All on China & China's Political Discussions (Compiled)

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, singalion said:

 

Sorry no!  It might be correct for Columbus for "Hispaniola" (Island now geographically classified as La Española - Haiti and Dominican Republic) and Cuba which is the Caribbean but not even Central America and surely not for South America, that was Pizarro. Columbus recordedly only sailed along the coast of Central America. He only stepped on land on that "Hispaniola" Island and one Offshore Island outside of Venezuela (now Trinidad), when the ship sailed along the Venezuelan coast on the fourth trip, Columbus was sick and didn't leave the ship. Columbus had no involvement with the South American Incas.

 

The point is simply setting facts right.

 

Your latest post is also not correct, as for the whole of America, Columbus had no involvement with North America.

Columbus only "conquered" the island of Hispaniola and Spain placed a settlement there.

 

 

 

 

Voyages of Christopher Columbus

 

Sorry yes, yes yes.  I wrote:  "Columbus was the one WHO LEAD to the colonization of the whole Americas", and this is correct.  Before he ventured to the west,  the European societies didn't know what was lying beyond the Atlantic ocean, and they even speculated that it may be India,  which is why they called those natives "Indians".  After he returned to Spain, they knew that there was new land there, a new continent, and many others then sailed west. 

 

Thank you for the map with nice rainbow colors of Columbus voyages.  So precise, you could have been there.  

[PlayersGroup]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

I meant that America has not settled in any country it "invaded", making it its property, like a colony.   

 

Which is also an inaccurate assertion.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/telling-us-history-through-territories-180971004/#:~:text=The United States still has,and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Which is also an inaccurate assertion.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/telling-us-history-through-territories-180971004/#:~:text=The United States still has,and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

 

LOL!  The writer of this article in the Smithsonian has made big efforts to paint the US as "an empire".  What he was able to come up with is much, much more benign than what empires have been throughout history.

 

Puerto Rico?  There is not much enthusiasm there to become an independent land.  All the push is to become another US state.  People there are too eager to join the American community.  And in its history, it was ceded by Spain to the US after the short Spanish-America war.  No Puerto Rican has any interest in returning to the governance of Spain,  even if Spanish is the language there. 

 

Alaska?  This land was bought from Russia.  Again, there is not much interest of Alaskans to become an independent country, and even less, to be again in the possession of Russia,  ha ha.

 

The Philippines?  They were a Spanish colony when they ceded it to the US after losing the Spanish-America war.  More than a century ago, the US offered independence to this land.  But they were occupied by the Japanese in WWII, and the US liberated them from the Japs. They attained independence in 1946.   Recently,  thanks to the threats by China,  the Philippine called again the US to help them, and this is why some nice new US bases are being recently established there.

 

So I repeat,  the US has not colonized and settled into any country that came in their possession through the usual world conflicts.  It has colonized much more in Singapore with all the McDonalds, Burger King, and other chains that invaded your land, plus its American movies and music.  

 

And more important overall,  it has NOT threatened to invade by force any territory of likewise habitants, who want to remain independent from the US and in pacific terms,  something quite opposite to what China wants to do with Taiwan.

[Startup]

Even scientific research cannot escape the cold war 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03762-4

 

Why is China’s high-quality research footprint becoming more introverted?

Data from the Nature Index suggest China-based authors are increasingly publishing without international colleagues

.

A new cold war’

Political tensions between China and many Western nations are also taking a toll on collaboration. Many Western governments have become more suspicious of Chinese scientists in the past five to six years, with fears that they might be part of attempts to steal technology and cutting-edge research.

 

The US China Initiative, launched under former US president Donald Trump in 2018, led to fraud cases being brought against researchers who failed to disclose ties to China on grant applications, although many of those charges were later dropped. Earlier this year, Canada banned government funding for research collaborations involving scientists with connections to the defence or state-security entities of foreign countries that it deems a risk to Canada’s national security. Germany is developing a similar policy.

 

The heightened suspicion has led to lengthy and complex visa processes, which are starting to discourage some Chinese scientists from visiting Western countries. “I have colleagues who spent six months waiting to get a visa for a conference,” says Shu. “This side effect of these political issues is having a heavy influence on scientific collaboration. The last four to five years have been like a new cold war.”

 

The tense political climate is having a chilling effect on collaboration, says Simon. “Chinese scientists don’t know if they are going to get fingered for doing something nefarious, even when they are not,” he says. “They may decide it’s not worth the risk.”

 

Earlier this year, Simon resigned from his job at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in protest against what he saw as the university’s restrictive policies on Chinese collaborations. He told Times Higher Education (THE) that he had faced undue bureaucracy when organizing research trips to China, had been stopped from taking students to visit the country, and that the university had tried to shut down an informal policy discussion that he had arranged between colleagues and Chinese embassy staff. The university would not comment on personnel matters, but told THE that it had had a “steadfast commitment to maintaining the integrity of research” and “take[s] very seriously legitimate concerns about the need to safeguard US academic research from improper foreign influence”.

 

 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

4 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

And more important overall,  it has NOT threatened to invade by force any territory of likewise habitants, who want to remain independent from the US and in pacific terms,  something quite opposite to what China wants to do with Taiwan.

 

All I'm saying is, it is not accurate to say US has not invaded ANY country, nor is it accurate to say the US doesn't have colonies. The US has bombed Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, sent troops to Iraq (not the gulf War, the one under the pretext of, non-existent, weapons of mass destruction). Whether it found one legitimate reason or another, it has attacked, invaded, seized control of foreign territories and lands in alignment with its own interest. 

 

China, on the other hand, while I'm no fan of its politics, has an unfinished Civil War (meaning internal war) with KMT over Taiwan. I leave open the discussion on the CCP position that disputed areas of South China Sea, India, Tibet and Xinjiang belongs to China, but they are remarkably consistent in their position over a long period of time, on historical time frame poorly understood by US politicians with short memories.

 

Taiwan's KMT, while they were still ruling the Mainland, made similar claims. When they retreated to Taiwan, they continued to maintain they were the legitimate government over the whole of China until the idea fell out of favour. To characterize China's historical claims of sovereignty over boundaries it has long considered part of itself as invasions or threat of invasion, while at the same time characterizing US active and continued troops and bombings of territories half way around the world as not invasions is plain double standards. 

 

I don't disagree with all of the US's interventions. Ukraine being an example. But let's not have double standards with China and US. If China is pigeon-holed as an invader, the US is I'm afraid far more far more so. Unless, in comparison with the British.

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, Startup said:

Even scientific research cannot escape the cold war 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03762-4

 

Why is China’s high-quality research footprint becoming more introverted?

Data from the Nature Index suggest China-based authors are increasingly publishing without international colleagues

.

A new cold war’

Political tensions between China and many Western nations are also taking a toll on collaboration. Many Western governments have become more suspicious of Chinese scientists in the past five to six years, with fears that they might be part of attempts to steal technology and cutting-edge research.

 

The US China Initiative, launched under former US president Donald Trump in 2018, led to fraud cases being brought against researchers who failed to disclose ties to China on grant applications, although many of those charges were later dropped. Earlier this year, Canada banned government funding for research collaborations involving scientists with connections to the defence or state-security entities of foreign countries that it deems a risk to Canada’s national security. Germany is developing a similar policy.

