Would you want Same-sex marriage or Civil Partnership?

[cityhallguy]

Ever since SG raised the topic of repealing 377A and the religious leaders are worried of the rainbow community (us) that we will bring in same-sex marriage at a later stage. 
 

To me, I give my respect to all religions if they have been taught and advocated that marriage is always between a man and a woman. I’m actually fine and no issues with it. So frankly speaking, I’m okay and wouldn’t pursue for same-sex marriage. 
 

However, I would pursue for Civil-partnership which allows same sex genders to form a Union partnership that is similar to marriage. Civil-partnership allows the partners to have the legally right to make decisions for one another when the “time” comes. Furthermore, Civil-partnership is not marriage so it has nothing to do with the religions. Pursuing Civil partnership is to help same-genders couple to have their legal rights to be together in the eye of the law and in future can do things together such as applying for flats as a couple legally. 
 

So what do the rainbow community think? 

[StockBottom]

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Edited August 20, 2022 by StockBottom

[singalion]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:39 PM, cityhallguy said:

Ever since SG raised the topic of repealing 377A and the religious leaders are worried of the rainbow community (us) that we will bring in same-sex marriage at a later stage. 
 

To me, I give my respect to all religions if they have been taught and advocated that marriage is always between a man and a woman. I’m actually fine and no issues with it. So frankly speaking, I’m okay and wouldn’t pursue for same-sex marriage. 
 

However, I would pursue for Civil-partnership which allows same sex genders to form a Union partnership that is similar to marriage. Civil-partnership allows the partners to have the legally right to make decisions for one another when the “time” comes. Furthermore, Civil-partnership is not marriage so it has nothing to do with the religions. Pursuing Civil partnership is to help same-genders couple to have their legal rights to be together in the eye of the law and in future can do things together such as applying for flats as a couple legally. 
 

So what do the rainbow community think? 

 

As the Singapore legal status does not recognise civil partnerships between straight people and doesn't grant any rights to partners, why should then gays be pushed into any such artificial thing.

 

I don't think the discussion at this point of time is good.

 

Let the government first repeal 377A, then we can talk.

 

The contra fighters for repealing 377A, who oppose the repeal, will only take such discussions here as evidence that we are pushing for gay marriage to obstruct the repeal of 377A and will talk of "gay agenda".

 

One thing at the appropriate time.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by singalion

[cityhallguy]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:56 PM, singalion said:

 

As the Singapore legal status does not recognise civil partnerships between straight people and doesn't grant any rights to partners, why should then gays be pushed into any such artificial thing.

 

I don't think the discussion at this point of time is good.

 

Let the government first repeal 377A, then we can talk.

 

The contra fighters for repealing 377A, who oppose the repeal, will only take such discussions here as evidence that we are pushing for gay marriage to obstruct the repeal of 377A and will talk of "gay agenda".

 

One thing at the appropriate time.

 

 

You are right one thing at the appropriate time, however, this same-sex marriage topic was brought up by the religions leaders. 

[singalion]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:45 PM, cityhallguy said:

You are right one thing at the appropriate time, however, this same-sex marriage topic was brought up by the religions leaders. 

 

But as a tool to argue against the repeal of 377A. You seem to have fallen into their trap. 

 

Now, they can say your real agenda for the repeal is gay marriage...

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by singalion

[cityhallguy]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:58 AM, singalion said:

 

But as a tool to argue against the repeal of 377A. You seem to have fallen into their trap. 

 

Now, they can say your real agenda for the repeal is gay marriage...

 

Ha. Please read my initial post again. Also what you say does not represent the whole community. 
 

My intention of putting up this topic is to find out “Does the rainbow community here really after same-sex marriage?”
Or the community here is just simply want a same rights as a marriage couple so that in “time”, when needed, the partner can help making decisions.

 

The “time” I referring is making decision such as partner life supports, partner emergency surgery and partner will arrangements, etc. 

 

My initial post included my POV and this allows people here to think. They will have different views and thought and with respect to each individual views, we can further discuss to understand why is it important or what’s really important to them. Is it the “marriage” or simply just want to be recognized legally by law as a couple. 

 

Furthermore, this also can point out to the religious leaders that their worries and concerns of changing the concept of marriage is redundant. Their thought of the community going for same-sex marriage are wronged and so is their understanding as the rainbow community is just simply want a legally recognition and accepted as a legally couple. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by cityhallguy

[singalion]

On 8/21/2022 at 8:06 AM, cityhallguy said:

Ha. Please read my initial post again. Also what you say does not represent the whole community. 
 

