Taiwan, one of the unresolved issues in East Asia...

[PlayersGroup]

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

The history of China in the last 100 years is very tumultuous, full of facts that were not invented by the Western media. It may not reflect the pacific nature of the Chinese people because all the various governments who transitioned then were totalitarian, and so is the current one.  What would China be under a democratic government, or one with more individual rights?  Hopefully we will know one day.

 

No system of government is perfect and we have to look beyond ideology: Democracy? Totalitarian? 

 

In terms of providing for its people, both China and US has made tremendous progress in the last 100 years. Debatable which system is more effective given the vast differences in starting point and the size of population. One is perceived to have more individual and political freedoms than the other.

 

Systems can malfunction with faulty parts. US system produced a Donald Trump. China had a Yuan Shikai and a long history to learn about rulers of so many characters who exercised power for good or bad. I honestly don't think US or China have all the right answers to political organization. Most of us hope for the sweet spot of a system where the best outcomes are enjoyed without the least desirable consequences as seen in both countries.

[singalion]

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

facts that were not invented by the Western media. It may not reflect the pacific nature of the Chinese people

 

pacifist?

 

[singalion]

13 hours ago, Guest Demoncratic said:

Then everyone will be allowed to carry gun into school.  Fundamentalist religion will be allowed to thrive.  The political arena will be in chaos ilke America facing today.  Progression policies stalled every 5 years due to change of president.  Society became even more divided between rich and poor.  Reckless immigrants means more crime...the list is endless and not in a good light. 

 

Does Singapore or European countries allow everyone to carry a gun?

 

Presidents in China used to change after the 2nd term also...

 

 

Immigrants are all criminals? What sort of mindset is this Guest Guest?

 

[Guest Metaphor lesson]

According to Steve5380, America ought to chastise China for daring to serve Chinese food to its own citizens. He contends that American cuisine is the best and that it ought to be regarded as the world's basic staple diet. The West has been treating other nations in this way for a century.  He has yet to fully see why China's way of life continues to diverge from that of America and he felt completely unacceptable. 

[PlayersGroup]

28 minutes ago, Guest Metaphor lesson said:

According to Steve5380, America ought to chastise China for daring to serve Chinese food to its own citizens. He contends that American cuisine is the best and that it ought to be regarded as the world's basic staple diet. The West has been treating other nations in this way for a century.  He has yet to fully see why China's way of life continues to diverge from that of America and he felt completely unacceptable. 

 

Sorry my bad, I don't understand what you are trying to say and is that an opinion or a fact cos it's very non-specific.

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Guest Metaphor lesson said:

According to Steve5380, America ought to chastise China for daring to serve Chinese food to its own citizens. He contends that American cuisine is the best and that it ought to be regarded as the world's basic staple diet. The West has been treating other nations in this way for a century.  He has yet to fully see why China's way of life continues to diverge from that of America and he felt completely unacceptable. 

 

It is no Metaphor that Steve5380 eats very little Chinese food, very little American food, very little Mexican food, very little Indian food, very little French food.   He eats mostly STEVE food.   

 

But in Taiwan he ate Taiwanese food.

[Guest Metaphor lesson]

16 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

It is no Metaphor that Steve5380 eats very little Chinese food, very little American food, very little Mexican food, very little Indian food, very little French food.   He eats mostly STEVE food.   

 

But in Taiwan he ate Taiwanese food.

There is no such thing as Taiwanese food.  Taiwan are Chiniese and they ate Chinese food and prepared in traditional Chinese ways with Chinese ingredients passed down from thousand of years.   America should stop imposing its own recipes on other nation and spoil the Asian taste buds. 

[PlayersGroup]

11 minutes ago, Guest Metaphor lesson said:

There is no such thing as Taiwanese food.  Taiwan are Chiniese and they ate Chinese food and prepared in traditional Chinese ways with Chinese ingredients passed down from thousand of years.

 

Han or Minnan speaking Chinese Taiwanese maybe.

 

The Taiwanese aborigines will disagree tho. I think their culture has common lineage with Malays, the tribes in Australia, New Zealand and Philippines.

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, Guest Metaphor lesson said:

 

There is no such thing as Taiwanese food.  Taiwan are Chiniese and they ate Chinese food and prepared in traditional Chinese ways with Chinese ingredients passed down from thousand of years.  

 

 

Oh my God!   I didn't know that the food in Taiwan can have ingredients passed down from thousands of years!   Thank God I survived!    I have heard of Chinese eggs that are hundreds of years old,  but... thousands of years?

 

To claim that food in Taiwan should be called Chinese food...  isn't this the same as having Singaporean food called Malaysian food?

[Guest U Clueless?]

11 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

To claim that food in Taiwan should be called Chinese food...  isn't this the same as having Singaporean food called Malaysian food?

Frankly speaking,  Singaporean and Malaysian food are not much of a difference.  What you found in Singapore, can also be found in Malaysia vice versa.  The only difference is the price.  

