Taiwan, one of the unresolved issues in East Asia...

[bluerunner]

These people are playing w fire. Just because Taiwan is not anywhere near US, US can stir shit and desperate Taiwanese politician is taking the bait. Tsk tsk 

Im sure US will think twice if Taiwan is located just beside US. 

[Steve5380]

15 hours ago, bluerunner said:

These people are playing w fire. Just because Taiwan is not anywhere near US, US can stir shit and desperate Taiwanese politician is taking the bait. Tsk tsk 

Im sure US will think twice if Taiwan is located just beside US. 

 

Im sure China will think twice if Taiwan is located just beside US.

 

Have you read about October 1962,  when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened?   Khrushchev never recovered from the embarrassment of having yielded to the US... 

[singalion]

 

16 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

2) China could have accepted the independence of Taiwan,  maybe in exchange for buying a stake of its government in TSMC.  Then the two countries could have a prolific commercial, touristic exchange,  and China would have all the advanced semiconductors it wants.  And then,  China could have saved all the immense wealth it is pouring into building up its military, creating artificial islands in the S. China Sea, etc.   What much had China to gain by swallowing that little island Taiwan?  And it had sufficient weapons already to defend itself from any attack.  And it could have maintained a cordial relationship with all the surrounding countries, with plenty of commerce and tourism.

 

Similar gains could be imagined if stupidity and personal gains would not exist in our personal lives,

 

Why must it be independence of Taiwan?

 

China could also accept a two system future, but Taiwanese would be Chinese Nationals.

The history had this with Hong Kong and earlier Macao.

(but it would need better guarantees than the British gave for Hong Kong).

 

While not exactly the same situation but it is something like the hope that Korea will be united one day.

 

China does not spend on military just because of Taiwan but it intends to get back into the 7th  to 16th century as world power.

Don't think China just spends on the military because of Taiwan.

 

Nationalism has been driving in China since the Mao revolution. Chinese are not like Mexicans who are happy to be the 15th largest economy in the world but China want to be the number one in everything you can imagine.

Xi Jinping has been driving this shift to more nationalism, just look also at his little education revolution he pushed through at schools and universities...

 

Take some time to spend some chats with Mainland Chinese, you will see what pride and expectation they carry. It is not like talking to American youth who don't have that drive but where personal wealth and fame etc are drivers (and their escape into drugs, when they realise they don't achieve those dreams...)

 

Unfortunately, where I agree is that stupidity drives a lot of disruption into countries... and China is not near to perfect at all when it comes to personal freedoms and that little childish reaction when things are spoken bluntly.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

12 hours ago, singalion said:

 

Don't think China just spends on the military because of Taiwan.

 

 

Not because of Taiwan.  China could eat Taiwan for breakfast.  But because America stands behind Taiwan.

[PlayersGroup]

 

12 hours ago, singalion said:

Take some time to spend some chats with Mainland Chinese, you will see what pride and expectation they carry. It is not like talking to American youth who don't have that drive but where personal wealth and fame etc are drivers (and their escape into drugs, when they realise they don't achieve those dreams...)

 

A lot of generalizations there. It's one thing to understand China's position and beliefs about themselves their views about territorial integrity and sovereignty and the narrative by the CCP. It is another to believe and agree with them unquestionably. I don't think American youth are generally escapists without drive.

Edited June 10, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Steve5380]

32 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

 

A lot of generalizations there. It's one thing to understand China's position and beliefs about themselves their views about territorial integrity and sovereignty and the narrative by the CCP. It is another to believe and agree with them unquestionably. I don't think American youth are generally escapists without drive.

 

I think you have the right idea.  

 

If "China wants to be the number one in everything you can imagine"  and "we will see what pride and expectation they carry"...   ...   all we can ask ourselves is WHY???  What has China that should make it the number one in this vast world?  And the Chinese have the right to carry pride and expectation,  but so have all the 8 billion humans.

 

American youth are spoiled by circumstances,  but but their genes are as good as those of their ancestors.  It so happens that the nation has been blessed with ancestors of good quality, forged by their tough experiences, like the refugees from the senseless wars in Europa and elsewhere.  

[Guest Lesson number 1]

7 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

What has China that should make it the number one in this vast world? 

China has never shown a desire to lead the globe. President Xi informed Joe Biden at the G20 summit in 

Bali that the world can support two big powers, but the majority of Americans only wanted to see America as the lone superpower. As a result, America persisted in doing the most absurd and dangerous thing in 

Asia.  

Superpowers also organically arise from a country's population and its residents' affluence per capita. Is it Possible to slow down a nation's population growth and the wage rise?

If "NO" is your response to the last two questions, then it is evident that America is incorrect to fault other hard working nations for their rapid economic development and eventually become a super-power succeeding many complacent and lazy Americans. 

