All on China & China's Political Discussions (Compiled)

[singalion]

50 minutes ago, Startup said:

The US-China summit in San Francisco as summarized by George Galloway.

 

 

 

 

 

Great that this England's Worker Party Leader, not to confuse with the Labour party doesn't see world politics and China through ideological lenses.

 

The Workers Party of Britain (WPB) is a minor political party in Britain, formed in December 2019 and led by George Galloway. It has never held elected representation at any level of government.

 

How can someone say that the government of China enjoys overwhelming support by the public when the parliament was never elected in free and fair elections.

The video is very amusing when a nobody in politics tries to gain some relevance with a youtube comment.

 

Please be reminded again that critic on the US president and US belongs in the USA thread and not here.

 

 

[singalion]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I don't know much about this George Galloway, but from what I hear him saying I realize that he is a cynical old man who just speaks bullshit.  The fact that he is old does not make him wise. ( not like me, I am old AND wise, ha ha ) 

 

America's government IS NOT a dictatorship,  while China's IS A DICTATORSHIP.  So to refer to Xi as dictator is the correct name.  Period!   And Galloway... f*ck yourself,  you idiot Brit!

 

He is a communist himself. Guess why he had to leave the Labour party from Britain.

 

In 2003, he was expelled from the Labour Party for bringing the party into disrepute over his prominent opposition.

 

 

But Steve, you shouldn't insult the British with such language...

 

At least, he demonstrated once again to the PRC what free press, freedom of speech and democracy stands for! (Something you don't find in the PRC)...

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by singalion

[Startup]

The past 200 years of western domination in world history have been an aberration. All aberrations come to a natural end.

 

 

[Startup]

华为被美国打压的真相

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, Startup said:

The past 200 years of western domination in world history have been an aberration. All aberrations come to a natural end.

 

 

 

The past 200 years? LOL!  You must believe that the world started 200 years ago!  

 

You haven't learned about all the history of humanity before 1823, FULL of aberrations?  Wars everywhere. All the battles the No. 1 Rome fought in its days,  the prior Greek battles, then later the Crusades,  then the 30 year war, etc. etc.

 

And yes, we Americans think that the world is better off with the US being No. 1 instead of China.  We are in perfect peace with our neighbors,  we have not tried to invade other independent islands nearby,  like China wants Taiwan. We are not trying to encroach in international waters.  Instead, the US navy offers protection to international trade by assuring free navigation through these international waters.

[singalion]

3 hours ago, Startup said:

The past 200 years of western domination in world history have been an aberration. All aberrations come to a natural end.

 

 

 

Just for your info:

SMG (Shanghai Eye) is funded in whole or in part by the Chinese government.

 

They would never publish anything critical on China.

 

 

There are other speeches of Kishore that are actually more eye opening that your clip.

 

But recently Kishore is becoming more critical on China also.

 

Quote:

Kishore Mahbubani said that China's biggest mistake was losing the US business community.

 

“China made mistakes in 2022,” says Kishore Mahbubani, a distinguished fellow at the Asia Research Institute of the National University of Singapore. “If you judge China’s performance by what it did in 2022, the prospects look bad, but ... the last 30 years of China’s performance still remain the best in China’s history.”

January 20, 2023

 

The thing I always understand is that Singapore actually uses people like Kishore as a plot to keep friendly tones with China. Kishore is a talk ambassador of Singapore to to keep nice talk on China on diplomatic terms. What I also noted is that he is running the same theory since 20 years on China... A strategy that has been pushed by LKY, just remember how often he sent Goh Chok Tong to China...  when relations were a bit frosty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, singalion said:

 

But Steve, you shouldn't insult the British with such language...

 

At least, he demonstrated once again to the PRC what free press, freedom of speech and democracy stands for! (Something you don't find in the PRC)...

 

 

Bah,  the British are more tame today, but they have much blood on their hands due to their extensive colonization...

 

I recognize that Galloway is free to openly spill his nonsense in his free country,  like Trump is free to spill his abomination in free America.  But the mainland Chinese...  they are not so lucky.

[singalion]

1 hour ago, Startup said:

华为被美国打压的真相

 

 

 

 

That might be a conspiracy theory.

 

Well, if I think on how many Tech companies China permits to operate freely in China, then my take is that China is much more afraid of liberty and technological powers of the West to operate freely within China than the US on Chinese technology... What is the point then?

Isn't it a typical "tit for tat" reaction???

 

The major problem is that nobody can look at the facts, operations within China and taking most recent spy activity by China in the Western countries by heart, people will understand why the West is more concerned and closing avenues for Chinese Tech companies such as Huawei.

 

Surely no Western business owner intends to loose his technological advancement by having a Spy company operated or collobarting with Chinese authorities within their turf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

15 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

The past 200 years? LOL!  You must believe that the world started 200 years ago!  

 

You haven't learned about all the history of humanity before 1823, FULL of aberrations?  Wars everywhere. All the battles the No. 1 Rome fought in its days,  the prior Greek battles, then later the Crusades,  then the 30 year war, etc. etc.

 

And yes, we Americans think that the world is better off with the US being No. 1 instead of China.  We are in perfect peace with our neighbors,  we have not tried to invade other independent islands nearby,  like China wants Taiwan. We are not trying to encroach in international waters.  Instead, the US navy offers protection to international trade by assuring free navigation through these international waters.

 

Steve, I wouldn't judge it down as you do.

 

Kishore is an Asian by heart.

 

If you look at the colonialisation of the British, French, Dutch (and sorts of the colonialisation of the US in Central and South America) then you might understand his point.

There was an unfair hegemony by the Western world, but Kishore is wrong by not reflecting that this period ended in the 1970s , so that the last 50 years are different.

 

This period left scars in Asia.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, singalion said:

 

Steve, I wouldn't judge it down as you do.

 

Kishore is an Asian by heart.