[PlayersGroup]

1 hour ago, Guest U Clueless? said:

Frankly speaking,  Singaporean and Malaysian food are not much of a difference.  What you found in Singapore, can also be found in Malaysia vice versa.  The only difference is the price.  

 

Some Malaysians and Singaporeans may disagree. I think there are subtle differences already.

[Steve5380]

There is hope for an easing of tensions between China and the US.  Xi Jinping and Blinken met and talked, something that was doubted that it would happen.  GOOD!

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/china-us-blinken-beijing-trip_n_648ff5b5e4b04ee51a9c5de1

 

Hopefully China makes the right decision and maintains its status quo with Taiwan.  And if it takes a more friendly approach,  it can buy from TSMC all the semiconductors it wants.

.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Steve5380

[Guest Views]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

There is hope for an easing of tensions between China and the US.  Xi Jinping and Blinken met and talked, something that was doubted that it would happen.  GOOD!

 

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/china-us-blinken-beijing-trip_n_648ff5b5e4b04ee51a9c5de1

Blinken is a time waster and lies spreader.  He has nothing good to offer and still in desperate need to visit China.  Luckily, no red carpet for him. The past 3 years he could not even built any good relationship with many nations other than preaching war and acting arrogant.  Let's hope he is not invited into China precious soil again.  I would have him sacked and replaced by someone more independent and with good foresight.  Can't wait to see him leave immediately.  

[Steve5380]

1 minute ago, Guest Views said:

Blinken is a time waster and lies spreader.  He has nothing good to offer and still in desperate need to visit China.  Luckily, no red carpet for him. The past 3 years he could not even built any good relationship with many nations other than preaching war and acting arrogant.  Let's hope he is not invited into China precious soil again.  I would have him sacked and replaced by someone more independent and with good foresight.  Can't wait to see him leave immediately.  

 

Fortunately,  you don't have any power to "sack Blinken and replace him by someone more independent".   You are thinking of replacing him with some of the abominable GOP politicians?   Remember that Trump so pissed off China and started a trade war with them!   The Biden Administration is one of wise adults,  while the GOP only offers war mongers who behave like spoiled malevolent brats!    " I can declassify the most sensitive nuclear secret documents IN MY MIND ".  Who said this?

[singalion]

On 6/18/2023 at 6:56 PM, PlayersGroup said:

 

Sorry my bad, I don't understand what you are trying to say and is that an opinion or a fact cos it's very non-specific.

 

I assume the Guest's post was meant as a comparison of dumbling to burger.... 😂

 

[Guest Proof in the pudding]

48 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

Remember that Trump so pissed off China and started a trade war with them!   The Biden Administration is one of wise adults,

Of course we all remember Trump pushed for the trade war, not just on China but Joe Biden continue with Trump  policy and shove the trade war many notches further, specifically targeted on China and forbade America alliies to trade with China too. Blinken visit disclosed all these facts and he admitted the relationship with China was soured as the result. 

[singalion]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:12 PM, PlayersGroup said:

 

Han or Minnan speaking Chinese Taiwanese maybe.

 

The Taiwanese aborigines will disagree tho. I think their culture has common lineage with Malays, the tribes in Australia, New Zealand and Philippines.

 

Sure there are cooking differences between Mainland china and Taiwan, just to mention the "stinky Tofu" dish. This is very Taiwanese. 

 

There are some Taiwanese "aboriginees" also that have a specific cooking. 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

The greatest disservice to China often happens when anonymous supporters of China picks incessant quarrels with others online.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[singalion]

1 hour ago, Guest Proof in the pudding said:

Of course we all remember Trump pushed for the trade war, not just on China but Joe Biden continue with Trump  policy and shove the trade war many notches further, specifically targeted on China and forbade America alliies to trade with China too. Blinken visit disclosed all these facts and he admitted the relationship with China was soured as the result. 

 

Just unbacked claims....Substantiation lacking...

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

10 minutes ago, Guest huh??????????????????????? said:

which is the size of a pea in comparison to China

 

Why the need to belittle others to make China great by comparison? True supporters of China wouldn't need to do this. It is a disservice to China, if that is the aim.

 

 

 

[Guest Reader]

56 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Why the need to belittle others to make China great by comparison? True supporters of China wouldn't need to do this. It is a disservice to China, if that is the aim.

 

 

 

 

 

Belittle others ? Please see the news of western media outlets constantly  promoting China hate and fear messages. If any belittling is to be made, it came from USA and its lackey allies who is always stirring shit on China, and not just the country but also other Asian, African, Middle East and South American countries thinking they were still in their former glorious colonial days. 

 

And you can save your so called neutral position lies to yourself  cos readers here can see your subtle pro--western views bullshit.

 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

3 minutes ago, Guest Reader said:

And you can save your so called neutral position lies to yourself  cos readers here can see your subtle pro--western views bullshit.

 

I am only pro-western when I see pro-China bullshit. I am also pro-China when I see pro-western bullshit.