 

In terms of Taiwanese politics, I no longer have confidence in the president. Even though LGBT rights are officially recognized, the nation still has many internal and international issues, and its current leaders continue to convey false information to its own people through media that is under tight control and don't get me talk about corruption issues too. 

[auscent]

Mutual respect for peaceful co existence is a timeless concept. All the more important in a crowded world. Territorities etc should be left alone.

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Guest Lesson number 1 said:

China has never shown a desire to lead the globe. President Xi informed Joe Biden at the G20 summit in 

Bali that the world can support two big powers, but the majority of Americans only wanted to see America as the lone superpower. As a result, America persisted in doing the most absurd and dangerous thing in 

Asia.  

Superpowers also organically arise from a country's population and its residents' affluence per capita. Is it Possible to slow down a nation's population growth and the wage rise?

If "NO" is your response to the last two questions, then it is evident that America is incorrect to fault other hard working nations for their rapid economic development and eventually become a super-power succeeding many complacent and lazy Americans. 

 

In terms of Taiwanese politics, I no longer have confidence in the president. Even though LGBT rights are officially recognized, the nation still has many internal and international issues, and its current leaders continue to convey false information to its own people through media that is under tight control and don't get me talk about corruption issues too. 

 

I also think like you that more than one superpower could coexist in a peaceful world.   America should not fault China for its rapid economic development to become an economic superpower.  There is simply a concern for its rapid military development in preparation for an invasion of Taiwan. The concern is this aggressiveness. If this becomes successful, what will be next?  

.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Steve5380

[Guest Reason Please]

12 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

There is simply a concern for its rapid military development in preparation for an invasion of Thailand. The concern is this aggressiveness. If this becomes successful, what will be next?  

If you house become bigger and you became the wealthiest man in town, don't you want to invest in Security Guard to guard your property or simply leave it vulnerable for raid by your neighbours and other unscrupulous wealthier family from the western side?  China has not planted its military base in Thailand or its other neighbouring countries in order to threaten every new leadership in those countries.  I know America did it quite aggressively and shamelessly in the name of "protecting" those nations.   

[Steve5380]

4 minutes ago, Guest Reason Please said:

If you house become bigger and you became the wealthiest man in town, don't you want to invest in Security Guard to guard your property or simply leave it vulnerable for raid by your neighbours and other unscrupulous wealthier family from the western side?  China has not planted its military base in Thailand or its other neighbouring countries in order to threaten every new leadership in those countries.  I know America did it quite aggressively and shamelessly in the name of "protecting" those nations.   

 

I'm sorry that in my previous post I wrote "Thailand" instead of "Taiwan" by mistake, which I have corrected.

 

So China is simply building up its military as a Security Guard to avoid being vulnerable to raid by its neighbors?  I am not aware of any country that threatens to invade China.

[Guest Reason Please]

4 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I'm sorry that in my previous post I wrote "Thailand" instead of "Taiwan" by mistake, which I have corrected.

 

So China is simply building up its military as a Security Guard to avoid being vulnerable to raid by its neighbors?  I am not aware of any country that threatens to invade China.

America is inciting many countries to hate China.  The latter felt threatened and uneasy of America's anti social and wayward behaviours.  America has history of threatening and eventually invading other nations, almost every year.  

[PlayersGroup]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

 

So China is simply building up its military as a Security Guard to avoid being vulnerable to raid by its neighbors?  I am not aware of any country that threatens to invade China.

 

To understand China's current situation, one needs to go farther back in history. For a country that sees its own civilisational history in terms of thousands of years, China's memory of the 8 Nation Alliance is considered a rather fresh wound. It is not forgotten but was reinforced in the minds of the younger generations. Sino-Anglo Opium War (which is remembered essentially as Britain going to war with China to benefit drug smugglers and force its markets to open), after which there was the 8-nation Alliance including the US that invaded Qing Dynasty and occupied several areas in China resulting in the treaties that cut out Hong Kong/Macao to the British and Portuguese. The activities of US at the time was also not viewed favorably to say the least.

 

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/90689.htm#:~:text=U.S. marines played a key,force that crushed the Boxers.&text=After defeating the Boxers%2C the,paid to the foreign nations.

 

The narrative is that China has never practiced aggression in lands that were not theirs, unlike the colonial powers which enriched themselves and their empires through aggression under the pretense of this or that slogan. In their view, not without justification, they have consistently maintained that they see Taiwan, Hongkong, Macao as China's territories. Their claims of owning South China Sea though, is more contested by other countries. 