 

If you look at the colonialisation of the British, French, Dutch (and sorts of the colonialisation of the US in Central and South America) then you might understand his point.

There was an unfair hegemony by the Western world, but Kishore is wrong by not reflecting that this period ended in the 1970s , so that the last 50 years are different.

 

This period left scars in Asia.

 

 

Yes, I believe Kishore is an Asian by heart, and so he is biased.  I am not a Westerner by heart, I am cosmopolitan, but I defend the West from unfounded bashing.    And I find it good that Kishore helps keep Singapore in good terms with China, because the Giant Bully could swallow the tiny island in one bite, ha ha.

 

What is all this blabber about evil America wanting to restrict technological advances in China ???  WHY is China not restricting technology advances in America?   China is FREE to do whatever advances it wants BY ITSELF.  No Americans are in China suppressing its technological advances.    Is America restricting the sell of the latest in semiconductor manufacturing tools to China?   SO WHAT ???   Isn't China so IMMENSELY SUPERIOR and able to make their own far ultraviolet imaging on silicon wafers?  And this "technology interchange" is mostly a farce,  since little benefits the West from China technology compared with the benefit China gets... and steals from the West!

 

The West has benefitted for years with cheap copies of western technology made in China.  Because Chinese workers have been exploited by miserable pay. 

[PlayersGroup]

I have great respect for Mr. Kishore Mahbubani. But I would only agree with him only as far as the fact that countries are not going to take sides. Not America, not China. If either tries to force it, well good luck to them and us all.

 

He was in Shanghai, the video was him interviewed in Shanghai, presumably by China media, he's a diplomat, I don't expect him to say anything undiplomatic. 

 

As far as aberrations go, the most prosperous eras of China, India and America are when they are open and cosmopolitan and at the forefront of new knowledge. The aberrations, poverty and decline happens when they are closed-minded, caught up in internal strive, inward-looking and neglect basic human development goals. No one has rose-tinted glasses about China or America, in my mind China isn't better than America and America is not in a good shape itself. It's a lose-lose if they don't work together.

[Sweetie Pie]

12 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, I believe Kishore is an Asian by heart, and so he is biased.  I am not a Westerner by heart, I am cosmopolitan, but I defend the West from unfounded bashing.    And I find it good that Kishore helps keep Singapore in good terms with China, because the Giant Bully could swallow the tiny island in one bite, ha ha.

 

Even if China were to completely engulf this island, the totalitarian rule would still permit you to access this forum.  You are scaring yourself and overanalyzing things without any evidence of the devil's presence. 

[Startup]

6 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

I have great respect for Mr. Kishore Mahbubani. But I would only agree with him only as far as the fact that countries are not going to take sides. Not America, not China. If either tries to force it, well good luck to them and us all.

 

He was in Shanghai, the video was him interviewed in Shanghai, presumably by China media, he's a diplomat, I don't expect him to say anything undiplomatic. 

 

As far as aberrations go, the most prosperous eras of China, India and America are when they are open and cosmopolitan and at the forefront of new knowledge. The aberrations, poverty and decline happens when they are closed-minded, caught up in internal strive, inward-looking and neglect basic human development goals. No one has rose-tinted glasses about China or America, in my mind China isn't better than America and America is not in a good shape itself. It's a lose-lose if they don't work together.

 

It's refreshing to see something that's more objective here. Of course no country is better than another. If China overtakes US in terms of GDP in 2030, that's excellent. If it doesn't, that's also not the end of the world either.

 

But what remains is that US and China are now locked in a battle for supremacy in many areas. It's not a bad thing as long as it doesn't become ugly and turn into a world war with nuclear destruction.

 

What I take issue is the smearing campaigns launched by the US against China and forcing countries to take sides as it has done against Russia thereby exposing it's double standards and ulterior motives.

 

In any case I will continue to share anything by experts who views on based on reality, facts and evidence.

[singalion]

3 hours ago, Startup said:

 

In any case I will continue to share anything by experts who views on based on reality, facts and evidence.

 

That would be wonderful and appreciated, however, 95% of your post s

do not represent facts, reality and contain evidence. 

 

This is the issue. 

 

Your so called "experts" mentions claims or voice opinions, but such are not facts, reality or evidence. 

 

You seem to have issues in separating claims and facts. 

 

 

[singalion]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Startup said:

 

In any case I will continue to share anything by experts who views on based on reality, facts and evidence.

 

8 minutes ago, singalion said:

 

That would be wonderful and appreciated, however, 95% of your post s

do not represent facts, reality and contain evidence. 

 

This is the issue. 

 

Your so called "experts" mentions claims or voice opinions, but such are not facts, reality or evidence. 

 

You seem to have issues in separating claims and facts. 

 

 

 

Just take your post from the "young professor". Her point on US and Huawei is not factual at all, doesn't contain any reality and presents no evidence to support her "theory". 

 

Further, Kishore is voicing his personal opinion, there is nothing factual. It represents just a personal view on the US - China relationship. 

 

 

This is vast evidence that you startup have a serious issue on distinguishing facts, reality and evidence from opinion, view, assumptions and claims. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, Sweetie Pie said:

Even if China were to completely engulf this island, the totalitarian rule would still permit you to access this forum.  You are scaring yourself and overanalyzing things without any evidence of the devil's presence. 

 

I also think that BW would survive.  But...  is there any gay forum in China??  You know of one?

 

About devil's presence, even without any evidence of a devil's absence,  I am sure that devils are human inventions, ha ha.

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, Startup said:

 

What I take issue is the smearing campaigns launched by the US against China and forcing countries to take sides as it has done against Russia thereby exposing it's double standards and ulterior motives.

 

 

You think that Russia is a VICTIM of the smearing campaign by the US?  Maybe Hitler is also a victim of smearing campaign by society?  And where is the evidence that America WANTS to smear China? Myself, an America, don't want to smear China.