 

You have no genuine understanding of how much I am pro-China only because you think pro-Western means anti-China. Which it isn't, until your posts make ppl do so.

[Guest Reader]

5 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

I am only pro-western when I see pro-China bullshit. I am also pro-China when I see pro-western bullshit.

 

You have no genuine understanding of how much I am pro-China only because you think pro-Western means anti-China. Which it isn't, until your posts make ppl do so.

 

What a self serving statement  ! Haha, you are entitled to your views as I'm entitled to mine.

 

[Guest Reader]

13 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

I am only pro-western when I see pro-China bullshit. I am also pro-China when I see pro-western bullshit.

 

You have no genuine understanding of how much I am pro-China only because you think pro-Western means anti-China. Which it isn't, until your posts make ppl do so.

 

I will let other readers be of the judge.  For me, I'm not  a subscriber of your bullshit. 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

14 minutes ago, Guest Reader said:

 

I will let other readers be of the judge.  For me, I'm not  a subscriber of your bullshit. 

 

You don't have to take my bullshit. You just learn to be humble, there is 5000 years of heritage and cultural sophistication for you to learn from, Chinese culture does not teach being nasty to others who hold different views, it does not teach dichotomous thinking. So many philosophers, so much history and so many schools of thought, ways of approaching discussion and problems of the world. You can forget about me or what bullshit I said and just need to do justice to the China you support.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Guest Reader]

40 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

You don't have to take my bullshit. You just learn to be humble, there is 5000 years of heritage and cultural sophistication for you to learn from, Chinese culture does not teach being nasty to others who hold different views, it does not teach dichotomous thinking. So many philosophers, so much history and so many schools of thought, ways of approaching discussion and problems of the world. You can forget about me or what bullshit I said and just need to do justice to the China you support.

 

 

 

 

Oh yes, that's why you don't see China criticising other countries unless being provoked unlike the arrogant but no substance western countries.  Be humble doesn't mean one can be bullied and ridden over. There's  a time to be humble and a time to be defensive. I'm not a pro PRC but I'm definitely anti  western biased and bullying propaganda. 

 

If the western countries wanna criticise other developing or weaker countries. they should examine their own  domestic mess and start pulling up their socks to improve their internal country affairs to earn the respect of other countries and  not by bullying countries to adopt ther flawed style of governing and try to get the rest of the world to be in the same shit as them. 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

If you are not pro-PRC, then kindly stop sullying PRC's stature here by making these small-minded comparisions about China and the Western world. As someone who has been taught since young by my parents to appreciate and respect all things Chinese and who loves Chinese culture, I don't appreciate the disservice done to China by supposed supporters. 

 

The American or western worldview and philosophies have their virtuous elements and not as useless as you see them. I appreciate all good things brought about by western culture and civilisation and it has every bit to do with me being a simple human being acknowledge the heritage of humankind as a whole, not me being anti-China or pro-western, however much you like to put people like me into some camp so you can pick a quarrel with for no reason.

 

Sure, China was bullied in the past and clearly the western media is biased, but it does not excuse the problems China has to solve for herself, and it doesn't absolve China when she behaves poorly with her neighbours. China can be great, and she can be great sooner she acknowledges her own shortcomings without demanding others not to offend her. I say this with all the goodwill I have which you may not think I have, but that is not my loss. 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, Guest Reader said:

 

I will let other readers be of the judge.  For me, I'm not  a subscriber of your bullshit. 

 

 

I am an "other readers", and I will give my judgmental opinion too. 

 

I have been following problems in China and it breaks my heart seeing so many people being affected by the housing crisis and lately the huge flooding there.  It equally breaks my heart the experience of the victims of the fire that burned down the town on the west of Maui.  Exactly the same feelings.

 

We learned immediately about the wildfire destroying Lahaina.  The news came in unobstructed.  Help stepped in immediately, by civilians and government.  The place was immediately declared a disaster area, and supplies are coming in to help people survive and thereafter reconstruct.  No restrictions exist here driven by politics.

 

In contrast, the serious flooding in China, much of it man-made,  is being hushed up by the PRC to save its image, there is no free press,  help by the government is non existent or late,  and it is being set up for... propaganda. It seems clear that the PRC does not care if large number of its people perish,  of the 1.4 billion, there are plenty more left anyway.  It seems that the government there treats normal people like you and me as disposable peasants.

 

About real estate,  huge constructing companies in China built many high rises, sold the flats to the people, but have not finished them, so they are not habitable.  The poor victims of this situation must keep paying for the mortgages but don't have the home they purchased.  And they are completely helpless!

 

How can one justify a totalitarian government like this?  China has sufficient military power to have a zero risk of being attacked and invaded by any other power.  So what is its need to spend all out to become a "superpower"?  and let its people get broke in the process?   What is its need to lavishly spend in huge projects that are for show,  while its people become homeless and perish?  Where are the 5000 years of heritage and sophistication reflected in its current government?   Imagine if their totalitarianism spreads around the world... God save us!