[Guest KNS]

2 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

China's memory of the 8 Nation Alliance is considered a rather fresh wound. It is not forgotten but was reinforced in the minds of the younger generations. Sino-Anglo Opium War (which is remembered essentially as Britain going to war with China to benefit drug smugglers and force its markets to open), after which there was the 8-nation Alliance including the US that invaded Qing Dynasty and occupied several areas in China resulting in the treaties that cut out Hong Kong/Macao to the British and Portuguese. The activities of US at the time was also not viewed favorably to say the least.

 

The massacre of Nanjing by Japanese is pretty fresh wound to China too.   You can't explain all these painful war history to supermacist chao Ang Mo.

[PlayersGroup]

1 hour ago, Guest KNS said:

The massacre of Nanjing by Japanese is pretty fresh wound to China too.   You can't explain all these painful war history to supermacist chao Ang Mo.

 

US essentially ended WW2 and Japanese war ambitions after using the 2 nuclear bombs on Japan.

 

Steve has been fair-minded. May we all be mindful of words we use on others because it reflects on ourselves. Whoever the guest is, there is no need for such language just to make ppl post retorts.

 

Painful history yes but as people who discuss politics dispassionately we don't have to subscribe to the narrative. Has China ever sent troops overseas to fight? Well actually yes. 

 

China also doesnt need to constantly relive history, like trauma does to a victim. At some point it's healthier to look to the future, unchecked nationalistic fervor isn't helpful too in international relations.

 

There's a lot more reason for humans to safeguard the international peace than to launch a war like Russia did.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Guest Cunt]

6 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

There's a lot more reason for humans to safeguard the international peace than to launch a war like Russia did.

 

Russia was provoked by NATO. If u don't get rid of western cancerous cells it will spread around the world. Russia was putting a stop to it by invasive "surgery".  Unfortunately the tumor now spread to Taiwan by old cunt Pelosi, resulted in anxiety in a peaceful Asia.

[PlayersGroup]

8 hours ago, Guest Cunt said:

Russia was provoked by NATO. If u don't get rid of western cancerous cells it will spread around the world. Russia was putting a stop to it by invasive "surgery".  Unfortunately the tumor now spread to Taiwan by old cunt Pelosi, resulted in anxiety in a peaceful Asia.

 

No need for vulgar language please. Russia's position is well-publicised (mainly by Russia and China)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine 

 

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999

 

And then there was Nato's response:

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm

 

As for China and Taiwan, honestly, quite a different situation, although there are some parallels, this is an unresolved civil war. Question is, most do not want war as a method of resolution anymore.

 

Are we working based on the political aspirations of the people on these part territories, or are we relying on a static notion of a country's boundary and defense? I guess at some level, there are different expectations of how democracy is exercised. There is a lot more historical context, details and political philosophy involved that can be brought up.

Edited June 12, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[singalion]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:25 PM, Guest Reason Please said:

If you house become bigger and you became the wealthiest man in town, don't you want to invest in Security Guard to guard your property or simply leave it vulnerable for raid by your neighbours and other unscrupulous wealthier family from the western side?  China has not planted its military base in Thailand or its other neighbouring countries in order to threaten every new leadership in those countries.  I know America did it quite aggressively and shamelessly in the name of "protecting" those nations.   

 

Some questions:

 

a)

Is there any country in the world or any neighbouring country to China that seriously thinks of invading China or starting any territory disputes with China?

The only country bordering to China who could do that would be India and Russia.

But surely not any South East Asia country.

 

The military strength of China is more a result of WWII and Japan's previous military presence and invasions into China.

I don't think it had been directed at the US until this decade.

 

b)

Did it ever come to your thought that certain South East Asian countries are asking a certain superpower to build a military base in these countries. Do these countries do this because there is a country threatening their existence? 

 

In what sense did the US every interfere into Thailand's policies, politics or aggressively committing interference etc there?

It is the main interest of Thailand (and other South East Asia countries) to have the military support from the US.

 

 

It is more the other way around that certain SEA countries are seeking the military support from the US.

 

c) The interference by the US in the post war was due to communist revolutions in certain countries (Vietnam).

Yes, there was interference in the Philippines but the background was the dictator Marcos. Indonesia was always silently siding with the US but playing to be an independent (created the movement of non aligned countries in the 1960s.

 

 

I m not sure your above post holds with historic backgrounds and seems to me more a result of Chinese media consumption.

 

 

[singalion]

On 6/11/2023 at 2:05 PM, PlayersGroup said:

The narrative is that China has never practiced aggression in lands that were not theirs, unlike the colonial powers which enriched themselves and their empires through aggression under the pretense of this or that slogan. In their view, not without justification, they have consistently maintained that they see Taiwan, Hongkong, Macao as China's territories. Their claims of owning South China Sea though, is more contested by other countries. 