.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Steve5380

[Guest Stoopid]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I also think that BW would survive.  But...  is there any gay forum in China??

Yes there are but not suitable for people who can't read nor understand Chinese and save u the trouble of using Google to translate.

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, Guest Stoopid said:

Yes there are but not suitable for people who can't read nor understand Chinese and save u the trouble of using Google to translate.

 

This proves the power and relevance of English.

 

Gays all over the world can read BW because it uses English.  Very few gays over the world can read the Chinese gay forums because...   they use Mandarin!   What a pity.

[Startup]

Excellent speech by Kishore Mahbubani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Startup]

阿根廷的例子，正好说明了政客在外交和竞选的表现还是有别经贸的务实。

 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

3 hours ago, Startup said:

Excellent speech by Kishore Mahbubani.

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Startup said:

What I take issue is the smearing campaigns launched by the US against China and forcing countries to take sides as it has done against Russia thereby exposing it's double standards and ulterior motives.

 

A study of Indian and Chinese history, or even of their impact and influence in Southeast Asia easily support Kishore's views of civilisations, but I take exception to his characterisation that American Western dominance is an aberration. It is a recent development, but not an abberation. It worked because the solutions offered by other civilisations were lacking in appeal.

 

The history of America may be short, but civilizationally the ideas and culture should trace back to that of the Judeo- Christian culture and even further back to ancient Greece, elements of which also influenced Indian culture. The idea of democracy and its evolution is rooted in the west and modern civilization has much to thank for that.

 

I had a far better opinion of China Before their army of social media manipulation accounts masquerading as local Singaporeans started to proliferate to run smear campaigns of Japan and the west. Before their easily-offended cancel-culture netizens came to the fore, Before the China scammers and money-laundering criminals ran amok and cheated hard earned life-savings of Singaporean seniors, Before China confiscated our weaponry in HK. 

 

As long as China works on improving these three main areas and stop their online playbook for online manipulation and cyber efforts, I think ironically more ppl are willing and happy to support the peaceful and prosperous rise of China. 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Sweetie Pie]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

You think that Russia is a VICTIM of the smearing campaign by the US? 

You think Putin cares about the smearing by US?  America did far worse than that to Russia.  NATO came to mind as a group of gangsters led by America to bully other people who are not friend of America. 

[singalion]

7 hours ago, Startup said:

Excellent speech by Kishore Mahbubani.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Easier said, than realistic.

 

Because the Chinese colonial expansion started plenty of years ago.

 

The second last one was actually the annexation of Tibet. The last what is happening in the South China sea.

 

Playersgroup is very right to point to the fact that Kishore is a diplomat and therefore his talks sound nice to China.

He would never go out and openly offend anything about China.

(His protocol rules might not even allow him to do).

 

 

Critics on China more recently judge the economic expansion in  Africa, South America and in parts of Asia as a type of colonial expansion.

 

One of the best examples which I quoted here very often is Sri Lanka. (another may be Eritrea)

 

Take a look what happened with Sri Lanka, then let's discuss of colonial expansion.

 

 

 

China keeps Sri Lanka in debt grip, stalling IMF relief

Failed bailout review raises stakes of Wickremesinghe

October 3, 2023 11:59 JST

 

 

COLOMBO -- Sri Lanka's diplomatic failure to secure a concrete debt relief framework from China, its largest bilateral lender, is blocking access to desperately needed cash under a $3 billion bailout from the International Monetary Fund.

 

But multiple diplomatic sources from Asian and Western missions in Colombo told Nikkei Asia that China's foot-dragging on Sri Lanka's debt was an issue.

 

 

 

=> China blocked a debt restructuring program that had relieved the burden of Sri Lanka with trying to take advantage for its own debts...over other lenders.  The whole behaviour of China seems to me quite "colonial".

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

7 hours ago, Startup said:

阿根廷的例子，正好说明了政客在外交和竞选的表现还是有别经贸的务实。

 

 

 

 

What is the link to the China discussion? Out of topic???

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

 

A study of Indian and Chinese history, or even of their impact and influence in Southeast Asia easily support Kishore's views of civilisations, but I take exception to his characterisation that American Western dominance is an aberration. It is a recent development, but not an abberation. It worked because the solutions offered by other civilisations were lacking in appeal.

 

The history of America may be short, but civilizationally the ideas and culture should trace back to that of the Judeo- Christian culture and even further back to ancient Greece, elements of which also influenced Indian culture. The idea of democracy and its evolution is rooted in the west and modern civilization has much to thank for that.

 

I had a far better opinion of China Before their army of social media manipulation accounts masquerading as local Singaporeans started to proliferate to run smear campaigns of Japan and the west. Before their easily-offended cancel-culture netizens came to the fore, Before the China scammers and money-laundering criminals ran amok and cheated hard earned life-savings of Singaporean seniors, Before China confiscated our weaponry in HK. 

 

As long as China works on improving these three main areas and stop their online playbook for online manipulation and cyber efforts, I think ironically more ppl are willing and happy to support the peaceful and prosperous rise of China. 

 

 

Eventually, ...

 

But why not permit the people of China to express their opinions freely and have free elections to verify whether the support of the CCP is real or fake?

 

China is not only involved in smear campaigns in Singapore but all over the world.

 

Those who think the US was/is a bully, but what about China?

 

Just take a look a the recent respiratory issues in parts of China, does China this time around permit WHO representatives to take a look what is going on?

 

China is just to sensitive and scared that anything could be critical or criticised by (even international organisations)

 

 

Instead of claiming that China goes by the playbook and international order, I don't see the "good examples" so far.