 

The heightened suspicion has led to lengthy and complex visa processes, which are starting to discourage some Chinese scientists from visiting Western countries. “I have colleagues who spent six months waiting to get a visa for a conference,” says Shu. “This side effect of these political issues is having a heavy influence on scientific collaboration. The last four to five years have been like a new cold war.”

 

The tense political climate is having a chilling effect on collaboration, says Simon. “Chinese scientists don’t know if they are going to get fingered for doing something nefarious, even when they are not,” he says. “They may decide it’s not worth the risk.”

 

Earlier this year, Simon resigned from his job at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in protest against what he saw as the university’s restrictive policies on Chinese collaborations. He told Times Higher Education (THE) that he had faced undue bureaucracy when organizing research trips to China, had been stopped from taking students to visit the country, and that the university had tried to shut down an informal policy discussion that he had arranged between colleagues and Chinese embassy staff. The university would not comment on personnel matters, but told THE that it had had a “steadfast commitment to maintaining the integrity of research” and “take[s] very seriously legitimate concerns about the need to safeguard US academic research from improper foreign influence”.

 

 

Yes, this distrust that you call a "cold war" is unfortunate, and detrimental to harmonious team work across country boundaries.  But it is quite understandable and a natural result of the lack of balance between the countries.  China until recently has always lagged in intellectual property protection, which lead to the perception that China "steals" intellectual material from other countries.  But now that it makes an effort to generate its own intellectual material, ...  it wants it protected!  How convenient.

 

For the situation to change,  China needs to create intellectual material that will benefit other nations.  This may take some time.  And in the meantime,  the mutual competition in military power is another obstacle to the free sharing of sensitive technologies.  

 

The growing encroachment of digital technologies, artificial intelligence may give raise to a new form of "arms race" that could become quite ugly.  I feel already comforted that by the time this comes into full effect... I may be gone already, and I may not look down at humanity from above  because it will be a repetition of eternal conflicts among living creatures.  Too boring!

[singalion]

 

17 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, I should have expressed myself better.  "Invaded" is too general.  I meant that America has not settled in any country it "invaded", making it its property, like a colony.   

 

13 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Which is also an inaccurate assertion.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/telling-us-history-through-territories-180971004/#:~:text=The United States still has,and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

 

Steve?

 

After the Spanish-American War, the United States exercised significant control over Cuba, annexed Hawaii, and claimed Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines as territories.

 

 

The article also forgot to mention the US controlled parts of Germany after the WWII.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

5 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

All I'm saying is, it is not accurate to say US has not invaded ANY country, nor is it accurate to say the US doesn't have colonies.

 

Exactly"!

 

You forgot the most important one:

 

Panama!

 

United States invades Panama, Dec. 20, 1989

On this day in 1989, President George H.W. Bush ordered an invasion of Panama.

 

Bush cited four reasons for the invasion: safeguarding the lives of the approximately 35,000 U.S. citizens living in Panama; defending democracy and human rights

 

The operation involved 27,684 U.S. troops and over 300 aircraft. It began with an assault on strategic installations, including the commercial airport in Panama City and a Panamanian Defense Force garrison and airfield at Rio Hato

 

Twenty-three U.S. soldiers were killed and 325 were wounded during the conflict. According to Pentagon figures, the invasion claimed 516 Panamanian lives. However, an internal U.S. Army memo estimated the number at about 1,000.

 

 

Some countries charged that the United States had committed an act of aggression by invading Panama and sought to conceal a new manifestation of its past interventionist policies in Latin America. On Dec. 29, 1989, the U.N. General Assembly voted 75 to 20, with 40 abstentions, to condemn the invasion as “a flagrant violation of international law.”

 

It lasted until 31 Jan 1990.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/20/united-states-invades-panama-1989-1067072

 

 

United States invades Grenada, Oct. 25, 1983

Citing the threat posed to American nationals on the Caribbean nation of Grenada by that nation’s pro-Marxist regime, on this day in 1983 President Ronald Reagan ordered U.S. forces to invade the island and to secure their safety. In little more than a week, Grenada’s government was overthrown.

Code-named Operation Urgent Fury, the invasion was triggered by internal strife within the People’s Revolutionary Government, resulting in the house arrest and—six days before the invasion—the execution of Prime Minister Maurice Bishop, the nation’s pro-Marxist leader.

Some 20 U.S. troops were killed and more than 100 wounded; more than 60 Grenadian and Cuban troops were killed.

Some political observers voiced skepticism over Reagan’s justification of the invasion.

 

The United Nations General Assembly adopted General Assembly Resolution 38/7 on 2 November 1983 by a vote of 108 to 9 which "deeply deplores the armed intervention in Grenada, which constitutes a flagrant violation of international law and of the independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity of that State".

 

 

Steve: Let's keep with facts please. (or do better research if you are unaware of such invasions).

 

 

 

 

 

[singalion]

9 hours ago, Startup said:

Even scientific research cannot escape the cold war 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03762-4

 

Why is China’s high-quality research footprint becoming more introverted?

Data from the Nature Index suggest China-based authors are increasingly publishing without international colleagues

.

A new cold war’

Political tensions between China and many Western nations are also taking a toll on collaboration. Many Western governments have become more suspicious of Chinese scientists in the past five to six years, with fears that they might be part of attempts to steal technology and cutting-edge research.

 

The US China Initiative, launched under former US president Donald Trump in 2018, led to fraud cases being brought against researchers who failed to disclose ties to China on grant applications, although many of those charges were later dropped. Earlier this year, Canada banned government funding for research collaborations involving scientists with connections to the defence or state-security entities of foreign countries that it deems a risk to Canada’s national security. Germany is developing a similar policy.

 

The heightened suspicion has led to lengthy and complex visa processes, which are starting to discourage some Chinese scientists from visiting Western countries. “I have colleagues who spent six months waiting to get a visa for a conference,” says Shu. “This side effect of these political issues is having a heavy influence on scientific collaboration. The last four to five years have been like a new cold war.”

 

The tense political climate is having a chilling effect on collaboration, says Simon. “Chinese scientists don’t know if they are going to get fingered for doing something nefarious, even when they are not,” he says. “They may decide it’s not worth the risk.”

 

Earlier this year, Simon resigned from his job at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in protest against what he saw as the university’s restrictive policies on Chinese collaborations. He told Times Higher Education (THE) that he had faced undue bureaucracy when organizing research trips to China, had been stopped from taking students to visit the country, and that the university had tried to shut down an informal policy discussion that he had arranged between colleagues and Chinese embassy staff. The university would not comment on personnel matters, but told THE that it had had a “steadfast commitment to maintaining the integrity of research” and “take[s] very seriously legitimate concerns about the need to safeguard US academic research from improper foreign influence”.

 

 

 

 

 

You forgot that the article gave reasons for declining exchange by the West with China's research:

 

Pandemic hangover

China’s decline in international collaboration in journals tracked by the Nature Index has been under way for several years, although it was exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic.

“The trend began prior to the pandemic, but you can’t dismiss COVID-19 as having an impact on anything and everything,” says Denis Simon, former executive vice-chancellor of Duke Kunshan University in Suzhou, China.

