggle for control of China. At that time there was not one politician or administrator in the USA who believed that Mao's ragtag troops could capture Beijing. After they did and Chiang and 2 million of his followers had had to beat a fast retreat to Taiwan, Washington was initially not concerned. The Korean War changed all that. Now there was real possibility of three communist powers in Asia. Everywhere in Washington the question began to be asked, "Who lost China?" This directly led to the McCarthy anti-communist witch hunt within the USA where anyone who showed any communist sympathy was effectively a form of traitor. And in that heated atmosphere, the USA changed its policy and determined to shield Taiwan from mainland China.

 

In hopes of overturning the terms of the Caro agreement, the USA organised a formal Peace Conference with the Japanese in San Francisco in 1951. At this, a Treaty of Peace with Japan was signed. China was not invited to attend as the USA wanted Chiang to represent China! Even the United Kingdom objected to China's non-attendance. The British had refused to help prop up Chiang in Taiwan. As Prime Minister Atlee wrote to his Foreign Secretary, "I would need very strong arguments to provide arms to go to Formosa if there is an effective Chinese government on the mainland even if it is communist." So even the western powers were split on the status of Taiwan. Crucially, that was never at that time formally resolved other than the declarations in Cairo and Potsdam.

 

As the Cold War progressed, the USA continued to argue that Taiwan was separate from mainland China and continued to back Chiang. Chiang himself always believed his sojourn in Taiwan would be limited and he and his troops would return and over take the communists. As we now know, the USA under President Nixon changed its policy and the two China policy became the one China policy. In October 1971 the United Nations passed a resolution that Beijing was the legitimate ruler of China. Support for Taiwan quickly fell away. In terms of international law, there is now no possibility of Taiwan being recognised as a separate country. 

 

The question that has been asked is: will the war in Ukraine affect China's policy towards Taiwan, given President Xi's determination that it become part of the mainland again. In fact, will he resort to force or revert to the more softly softly approach? My view is that Ukraine has probably had a major effect on Xi's ambitions and that China is now less likely to consider force. 

 

I say that only because China now has several major problems. One is covid and its seeming inability to control the pandemic. When entire cities like Shanghai are closed down, the once thought-to-be-controlled pandemic is very clearly out of control. Second is the effect of the pandemic and to a lesser extent the war in Ukraine on the country's economy. Exports are falling, but it is the effect on an increasingly pissed-off population that will worry the authorities more. China's government rules through a bargain with its people. As long as the Chinese as a whole continue to prosper under communist rule, the leadership will face little opposition. Even though the country has a huge censorship department to control the dissemination of dissent, the current waves of localised dissent are clearly increasing and have to be more than slightly worrying. 

 

Of greater concern, though, must surely be the way the world has virtually united against Russia in its invasion of Ukraine. For all its rhetoric about external interference in its internal affairs, China's leaders are not so dumb that they do not realise full well that the country cannot afford a world united against it. For what it is worth, my view is that Taiwan will be off the front burner now for quite some time. That certainly is what i hope. 

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:07 PM, InBangkok said:

A clause in that agreement states, "all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and The Pescadores, shall be returned to the Republic of China." This agreement was ratified with the Potsdam Declaration in 1945.

The above said it all, but America will not stop interfereing thereafter, which is precisely my point. 

[passinthenight]

On 4/27/2022 at 1:58 PM, Guest HIStory said:

It depends what they read

- history books published in PRC or

- history books published in ROC ?

 

So true, I wonder just what the history books in Mainland china says about the massacre at Tiananmen square.

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:38 PM, passinthenight said:

 

So true, I wonder just what the history books in Mainland china says about the massacre at Tiananmen square.

China would not be better off today had the 1989 Tiananmen Square protesters been successful and toppled the communist authorities

 

The above is LKY said one.

 

Fast foward 2022.  History already has judged for itself.  America is pissed of China's success. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Why?

[sgmaven]

Some people have probably been indoctrinated with the doctrine of the PRC, and their rights over places like Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang. The Tibetans and Uighurs are not even ethically Chinese, nor do they use Chinese as their mother tongue. Yet, China insists that those areas are theirs...

 

Back to Taiwan, we have to look at the history of the island, and how it was basically neglected for much of history until it became a Japanese colony, and then when the KMT troops retreated to the island. Don't try to claim that the Emperor in Beijing even thought much of Taiwan when it was under Imperial China...

 

So, it is not surprising that the Taiwanese (not those who came from the Mainland), have a much stronger idea of autonomy.

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:07 PM, InBangkok said:

A clause in that agreement states, "all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa and The Pescadores, shall be returned to the Republic of China." This agreement was ratified with the Potsdam Declaration in 1945.