 

Aid programs initiated by China for poorer countries are quite limited. If China intends to be seen as a global power it should assist more instead of just working with loans (and making profits) by what they call aid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

 

 

Why Xi Jinping sounds friendlier to America

A tactical move to boost China’s economic and diplomatic interests

Nov 23rd 2023

 

When invited to sum up the state of China’s relations with America, a close observer in Beijing drops a surprising literary reference, comparing the countries to damned souls sent to Hell in “Huis Clos” (“No Exit”), a play by Jean-Paul Sartre. In the gloomy Frenchman’s masterwork, Hell turns out to be an antique-filled sitting room peopled by unlikeable strangers. These wretches come to realise that they must endure each other’s company, and mutual contempt, for all eternity. The afterlife needs no red-hot pokers to be a torment, gasps one of Sartre’s sinners: “Hell is—other people!” The reference to existential angst by the observer in Beijing is more than startling. It is meant to be encouraging.

 

The case for optimism runs as follows. For two years Sino-American relations were dangerously dysfunctional. To protest, successively, against a visit to Taiwan by the then-speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, and America’s shooting down of a Chinese spy balloon, China suspended high-level contacts for months. Both governments now accept that they are doomed to manage differences responsibly, as the world’s greatest economic and military powers, largest emitters of greenhouse gases and interdependent trading partners. That duty to co-exist is dictated by the judgment of history and by the expectations of other countries—even if leaders in Beijing and Washington have come to believe that their core value systems, and many of their most cherished ambitions, are incompatible.

 

Evidence to support optimism comes from a recent summit between the two countries’ presidents, Xi Jinping and Joe Biden, in an antique-filled mansion near San Francisco. At that meeting Mr Xi notably softened his tone towards America. The party chief has spent years declaring that the East is rising and the West is declining. In March of this year, Mr Xi told a meeting in Beijing that “Western countries led by the United States have contained and suppressed us in an all-round way.” In California he came close to conceding, for the first time, that China is engaged in an economic, technological and geopolitical contest with America, and has an obligation to agree on a set of rules and guardrails that might prevent that competition from veering into disaster. An official Chinese readout talks of the two powers “co-operating in areas of shared interest, and responsibly managing competitive aspects of the relationship”. That may seem arcane, but it is quite a concession. After all, Chinese envoys have spent the past few years declaring it illegitimate and intolerable for America to cast bilateral relations as a competition.

 

That grumbling has long reflected a bleak view of great-power competition. Rather than some sort of gentlemanly sparring, Chinese officials portray America’s intentions as closer to a gladiatorial fight to the death. Behind closed doors, they talk of their country’s right to hit back as it is being choked. They note that in the contest for ideological and geopolitical influence, America has strengthened alliances and partnerships with countries in China’s neighbourhood, from Japan and South Korea to the Philippines and Australia. In the eyes of Chinese officials, Mr Biden is stoking cold-war-style divisions.

 

But it has been a while since state media have bragged about the rising East and declining West. Mr Xi presides over a slowing economy and foreign direct investment flows were negative in the most recent quarter. In that context, Mr Xi has incentives to stabilise ties with rich countries, starting with America. That explains confidence-building moves in California, including China’s resumption of military-to-military communication and its restarting of law-enforcement co-operation to curb the export of chemicals used to make fentanyl, a synthetic opioid that kills so many Americans. As recently as September, China’s foreign ministry blamed those drug deaths on American “incompetence”.

 

Leading Chinese scholars think this is an uncertain kind of stability. America continues to tighten export controls on semiconductors and other technologies, to sail warships and fly military aircraft close to Chinese territory, and to generally treat China as “its primary competitor”, says Wu Xinbo of Fudan University. If China has shifted its foreign-policy posture to improve relations with America, the explanation lies in its financial and diplomatic interests, says Professor Wu. Warmer ties “send positive signals to the markets, which is good for the economy,” he says. Such diplomacy also reassures neighbouring countries important to China, such as Japan or Australia.

 

Imagining a future with Trump

Da Wei of Tsinghua University sees an evolution in his country’s thinking. China was “angry and disappointed” when it realised that the Biden administration was bent on maintaining Donald Trump’s get-tough policies. But Chinese officials came to accept that America was not going to change its fundamental strategy. This sense of realism has led to an “interesting new equilibrium”, observes Professor Da, even if China cannot formally accept America’s framework of a strategic competition with guardrails. “The two sides’ understanding of bilateral relations is much closer than it was two years ago,” he says.

 

Next year’s presidential election in America may test that stability. For those Chinese who see a national interest in constructive bilateral relations, “a Trump victory would be a disaster”, says Professor Da. Others believe Trump-induced chaos would help China prevail in the contest of political systems. Still, great turmoil in America would be disruptive for China: a lose-lose situation. “That kind of victory is not meaningful,” argues Professor Da.

 

With luck, Americans are equally focused on the risks of turmoil in China. The two countries are in competition, and it is high time that Chinese leaders admitted it. But each is too large to wish the other away. Theirs remains the most important bilateral relationship in the world. From that fate, there is no exit.

 

https://www.economist.com/china/2023/11/23/why-xi-jinping-sounds-friendlier-to-america

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, Startup said:

Excellent speech by Kishore Mahbubani.

 

 

On 11/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, Startup said:

On 11/26/2023 at 9:00 PM, PlayersGroup said:

 

A study of Indian and Chinese history, or even of their impact and influence in Southeast Asia easily support Kishore's views of civilisations, but I take exception to his characterisation that American Western dominance is an aberration. It is a recent development, but not an abberation. It worked because the solutions offered by other civilisations were lacking in appeal.

 

The history of America may be short, but civilizationally the ideas and culture should trace back to that of the Judeo- Christian culture and even further back to ancient Greece, elements of which also influenced Indian culture. The idea of democracy and its evolution is rooted in the west and modern civilization has much to thank for that.

 

I had a far better opinion of China Before their army of social media manipulation accounts masquerading as local Singaporeans started to proliferate to run smear campaigns of Japan and the west. Before their easily-offended cancel-culture netizens came to the fore, Before the China scammers and money-laundering criminals ran amok and cheated hard earned life-savings of Singaporean seniors, Before China confiscated our weaponry in HK. 