 

 

China had some of the strictest and longest-lasting travel restrictions in the world, making it more difficult for scientists to meet potential collaborators. That led to policy changes in China that made international collaboration less important to researchers’ careers. For example, many Chinese institutions had required international collaborations for a researcher to be considered for promotion, but this was dropped during the pandemic, says Fei Shu, a consultant on research assessment at the University of Calgary in Canada. “I’m not sure if it will be brought back, but for now it’s not a requirement, so there is less motivation,” he says.

 

The Chinese Scholarship Council, a non-profit organization run by the Chinese Ministry of Education, which pays for many Chinese academics to spend time as visiting scholars abroad, also paused funding during the pandemic, says Shu. It will take time for the number of Chinese scholars visiting the West to recover.

 

And you left out the summary:

 

It is important not to extrapolate an irreversible trend from these data. Relations between China and the West might slowly begin to improve in the future: the China Initiative was discontinued in February, and the United States and China renewed their science and technology cooperation agreement in August, although only for six months. Wagner and Simon both say that their colleagues in China remain keen to work with international peers. A forum on open innovation in China in May, that Simon attended, featured a letter from Chinese President Xi Jinping, stressing the importance of international collaboration.

 

“My sense is that China is still very highly engaged in international science,” says Simon. “Even if the US relationship is in decline, China wants to maintain its relationship with other countries.”

 

 

 

Let's not create bias or one sided reporting by not mentioning relevant parts.

 

Also don't forget that China in fact used scientists (even some from Singapore or at Singapore institutions) to spy on research.

 

A) Remember Dickson?

 

B)

University suspends professor after foreign spy charge

Yojana Sharma  07 August 2017

 

 

The National University of Singapore or NUS has terminated the employment of Professor Huang Jing, identified on 4 August as a spy by Singapore’s Ministry of Home Affairs. The university said in a statement on the same day that Huang had been suspended without pay “with immediate effect”.

 

According to a description on the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy or LKYSPP website, Huang is an expert on Chinese elite politics, China’s development strategy, foreign policy and military, and US-China relations.

Many academics said Huang held pro-Chinese government views.

According to the Home Affairs Ministry statement: "Huang used his senior position in the LKYSPP to deliberately and covertly advance the agenda of a foreign country at Singapore's expense. He did this in collaboration with foreign intelligence agents.”

“This amounts to subversion and foreign interference in Singapore's domestic politics. Huang's continued presence in Singapore, and that of his wife, are therefore undesirable."

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

6 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

China, on the other hand, while I'm no fan of its politics, has an unfinished Civil War (meaning internal war) with KMT over Taiwan. I leave open the discussion on the CCP position that disputed areas of South China Sea, India, Tibet and Xinjiang belongs to China, but they are remarkably consistent in their position over a long period of time, on historical time frame poorly understood by US politicians with short memories.

 

Taiwan's KMT, while they were still ruling the Mainland, made similar claims. When they retreated to Taiwan, they continued to maintain they were the legitimate government over the whole of China until the idea fell out of favour. To characterize China's historical claims of sovereignty over boundaries it has long considered part of itself as invasions or threat of invasion, while at the same time characterizing US active and continued troops and bombings of territories half way around the world as not invasions is plain double standards. 

 

I don't disagree with all of the US's interventions. Ukraine being an example. But let's not have double standards with China and US. If China is pigeon-holed as an invader, the US is I'm afraid far more far more so. Unless, in comparison with the British.

 

Historically this may be true for some islands around Taiwan, which are in conflict with Japan/Korea.

 

But surely China never claimed the Spratly islands for centuries. This is just more recent.

 

The whole 9 dash line only appeared in 1947 for the first time by a Kuomintang officer, but that was when KMT still government China. It never made it to the CCP until the 2009s.

 

Quote:

When the communists won the civil war, Beijing revised the national map, apparently abandoning the claim to the gulf (and the two lines marking the waters) due to its shared “comradeship” with North Vietnam, which was also communist.

Taiwan, where the nationalist government set up an administration following its defeat to the communists, dropped its claims to those historical waters in 2005.

 

Curiously, though, the dashes on the 2009 map (and on current Chinese passports) are located in slightly different places from those on the original 1947 map. In several cases, the new dashes hug the coasts of other Southeast Asian nations more closely, giving China an even more expansive claim to the waterway

 

quote end.

 

 

During the discussions with Vietnam under the UN (about border issues with Vietnam), China published a map in 2009 which showed the complete 9 dash line as Chinese territory.

 

This is when the dispute started.

 

 

The argument of China, that Zheng Ho travelled this area is a bit vague.

Spain could argue that the whole Pacific belongs to Spain as their sailors travelled in the area also.

How about Vasco Da Gama? From Portugal to Papua, all islands around there would belong to Portugal...

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by singalion

[Startup]

看了好想去。

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Startup

[Steve5380]

7 hours ago, singalion said:

 

Steve?

 

The article also forgot to mention the US controlled parts of Germany after the WWII.

 

 

Yes, here I am.  

 

The article probably didn't mention the actions of the US right after WWII because it concentrated only on bashing America.  If you look at what America did after winning WWII,  it was NOT occupying the losing countries, annexing them as colonies and changing their official languages to English,  but...  they it promoted THEIR RECOVERY.   The German "economic miracle" was one result of this,  and today Germans are still grateful for this.  Similarly, the Japanese preserved their independence with the Emperor as their leader, and were also given some stimulus.  And today, the former enemies Japan and European countries are fully allied with the US. 

 

Much of the motivation of the US in its involvement in conflicts has been to promote change of some country's leadership to install a democratic government (for what "democracy" is worth in your opinion).  Other reason for getting involved has been the response to nations asking for help to defend their human rights (for what this means to you).   But I recognize that in many cases it failed miserably,  but this was not for having a deep evil nature.   Even good people fail miserably. 

.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Steve5380

[singalion]

Oh damn, once again this nasty western propaganda... 😂

 

Fears raised after Hong Kong journalist fails to return from China trip

Minnie Chan has reportedly been out of contact since travelling to Xiangshan Forum a month ago

 

Fri 1 Dec 2023

 

 

Friends and colleagues of a Hong Kong journalist have raised concerns after she failed to return from a defence and security forum in Beijing a month ago.

Minnie Chan, a reporter for the South China Morning Post, has not been in contact since she went to the Xiangshan Forum, Japan’s Kyodo News reported on Thursday. Chan filed several stories from the forum, the most recent of which was published on 2 November.

 

 

This about news from China that makes you feel safe and secure....

 

 

 

 

[Startup]

 

 

The comments are worth a read. 

 

'A few years back, the BBC published a map claiming to show concentration camps for Uyghur people in Xinjiang. They even provided specific longitude and latitude coordinates for these supposed locations. Out of curiosity, I checked several of these coordinates on Google Maps and found that the sites were actually schools, factories, markets, and office buildings. I shared these findings on Facebook. Nobody had a reason to dispute them since they could easily verify the locations themselves. Yet, one comment struck me: "BBC has built its reputation over many years."'

 

[Startup]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/hong-kong-reporter-missing-after-china-trip-is-safe-scmp-says

 

Hong Kong Reporter ‘Missing’ After China Trip Is Safe, SCMP Says

Minnie Chan is on personal leave, according to her employer

The publication says it is in contact with her family.

 

Gotcha! People posting anti China news without verifying...