 

But it doesn't hold with history.

 

Tibet was an independent nation...

Mongolia had border issues with China also and Chinese army invading certain parts to extend it's country.

 

The best example of China's aggression was in fact with India. When India had internal struggles China just occupied certain Indian territories, promised to return them but never followed up on it. In that sense you can't say that China did not practice aggressions.

 

The last major aggressive act was China's bullying of the small country Bhutan, disputing their borders by trying to force Bhutan taking side for China.

 

 

 

Why China wants a Himalayan dispute with Bhutan

China lays unprecedented claim to Bhutanese nature sanctuary in a manufactured dispute that aims ultimately to pressure India

 

July 13, 2020

...

https://asiatimes.com/2020/07/why-china-wants-a-himalayan-dispute-with-bhutan/

 

China steps up construction along disputed Bhutan border

By Devjyot Ghoshal, Anand Katakam and Aditi Bhandari

Published Jan. 12, 2022

China has accelerated settlement-building along its disputed border with Bhutan, with more than 200 structures, including two-storey buildings, under construction in six locations, according to satellite image analysis conducted for Reuters.

Bhutan, a country of less than 800,000 people, has been negotiating with Beijing for almost four decades to settle their 477-km border. An issue for Bhutan is not just territorial integrity...

 

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/CHINA-BHUTAN/BORDER/zjvqknaryvx/

 

 

 

=> There is aggression by China and also a clear contradiction that "China (according to their own words) is a peaceful country"... China seems not to be that angel that some posts here intend to say. (Note: not referring to the above member but other posts)

 

 

 

[singalion]

Here is another part where China is causing an aggressive stance against a neighbouring country:

 

 

Arunachal Pradesh: India rejects China's attempt to rename disputed places

 

4 April 2023

 

India has reacted sharply to China's attempts to rename places in the north-eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh and said it "outright rejects" the move.

The state has been and will always be an "integral and inalienable part of India," foreign ministry spokesperson Arindam Bagchi said on Tuesday.

His comments came after reports said that China had renamed 11 places along a disputed Himalayan border region in the state.

 

Beijing has not yet commented.

 

China and India share a disputed 3,440km (2,100 mile) long de facto border - called the Line of Actual Control, or LAC - which is poorly demarcated. The presence of rivers, lakes and snowcaps means the line can shift.

 

China continues to stake claim on the whole of Arunachal Pradesh, calling it "South Tibet".

The latest tensions began after the Chinese Ministry of Civil Affairs on 1 April announced that it had "standardised some geographical names in southern Tibet".

This included mountain peaks, residential areas, rivers and a town close to the state's capital Itanagar.

India said Beijing could not alter the status of places in the north-eastern state.

"This is not first time China has made such an attempt. We reject this outright," Mr Bagchi said in a statement.

"Arunachal Pradesh is an integral, inalienable part of India. And attempts to assign invented names will not alter this reality," he added.

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-65134534

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

7 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

Are we working based on the political aspirations of the people on these part territories, or are we relying on a static notion of a country's boundary and defense? I guess at some level, there are different expectations of how democracy is exercised. There is a lot more historical context, details and political philosophy involved that can be brought up.

 

I think since Macao and Hong Kong have been somehow "integrated" into China, China feels much more on the upper hand when it comes to Taiwan. But China forgets the Taiwanese and also the historic reasons why Taiwan ended up as it is.

 

You can compare this with the unification in Germany, I mean the mental part. The Eastern Germans felt "conquered" by the West Germans and saw them as the "winners" in the East West war but their perception was more or less wrong because it was a democratic decision by the Eastern German parliament in 1989 to unite with West-Germany.

 

China in my view just wants to play that winner game and later tell a story to the world that the Communism has won (on Taiwan/China) and not the Kuomintang.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by singalion

[PlayersGroup]

3 hours ago, singalion said:

 

You can compare this with the unification in Germany, I mean the mental part. The Eastern Germans felt "conquered" by the West Germans and saw them as the "winners" in the East West war but their perception was more or less wrong because it was a democratic decision by the Eastern German parliament in 1989 to unite with West-Germany.

 

 

You should watch this, very funny how history is made. 

 

[Steve5380]

56 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

You should watch this, very funny how history is made. 

 

 

What a glorious event the reunification of Germany!  It could have happened much earlier,  the separation itself was an unnecessary evil.  

 

It crosses one's mind what would happen if the southern US - Mexico border would open in the same way!  How much joy would this bring.   But this is different,  Mexico and the US were never the same country.  But nonetheless, the benefit would be enormous for the refugees...  and the US, which is becoming short in its labor force, especially in Florida.

 

Yet, Donald Trump won the presidency in 2016 in part on the promise to raise THE WALL!  But then, Trump is in the same league as Hitler and Stalin, Khrushchev. 