My intention of putting up this topic is to find out “Does the rainbow community here really after same-sex marriage?”
Or the community here is just simply want a same rights as a marriage couple so that in “time”, when needed, the partner can help making decisions.

 

The “time” I referring is making decision such as partner life supports, partner emergency surgery and partner will arrangements, etc. 

 

My initial post included my POV and this allows people here to think. They will have different views and thought and with respect to each individual views, we can further discuss to understand why is it important or what’s really important to them. Is it the “marriage” or simply just want to be recognized legally by law as a couple. 

 

Furthermore, this also can point out to the religious leaders that their worries and concerns of changing the concept of marriage is redundant. Their thought of the community going for same-sex marriage are wronged and so is their understanding as the rainbow community is just simply want a legally recognition and accepted as a legally couple. 

 

Maybe it would be better to ask the religious organisations why there are straight couples who don't procreate?

 

It seems their marriage doesn't focus on having children. 

 

Eventually, that concept of marriage and offspring is just outdated!

 

Actually, I never understood where they got that "thing" that marriage must be something religious? 

 

Prior to the Abrahamic beliefs there was already marriage (without any religious attachment to it). 

 

In those times it had something to do with women rights, but I m very sure women don't intend to go back to these days...

 

This whole reasoning by religious organisations on marriage doesn't seem persuasive to me. 

 

Probably it is instilled by the hypocrite reason that those religions want to gain future followers from the offspring... 

 

 

[And then]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, cityhallguy said:

 

To me, I give my respect to all religions if they have been taught and advocated that marriage is always between a man and a woman. I’m actually fine and no issues with it. So frankly speaking, I’m okay and wouldn’t pursue for same-sex marriage. 

 

So what do the rainbow community think? 

 

What does marriage have to do religion?

OK, if you are looking to getting married in their church( or whatever), maybe they have a say in that.

But if you just want to sign at the registry, what business is it of theirs?

 

Are we happy to be second class citizens?

[doncoin]

The US did not have marriage equality until 2015, and that was only 8 years ago, when SCOTUS stuck it down, making it federally legal for LGBT marriages. What preceded before varies from state to state with Massachusetts legalizing same-sex marriage in 2004, while others provided civil union/partnerships as an alternative. Although generally both marriage and civil unions do more or less provide similar legal provisions, there are differences. 

 

It is not some overnight event that happened with same-sex marriages. It took years of activism to make it happen. Similar to what the PM mentioned about protecting the definition of marriage in the constitution, some states enacted similar moves and challenged same-sex marriages. However, most were eventually overturned. So, with Singapore, I think the marriage definition will protect the institution of marriage and appease the religious and conservative groups. However, with time, as more LGBT seek to formalise their unions, the government will have to provide legal provisions for such unions. 

[fab]

Why should the non believers of those anti homosexual religions need to follow their beliefs or even be subjected to their learning?

 

If these stubborn religious leaders wanna insist, please just use their beliefs to bind their own followers. 

[cityhallguy]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:10 PM, Sizzler said:

Civil union or marriage, what f$%^&&* business is it of the religious groups who I choose to marry?

Yup, couldn’t agree with you more. You may like to ask the religious group leaders about it. So far I read were they just said is against their religions that’s all. 
 

Then again, I guess SG government wouldn’t want to provoke the religious and the conservatives society bah. So that’s why PM put his stance on yesterday speech, repeal 377A but withstand the current definition of marriage. 

[Guest Lonely]

I just want a man who I can go home to. 

To hug to sleep. 

To cry on his shoulder. 

To create memories together. 

To grow old together. 

To support each other. 

To fade away in our own bubble. 

 

Us against the world. 

[singalion]

Just some facts about gay marriage/ same sex marriage:

 

 

 

April 1, 2021

FACTBOX-Same-sex marriage around the world, 20 years after Dutch first

 

During the two decades since the law took effect, thousands of gay and lesbian couples have wed in the Netherlands - representing 1.7% of all marriages, according to the national statistics bureau.

About 750 lesbian couples and 620 gay male couples have married on average annually over the last five years, and there are now some 20,000 married same-sex couples living in the country, official data shows.

Over the past five years, more than 400 same-sex marriages have ended in divorce on average annually - with the divorce rate for lesbian couples almost twice as high as that of gay men.

 

Germany

Germany publishes data on first 5 years of same-sex marriage

Since the introduction of "marriage for all" in Germany, some 65,000 marriages have taken place between people of the same sex. The figures showed a rush to tie the knot once it became possible late in 2017.