Edited December 2, 2023 by Startup

[Guest Haha]

20 minutes ago, Startup said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/hong-kong-reporter-missing-after-china-trip-is-safe-scmp-says

 

Hong Kong Reporter ‘Missing’ After China Trip Is Safe, SCMP Says

Minnie Chan is on personal leave, according to her employer

The publication says it is in contact with her family.

 

Gotcha! People posting anti China news without verifying...

 

23 minutes ago, Startup said:

 

 

The comments are worth a read. 

 

'A few years back, the BBC published a map claiming to show concentration camps for Uyghur people in Xinjiang. They even provided specific longitude and latitude coordinates for these supposed locations. Out of curiosity, I checked several of these coordinates on Google Maps and found that the sites were actually schools, factories, markets, and office buildings. I shared these findings on Facebook. Nobody had a reason to dispute them since they could easily verify the locations themselves. Yet, one comment struck me: "BBC has built its reputation over many years."'

 

do you want to buy some magic beans? 

[singalion]

2 hours ago, Startup said:

 

 

The comments are worth a read. 

 

'A few years back, the BBC published a map claiming to show concentration camps for Uyghur people in Xinjiang. They even provided specific longitude and latitude coordinates for these supposed locations. Out of curiosity, I checked several of these coordinates on Google Maps and found that the sites were actually schools, factories, markets, and office buildings. I shared these findings on Facebook. Nobody had a reason to dispute them since they could easily verify the locations themselves. Yet, one comment struck me: "BBC has built its reputation over many years."'

 

 

 

ha ha. You really try hard with the dumbest efforts to get some China paid youtubers to make some points...

 

See any of his youtubes, it is all about glorifying China... senseless.

 

 

How China uses influencers to build a propaganda network

On Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, some of China's state media reporters identify as travel bloggers and lifestyle influencers to build a network of social media profiles that parrot the government’s perspective in posts. 

 

The personalities, many of them women, call themselves “travelers,” sharing photos and videos that promote China as an idyllic destination.

 

But that lens may be controlled by CGTN, the Chinese-state-run TV network ...

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2022/0330/How-China-uses-influencers-to-build-a-propaganda-network

 

 

Here is an article with an overview of these China state media paid and controlled influencers:

 

https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/27/china_foreign_inflluencers_aspi/

 

 

Beijing fosters foreign influencers to spread its propaganda

They get access to both China's internet and global platforms, and cash in on both

 

 

refer to the article in this link:

 

Singing from the
CCP’s songsheet
The role of foreign influencers in China’s
propaganda system

 

Policy Brief
Report No. 75/2023

 

First published November 2023.

 

 

https://ad-aspi.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/2023-11/Singing from the song sheet.pdf?VersionId=mdVBVPrFokz_xlEyhQdz0H3ZPmRs76el

 

 

 

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has always viewed contact with foreigners and the outside
world as a double-edged sword, presenting both threats and opportunities. While the CCP and
its nationalist supporters harbour fears of foreigners infiltrating China’s information space and
subtly ‘setting the tempo’ (带节奏) of discussions, the CCP also actively cultivates a rising group of
foreign influencers with millions of fans, which endorses pro-CCP narratives on Chinese and global
social-media platforms.

In the People’s Republic of China (PRC), the information ecosystem is geared towards eliminating
rival narratives and promoting the party’s ‘main melody’ (主旋律)—the party’s term for themes or
narratives that promote its values, policies and ideology.1 Foreign influencers who are amenable to
being ‘guided’ towards voicing that main melody are increasingly considered to be valuable assets.
They’re seen as building the CCP’s legitimacy for audiences at home, as well as supporting propaganda
efforts abroad.

 

 

 

BW readers don't fall trap on this fake videos that are fully CCP paid.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by singalion

[singalion]

2 hours ago, Startup said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-01/hong-kong-reporter-missing-after-china-trip-is-safe-scmp-says

 

Hong Kong Reporter ‘Missing’ After China Trip Is Safe, SCMP Says

Minnie Chan is on personal leave, according to her employer

The publication says it is in contact with her family.

 

Gotcha! People posting anti China news without verifying...

 

 

Chan last posted on X on 20 October. Her personal Facebook page shows photos were posted on 11 November, but the comments beneath it contain a claim from a friend, Andrei Pinkov, that she did not post it. Pinkov, who has been contacted by the Guardian, has posted several comments on her page, asking where she is.

 

The Hong Kong Journalists Association on Friday expressed its concern over the reports. “The Hong Kong Journalists Association is deeply concerned for Minnie’s safety and is requesting more information from the SCMP,” it said, asking Chan’s friends or relatives to contact the association if they had information about her whereabouts or needed assistance.

Chan has worked for the paper for 18 years, according to her LinkedIn profile. She previously worked at the Apple Daily, which was forced to close after a Hong Kong government crackdown, and the Chinese Phoenix Satellite TV station.

The South China Morning Post is owned by the Chinese company Alibaba Holdings.

 

 

=> Nobody has been able to contact her. Even the colleagues are unable to locate her.

Does anyone trust such Chinese controlled media???

 

Sounds very "Peng Shuai " to me.

Tennis star Peng Shuai disappeared after reportedly having accused retired Chinese Vice Premier Zhang Gaoli of sexual assault.

 

 

 

Start up , try harder please...

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by singalion

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, singalion said:

 

 

ha ha. You really try hard with the dumbest efforts to get some China paid youtubers to make some points...

 

See any of his youtubes, it is all about glorifying China... senseless.

 

 

How China uses influencers to build a propaganda network

On Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, some of China's state media reporters identify as travel bloggers and lifestyle influencers to build a network of social media profiles that parrot the government’s perspective in posts. 

 

The personalities, many of them women, call themselves “travelers,” sharing photos and videos that promote China as an idyllic destination.

 

But that lens may be controlled by CGTN, the Chinese-state-run TV network ...

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2022/0330/How-China-uses-influencers-to-build-a-propaganda-network

 

 

Here is an article with an overview of these China state media paid and controlled influencers:

 

https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/27/china_foreign_inflluencers_aspi/

 

 

Beijing fosters foreign influencers to spread its propaganda

They get access to both China's internet and global platforms, and cash in on both

 

 

refer to the article in this link:

 

Singing from the
CCP’s songsheet
The role of foreign influencers in China’s
propaganda system

 

Policy Brief
Report No. 75/2023

 

First published November 2023.

 

 

https://ad-aspi.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/2023-11/Singing from the song sheet.pdf?VersionId=mdVBVPrFokz_xlEyhQdz0H3ZPmRs76el

 

 

 

The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has always viewed contact with foreigners and the outside
world as a double-edged sword, presenting both threats and opportunities. While the CCP and
its nationalist supporters harbour fears of foreigners infiltrating China’s information space and
subtly ‘setting the tempo’ (带节奏) of discussions, the CCP also actively cultivates a rising group of
foreign influencers with millions of fans, which endorses pro-CCP narratives on Chinese and global
social-media platforms.

In the People’s Republic of China (PRC), the information ecosystem is geared towards eliminating
rival narratives and promoting the party’s ‘main melody’ (主旋律)—the party’s term for themes or
narratives that promote its values, policies and ideology.1 Foreign influencers who are amenable to
being ‘guided’ towards voicing that main melody are increasingly considered to be valuable assets.
They’re seen as building the CCP’s legitimacy for audiences at home, as well as supporting propaganda
efforts abroad.