 

As long as China works on improving these three main areas and stop their online playbook for online manipulation and cyber efforts, I think ironically more ppl are willing and happy to support the peaceful and prosperous rise of China. 

 

 

This Kishore looks like a decent man,  but I don't find any reason to give him "an award".  Award for his blah, blah, blah?  I don't find in it anything relevant, it is a bland diplomatic talk about the virtues of the East and the evils of the West.  It is the opinion of many Asians,  and of himself if we consider that "diplomacy" is the art of lying with nice words.

 

My opinion is different.  In the past 200 years and many more,  the dominance of the West has been clear cut. And it has not been of malevolence any more than there has been malevolence in the East. 

 

Let's start with the positive.  The circumstantial development of modern science has taken place nearly exclusively in the West.  From Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc. on. The resulting development of technology has taken place nearly exclusively in the West. The circumstantial development of an art like music has taken place nearly exclusively in the West. 

 

Let's focus on the politics and military:  the dominance over the world has been favored to the West. It is the West that colonized Asia and other regions,  not Asia and other regions colonizing the West.  WHY have those colonized fallen to the West?  Should one make them purely "victims" of the colonizers,  or should one recognize some superiority by the colonizers?  In any case, the evil of the colonizers did not surpass the natural evil of the human race, also present in the colonized.

 

My conclusion: the West is not more evil than the East,  and the East should feel some gratitude for the material advances made by the West which they enjoy,,, but...  they can think what they want,  it should be their freedom.

.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Steve5380

[Startup]

Every country has state media. It's a matter of whether they are honest about it. In Singapore, we have ST as our state media, yet they pretend they are not.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Startup

[Startup]

I really like how mandarin is spoken here. But of course they are media professionals and students.

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

 

2 hours ago, Startup said:

Every country has state media. It's a matter of whether they are honest about it. In Singapore, we have ST as our state media, yet they pretend they are not.

 

 

 

 

Not sure if it helps posting into BW PRC state media.

 

Surely it isn’t helpful to post Government propaganda into BW.

 

Can you please do checks before posting your state propaganda here.

 

The video is worthless.

On T-House:

 

China state-controlled media” including CGTN, Global Times, Xinhua News and T-House: Many of the most incendiary claims were posted by T-House, which states that its mission is to “expose Western hypocrisy”.

 

 

What to expect from such obvious bias???

 

Is your agenda here to be a spreader of PRC bias???

[singalion]

4 hours ago, Startup said:

I really like how mandarin is spoken here. But of course they are media professionals and students.

 

 

 

 

This is the tenth (10th) time that I post here that SMG is a PRC government owned media. 

 

Shanghai Media Group (SMG), represent one of China's largest state-owned media.

 

What do you expect on objectivity BW readers can take from government propaganda?

 

You are wasting your (and our) time in posting PRC government media channels into BW. 
 

It is not neutral. 
 

I start wondering if you’re one of the online human bots and getting paid from the Chinese government to place this propaganda …

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by singalion

[PlayersGroup]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

...The circumstantial development of modern science has taken place nearly exclusively in the West.  From Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc. on. The resulting development of technology has taken place nearly exclusively in the West...

 

Should one make them purely "victims" of the colonizers,  or should one recognize some superiority by the colonizers...

 

My conclusion: the West is not more evil than the East,  and the East should feel some gratitude for the material advances made by the West which they enjoy

 

Why so West-centric? Not denying the recent scientific developments by the West, but I tend to think the development is one of humanity as a whole. The West was a beneficiary of knowledge and technological advancements developed in the Middle-East, Chinese and Indian civilisations as well.

 

About colonization. I think the white-chauvinism is outdated and kinda regressive? There was a lot of damage and destruction by the colonials and we continue to feel its impact in the modern world at all the hotspots: such as in the Middle East, India-Pakistan, China-HK.

 

Superiority of firepower, coercion and assumed racial Superiority, sure, but is it something to be proud of and say it brought development to the colonized? No thanks. Thailand was never colonized but it enjoyed development With the West. Colonisation is not a requirement for development.

 

It was exploitation n plunder, any development was more incidental by-product in the colonists' interests. The British has reached a level of development to know that they had to retreat from colonialism and grant independence, and some say it was their defeat at one point by Japan that contributed to the wave of independence across Asia. Let's not entertain these ideas or learn the wrong lessons again.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[singalion]

15 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

This Kishore looks like a decent man,  but I don't find any reason to give him "an award".  Award for his blah, blah, blah?  I don't find in it anything relevant, it is a bland diplomatic talk about the virtues of the East and the evils of the West.  It is the opinion of many Asians,  and of himself if we consider that "diplomacy" is the art of lying with nice words.

 

My opinion is different.  In the past 200 years and many more,  the dominance of the West has been clear cut. And it has not been of malevolence any more than there has been malevolence in the East. 

 

Let's start with the positive.  The circumstantial development of modern science has taken place nearly exclusively in the West.  From Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc. on. The resulting development of technology has taken place nearly exclusively in the West. The circumstantial development of an art like music has taken place nearly exclusively in the West. 

 

Let's focus on the politics and military:  the dominance over the world has been favored to the West. It is the West that colonized Asia and other regions,  not Asia and other regions colonizing the West.  WHY have those colonized fallen to the West?  Should one make them purely "victims" of the colonizers,  or should one recognize some superiority by the colonizers?  In any case, the evil of the colonizers did not surpass the natural evil of the human race, also present in the colonized.

 

My conclusion: the West is not more evil than the East,  and the East should feel some gratitude for the material advances made by the West which they enjoy,,, but...  they can think what they want,  it should be their freedom.

.

 

I must agree, playergroup hit some very relevant points commenting on your post.

 

Without the scientific lessons taken from the East and Arab peninsula, some from South Asia, the European countries had not been apt to improve and do their own scientific findings.