[Steve5380]

Reading here about the comparisons between the US and China,  gives some room for reflections:

 

America has two neighbors:  Canada on the north and Mexico on the south.  Since the middle of the 19th century, around 1850,  there have been ZERO conflicts between America and its neighbors.   Compare this with China. 

 

Since this time and ending with the war where Texas was conquered and annexed from Mexico,  and with the exception of the conflict in Hawaii in 1893, America has not expanded its territory into any land where it has prevailed.   Instead, it has bought some land from other countries.    After WWII  America had the opportunity to add the defeated countries to its territory like colonies, but this did not happen.   Instead, the defeated countries were given support to recover themselves.  So, America did not profiteer from his wins on the battlefield, and this would have been against its principles. 

 

The exception in principles would have happened if Trump had been president during the Iraq war,  because his "principle" is that the US should have taken possession of all the oil of Iraq.   Let's hope that this individual will have time to reflect on his "principles" in jail soon.

 

 

[singalion]

While USA did not fight wars with Canada or Mexico, let's not overlook or forget that the US carried out plenty of interference in other parts of the world as in the American hemisphere toppling democratically elected governments. There had been plenty of military or intelligence operations by the US in Central and South American. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by singalion

[Guest Nonsense American]

11 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Since the middle of the 19th century, around 1850,  there have been ZERO conflicts between America and its neighbors.   Compare this with China. 

You have no lack of jokes in this forum.   Zero conflicts could mean America has bullied its neighbours into a submissive countries and made them lost their voices.   With the rise of China, America's neighbours no longer fear the greatest bully in the world.  90% of South America,  the Middle East have grown some balls.  All thanks to China as their trustworthy back-up friends. 

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Guest Nonsense American said:

You have no lack of jokes in this forum.   Zero conflicts could mean America has bullied its neighbours into a submissive countries and made them lost their voices.   With the rise of China, America's neighbours no longer fear the greatest bully in the world.  90% of South America,  the Middle East have grown some balls.  All thanks to China as their trustworthy back-up friends. 

 

You got the wrong information.  

 

America has very friendly relations with its two neighbors Canada and Mexico.  There is no distrust but plenty of commercial interchange.  And mutual help.   For example,  the US has sent firefighting forces to Canada to help fight the forest fires that ravage the northeast provinces of Canada.   The US has also helped Mexico on multiple occasions, and Mexico is helping the US with the refugee problem at their border.

[Guest Nonsense American]

8 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

You got the wrong information.  

 

America has very friendly relations with its two neighbors Canada and Mexico.  There is no distrust but plenty of commercial interchange.  And mutual help.   For example,  the US has sent firefighting forces to Canada to help fight the forest fires that ravage the northeast provinces of Canada.   The US has also helped Mexico on multiple occasions, and Mexico is helping the US with the refugee problem at their border.

What about Cuba, Venezuela.  Mexico president has recently challenged America for daring to wage war on its country.  As for Canada, since when has Trudeau grows a pair of balls?   His dad & grand-dad is turning in their grave for having such a useless son to lead canada into shame.

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, Guest Nonsense American said:

What about Cuba, Venezuela.  Mexico president has recently challenged America for daring to wage war on its country.  As for Canada, since when has Trudeau grows a pair of balls?   His dad & grand-dad is turning in their grave for having such a useless son to lead canada into shame.

 

Yes, what about Cuba and Venezuela?  Both have very bad totalitarian governments, and America for years has given refuge to Cubans escaping the evil Castro,  and now so many refugees come to the US from Venezuela.  And Mexico's president is an idiot.

 

Going back to Taiwan, the reason America is standing behind this country is because its people have chosen to live in a progressive democracy and are threatened to be invaded by the totalitarian PRC.

[Guest Guest]

9 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, what about Cuba and Venezuela?  Both have very bad totalitarian governments, and America for years has given refuge to Cubans escaping the evil Castro,  and now so many refugees come to the US from Venezuela.  And Mexico's president is an idiot.

 

Going back to Taiwan, the reason America is standing behind this country is because its people have chosen to live in a progressive democracy and are threatened to be invaded by the totalitarian PRC.

America is the evil spirit always trying to tell other countries what to do.  If other presidents are idiots, Biden is the ultimate moron.

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

15 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, what about Cuba and Venezuela?  Both have very bad totalitarian governments, and America for years has given refuge to Cubans escaping the evil Castro,  and now so many refugees come to the US from Venezuela.  And Mexico's president is an idiot.

 

Going back to Taiwan, the reason America is standing behind this country is because its people have chosen to live in a progressive democracy and are threatened to be invaded by the totalitarian PRC.