 

 

[Guest Reader]

4 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

If you are not pro-PRC, then kindly stop sullying PRC's stature here by making these small-minded comparisions about China and the Western world. As someone who has been taught since young by my parents to appreciate and respect all things Chinese and who loves Chinese culture, I don't appreciate the disservice done to China by supposed supporters. 

 

The American or western worldview and philosophies have their virtuous elements and not as useless as you see them. I appreciate all good things brought about by western culture and civilisation and it has every bit to do with me being a simple human being acknowledge the heritage of humankind as a whole, not me being anti-China or pro-western, however much you like to put people like me into some camp so you can pick a quarrel with for no reason.

 

Sure, China was bullied in the past and clearly the western media is biased, but it does not excuse the problems China has to solve for herself, and it doesn't absolve China when she behaves poorly with her neighbours. China can be great, and she can be great sooner she acknowledges her own shortcomings without demanding others not to offend her. I say this with all the goodwill I have which you may not think I have, but that is not my loss. 

 

 

I was right to call out your bullshit. 

 

"but it does not excuse the problems China has to solve for herself, and it doesn't absolve China when she behaves poorly with her neighbours." Sure China can solve its own damn problems for all I care. Behaving poorly  ? Nah, tell that to the western countries who bully or oppress countries or tried to stir up shit in Asia miles away from their home countries to create war tensions. 

 

The western countries are in a bad shape now whether you like it or not. It's one thing if your country is in a mess and another when these countries try to dictate how other countries run their governments according to their shitty standards.

 

If you want to bootlick western countries, at least do it upfront instead of being a hypocrite. That's my view, you are entitled to yours.

 

 

 

[Sweetie Pie]

In a nutshell....

 

Taiwan is currently run by an ineffective government. It no longer aspires to be a peaceful nation. It has a strong desire to serve as America's proxy states  and eagerly invited some anti-China foreign ex politicians, who had been removed/ousted, to sow division in Taiwan Straits in exchange for hefty fees.

 

With the Boogeyman being continuously fed by America with bad intentions, its leaders became brain fogged.   Its armies are ineffective and have never engaged in a genuine War made worse by America lousy military training.   In order to drain the island's reserves, America sold outmoded, inferior, ineffective weapons to the island and  its people live in constant fear, not of imagined China invasion, but  of being anti-establishment and being surveilled, by their own politicians because their country is not totally democratic.

[PlayersGroup]

 

 

If you want to bootlick western countries, at least do it upfront instead of being a hypocrite. That's my view, you are entitled to yours.

 

 

Pity your mind sees bootlickers n hypocrites where people are having a proper discussion. If the west is so horrible, type to me in Chinese and stop using English altogether. Log off from the web and do not use any technology and engineering remotely tied to or developed by Europe, America since the 19th century to present day.

 

European and American standards are shitty? You must have not heard of the shams and scams still emanating from China targeting their own people and people the world over, with scam robocalls every other day to our phones, the catfish and investment and love scammers online, the fake food fake milk powder and fake rice scandals poisoning their own babies through their food supply. Did you read about the Shanghai people's plight during the covid lockdowns, Shanghai, one of their most advanced cities 一线城市? Did you read about the covid cover-ups in Wuhan? Did you read about the animals n pets that were killed out of fear they spread covid? Before you say these are biased western propaganda, I consume both Chinese and English media, and the earliest videos of the mysterious illness killing people came out from China itself but was rapidly censored. It's not that China has no standards, they do, but are the standards adhered to? So much for standards. 

 

Don't broadbrush the whole of Europe and America the same way you generalise about China. Your rhetoric is precisely the reason why people would get turned off about China's nationalistic fervor and sympathize with Taiwan's situation instead.

 

China isn't all bad, as is America and Europe. The real hypocrisy and bullshit  is seeing things as all or none.

[Steve5380]

 

 

The western countries are in a bad shape now whether you like it or not. It's one thing if your country is in a mess and another when these countries try to dictate how other countries run their governments according to their shitty standards.

 

 

The western countries are in their normal shape, not bad shape.  No country is in perfect shape.

 

Powerful western countries don't dictate how other countries run their governments anymore.  They have to PUT UP with how they run their governments.   For example,  the US cannot change the government of China.   But it can affect the FOREIGN ACTIONS of this government, in this topic the threat of China to invade Taiwan.

 

If China does not threaten other countries,  no one will "dictate" their actions.    Same with Russia.

[Sweetie Pie]

 

 in this topic the threat of China to invade Taiwan.

Ain't you tired of persistently telling us there is a boogeyman hiding inside your closet?    Did Washington and Western medias kept telling you that China will invade Taiwan in 2023, 2025 and 2030 and you took their Gospel wholesale?  Were you not aware that America kept asking Japan and South Korea to stop doing business with China.  Europe aside.  Were you not aware that America wanted Phillipine to test China's bounderies?  Were you not aware that America wanted Indonesia to choose side?  Were you not Aware that Joe Biden wanted to visit vietnam to stir shit with China?   Were you not aware that America kept dragging india and Australia into confrontation with China and insisted that New Zealand pick side?  Why the hassle to travel 3000 miles to the East to stir shit when the West is battling with their own internal problems and there is no sign of America stopping its wayward and devilish behaviour in Asia where it can't even win a war with China if both were to fight it out. It is hard to imagine America will prevail and why waste time in doing coercion instead of solving its own political problems?