 

that might be correct.

 

But the 1952 Peace treaty between Japan and "China" was signed between the Republic of China and Japan. (and not with the People's Republic of China).

 

Taiwan is the continuation of the Republic of China as the governors of the Republic of China "fled" to Taiwan.

 

Japan never signed anything with the People's Republic of China.

 

This is the focal point how the whole dispute started and why Taiwan claims to be right.

 

Taiwan was transferred to the Republic of China, that continued to exist (after the internal war in China) with Taiwan.

 

 

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:38 PM, passinthenight said:

 

So true, I wonder just what the history books in Mainland china says about the massacre at Tiananmen square.

 

From the censoring of the events, it will probably say nothing... 😂

 

 

Oh it says it was a "turbulence"

 

Responding to a question at the Shangri La Dialogue in Singapore after a hardline speech about China and international security cooperation, he,  Chinese Defense Minister Wei Fenghe called the protests political “turbulence.”

It is rare for Chinese government officials to acknowledge the events of June 4, 1989; references to it are heavily censored in China.

“Everybody is concerned about Tiananmen after 30 years,” Wei said on Sunday. “Throughout the 30 years, China under the Communist Party has undergone many changes - do you think the government was wrong with the handling of June Fourth? There was a conclusion to that incident. The government was decisive in stopping the turbulence.”

[Steve5380]

On 4/27/2022 at 1:47 AM, sgmaven said:

Some people have probably been indoctrinated with the doctrine of the PRC, and their rights over places like Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang. The Tibetans and Uighurs are not even ethically Chinese, nor do they use Chinese as their mother tongue. Yet, China insists that those areas are theirs...

 

Back to Taiwan, we have to look at the history of the island, and how it was basically neglected for much of history until it became a Japanese colony, and then when the KMT troops retreated to the island. Don't try to claim that the Emperor in Beijing even thought much of Taiwan when it was under Imperial China...

 

So, it is not surprising that the Taiwanese (not those who came from the Mainland), have a much stronger idea of autonomy.

 

Some good points.   The idea of AUTONOMY deserves its place in the debate, and in the affairs of the world.  

 

Where is the law of nature that impedes that a region that has physical, political, social separation from another bigger one, cannot aspire for its autonomy?  Why should bigger countries swallow smaller ones by forceful conquests?   The large countries of today were formed many centuries ago, and before this, small regions and even cities were independent states.  Of course the consolidation into larger countries has its advantages,  but also its problems.  In our society, don't families split into new separate ones?  Should I claim that my son belongs to me, because I contributed to his life, and therefore he cannot become independent, autonomous?

 

Instead of a dangerous confrontation,  China could choose to develop a friendship with Taiwan, and coexist like brothers, agreeing to disagree sometimes but sharing what they have in common.  Taiwan could receive tourists and cheap products from the mainland, and share its semiconductors with the mainland.

 

And couldn't Russia have chosen to develop a friendship with autonomous Ukraine?  And then if Ukraine turned more towards the West, could Russia have observed what the Ukrainians gained with this and followed their example?  What is wrong with the WEST?   Aren't the cardinal points something relative in a spherical planet?   After all, the whole Europe and Africa  is America's  EAST, isn't it?  ha ha.

[InBangkok]

On 4/27/2022 at 4:28 PM, singalion said:

 

that might be correct.

 

But the 1952 Peace treaty between Japan and "China" was signed between the Republic of China and Japan. (and not with the People's Republic of China).

 

Taiwan is the continuation of the Republic of China as the governors of the Republic of China "fled" to Taiwan.

 

Japan never signed anything with the People's Republic of China.

 

This is the focal point how the whole dispute started and why Taiwan claims to be right.

 

Taiwan was transferred to the Republic of China, that continued to exist (after the internal war in China) with Taiwan.

 

 

The 1952 Treaty was signed by Chiang simply because the powers who ruled China were not invited. As I stated, not every western power agreed with the USA's attempts at reversing the Cairo and Potsdam agreements. Britain was one such power. Add to that the fact that the United Nations, the United States and the majority of the world's nations have for more than 50 years recognised only one China - and that is the government in Beijing. They do not accept Taiwan as a separate state. 

 

Everyone is perfectly well aware that the ROC was merely a name. The nation that ruled Taiwan for over 200 years prior to the Japanese occupation was Imperial China. Chiang Kai Shek may have succeeded Sun Yet Sen in China and the name of the country may have changed. But the ROC forces under the gangster Chiang were then soundly beaten by the forces under Mao. That resulted in the legitimacy of the government of the country switching to the People's Republic. You cannot reverse history! 