 

 

 

BW readers don't fall trap on this fake videos that are fully CCP paid.

 

 

Could it be that all these attitudes by the CCP leaders is due to them being scared shitless? 

 

Yes, shitless because they are an illegitimate government, clinging to absolute power.  Xi is a "dictator for life".  This is so contrary to the US,  where government members are elected by the people.

[singalion]

 

 

Taiwan presidential election: opposition in chaos as China looms in background

Wed 6 Dec 2023

 

 

Voters are faced with a choice of continuity with the ruling DPP or change, with an opposition that favours closer ties with Beijing

 

 

On the eve of the deadline to formally register as a candidate for Taiwan’s presidential elections in January, the ruling party’s pick for vice-president held a slick and short press conference at a Taipei convention centre. Hsiao Bi-khim, Taiwan’s high-profile diplomatic representative to the US, took few questions from the massive crowd of press. She presented herself as an experienced and pragmatic deputy to presidential candidate Lai Ching-te in a Democratic Progressive party (DPP) administration.

 

An administration run by Lai and Hsiao, she said, would continue to defend Taiwan’s democracy from Beijing’s authoritarian threats of annexation and preserve “the status quo”.

 

 

Across town it was a very different story. At the historic Grand Hyatt hotel, three opposition candidates gathered for a very public last-ditch attempt to form a coalition and end the prospect of a split vote returning the DPP to power. The candidates – two former mayors and a tech tycoon – are united in wanting to see the DPP ousted, but it’s there the shared vision ends. Previous attempts to agree on who might acquiesce to the second spot had already collapsed. But the circus wasn’t over.

 

Instead of engaging in negotiations, the event descended into squabbles; spokespeople arguing with each other in front of the gathered journalists while the candidates themselves lobbed accusations at each other, reading aloud private text messages, and hogging the microphone. In the background a large clock brought in as a prop counted down the hours left before registration closed. Ninety minutes later the farce – which had been livestreamed in entirety – ended when half the group walked out. The colourful tech tycoon, Terry Guo, later dropped out of the race, leaving the Kuomintang’s (KMT) Hou You-yi and Ko Wen-je of the self-founded Taiwan’ People’s party (TPP) to fight over non-DPP votes.

 

 

Taiwan Vice President William Lai, third fom left, the candidate for presidential election of the ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), poses with his vice president candidate Hsiao Bi-kim, third from right

 

 

Taiwanese elections have always been colourful, and often messy. But this year adds another layer with a three-way race, says Australian National University political scientist Wen-ti Sung. Recent polls show the DPP is ahead, but only with around 35% of the vote. The choice for voters boils down to “continuity vs change” across domestic and foreign policy issues, he says, but with two similar “change” candidates.

 

“Splitting the votes isn’t necessary a problem, it’s about how it’s split,” Sung says. “Both Hou and Ko will try to marginalise the other so as to monopolise most of the ‘change’ votes for themselves, and turn this back into a de facto two-way race.”

 

The sovereignty question

 

Taiwan’s presidential election, scheduled for 13 January, may be about determining the governance of 24 million people, but it’s also of crucial importance to the world. Across the Taiwan Strait, the Chinese Communist party claims Taiwan as a province of China, and is preparing to “reunify” it. Beijing has not renounced using force to do so, but prefers a peaceful transition, ideally with the help of a Taiwan government more amenable than the ruling DPP, which it considers to be a party of separatists.

 

China has sanctioned Hsiao twice, and called the DPP’s ticket “independence on top of independence”. Outgoing president Tsai Ing-wen is considered a cautious and moderate figure on the pro Taiwan-sovereignty side of politics, but still her leadership has enraged Beijing. The CCP cut communications with her government when she was elected, launched live-fire military drills when she met US speaker Nancy Pelosi in Taipei and successor Kevin McCarthy in the US, and ratcheted up economic coercion, diplomatic isolation, and cognitive warfare.

 

The opposition parties (like the vast majority of Taiwan’s population) are not in favour of unification with China, but the KMT in particular says peace is more likely to be maintained by having closer ties and dialogue. The KMT’s Hou says a vote for him is a vote for peace over war. The DPP candidate, Lai, who has pledged to continue what Tsai started, has framed the election as a choice between “dictatorship and democracy”. Ko claims to offer a largely undefined “middle ground” between the “overly alert” DPP and the “overly relaxed” KMT.

 

Ko is the disruptor candidate who rode in on his popularity as mayor of the capital, Taipei, appearing to garner support from a youth demographic weary with the only leaders they really knew in the DPP, but who weren’t keen on the KMT. But observers say his political inconsistency and a series of scandals involving less than progressive views has hurt his standing.

 

Brian Hioe, a Taiwanese political commentator, notes that Ko is now proposing Taiwan revisit a controversial trade pact with China which sparked mass protests in 2014. It marks a stunning backflip. Ko was among those rallying at the protests that spawned the Sunflower Movement and a new generation of politics.

 

“Ko’s embrace of pro-sovereignty politics occurred at a moment when it was politically expedient to do so,” Hioe tells the Guardian. “Nine years later, Ko may be acting on what he perceives as a shift in Taiwanese politics, in that the weakness of the KMT has created a space for a more moderate, youth-oriented … party.”

 

Fang-yu Chen, Assistant Professor from the department of political science at Soochow University, says the major parties will soon return to focus on their core issues: the China threat and foreign policy for the DPP, and domestic concerns for the KMT.

 

“Ko has always been more uncontrollable and unpredictable, so I don’t know what he will do. What’s certain now is that TPP has to make sure that it’s in second place, and the attacks between KMT and TPP will increase.”

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/06/taiwan-presidential-election-opposition-in-chaos-as-china-looms-in-background

 

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

Let's see if China's crackdown works.

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-myanmar-cyberscams-online-crackdown-loopholes-3968491

 

I wish they succeed.

[singalion]

... getting worse or?

 

China's Nov consumer prices fall, factory-gate deflation persists

Reuters

December 9, 2023

 

BEIJING, Dec 9 (Reuters) - China's consumer prices extended their decline in November while factory-gate deflation deepened, as persistent weakness in demand casts doubts over the sustainability of the economic recovery.

 

The consumer price index (CPI) dropped 0.5% in November both from a year earlier and compared with October, data from the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) showed on Saturday. In October, the CPI fell 0.2% year-on-year.

 

 

 

Analysts polled by Reuters expected the CPI to fall 0.1% both year-on-year and month-on-month.

 

The producer price index (PPI) fell 3.0% year-on-year against a 2.6% drop in October, marking a 14th straight month of decline. Economists had predicted a 2.8% fall in November.

 

China's economy has grappled with multiple headwinds this year including mounting local government debt, an ailing housing market and tepid demand at home and abroad, with consumers tightening their purse strings amid an elusive economic recovery.

 

 

The numbers add to recent mixed trade data and manufacturing surveys that have kept alive calls for further policy support to shore up growth.

 

Xu Tianchen, senior economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit, said the data would be alarming for policymakers and cited three main factors behind it: falling global energy prices, the fading of the winter travel boom and a chronic supply glut.