 

Who is threatening who?  I suspect you are mentally sick, please see a doctor!

Edited August 15, 2023 by Sweetie Pie

[Steve5380]

 

Ain't you tired of persistently telling us there is a boogeyman hiding inside your closet?    Did Washington and Western medias kept telling you that China will invade Taiwan in 2023, 2025 and 2030 and you took their Gospel wholesale?  Were you not aware that America kept asking Japan and South Korea to stop doing business with China.  Europe aside.  Were you not aware that America wanted Phillipine to test China's bounderies?  Were you not aware that America wanted Indonesia to choose side?  Were you not Aware that Joe Biden wanted to visit vietnam to stir shit with China?   Were you not aware that America kept dragging india and Australia into confrontation with China and insisted that New Zealand pick side?  Why the hassle to travel 3000 miles to the East to stir shit when the West is battling with their own internal problems and there is no sign of America stopping its wayward and devilish behaviour in Asia where it can't even win a war with China if both were to fight it out. It is hard to imagine America will prevail and why waste time in doing coercion instead of solving its own political problems?

 

Who is threatening who?  I suspect you are mentally sick, please see a doctor!

 

Oh Sweety Pie,  you are so sweetly comical "suspecting that I am mentally sick".  

 

Isn't it true that China has decided that its "reunification" with Taiwan should take place in a few years?   If Taiwan refuses this "reunification",  what other solution will China have but to cross the water way that separates them and invade Taiwan?   Or could it tie a huge rope around Taiwan and pull it towards its mainland until it merges with it?

 

Isn't this insane compulsion by China to "reunify" with Taiwan by force if necessary the source of all the hostile strategic planning and alliances with surrounding nations to oppose such a forceful "reunification"?  And there are other actions by China that are hostile: its claim of sovereignty over large portions of the Sea of China that are now recognized as international waters, and its building of artificial islands that become military bases that may help in its improper conquest of these international waters.   

 

Are you keeping your eyes closed so that you don't have to read the news about the military exercises by China encircling Taiwan dangerously close? 

.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Steve5380

[PlayersGroup]

 

 

Isn't this insane compulsion by China to "reunify" with Taiwan by force if necessary the source of all the hostile strategic planning and alliances with surrounding nations to oppose such a forceful "reunification"? 

 

 

@Steve5380, this is something I respectfully differ. The way i see it, the situation is a historical remnant of an unfinished civil war between Kuomintang's ROC and the Communist PRC.

 

I think you read the surrounding nations inaccurately. My opinion is that we as neighbours we just want things to be resolved between the 2 sides amicably, with no instability and repercussions to the lives and livelihoods of people in China and the surrounding countries. The truth is all of the surrounding countries recognises PRC, not Taiwan, as an independent nation. That is unlikely to change.

 

The US, on the other hand, views China as competitor and can gain strategically from a divided China, so it is no surprise that all the high level interaction with independent-advocate DPP is seen by China as US provocation. The "insane compulsion to reunify" to you is "reasonable assertion to reclaim territorial integrity" to China and its people, peacefully if possible. If Taiwan doesn't renounce the possibility of independence, is quite impossible to expect China to renounce the use of force if necessary.

 

Not that I agree with war, just saying how it is. The situation with China-Taiwan is quite different between Russia and Ukraine.

[Sweetie Pie]

 

 

@Steve5380, this is something I respectfully differ. The way i see it, the situation is a historical remnant of an unfinished civil war between Kuomintang's ROC and the Communist PRC.

 

Save it.  That old man is history challenged.  You didn't want to know where all his anti-China emotions came from.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Sweetie Pie

[Steve5380]

 

 

@Steve5380, this is something I respectfully differ. The way i see it, the situation is a historical remnant of an unfinished civil war between Kuomintang's ROC and the Communist PRC.

 

I think you read the surrounding nations inaccurately. My opinion is that we as neighbours we just want things to be resolved between the 2 sides amicably, with no instability and repercussions to the lives and livelihoods of people in China and the surrounding countries. The truth is all of the surrounding countries recognises PRC, not Taiwan, as an independent nation. That is unlikely to change.

 

The US, on the other hand, views China as competitor and can gain strategically from a divided China, so it is no surprise that all the high level interaction with independent-advocate DPP is seen by China as US provocation. The "insane compulsion to reunify" to you is "reasonable assertion to reclaim territorial integrity" to China and its people, peacefully if possible. If Taiwan doesn't renounce the possibility of independence, is quite impossible to expect China to renounce the use of force if necessary.

 

Not that I agree with war, just saying how it is. The situation with China-Taiwan is quite different between Russia and Ukraine.