 

The point that "modern scientific advances just exclusively came from the West" seem not true at all. This is not correct.  You just need to take gunpowder.

 

What made scientific advancement relevant in the West were in parts, the creation of free universities and research and the separation of politics/ science from religion.

 

I also don't understand why you start becoming this defensive when it comes to colonialisation.

It happened. It wasn't good. It destroyed cultures and societies. It exploited humans, natural resources etc.

 

It created borders of parts that cause conflict until today.

 

Yes, maybe it brought toilet bowls and toilet paper to such countries but in the long run the colonial rule wasn't beneficial to the world and the people living in those regions. the Western powers are still paying tribute to this falsity in governance.

 

There are sufficient historians and other academic from the social sciences who concluded that the advancement of the west was on the back of the colonised countries, as only these contributed to the funds for science and scientific development in the West.

 

Coming back to China. The historic China is one of the good examples of feudal systems, internal struggles, complacency and destruction.

While it advanced to a super power until the 15th century, it totally fell apart the years after... and lost its advantage and lead.

 

 

 

I find your post extremely disturbing. It is disappointing to read.

 

The only thing I would bring into the context here is that our nowadays Western society has learned what liberty, human rights and freedom means for the people under it's rule and the technological innovation that such systems have also brought forward.

 

Singapore, while being quite developed is still a very good example where it lacks on innovation, private investment/ entrepreneurship and creativity, factors that suffered under authoritarian educational systems and which government same as for China for much too long feared the free expression and development of its own people.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by singalion

[Startup]

Business should get out of China while it still can

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/china-capital-flight-western-companies-taiwan/

 

This is an article in Telegraph that is written by someone paid to write anti-China gibberish. In other words, it's part of the larger scheme called western propaganda.

 

If you are someone who is already brain washed, like you grow up reading western news reports, it would make perfect sense to you. 

 

But if you understand China and how things work in China, you would dismiss it as trash churned out by western propaganda.

 

Let's just talk about what capitalism is. The fundamental core of capitalism is making profits. While political considerations are crucial to the decision making process, capitalists seek to maximize profits by weighing the risks and returns. They do not take part in political activities directly except to increase returns to investments.

 

When you understand that, you would then understand that investments going in and out of China is just part of what capitalism is about. There will always be investors who think that they can make money in China and those who think they can make more money outside of China. When some investors pull their funds out of China, other investors will step in to fill the void.

 

This is why the article is trash as it aims to politicize the business environment in China by painting it in a bad light.

 

I read and watched about the separation of China and Taiwan since young. While there has always been tensions, the overall sentiment is coexistence in harmony or 相安无事. The majority of Chinese and Taiwanese people were actually in favour of reunification. Even Tsai declared herself as 中国人before she became a pro independence president of Taiwan.

 

The shit-stirrer is of course the US who on the one hand claims to support one China policy but on the other hand eggs Taiwan on to declare independence.

 

Why would China invade Taiwan? The western media kept drumming up the the prospect of the invasion to paint China as the devil which invades other countries and is an affront to democracy. But so far Taiwan never has had the guts to declare independence. So the invasion would not happen unless the US asks the Taiwanese puppet president to declare independence.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Startup

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Why so West-centric? Not denying the recent scientific developments by the West, but I tend to think the development is one of humanity as a whole. The West was a beneficiary of knowledge and technological advancements developed in the Middle-East, Chinese and Indian civilisations as well.

 

About colonization. I think the white-chauvinism is outdated and kinda regressive? There was a lot of damage and destruction by the colonials and we continue to feel its impact in the modern world at all the hotspots: such as in the Middle East, India-Pakistan, China-HK.

 

Superiority of firepower, coercion and assumed racial Superiority, sure, but is it something to be proud of and say it brought development to the colonized? No thanks. Thailand was never colonized but it enjoyed development With the West. Colonisation is not a requirement for development.

 

It was exploitation n plunder, any development was more incidental by-product in the colonists' interests. The British has reached a level of development to know that they had to retreat from colonialism and grant independence, and some say it was their defeat at one point by Japan that contributed to the wave of independence across Asia. Let's not entertain these ideas or learn the wrong lessons again.

 

 

I agree with you on most points.  My "West-centric" post was mostly in response to the diplomat blabber of Kishore Mahbubani. I respect this man of course, but this does not go so far as not finding his talk "blabber", ha ha.  And so while I found disgusting his attack on the West I was motivated to write my insensitive but mostly factual post.  I apologize if I have affected some sensitivities.

 

I like your posts that have the effect of bringing moderation to the discussion.  Old men, even being more experienced, need moderation too. 

 

I agree that past colonization is not something to be proud about, but it is not a strong condemnation of a society. After all, we humans have COLONIZED the planet earth and enslaved other living creatures to our convenience, and we are still using them for our food.  

 

Colonization may have had as incentive the competition between European countries in their quest for power, and the ever presence of forces of economic profit.  In this respect Asia was not as bad off as America,  where after Columbus the conquistadores killed the resisting natives like animals and those who surrendered were indoctrinated with the Catholic faith in an attempt to make their crimes more morally justifiable.

 

 

[Startup]

Jeffrey Sachs on US cold war against China. Very informative. One of the best thinkers of our time.

 

 

 

[singalion]

3 hours ago, Startup said:

 

I read and watched about the separation of China and Taiwan since young. While there has always been tensions, the overall sentiment is coexistence in harmony or 相安无事. The majority of Chinese and Taiwanese people were actually in favour of reunification. Even Tsai declared herself as 中国人before she became a pro independence president of Taiwan.

 

The shit-stirrer is of course the US who on the one hand claims to support one China policy but on the other hand eggs Taiwan on to declare independence.

 

I can only assume, you have been too much immersed into PRC media and propaganda. 