 

Hmm, Steve here's another view:

https://theconversation.com/saudi-arabia-is-a-repressive-regime-and-so-are-a-lot-of-us-allies-105106

[PlayersGroup]

12 hours ago, Guest Nonsense American said:

With the rise of China, America's neighbours no longer fear the greatest bully in the world...All thanks to China as their trustworthy back-up friends. 

 

Leaving America aside, China's rise can actually be a good thing, but China has to help itself build a better image than it has now, which isn't great, although the Chinese may not realise so.

 

1. Rein in and educate its netizens not to misinterprete and misattribute anything everything as an affront/insult to China. The nationalistic fervor is in overdrive.

 

2. Rein in the proliferation of fake social media accounts (internet brigades) in other countries claiming to be locals in support of China to sway public opinion. The irony is that people recognise these manipulations and dislike it, resulting in opinion turning against China instead.

 

3. Investigate the proliferation of scammers swindlers in the country that is affecting the Chinese people themselves and people overseas.

 

4. Be more cordial and cooperate more with neighbours, even in disputed issues. 

 

5. I think it is actually to China's advantage to see the natural development of democracy of the island with a less threatening posture. Winning militarily doesn't win people's hearts and minds.

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Hmm, Steve here's another view:

https://theconversation.com/saudi-arabia-is-a-repressive-regime-and-so-are-a-lot-of-us-allies-105106

 

Yes, it is a fact.  No nation is perfect, and America has its weaknesses,  to prioritize oil resources and sales of arms over human rights in some countries it deals with.  

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Leaving America aside, China's rise can actually be a good thing, but China has to help itself build a better image than it has now, which isn't great, although the Chinese may not realise so.

 

1. Rein in and educate its netizens not to misinterprete and misattribute anything everything as an affront/insult to China. The nationalistic fervor is in overdrive.

 

2. Rein in the proliferation of fake social media accounts (internet brigades) in other countries claiming to be locals in support of China to sway public opinion. The irony is that people recognise these manipulations and dislike it, resulting in opinion turning against China instead.

 

3. Investigate the proliferation of scammers swindlers in the country that is affecting the Chinese people themselves and people overseas.

 

4. Be more cordial and cooperate more with neighbours, even in disputed issues. 

 

5. I think it is actually to China's advantage to see the natural development of democracy of the island with a less threatening posture. Winning militarily doesn't win people's hearts and minds.

 

And not everything is so rosy for China.  It has financial problems due to so much money it has lent to poor countries. India is surging, not only in population,  which is younger than China's,  and it's workforce is replacing much of China's workforce.  Maybe China's golden years of top exports won't last much longer.  

[Guest True]

9 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

And not everything is so rosy for China.  It has financial problems due to so much money it has lent to poor countries.

Of course. China is America's largest Creditor too.   No wonder Biden and Yellen are in desperate need to meet President Xi in recent months to discuss Debt's issue. Without China's help, America has long been a bankrupt nation.   How I wish China isn't so kind and generous.

[Guest huh?]

11 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Leaving America aside, China's rise can actually be a good thing, but China has to help itself build a better image than it has now, which isn't great, although the Chinese may not realise so.

 

 

You may not realised over consumption of western fake news is as good as saying gay people is a disease and need to better our image?   I don't see China having any fault, especially it has tried to unite the muslim world by successfully getting Iran and SA to become friend again and now it has been getting Palestinian and Israel to work together peacefully.  of course, AMERICA DIDN'T WANT TO SEE THAT COMING INTO FRUITION.  You still can't tell which side is more evil now?

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, Guest True said:

Of course. China is America's largest Creditor too.   No wonder Biden and Yellen are in desperate need to meet President Xi in recent months to discuss Debt's issue. Without China's help, America has long been a bankrupt nation.   How I wish China isn't so kind and generous.

 

The US largest creditor is not China but Japan.   And the about 1 trillion dollars of US debt that China holds is no threat to America.   This is because US debt is quite desirable in the global market.  So if China wants to get rid of it, other countries may be willing to take it over.   But it is in China's own interest to own many US dollars.

[PlayersGroup]

1 hour ago, Guest huh? said:

You may not realised over consumption of western fake news is as good as saying gay people is a disease and need to better our image?   I don't see China having any fault, especially it has tried to unite the muslim world by successfully getting Iran and SA to become friend again and now it has been getting Palestinian and Israel to work together peacefully.  of course, AMERICA DIDN'T WANT TO SEE THAT COMING INTO FRUITION.  You still can't tell which side is more evil now?

 

I'm not the "one side against another side" kind of guy, others may have taken the bait. If your appeal is for not believing media consumed, it applies to what you consume too. My view is as always, there are nuances and truth on both sides, just don't believe either wholesale.