 

Yes, we have our friendly differences, and I apologize for my crude opinions.  Of course you see the situation from a different perspective.  

 

Since 1946 when Taiwan seceded and in the 90s when it became a democracy,  a lot of time has passed for an amicable resolution of the separation, for a will of the Taiwanese to reunite with the mainland.  This has not happened.  And this is the only moral way for a reunification:  mutual will to do so.  

 

One can empathize with the Taiwanese in their desire to remain independent, in their obvious reluctance to live like other Chinese have to do under the PRC.  And especially after the PRC came down hard on Hong Kong after it took back control from the UK.  Should the will of the Taiwanese for freedom and independence be brushed off?  Are they some worthless pawns of the political ambitions of the PRC? Why cannot "the two Chinas" coexist separately and peacefully???

 

This nice phrase "reasonable assertion to reclaim territorial integrity" is in reality a THREAT:  "you either renounce to your independence and come back, or we will attack you!".  Isn't this similar to what Hitler's Germany did with Poland, except that it did not give a warning and waited before invading?

 

You wrote that "it is quite impossible to expect China to renounce the use of force if necessary".  QUITE IMPOSSIBLE??  It may not be impossible at all...  if China sees that it will lose if it resorts to the use of force.  Chinese are highly intelligent, and they won't start a war in a condition of inferiority.    And here is where the West,  the US comes in.   Like the Hero who sees a vulnerable victim being bullied by the powerful, it is willing to take out his sword and come to the defense of the threatened one. 

 

Imagine if China's PRC would make a public declaration renouncing to the reunification with Taiwan and accepting its independence!!!   This is NOT impossible. It can justify it by prioritizing instead to fix its economic situation and help the millions victim of the huge floods, the unemployment and collapse of the housing markets. The whole world would give a big sigh of relief,  and the stock values of the weapons industries would fall precipitously. And China would get all the best semiconductors it wants from TSMC!   

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Steve5380

[Guest Yawn!!]

 

 

Yes, we have our friendly differences, and I apologize for my crude opinions.  Of course you see the situation from a different perspective.  

 

Since 1946 when Taiwan seceded and in the 90s when it became a democracy,  a lot of time has passed for an amicable resolution of the separation, for a will of the Taiwanese to reunite with the mainland.  This has not happened.  And this is the only moral way for a reunification:  mutual will to do so.  

 

One can empathize with the Taiwanese in their desire to remain independent, in their obvious reluctance to live like other Chinese have to do under the PRC.  And especially after the PRC came down hard on Hong Kong after it took back control from the UK.  Should the will of the Taiwanese for freedom and independence be brushed off?  Are they some worthless pawns of the political ambitions of the PRC? Why cannot "the two Chinas" coexist separately and peacefully???

 

This nice phrase "reasonable assertion to reclaim territorial integrity" is in reality a THREAT:  "you either renounce to your independence and come back, or we will attack you!".  Isn't this similar to what Hitler's Germany did with Poland, except that it did not give a warning and waited before invading?

 

You wrote that "it is quite impossible to expect China to renounce the use of force if necessary".  QUITE IMPOSSIBLE??  It may not be impossible at all...  if China sees that it will lose if it resorts to the use of force.  Chinese are highly intelligent, and they won't start a war in a condition of inferiority.    And here is where the West,  the US comes in.   Like the Hero who sees a vulnerable victim being bullied by the powerful, it is willing to take out his sword and come to the defense of the threatened one. 

 

Imagine if China's PRC would make a public declaration renouncing to the reunification with Taiwan and accepting its independence!!!   This is NOT impossible. It can justify it by prioritizing instead to fix its economic situation and help the millions victim of the huge floods, the unemployment and collapse of the housing markets. The whole world would give a big sigh of relief,  and the stock values of the weapons industries would fall precipitously. And China would get all the best semiconductors it wants from TSMC!   

 

 

I am more worried about Hawaii current situation than your other silly imagination.

[Steve5380]

 

I am more worried about Hawaii current situation than your other silly imagination.

 

If you are so worried about Hawaii,  go to Maui and help the people there!

[singalion]

 

this is something I respectfully differ. The way i see it, the situation is a historical remnant of an unfinished civil war between Kuomintang's ROC and the Communist PRC.

 

not only. The PRC doesn't tolerate that Taiwan offers a different governmental system that works. 

 

Taiwan is a sting that contradicts the PRC narrative every day for the past 30 years. 

 

If the PRC people would find put how Taiwan's political system works it would be a hefty blow to the CCP. 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

 

Since 1946 when Taiwan seceded and in the 90s when it became a democracy,  a lot of time has passed for an amicable resolution of the separation, for a will of the Taiwanese to reunite with the mainland.  This has not happened.  And this is the only moral way for a reunification:  mutual will to do so.  

 

1. The Kuomintang retreated to Taiwan with proclamation it will counter attack CCP to reclaim the Mainland as ROC. This is not secession, unlike say if America's South want to secede to form a Republic States of America RSA, or the other party wants to form a DSA.