 

 

compare this with straight marriages:

 

Marriages, divorces¹, Germany Number

Year	Marriages		Divorces
	Total	per 1,000 residents2	Total	per 1,000 residents2
1: Changed definition of the federal statistics after the First Law on Reforming Marriage and Family Legislation has taken effect on 1 July 1977. 2: Until 2010 results based on former censuses. From 2011 results based on census 2011.
2021	349,075	4.3	142,751	1.7
2020	363,365	4.5	143,801	1.7
2019	402,303	5.0	149,010	1.8
2018	449,466	5.4	148,066	1.8
2017	407,466	4.9	153,501	1.9

The same sex marriages made up 2.74% of all marriages in 2017, 4.8% in 2018, 3.3% in 2019, 2.66% in 2020 and 2.4% in 2021.

 

Note that the numbers show that heterosexual marriages in the years 2010 to 2016 ranged between 373,000 to 400,000 per year.

 

Let us take France:

 

The same sex marriage was introduced in 2013:

2012   2013   2014   2015 2016 2017 2018   All marriages 245.930   238.592   241.292   236.316   232 725    233.900   235.000 Hetero marriages 245.930 231.225 230.770 228.565 225.612 227.000 229.000 Homosexual marriages 0 7 367 10 522 7.751 7.113 7.000 6000 Percentage of same sex marriage 0,00% 3,09% 4,36 % 3.28% 3,06% 2,99% 2,55%          What does this show?     Same sex marriages are marginal.   Why does anyone need to make such a fuss out of same sex marriages.

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by singalion

[Guest Haha]

Any gay couples going to break up now cause your bf is thinking about gay marriage liao? 

 

Haha

[cityhallguy]

On 8/22/2022 at 7:31 PM, Sizzler said:

Civil partnerships are already in place (if you have the means). Nothing to stop you from giving your other half power of attorney or will him your estate. You can even apply for an HDB flat under the joint singles scheme. The only heartache you have is when your other half is foreign and you can't bring him in as a spouse. If you are fortunate enough, your spouse is a citizen of a country that allows gay marriages and he can sponsor you in (like Ivan Heng's example). If not, if you are rich enough, you may want to consider buying permanent residence in other countries where gay marriages are allowed and sponsor him in (in this instance, Singapore loses and the receiving country gains).

 

In short, if you are rich, you can get what you want regardless of what the pompous religious groups / government say. So rather than waste  my energy to convince these "stick in the mud idiots", I'd rather get rich and get out.

Didn’t know that Civil Partnership are in place 🤔. As my understanding still stop at Singapore does not recognize civil partnerships. My concern is more of growing old together and when one party is seriously sick or unable to make treatment decision, the next of kins has to do so. But the next of kins, has to be someone family related and not bf or partner since SG doesn’t recognize civil partnership. 
 

Yah I understand your frustration with the second part so I chose to move out but remain the Sg citizen. I know people might think I’m funny haha… I’m a person who always have plan B, just in case I didn’t do well in foreign country, I still can go back SG and live in a less freedom lifestyle. 

[fab]

On 8/22/2022 at 6:49 PM, cityhallguy said:

Didn’t know that Civil Partnership are in place 🤔. As my understanding still stop at Singapore does not recognize civil partnerships. My concern is more of growing old together and when one party is seriously sick or unable to make treatment decision, the next of kins has to do so. But the next of kins, has to be someone family related and not bf or partner since SG doesn’t recognize civil partnership. 
 

Yah I understand your frustration with the second part so I chose to move out but remain the Sg citizen. I know people might think I’m funny haha… I’m a person who always have plan B, just in case I didn’t do well in foreign country, I still can go back SG and live in a less freedom lifestyle. 

 

 

Do a LPA.

[singalion]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:45 PM, Sizzler said:

There is a wealthy lady in Singapore who appointed a tourist guide from China as her legal guardian and gave him Lasting Power of Attorney.

 

Don't think that was a "civil partnership" what cityhallguy is talking about. 

 

The French have the most far reaching laws when it come to such partnerships...

 

 

[Steve5380]

It doesn't matter if "civil unions" are the only recognized union of people of the same sex,

 

as long as they give exactly the same rights as heterosexual marriages.  And there is no justification to withhold adoptions from homosexuals.  The statistics from progressive countries that legislate equality should be sufficient to make a case for gay adoptions.    There is surely a higher probability of straight men abusing adopted girls, than gay men abusing adopted boys.  And statistics should also show that children adopted by gay partners have an immensely better life than children who languish in orphanages.