 

We all know western news is biased against China. When China locked down cities to control covid, the media talked about how China is repressing freedoms, when China opened up after 3 years, they complained China is irresponsible.

 

Western media is biased, but all media is biased. Some of my younger China friends do not have the slightest inkling the scale of what happened in 1989 Tiananmen. Their media is heavily censored/controlled.

 

Both US and China arent perfect, but both have much to offer the world. US has helped end WW2 n brought notions of democracy, and brought material prosperity to much of the world. China's rapid rise, is also a beneficiary of that in some ways.

 

China on its part, lifted much of its citizens out of poverty in stellar progress made in education, economy, infrastructure in the last 3 decades. It didn't come by chance, it came from able administration and willingness to engage the world positively. 

 

But US has become a slow giant  constrained by its internal politics over the same period, it has, through changes in party in charge, flip-flopped on foreign policy and climate commitments as China charged ahead. They are both maneuvering and competing for raw materials and in development of latest tech in energy, in computing, in space, and while so doing frequently cast the other as the problem. We see what they do, but regular people should try to see beyond propaganda, from other countries, from their own country. We are more similar in our basic needs and aspirations than what political leaders want us to believe.

 

I don't have a rose-tinted view of both countries. I only wish basic sense prevails on both sides. The world lives on a single planet, it relies on major countries living with each other, while  smaller countries unfortunately has lesser say.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Steve5380]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:35 PM, PlayersGroup said:

 

Both US and China arent perfect, but both have much to offer the world. US has helped end WW2 n brought notions of democracy, and brought material prosperity to much of the world. China's rapid rise, is also a beneficiary of that in some ways.

 

China on its part, lifted much of its citizens out of poverty in stellar progress made in education, economy, infrastructure in the last 3 decades. It didn't come by chance, it came from able administration and willingness to engage the world positively. 

 

 

It is some stretch to put the US and China on the same footing. Remember that China has a totalitarian government.  But such a government makes it much easier to bring economic progress,  because it has much more power than a democratic one.  This is how fascist regimes brought so many positive advances, like Mussolini did in Italy,  Hitler in pre-war Germany.

 

But one downfall in China is the raising grip of the PRC on businesses.  It is said that many companies are giving up on their manufacturing facilities in China and are relocating to India and other countries with low cost of labor.  How will China attain the No. 1 economy if their labor force finds less work and their exports drop dramatically?  

 

Here is where in the US the Biden administration can do much good trying to bring back manufacturing to the country, and it hopefully can break the GOP opposition and increase the influx of immigrants, refugees,  to have plenty of workers and keep the cost of manufacturing and construction low.  America could DOUBLE its population without being overpopulated, while still having less than half the population of China and India.

 

And an economic decline in China could be the best deterrent for its territorial ambitions,  unable to prevail in an arms race with the US,  and then it could wisely renounce to an invasion of Taiwan.  It could renounce to ALL of its conflicts with neighbors,  renouncing to the lands it takes from India, renouncing to its dominance of the South China Sea,  renouncing to its "Economic Corridor" through Pakistan, since it would have no problems keeping the route of its oil supply through the Strait of Malacca.  This would also protect the oil refining industry in Singapore. 

 

All these "renouncing" by China could maintain a lasting peace in S. E. Asia. 

. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

I hope that the following video about China,  the main threat to Taiwan, is mostly "Western propaganda",  except...

... except in this that China's nuclear weapons are garbage,  which I hope is true, ha ha.

 

 

 

I wish that all this about China being a threat to any other country is false,  and that the reality is that China is a peaceful country full of brotherly love for the whole of humanity.   I wish that my wish could be true!

[PlayersGroup]

9 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

It is some stretch to put the US and China on the same footing. Remember that China has a totalitarian government...

 

And an economic decline in China could be the best deterrent for its territorial ambitions,  unable to prevail in an arms race with the US,  and then it could wisely renounce to an invasion of Taiwan.  It could renounce to ALL of its conflicts with neighbors,  renouncing to the lands it takes from India, renouncing to its dominance of the South China Sea,  renouncing to its "Economic Corridor" through Pakistan, since it would have no problems keeping the route of its oil supply through the Strait of Malacca.  This would also protect the oil refining industry in Singapore. 

 

I think it is unlikely for China, in economic good times or bad, to ever renounce its intention to bring Taiwan back under its control, invasion or not.

 

I also don't think a China in decline is beneficial to the world, at least not for the region. 

 

I do not know enough to comment on the India/China and other territorial disputes. But I wish Singapore and the world finds a way away from oil.

 

I honestly think, we are at a point of redefining what is progress and decline. If becoming rich with year on year GDP growth means degradation of our rich  biosphere, increase appetite for profit, power n war, then our existence on this planet is pretty pitiful.