 

2. A lot of time is relative. China as a distinct polity across diff dynasties is quite old. Whether we agree with the way they exert control, HK, Macau was taken away from them through unequal treaties after Opium wars (dishonorable behaviour by UK by today's standards if you ask me). Japan took Taiwan from China but returned it to ROC in 1952. That they are one polity (Mainland China, HK, Macau, Taiwan) was never in doubt in modern history.

 

3. The only thing I agree with you is the consideration of aspirations of the people in Taiwan. Would US consider secession of Republican/Democrat states (depending on which party is in power)? 

 

 

"reasonable assertion to reclaim territorial integrity" is in reality a THREAT:  "you either renounce to your independence and come back, or we will attack you!".

 

Imagine if China's PRC would make a public declaration renouncing to the reunification with Taiwan and accepting its independence!!!   This is NOT impossible. 

 

4. It is a threat of course, Kuomintang threatened to take back the Mainland too, they have an unfinished civil war. But Kuomintang lost favour with its populace several times because of corruption and DPP gained power and the people's aspirations are more different now than just 2 decades back. But if ROC n PRC at war means both sides are one China, in a democratic situation, what of the aspirations of the majority of Chinese on the mainland?

 

The human experiment with democracy as a way of political organisation is not completed, and it doesn't have all the answers. Especially on the issue of disintegration of nations when individual areas all want independence from each other. That's why it's always messy talking about secession. From East Timor, Catalonia (or Texas?).

 

Do we respect the will of majority in a minor part of a nation, or respect the will of the majority in the nation itself? Who has the say?

 

5. I think it all sounds logical n reasonable to outsiders for China to agree to independence of Taiwan. But to especially the Mainland Chinese, it is to allow breaking up their country, after it was taken away from them by force, returned to them in 1952 n then broken up by civil war, with support from an interested outsider bully the US.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Sweetie Pie]

 

 

If you are so worried about Hawaii,  go to Maui and help the people there!

Unlike Beijing hardworking workers and government who rendered aids to flood victims,  Joe Biden and its 60,000-strong military presence are completely unconcerned with what is occurring in Maui. When questioned, Joe Biden said that he had no comment about the situation, he preferred to "wait and see", and that he was currently on vacation and has no intention to think about the situation. 80% of Maui is now totally destroyed, with hundreds reduced to ash and thousands remain missing. Casualties are mounting by the days.  Nobody in the white house cares about Maui as much as they "care" about human rights in other countries. WHAT AN IRONY!!

[Steve5380]

 

 

The human experiment with democracy as a way of political organisation is not completed, and it doesn't have all the answers. Especially on the issue of disintegration of nations when individual areas all want independence from each other. That's why it's always messy talking about secession. From East Timor, Catalonia (or Texas?).

 

Do we respect the will of majority in a minor part of a nation, or respect the will of the majority in the nation itself? Who has the say?

 

 

As an ethnic Chinese you have a much better understanding of your people than I do.  But...  isn't sometimes the view by a foreigner more clear than that of an insider?  

 

What is the will of "the majority" in mainland China?   This majority is made up by PEASANTS,  hundreds of millions who have no say about their lives, who are mistreated by the few elites in power.  What opinion will they have about Taiwan, when their minds are busy desperately trying to survive in the horrible floods, having lost EVERYTHING they had, having no help, no food, no housing, no work?   It is not THEY who want reunification with Taiwan,  it is Xi Jinping and his cronies who force them to want reunification, although nobody asks their opinion! 

 

 

 

2. A lot of time is relative. China as a distinct polity across diff dynasties is quite old. Whether we agree with the way they exert control, HK, Macau was taken away from them through unequal treaties after Opium wars (dishonorable behaviour by UK by today's standards if you ask me). Japan took Taiwan from China but returned it to ROC in 1952. That they are one polity (Mainland China, HK, Macau, Taiwan) was never in doubt in modern history.

 

 

If this is your ideology, you have to side with Putin in trying to recover the "polity of the Soviet Union", and so invade all the countries that seceded from Russia.  "DISTINCT POLITY ACROSS DYNASTIES" ??   So many polities have split among independent countries!   South America is full of independent states of a same "polity".  And the misbehavior of the PRC in regard to the returned Hong Kong was that they completely disregarded the conditions of the return instead of respecting the relative autonomy of the former colony.  WHO KNOWS what the PRC would do to Taiwan and the Taiwanese if there were a reunification...

 

 

 

4. It is a threat of course, Kuomintang threatened to take back the Mainland too, they have an unfinished civil war. But Kuomintang lost favour with its populace several times because of corruption and DPP gained power and the people's aspirations are more different now than just 2 decades back. But if ROC n PRC at war means both sides are one China, in a democratic situation, what of the aspirations of the majority of Chinese on the mainland?

 

The human experiment with democracy as a way of political organisation is not completed, and it doesn't have all the answers. Especially on the issue of disintegration of nations when individual areas all want independence from each other. That's why it's always messy talking about secession. From East Timor, Catalonia (or Texas?).