 

"Downward pressure will continue to rise in 2024 as developers and local governments continue to deleverage and as global growth is expected to slow," Xu said.

 

Bruce Pang, chief economist at Jones Lang Lasalle, said the weak core CPI reading was a warning about persistently sluggish demand, which should be a policy priority for China if it is to deliver more sustainable and balanced growth.

 

 

China's economy has grappled with multiple headwinds this year, including mounting local government debt, an ailing housing market and tepid demand at home and abroad.

 

Chinese consumers especially have been tightening their purse strings, wary of uncertainties in the elusive economic recovery.

 

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:45 AM, singalion said:

... getting worse or?

 

China's Nov consumer prices fall, factory-gate deflation persists

 

 

Yes, it seems to be getting worse.

 

So sad!  Abandoned factories, thousands of laid-off workers returning to their homes in the country, great uncertainty of being able to make a living in the cities... 

 

I feel especially sorry for the young professionals who studied religiously to now find themselves unemployed and without changes in sight.  The best for them would be to emigrate to other countries that are progressive and have good economies, so they can apply their skills and make contributions to society and themselves.   I was in a similar situation after completing my university studies,  without any demand for my skills.  Fellow engineers were doing any kinds of odd work to make a living.  I did too but took the first opportunity to work in the US and make a good career. 

 

One can recognize a good potential in China with its human resources,  but the country is handicapped by the CCP government.  Germany and Japan did learn their lessons and became pacific industrial nations with strong economies. Why can't China do the same?   A PACIFIC country with ambitions for having  one of the strongest economies, but not becoming the most powerful nation.  Without bullying their neighboring nations and starting an arms race.   

[Guest U Creep]

4 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

One can recognize a good potential in China with its human resources,  but the country is handicapped by the CCP government.  Germany and Japan did learn their lessons and became pacific industrial nations with strong economies. Why can't China do the same? 

Don't you worry about it.  China GDP is still higher than Germany and Japan combined.  In fact, the latter two countries are even worse and their leaders are crying for help for China to open its door.    Please direct all your energy of hate towards your own presidents.

[Guest Haha]

24 minutes ago, Guest U Creep said:

Don't you worry about it.  China GDP is still higher than Germany and Japan combined.  In fact, the latter two countries are even worse and their leaders are crying for help for China to open its door.    Please direct all your energy of hate towards your own presidents.

😂

 

you’d better hope that a country with a population of 1.4 billion people has a higher GDP than two countries with a combined population of 200 million…

maybe you want to check the gdp per capital figures if you think GDP so important?  Oh look, China is around $12k per capita, Japan around $40k and Germany around $50k (google for the exact figures)…

as for crying for help to China… do you have any actual source for that idea?
 

thanks for the comedy 

 

[PlayersGroup]

1 hour ago, Guest U Creep said:

China GDP is still higher than Germany and Japan combined.  In fact, the latter two countries are even worse and their leaders are crying for help for China to open its door.    Please direct all your energy of hate towards your own presidents.

 

I find some China supporters' tendency  to continuously boast about how great China is, and how other countries need to "beg" China or are inferior to China, if not chastising them for being disrespectfulof China... very baffling.

 

China will be a greater country when its supporters exudes enough confidence without having to run down other countries. It's a superiority/inferiority complex. Many Singaporeans were like that in the past, thankfully less so in recent years.

 

[Guest 犯贱冰冰]

48 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

I find some China supporters' tendency  to continuously boast about how great China is, and how other countries need to "beg" China or are inferior to China, if not chastising them for being disrespectfulof China... very baffling.

 

China will be a greater country when its supporters exudes enough confidence without having to run down other countries. It's a superiority/inferiority complex. Many Singaporeans were like that in the past, thankfully less so in recent years.

 

 

中国土地一寸不能少！

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Guest Haha said:

😂

 

thanks for the comedy 

 

 

Hopefully Guest Creep learns something from your post.   

[Steve5380]

1 minute ago, Guest 犯贱冰冰 said:

 

中国土地一寸不能少！

 

If big China cares for one inch of its land, this shows how petty it is.

[Steve5380]

51 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

I find some China supporters' tendency  to continuously boast about how great China is, and how other countries need to "beg" China or are inferior to China, if not chastising them for being disrespectfulof China... very baffling.

 

China will be a greater country when its supporters exudes enough confidence without having to run down other countries. It's a superiority/inferiority complex. Many Singaporeans were like that in the past, thankfully less so in recent years.

 

 

Possibly most of the 1.4 billion Chinese don't think how great their country is today.

[Guest U Creep]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

If big China cares for one inch of its land, this shows how petty it is.

Petty?  Do you want to share your house with rodents?

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Possibly most of the 1.4 billion Chinese don't think how great their country is today.

It ain't happening.  At least not in your lifetime

4 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

I find some China supporters' tendency  to continuously boast about how great China is, and how other countries need to "beg" China or are inferior to China, if not chastising them for being disrespectfulof China... very baffling.

 

Not need to feel baffled.  You better pay more attention on America next presidential election and I guaranteed you will be more baffled than your baffling now.

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, Guest U Creep said:

Petty?  Do you want to share your house with rodents?

It ain't happening.  At least not in your lifetime

Not need to feel baffled.  You better pay more attention on America next presidential election and I guaranteed you will be more baffled than your baffling now.

 

LOL!  "Guest I Creep" is getting more and more... creepy.  

[Guest 脏子姨]

9 hours ago, Guest 犯贱冰冰 said:

 

中国土地一寸不能少！

 

对！

[Guest Haha]

8 hours ago, Guest U Creep said:

Petty?  Do you want to share your house with rodents?

It ain't happening.  At least not in your lifetime

Not need to feel baffled.  You better pay more attention on America next presidential election and I guaranteed you will be more baffled than your baffling now.

hmmm interesting you replied to all the posts except the one pointing out your idiocy when it comes to actual facts. Let me post It here for you again:

 

14 hours ago, Guest Haha said:

😂

 

you’d better hope that a country with a population of 1.4 billion people has a higher GDP than two countries with a combined population of 200 million…

maybe you want to check the gdp per capital figures if you think GDP so important?  Oh look, China is around $12k per capita, Japan around $40k and Germany around $50k (google for the exact figures)…

as for crying for help to China… do you have any actual source for that idea?
 

thanks for the comedy 

 

 

keep on going with your joke factory 

[PlayersGroup]

20 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Possibly most of the 1.4 billion Chinese don't think how great their country is today.

 

Notice I say "some" supporters. I don't have the audacity to presume what 1.4 billion Chinese think or don't think.

 

As a Singaporean ethnic Chinese (not from China), I happen to think China is quite great, just as I have admiration for places around the world with great cultural heritage. It is the behaviour of Some of China's supporters online that belittled the very country they support.