 

 

[singalion]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:36 PM, InBangkok said:

The 1952 Treaty was signed by Chiang simply because the powers who ruled China were not invited. As I stated, not every western power agreed with the USA's attempts at reversing the Cairo and Potsdam agreements. Britain was one such power. Add to that the fact that the United Nations, the United States and the majority of the world's nations have for more than 50 years recognised only one China - and that is the government in Beijing. They do not accept Taiwan as a separate state. 

 

Everyone is perfectly well aware that the ROC was merely a name. The nation that ruled Taiwan for over 200 years prior to the Japanese occupation was Imperial China. Chiang Kai Shek may have succeeded Sun Yet Sen in China and the name of the country may have changed. But the ROC forces under the gangster Chiang were then soundly beaten by the forces under Mao. That resulted in the legitimacy of the government of the country switching to the People's Republic. You cannot reverse history! 

 

 

 

Need to make some amendments.

 

Republic of China was not just a name, but the government authority in China from 1912.

 

The Republic of China (1912-1949)

 

The Republic of China was formed when the Qing Dynasty fell in 1912.  The republic had ended a very long reign of imperial rule. Sun Yat-sen was the leader of the opposition that led several civil unrests to unseat the Qing Dynasty from ruling China. The imperial rule was weak and unable to unite the country because of weak policies, corruption, and several foreign invasions. Several provinces declared independence from the Qing Dynasty and on January 1, 1912 elected Sun Yatsen as the first Provisional President of China. However he was unable to get enough support   from other provinces and the military under the strong leadership of military general Yuan Shikai . To prevent civil war, Sun Yatsen turned over the presidency to Yuna Shikai.

 

The Republic of China was a founding member of the League of nations and also the official representation of China in the UN until 1971, it held the security council seat for China!

 

While it was an authoritarian and corrupt government in China, it was still the official representation of China on the Mainland and in official organisations.

 

 

 

 

[Why?]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:35 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Where is the law of nature that impedes that a region that has physical, political, social separation from another bigger one, cannot aspire for its autonomy?

 

 

On 4/27/2022 at 8:57 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

This world belongs to the strongest.

You answered the question you asked.

[Steve5380]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:05 AM, Why? said:

 

You answered the question you asked.

 

You didn't find any valid answer with your thinking full of false suppositions.

 

America has been the strongest for nearly a century.   Yet, it let Japan, Germany, Italy keep their autonomy even after they were defeated.  And it hasn't invaded and annexed any foreign land.  It has however bought some foreign lands.  Maybe China could do the same and BUY Taiwan,  if the Taiwanese agree to sell,  ha ha.

[Why?]

On 4/28/2022 at 2:31 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

 Maybe China could do the same and BUY Taiwan,  if the Taiwanese agree to sell,  ha ha.

You only buy something which is not yours.  If it is already yours, you need not buy.  They teach that in Kindergarten School.

[Steve5380]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:20 PM, Why? said:

You only buy something which is not yours.  If it is already yours, you need not buy.  They teach that in Kindergarten School.

 

It may not be taught in Kindergarten,  but even Kindergarten kids know that you don't own things automatically, but if they are not your own body you have to make them or buy them.  There are no records that mainland China BOUGHT Taiwan.  Neither did it MAKE Taiwan.  So they don't have any legal ownership if it.  

[Why?]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:16 AM, Steve5380 said:

There are no records that mainland China BOUGHT Taiwan.  Neither did it MAKE Taiwan.  So they don't have any legal ownership if it.  

Your denial is very well established, very American.  Understandable. No further debate needed.🥱

[sgmaven]

According to someone's twisted logic, the nation of Singapore shouldn't exist, and can, at anytime be claimed by either Malaysia or Indonesia. Further to that logic, the UN is not even supposed to care about that claim, since Singapore as a sovereign state never really existed before 1959. 🙄

[Steve5380]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:25 PM, Why? said:

Your denial is very well established, very American.  Understandable. No further debate needed.🥱

 

Why?

[singalion]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:10 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Why?

 

Why? Why do you intend to engage with an obvious troll?

[Guest Guest]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:21 AM, singalion said:

 

Why? Why do you intend to engage with an obvious troll?

 

You started another one of your shit stirring thread, and yet people can get labelled as "trolls" when they takes a side opposite to you? Why didn't you declare the side which people must take when you started this thread? Go fuck off and live in your alternate reality if you want the entire world to sing along with your crazy views.

[Why?]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:10 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Why?

Because singalion is not happy already.  Here is proof.

On 4/28/2022 at 11:21 AM, singalion said:

 

Why? Why do you intend to engage with an obvious troll?