 

After 88 years Taiwan would be already independent from China if the US had ever pursued what you claim here. 

 

Maybe it doesn't get into your head that the Taiwan issue is something about differing governance systems. The one party communist rule against a more liberal pluralistic democratic system. 

 

The American foreign policy since 1920 has followed the containment of communism and supported liberty, western style democracy. 

 

This is the reason why Taiwan has been an issue over the years. 

 

Also your post totally ignores that the majority of Taiwanese do not intend to live under a one party rule and try to keep their pluralistic democratic system. 

 

It seems that since young you never identified what the true issue about Taiwan is. 

 

 

[singalion]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Colonization may have had as incentive the competition between European countries in their quest for power, and the ever presence of forces of economic profit.  In this respect Asia was not as bad off as America,  where after Columbus the conquistadores killed the resisting natives like animals and those who surrendered were indoctrinated with the Catholic faith in an attempt to make their crimes more morally justifiable.

 

 If you lack specific knowledge of the Central and South American history, then better don't post anything until you took up some lessons on this continent. 

 

The Inca empire was vastly weakened by internal wars, when the Spanish arrived in the 16th century. 

 

My intention is not to play down the Spanish and Portoguese colonialisation of South America, but to set certain historic facts into the proper context. 

 

It is now also scientifically proven that small pox had decimated the Inca populations prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. It weren't the Spanish who brought small pox to South America. 

 

Colombus never set foot on South America. On his third trip he sailed around one island at nowadays Venezuela, but never reached the shores of the South American main continent itself. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

5 hours ago, Startup said:

If you are someone who is already brain washed, like you grow up reading western news reports, it would make perfect sense to you. 

 

But if you understand China and how things work in China, you would dismiss it as trash churned out by western propaganda.

 

It is obvious that you carry a huge amount of Anti Western sentiment ( if not prejudices). 

 

What the cause of this behaviour or reaction is, might be a result of upbringing, an inferiority complex or have psychological reasons. 

 

On the other hand, living in Singapore, where certain Western governance patterns are quite prevalent, your rejection of Western seems inconclusive if not simply hypocrite as you benefit from the Western society structure, political system and lifestyle in Singapore. 

 

If you lived in Mainland China things would be different, but posting from the safe heaven in Singapore seems a bit incongruent. 

 

Further, nothing prevents you from leaving Singapore and to settle in China, take up Chinese citizenship as you propagate here the alleged advantages and superiority of China. 

 

What keeps you in Singapore?

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by singalion

[Startup]

Elon Musk understands China.

 

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, singalion said:

 

 If you lack specific knowledge of the Central and South American history, then better don't post anything until you took up some lessons on this continent. 

 

The Inca empire was vastly weakened by internal wars, when the Spanish arrived in the 16th century. 

 

My intention is not to play down the Spanish and Portoguese colonialisation of South America, but to set certain historic facts into the proper context. 

 

It is now also scientifically proven that small pox had decimated the Inca populations prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. It weren't the Spanish who brought small pox to South America. 

 

Colombus never set foot on South America. On his third trip he sailed around one island at nowadays Venezuela, but never reached the shores of the South American main continent itself. 

 

 

I have specific knowledge of Central and South American history, that's why I post about it.  In any case, I have MORE THAN YOU,  I was born there, ha ha!   And Columbus was the one who lead to the invasion / colonization of the whole Americas.  I visited sights in the south of Argentina where the invaders rounded up the native Indians and slaughtered them there.    So... what was the point of your post?

[Steve5380]

2 minutes ago, Startup said:

Elon Musk understands China.

 

 

 

Ha ha ha...  your guide for world history is now...  Elon Musk?    If he says that China is not out to invade a bunch of countries... the answer is that he does not yet know, unless he has a crystal ball.  The fact is that China already has started an economic invasion in a bunch of underdeveloped and economically handicapped countries around the world...  for which purposes?  Out of the goodness of Chinese hearts?

 

America has not invaded ANY country, even being the superpower it is. 

 

[Startup]

4 hours ago, singalion said:

 

It is obvious that you carry a huge amount of Anti Western sentiment ( if not prejudices). 

 

What the cause of this behaviour or reaction is, might be a result of upbringing, an inferiority complex or have psychological reasons. 

 

On the other hand, living in Singapore, where certain Western governance patterns are quite prevalent, your rejection of Western seems inconclusive if not simply hypocrite as you benefit from the Western society structure, political system and lifestyle in Singapore. 

 

If you lived in Mainland China things would be different, but posting from the safe heaven in Singapore seems a bit incongruent. 

 

Further, nothing prevents you from leaving Singapore and to settle in China, take up Chinese citizenship as you propagate here the alleged advantages and superiority of China. 

 

What keeps you in Singapore?

 

 

It's very rude and disrespectful of you to write something like this. Utterly distasteful.

 

Now most respectful people would agree to disagree and not resort to trading personal remarks or insults when it comes to disagreements or differing views.

 

I do not attempt to rebut your articles cos I have accepted that we have totally different perspectives on world politics. In fact I don't even read most of them.

 

I am unabashedly pro-China. I welcome China's rise. It doesn't mean I am anti-west or anti-Singapore. I am only anti-western propaganda. 

 

I share videos or articles that echo my perspective on US-China relations as well as China's rise. I enjoy doing so.

 

I see no need in engaging in petty fights as you and the other S are so fond of doing.

 

While we are at it, please stop gathering agreement with each other.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Startup

[Startup]

This is very well said. Everyone should watch this.

 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

7 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

America has not invaded ANY country, even being the superpower it is. 

 

Erm. 😅

[singalion]

7 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I have specific knowledge of Central and South American history, that's why I post about it.  In any case, I have MORE THAN YOU,  I was born there, ha ha!   And Columbus was the one who lead to the invasion / colonization of the whole Americas.  I visited sights in the south of Argentina where the invaders rounded up the native Indians and slaughtered them there.    So... what was the point of your post?