 

20 hours ago, Guest 犯贱冰冰 said:

中国土地一寸不能少！

 

5000年以上的文明大国不需要嘴边整天挂着"’国家主权"、"领土完整" 跟其他人呈口舌之快。冗长的人类历史，国有兴衰，国界自然已经改了无数次。要分的会分，要合的会合。地球就一个，普通人为当权者的意识形态吵架真的很无谓。但求国泰民安，尊重人民意愿，安居乐业就可以了。少一寸口舌比少一寸领土重要。

 

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

5000年以上的文明大国不需要嘴边整天挂着"’国家主权"、"领土完整" 跟其他人呈口舌之快。冗长的人类历史，国有兴衰，国界自然已经改了无数次。要分的会分，要合的会合。地球就一个，普通人为当权者的意识形态吵架真的很无谓。但求国泰民安，尊重人民意愿，安居乐业就可以了。少一寸口舌比少一寸领土重要。

 

 

Should there be anything particularly superior in a civilization of more than 5,000 years?  

 

The Jewish civilization dates back to 3,761 BC,  so today's ending year is 5,784.  So it seems to be older than the Chinese. But what advantage does this give to the Jews?  They have been kicked around for millennia and now that they recently recovered some land,  they are kicking around their neighbors.  

 

I favor a HOMOGENEOUS humanity that cares for the commonalities instead of the differences.  I see no need for a civilization to remain segregated for thousands of years,  something that bought only pain and trouble to the Jews.  Why should it be good for the Chinese?  I am satisfied that so many African Americans live in my country, so many Hispanics, and I have welcoming feelings for all the refugees that are piling up at our southern border.  I like how cosmopolitan Houston is,  same as my native Buenos Aires. I'm happy that my daughter in law brought some Asian blood into the family.  

 

And I don't see it pointless for ORDINARY people in a democracy to quarrel over the ideologies of those in power.   I am an ordinary person, but I feel entitled to discuss the ideologies of the Democrats, the Republicans,  of Biden and especially... of Trump! 

.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Steve5380

[Guest U Creep]

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

5000年以上的文明大国不需要嘴边整天挂着"’国家主权"、"领土完整" 跟其他人呈口舌之快。冗长的人类历史，国有兴衰，国界自然已经改了无数次。要分的会分，要合的会合。地球就一个，普通人为当权者的意识形态吵架真的很无谓。但求国泰民安，尊重人民意愿，安居乐业就可以了。少一寸口舌比少一寸领土重要。

 

When you have been colonised before.  You would want to safeguard your territory like gold. You can forgive your enemy but you should not forget history.  If you don't take what is yours, others will and with certainty.

[PlayersGroup]

20 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

Should there be anything particularly superior in a civilization of more than 5,000 years?  

 

Yes of course. But I don't think in terms of superior, but there is definitely wisdom and value of long civilisational cultures that survives.

 

20 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

I favor a HOMOGENEOUS humanity that cares for the commonalities instead of the differences...

 

And I don't see it pointless for ORDINARY people in a democracy to quarrel over the ideologies of those in power.   I am an ordinary person, but I feel entitled to discuss the ideologies of the Democrats, the Republicans,  of Biden and especially... of Trump! 

.

 

Nothing to disagree on a common regard for humanity. But quarrels over ideological differences and territorial claims, can become the exact impediments to such a humanistic view when it justifies threat of war, aggression and killing of civilians for some "greater purpose" and refusal to respect the peaceful political democratic will of people who no longer wants to stay as "one country". 

 

The people want their freedoms respected, they want to have peace and stability to work, enjoy meaningful lives raise families. The political leaders would rather u believe the "us versus them" "they the enemies, we the good guys"...

 

Freedom to discuss politics, sure why not. To the point ppl harp on keeping "every inch and bit of land" because that's what the power elites have been brainwashing? Stupid.

 

And when pressed on the issue, what is the response? "Don't blame us for wanting to maintain our territorial integrity (basically say no to independence / separatists) it's the fault of the colonial powers that bullied us took our lands in the first place."

Edited December 31, 2023 by PlayersGroup

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Yes of course. But I don't think in terms of superior, but there is definitely wisdom and value of long civilisational cultures that survives.

 

 

You can try to find wisdom and value in the ideologies of the most Orthodox Jews, the Heredi, Dati, Masorti, etc. who are devoted followers of the highly scientific truths meticulously passed on over 3000 years in the Torah!  

 

3 hours ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

Freedom to discuss politics, sure why not. To the point ppl harp on keeping "every inch and bit of land" because that's what the power elites have been brainwashing? Stupid.

 

And when pressed on the issue, what is the response? "Don't blame us for wanting to maintain our territorial integrity (basically say no to independence / separatists) it's the fault of the colonial powers that bullied us took our lands in the first place."

 

Yes, the power of the political language is enormous.  Like the power of four letters "MAGA"  ( Make America Great Again )  by the Greatest of the Greatest,  Donald T. 

.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Steve5380

[PlayersGroup]

12 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

You can try to find wisdom and value in the ideologies of the most Orthodox Jews, the Heredi, Dati, Masorti.

 

Yep we can. And we ought to celebrate and appreciate across perceived boundaries. There is a lot of scientific knowledge from the Chinese, Indians and Arabs too. Not just ancient philosophers, but also contemporary scientists. 

[singalion]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:48 AM, PlayersGroup said:

 

Notice I say "some" supporters. I don't have the audacity to presume what 1.4 billion Chinese think or don't think.

 

As a Singaporean ethnic Chinese (not from China), I happen to think China is quite great, just as I have admiration for places around the world with great cultural heritage. It is the behaviour of Some of China's supporters online that belittled the very country they support.

 

 

5000年以上的文明大国不需要嘴边整天挂着"’国家主权"、"领土完整" 跟其他人呈口舌之快。冗长的人类历史，国有兴衰，国界自然已经改了无数次。要分的会分，要合的会合。地球就一个，普通人为当权者的意识形态吵架真的很无谓。但求国泰民安，尊重人民意愿，安居乐业就可以了。少一寸口舌比少一寸领土重要。

 

 

Didn't China encroach into other countries and conquer those foreign territories in the past? 

 

Maybe some Guests here require a history refresher???

 

[singalion]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:30 PM, Steve5380 said:

 

Possibly most of the 1.4 billion Chinese don't think how great their country is today.

 

The numbers of mainland Chinese leaving the PRC speaks their own language... 

 

Just take the large numbers of PRC people who immigrate to Singapore the past 20 years. 

 

Now compare these numbers with Germans or Japanese who left their country for good (or were willing to give up their nationality). 

 

Some Guests here prefer to post unsupported claims through their clouded lenses...

 

Nice comedy though!

 

 

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, singalion said:

 

Didn't China encroach into other countries and conquer those foreign territories in the past? 

 

 

China's bullying conquests unfortunately go on in multiple fronts.  It is not only with land, territories.   It is also with sea, its claims over the South China Sea, and something I didn't know, with surface WATER, like we see in this video:

 

 

Imagine the poor countries whose important rivers have their tributaries that run through China blocked by countless dams.  Damn!   The bad karma China is earning with this...  may cause the collapse of their ambitious Three Gorges Damn, which seems to be cracking and starting to fail already!  Hopefully this will never happen.

 

 

[Guest China is important]

In WWII, the victor determined who owned what land and even appropriated some from its neighbors. Then, in order to legitimize the stolen land in this case, these "war winners" chose to establish a court and appointed themselves as judges. After that, America was permitted to establish its military base on territory itself and its allies have stolen,  in an effort to instill a cold war mindset and strengthen its influence globally.

 

China believes it to be utter nonsense, and since it is powerful and able to correct the record, it decided to do so. China's efforts to return the world to its pre-World Wars state should be welcomed by all.