 

 

Let's take another example.  Korea was united before their war, that resulted in a South and a North Korea.  They also have an unfinished civil war.  What you think?  Should S. Korea return to be part of N. Korea under  Kim Jong-Un?  If you were a S. Korean, would you like to be governed by Kim Jong-Un?    Or should the North join the South under its democratic government?   Shouldn't the mainland China reunite with Taiwan under Taiwan's government?   THIS is what the whole Chinese polity would love,  if they had a chance to know reality and exercise their will !

 

[Sweetie Pie]

 

 

majority is made up by PEASANTS,  hundreds of millions who have no say about their lives, who are mistreated by the few elites in power.  What opinion will they have about Taiwan, when their minds are busy desperately trying to survive in the horrible floods, having lost EVERYTHING they had, having no help, no food, no housing, no work?   It is not THEY who want reunification with Taiwan,  it is Xi Jinping and his cronies who force them to want reunification, although nobody asks their opinion!

 

 

Flawed argument. Pure speculations. No basis from someone living inside the America closet.

 

5. I think it all sounds logical n reasonable to outsiders for China to agree to independence of Taiwan.

 

Keep thinking.  Nobody is going to agree with your Unrealistic expectation.  When asked by Bloomberg if he supported Taiwan's independence, the potential presidential candidate in Taiwan responded, "NO PLAN TO BE SO AND THAT HE IS HOPING TO BE FRIEND WITH XI JINGPING" .   Case close.

[PlayersGroup]

 

Nobody is going to agree with your Unrealistic expectation.  When asked by Bloomberg if he supported Taiwan's independence, the potential presidential candidate in Taiwan responded, "NO PLAN TO BE SO AND THAT HE IS HOPING TO BE FRIEND WITH XI JINGPING" .   Case close.

 

I think you misunderstood two things.

 

One, if u read the whole of my paragraph and don't take it out of context, I mean to say outsider who doesn't know better would think it's logical n reasonable for China to accept Taiwan independence. Except it isn't logical to China at all.

 

Two, Taiwan Independence is in DPP's Constitution (the first line), even if the candidate says no plans to be so, assuming the candidate is from DPP.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[PlayersGroup]

 

 

isn't sometimes the view by a foreigner more clear than that of an insider?  

 

 

PEASANTS,  hundreds of millions who have no say about their lives, who are mistreated by the few elites in power.  What opinion will they have about Taiwan, when their minds are busy desperately trying to survive...

 

 

If this is your ideology, you have to side with Putin in trying to recover the "polity of the Soviet Union"...

 

If the assessment and opinion is supported by evidence and facts, it does not matter foreigner or not.

 

China is no North Korea and though there is huge income disparity, the proportion of middle upper class with expanded life and educational opportunities has skyrocketed since opening up. See chart below from World Bank. Per Capita is above Thailand and Philippines. Most mainlanders and some Taiwanese are pro-unification.

 

As I said, Ukraine and Russia is different. It has been declared independent since 1991 and internationally recognised after the Soviet Union collapsed. Taiwan has no such international recognition and the state of civil war between Republic of China and People's Republic of China is in a stalemate, a truce, but not over. Taiwan has not declared independence too and still callas itself Republic Of China, not Republic of Taiwan.

 

South Korea and North Korea is recognized internationally as two different states. Taiwan and China is not that situation too.

 

I'm just an observer and I don't subscribe to China's ideologies, just describing the current situation. Taiwanese democracy yes I think is quite worthy of preserving, but their politics, and the state of their media and general media literacy of its people makes one worried about the state of their democracy.

 

Is there a peaceful solution to Taiwan n China mainland? I really hope so. But it's for them to decide.

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Sweetie Pie]

 

 

 

Two, Taiwan Independence is in DPP's Constitution (the first line), even if the candidate says no plans to be so, assuming the candidate is from DPP.

 

The DPP's constitution is shaky and cannot withstand an examination of its legitimacy on Taiwan as independence country.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Sweetie Pie

[PlayersGroup]

 

The DPP's constitution is shaky and cannot withstand an examination of its legitimacy.

 

Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion, but I'm just saying any DPP candidate who says they are not pro-independence is not being congruent with their own stated constitution.

[PlayersGroup]

 

 

Legitimate or not is a matter of opinion, but I'm just saying any DPP candidate who says they are not pro-independence is not being congruent with their own stated constitution.

I just did a Google Search. Correction, it is stated in DPP's Party Platform not constitution: "1. Establishing Taiwan as a sovereign, independent, and autonomous nation."

[Sweetie Pie]

 

I just did a Google Search. Correction, it is stated in DPP's Party Platform not constitution: "1. Establishing Taiwan as a sovereign, independent, and autonomous nation."

There you go, it is just a manifesto, The risk of being drawn into an unnecessary war with China by separatist delusional ideology prevented American presidents from supporting DPP's manifesto.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Sweetie Pie