 

Sorry no!  It might be correct for Columbus for "Hispaniola" (Island now geographically classified as La Española - Haiti and Dominican Republic) and Cuba which is the Caribbean but not even Central America and surely not for South America, that was Pizarro. Columbus recordedly only sailed along the coast of Central America. He only stepped on land on that "Hispaniola" Island and one Offshore Island outside of Venezuela (now Trinidad), when the ship sailed along the Venezuelan coast on the fourth trip, Columbus was sick and didn't leave the ship. Columbus had no involvement with the South American Incas.

 

The point is simply setting facts right.

 

Your latest post is also not correct, as for the whole of America, Columbus had no involvement with North America.

Columbus only "conquered" the island of Hispaniola and Spain placed a settlement there.

 

 

 

 

Voyages of Christopher Columbus

[singalion]

8 hours ago, Startup said:

Elon Musk understands China.

 

 

 

 

 

there is an easy answer to Elon Musk and his soft attitude on China:

 

Tesla’s China-made EV sales volume fall 10.9% in Sept

Published Sun, Oct 08, 2023

 

US carmaker Tesla sold 74,073 China-made electric vehicles (EVs) in September, a 10.9 per cent decrease from a year earlier, data from the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA) showed on Sunday (Oct 8).

 

Sales of China-made Model 3 and Model Y cars were down 12 per cent from a month earlier.

 

Chinese rival BYD, with its Dynasty and Ocean series of EVs and petrol-electric hybrid models, grew passenger vehicle deliveries by 42.8 per cent to 286,903 last month, from 200,973 in September last year.

 

Tesla, along with its China challengers, is bracing for a revival in consumer sentiment, buoyed by deeper discounts and tax breaks for green vehicles amid signs of the economy stabilising.

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/companies-markets/teslas-china-made-ev-sales-volume-fall-109-sept

 

 

 

[singalion]

8 hours ago, Startup said:

 

It's very rude and disrespectful of you to write something like this. Utterly distasteful.

 

Now most respectful people would agree to disagree and not resort to trading personal remarks or insults when it comes to disagreements or differing views.

 

I do not attempt to rebut your articles cos I have accepted that we have totally different perspectives on world politics. In fact I don't even read most of them.

 

I am unabashedly pro-China. I welcome China's rise. It doesn't mean I am anti-west or anti-Singapore. I am only anti-western propaganda. 

 

I share videos or articles that echo my perspective on US-China relations as well as China's rise. I enjoy doing so.

 

I see no need in engaging in petty fights as you and the other S are so fond of doing.

 

While we are at it, please stop gathering agreement with each other.

 

 

 

But what is the point if you just can resort here to publish PRC state media and plaster BW with such videos from PRC government channels???

 

You complain about Western propaganda but then resort to posting simply PRC propaganda instead.

That suffers a lot of logic.

 

Your post are not just "Anti Western propaganda" but despite your denial are very anti-Western.

 

Your posts here on BW also tend to ignore the aggressive stance and actions of China within the South China sea (and not only there).

I have not seen any post by you that criticises the encroachment of the PRC into other countries territories.

 

This leads to BW readers requiring to assume that your points are neither objective and pure bias.

You sound like one of the pro China influencers that simply parrot the PRC government propaganda (without much independent reflection).

 

Your point is also not very persuasive from the angle that you prefer to live in the safe heaven Singapore.

If you had understood the values of democratic government systems, you should be actually pro Taiwan and seeing Taiwan as a model of governance for the PRC also. It is surprising that a Singaporean would support the antidemocratic,

authoritarian government style of the PRC.

I don't find this very persuasive at all.

 

My intention is not to start any fights with anyone but just to point out inconsistencies in reasoning and put certain conclusions across to BW readers. Eventually, you got that wrong.

 

It is surely permitted to search for reasons why people act/ react in a certain way and what contributed to such a behaviour. That is nothing disgusting, disrespecting or rude.

 

By the way take time to read your own post again to see how hate filled and full of opinionated content it is:

 

17 hours ago, Startup said:

Business should get out of China while it still can

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/28/china-capital-flight-western-companies-taiwan/

 

This is an article in Telegraph that is written by someone paid to write anti-China gibberish. In other words, it's part of the larger scheme called western propaganda.

 

If you are someone who is already brain washed, like you grow up reading western news reports, it would make perfect sense to you. 

 

But if you understand China and how things work in China, you would dismiss it as trash churned out by western propaganda.

 

Let's just talk about what capitalism is. The fundamental core of capitalism is making profits. While political considerations are crucial to the decision making process, capitalists seek to maximize profits by weighing the risks and returns. They do not take part in political activities directly except to increase returns to investments.

 

When you understand that, you would then understand that investments going in and out of China is just part of what capitalism is about. There will always be investors who think that they can make money in China and those who think they can make more money outside of China. When some investors pull their funds out of China, other investors will step in to fill the void.

 

This is why the article is trash as it aims to politicize the business environment in China by painting it in a bad light.

 

I read and watched about the separation of China and Taiwan since young. While there has always been tensions, the overall sentiment is coexistence in harmony or 相安无事. The majority of Chinese and Taiwanese people were actually in favour of reunification. Even Tsai declared herself as 中国人before she became a pro independence president of Taiwan.

 

The shit-stirrer is of course the US who on the one hand claims to support one China policy but on the other hand eggs Taiwan on to declare independence.

 

Why would China invade Taiwan? The western media kept drumming up the the prospect of the invasion to paint China as the devil which invades other countries and is an affront to democracy. But so far Taiwan never has had the guts to declare independence. So the invasion would not happen unless the US asks the Taiwanese puppet president to declare independence.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

9 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Erm. 😅

 

Yes, I should have expressed myself better.  "Invaded" is too general.  I meant that America has not settled in any country it "invaded", making it its property, like a colony.