 

 

[PlayersGroup]

17 minutes ago, Guest China is important said:

China's efforts to return the world to its pre-World Wars state should be welcomed by all.

 

Not sure about this idea that China seem like an innocent pure angelic victim and the colonial powers as all evil in world history.

 

Anyway, who says China wants to return the world to the Pre-World Wars state? Where did that come from? Return to when? 1930s? Before CCP? ROC? Qing Dynasty? Mongol Empire, Song Dynasty, Tang Dynasty? The strict borders of all these eras were never constant although there is a Chinese civilizational core. The Mongols, the Manchus were not even considered Han Chinese powers. Even Tang Dynasty wasn't wholly Han Chinese but had a lot of Turkic tribes in its empire.

 

In any case, I know political narratives and propaganda tend to be grandiose by nature especially for domestic consumption, but come on, "should be welcomed by all"? Sounds exactly like Make America Great Again (China edition).

[singalion]

1 hour ago, Guest China is important said:

In WWII, the victor determined who owned what land and even appropriated some from its neighbors. Then, in order to legitimize the stolen land in this case, these "war winners" chose to establish a court and appointed themselves as judges. After that, America was permitted to establish its military base on territory itself and its allies have stolen,  in an effort to instill a cold war mindset and strengthen its influence globally.

 

China believes it to be utter nonsense, and since it is powerful and able to correct the record, it decided to do so. China's efforts to return the world to its pre-World Wars state should be welcomed by all.

 

 

 

Your pro China proclamation has one big flaw!

 

China sat on the table with the veto power in the UN from start.

So far China has not made any move to change this world order with any serious proposal!

 

In fact, the contraction to reality in your post is obvious, as the other powers (even while China was not a war winner) was recognised as power.

 

I am not very sure what territory the US has "stolen" after the Second World war. Not sure if this is accurate.

 

The big true winner after the Second World War was actually the Soviet Union. Just take a look what territory Russia stole after the war, then you would gain a bit more accurateness on history.

The later collapse was something of Russia's own making...

 

 

[Steve5380]

17 hours ago, Guest China is important said:

In WWII, the victor determined who owned what land and even appropriated some from its neighbors. Then, in order to legitimize the stolen land in this case, these "war winners" chose to establish a court and appointed themselves as judges. After that, America was permitted to establish its military base on territory itself and its allies have stolen,  in an effort to instill a cold war mindset and strengthen its influence globally.

 

China believes it to be utter nonsense, and since it is powerful and able to correct the record, it decided to do so. China's efforts to return the world to its pre-World Wars state should be welcomed by all.

 

 

 

As usual, reality is different from what you write. 

 

The losers in WWII recovered their original land. Japan didn't lose land (except the land THEY had taken away), same with Italy,  and Germany after the reunification with East Germany has its original land back.   America has not taken away anyone's land through its victories. 

 

"China's efforts to return the world to its pre-World Wars state?   Like @PlayersGroup wrote, this period extends all the way from before WWII to the beginning of humanity!   China recovered the land it lost to Japan,  and then... it continued stealing other's lands, like Tibet, Hong Kong and now its attempt on Taiwan.  It is not trying to "correct any record" but because it is now powerful it became a bully.  And it is even ruining the ecology in the S. China Sea to build its artificial islands,  which start sinking anyway.

 

China has no need for any of this shit.  It is powerful enough to have zero risk of being attacked by anyone.  It could comfortably stay peacefully within its proper limits, respecting the international water borders, and concentrate on solving its internal problems.

[PlayersGroup]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

China recovered the land it lost to Japan,  and then... it continued stealing other's lands, like Tibet, Hong Kong and now its attempt on Taiwan.  It is not trying to "correct any record" but because it is now powerful it became a bully...China has no need for any of this shit...

 

@Steve5380, Hongkong is a part of China and returned to China in 1997. There were back and forth accusations of what the British or China did that went against their joint declaration in the 80s but no there's no stealing there.

 

Taiwan and the mainland is a whole, pending resolution of a now stalemate Civil War. Not stealing either. 

 

Tibet I would tend to agree with u though. I don't think China wants to go back to pre-world war state, but what it wants is perhaps a return to its golden age in the past, a respected and powerful country in this region at least and everything it does now is in alignment with its strategic interests. 

 

Realistically, this is what any country does. As of now, to me China and America are both much the same in this regard.

Edited January 2 by PlayersGroup

[Steve5380]

38 minutes ago, PlayersGroup said:

 

@Steve5380, Hongkong is a part of China and returned to China in 1997. There were back and forth accusations of what the British or China did that went against their joint declaration in the 80s but no there's no stealing there.

 

Taiwan and the mainland is a whole, pending resolution of a now stalemate Civil War. Not stealing either. 

 

Tibet I would tend to agree with u though. I don't think China wants to go back to pre-world war state, but what it wants is perhaps a return to its golden age in the past, a respected and powerful country in this region at least and everything it does now is in alignment with its strategic interests. 

 

Realistically, this is what any country does. As of now, to me China and America are both much the same in this regard.

 

China reneged on the agreement of letting Hong Kong retain some independence.   The way China took it over scared away foreign capitals, to Hong Kong's big loss.

 

There is nothing China and Taiwan have to gain by this "stalemate Civil War".  Except for China if it uses  this old excuse to justify any taking of Taiwan by force.   Do you see a threat by Taiwan of taking mainland China by force ??   Do you see South American countries fighting to prevail one over the others because they all used to jointly belong to Spain?

 

What China is doing today does not make it a RESPECTED country at all.   If its aggressiveness results in a big war,  this will become the opposite of a "golden age" for China.

 

China and America are not the same in this regard.  America is not after any land there,  its presence is justified as a force to keep the waters of the S. Ch. Sea open to international traffic.  

[PlayersGroup]

10 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

China reneged on the agreement of letting Hong Kong retain some independence.   

 

The British, on its part, started democratic reforms in 1992 that was not part of the negotiations in the 80s I believe. China responded. In any case Hongkong went under British colonial rule because they used methods that by today's moral standards would count as shameful exploitation and stir  outright disgust flooding the Chinese with addictive opium, so let's not go there.

 

20 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

Do you see a threat by Taiwan of taking mainland China by force ??   Do you see South American countries fighting to prevail one over the others because they all used to jointly belong to Spain?

 

Taiwan under Kuomintang used to say that a lot to the veterans, "counter offensive to take back the mainland". 

 

If New York ot Texas decided to break away from USA, what would US do?

 

24 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

China and America are not the same in this regard.  America is not after any land there,  its presence is justified as a force to keep the waters of the S. Ch. Sea open to international traffic.  

 

There's always some reason to quote, but it all boils down to alignment with  strategic interests in the end. Same to me in this regard.

 

Do the Americans use bribes or send troops to other countries? Yes. Do the Chinese send troops to other countries? On a lesser scale, but yes, no doubt about that, think Korea, Vietnam and Tibet, let's not kid ourselves that China doesn't invade other countries while America does, however much supporters want to consume propaganda as facts.

Can the Chinese and Americans be a positive force in the world? Yes they can and thankfully for the most part they are and should be. Do they have different interests, sure. Even Xi Jingping and Biden have agreed they can and do work together, who are we to disagree?