 

America has made progress in the 200 years of existence. But it has also declined. The frequency of school shootings, its sociopolitical polarization and government frequently on the brink of shutdown, these are not the envy of the world. It makes ppl wonder, is that the end product of unconstrained democracy? Producing dysfunction  and demagogues.

 

China under the PRC has made huge material progress by and large, but it is not without its problems. Totalitarianism is a convenient label but if it had been only defined by its political structure, I dont think China would have reached the state of development it has today.

 

I wouldn't say China is on the same footing, and frankly China wanting to be number 1 was only said by someone who posted here, it may not be accurate. But what does China see itself want really? I don't think it is necessarily number one, or old-fashioned territorial expansion. Maybe closer to a return to a romanticized past Golden age, not just economically but culturally. How that eventually looks like, I'm not sure, but I'm quite sure it has to go beyond the American model to work.

[PlayersGroup]

7 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

 

I wish that all this about China being a threat to any other country is false,  and that the reality is that China is a peaceful country full of brotherly love for the whole of humanity.   I wish that my wish could be true!

 

I'm usually more reserved on content generated by YouTubers. In this case SerpentZA is known to be very anti-China after staying there a while. China-bashing is fashionable, but what's more difficult is separating fact from fiction and China not being exactly transparent and culture of centralized control doesn't help building understanding.

 

Just curious @Steve5380 politics aside, have u visited China? And if yes, where have u been? 

 

[Sweetie Pie]

1 hour ago, PlayersGroup said:

China-bashing is fashionable,

 

In the Anglo-Saxon world especially.  You can't find any logic to their behaviour and thinking process.  It is no wonder, instead of progressing, these countries are now in complete mess. 

[PlayersGroup]

17 minutes ago, Sweetie Pie said:

In the Anglo-Saxon world especially.  You can't find any logic to their behaviour and thinking process.  It is no wonder, instead of progressing, these countries are now in complete mess. 

 

On the contrary, we can try to  understand the logic of both worlds, they are both logical in their own ways. It's fascinating, when you try to imagine how China is seen through western eyes, or see America's history of interaction with China according to the Chinese narrative. The countries are not necessarily in a mess. Reality itself is messy.

 

I do the same with Buddhism vs Christianity, Fox News n CNN, LGBT advocacy vs American evangelists. Suspend judgement, then appreciate both.

 

We need to seek first to understand before we seek to agree or disagree. Too many people jump onto disagreement without properly understanding. Others aren't even aware there's a difference between the two. 

[Sweetie Pie]

2 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

We need to seek first to understand before we seek to agree or disagree.

Politically correct cop out answer will not stimulate the proper thinking process.  One only need to look closely at history, something that has already happened, in order to see clearly what is going to happen especially when a certain element is already fixed in the bigger scheme of thing. 

[PlayersGroup]

12 minutes ago, Sweetie Pie said:

Politically correct cop out answer will not stimulate the proper thinking process.  One only need to look closely at history, something that has already happened, in order to see clearly what is going to happen especially when a certain element is already fixed in the bigger scheme of thing. 

 

That's a lot of words, but what are you referring to?

 

[Sweetie Pie]

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

That's a lot of words, but what are you referring to?

 

I am saying, you can't change certain people mind whose objectives are already crafted on stone. 

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

That's a lot of words, but what are you referring to?

 

 

I like your philosophy and I wish it would apply everywhere.  But @Sweetie Pie mentioned something that carries some reality: modern history.  Yes, one hears "history is written by the winners",  but there is too much evidence in modern history to be able to be distorted to fit a given ideology. 

 

The history of China in the last 100 years is very tumultuous, full of facts that were not invented by the Western media. It may not reflect the pacific nature of the Chinese people because all the various governments who transitioned then were totalitarian, and so is the current one.  What would China be under a democratic government, or one with more individual rights?  Hopefully we will know one day.

[Guest Demoncratic]

46 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I like your philosophy and I wish it would apply everywhere.  But @Sweetie Piewhat would China be under a democratic government, or one with more individual rights?  Hopefully we will know one day.

Then everyone will be allowed to carry gun into school.  Fundamentalist religion will be allowed to thrive.  The political arena will be in chaos ilke America facing today.  Progression policies stalled every 5 years due to change of president.  Society became even more divided between rich and poor.  Reckless immigrants means more crime...the list is endless and not in a good light. 

[PlayersGroup]

3 hours ago, Sweetie Pie said:

I am saying, you can't change certain people mind whose objectives are already crafted on stone. 

 

I can try to guess who and what you mean, but I'd rather not assume. Can you be more specific, which people, what objectives do they have crafted in stone?