Police Reports Lodged Against Singapore Pastor Over Offensive Gay And Lesbian Remarks

[Guest hitex]

as reported on www.fridae.com

News

18 Feb 2010

Police reports lodged against Singapore pastor over offensive gay and lesbian remarks

by Sylvia Tan

Fridae has been told that a total of 85 people including filmmakers Sun Koh and Royston Tan have lodged police reports over the long Chinese New Year weekend about pastor Rony Tan's offensive comments about gay men and lesbians in an online video.

Singapore filmmakers Sun Koh and Royston Tan have lodged police reports about a local pastor’s offensive comments about gay men and lesbians in an online video in which he interviewed an ex-lesbian. (Read more here.)

Singapore filmmakers Royston Tan and Sun Koh (right)

The 80-minute video is hosted by Rony Tan of Lighthouse Evangelism, an independent church with 12,000 members. He had recently come under scrutiny by the Internal Security Department last Monday for comments he made during a church service about Buddhism and Taoism, which many people felt were offensive.

Koh told Fridae in an email that she had made a police report by telephone on Saturday night to flag instances of “gay-bashing that often goes unnoticed.”

“I want to send a message that gays and lesbians in Singapore will no longer stay silent when provoked by religious groups that actively promote disinformation.”

The 32-year-old, who won the Best Director and Best Fiction awards for her short film Dirty Bitch at the inaugural Singapore Short Film Awards last month, says she is hoping for a public apology from pastor Rony Tan and an assurance that he will refrain from spreading falsehoods about gays and lesbians in future. Last week, the pastor apologised to Buddhists and Taoists for denigrating their beliefs.

The video, which is believed to have been uploaded to the church’s website in May last year but was removed from the homepage just one day after the apology was issued, had a new lease of life after it appeared on a blog maintained by Kenneth Tan (no relation to the pastor), a Singaporean working in Shanghai. In the video, the pastor attributed childhood abuse as a cause of homosexuality and linked gay people with paedophiles.

He further linked homosexuality with bestiality saying: ”If you allow [homosexuality], next time people will want to get married to monkeys. And they will want rights. They’ll want to apply for HDB [a colloquial term for government subsided flat]. With a donkey or a monkey or a dog and so on. It’s very pathetic.”

Royston Tan, a well known filmmaker (of 881 and 15: The Movie fame), told Fridae that as of Wednesday a total of 85 people, including Koh and himself, had lodged police reports.

He told Fridae he felt offended by some of the remarks in the video. On Saturday, he posted a comment on his Facebook profile saying that he had made a police report about the pastor’s comments. Some friends followed suit and told him that they too had made similar police reports.

“This is not about revenge or gay rights but basic human respect,” Royston said, adding that he was thoroughly disgusted by the pastor’s reference to gay people wanting to marry animals. “As a religious leader, he has a greater responsibility than lay persons to create understanding and not mock or spread untruths about any groups of people.”

Royston hopes for an apology and assurance from the pastor that he will not denigrate and spread further untruths about gay men and lesbians. Rony, who founded the Lighthouse Evangelism church in 1978, has since apologised for disparaging other religions on his church’s website, and in a private meeting with the leaders of the Buddhist and Taoist communities.

According to Koh, she said she was informed by an officer from Tanglin Police Station that the police has received similar complaints about this incident and are investigating. The police has not responded to Fridae’s email request about the status of the case at the time of this article’s publication.

Lighthouse Evangelism on Thursday acknowledged receipt of Fridae's request for comment but was unable to reply in time.

Members of the community Fridae spoke to over the long Chinese New Year weekend had mixed reactions about having to use the heavy hand of the law between religious groups and other groups including the LGBT community.

Russell Heng, a co-founder of Singapore’s pioneer gay group People Like Us, prefers that the pastor’s offensive views, which are not uncommon among certain churches in Singapore, be “debated and not regarded as a security threat that requires the intervention of a country's security apparatus.”

Kenneth Tan, whose recent blog entry called out the pastor’s mocking and misinformed remarks during the interview with an ex-lesbian and spurred Royston’s decision to make a police report, says this would be a "good opportunity to kick-start a debate in the public square."

“Rony Tan and Lighthouse Evangelism (and many Christians) do not consider the ex-lesbian video offensive. This is something we should challenge – before the public thinks this case is ‘resolved’ and many already think so, or are sick and tired of hearing of the story,” the Shanghai-based Singaporean told Fridae.

“The Sedition Act prohibits speech that promotes ‘feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore’. This will be a good opportunity to test the government just what it means by ‘different classes’. Are sexual minorities considered a ‘class’?”

Under Singapore's Sedition Act and Section 298 of the Penal Code, it is an offence to promote or attempt to promote hatred or ill-will between different religious or racial groups. Sexual orientation and gender identity however are not recognised as protected classes under the law.

A forty-something gay community leader, who wishes to only be identified as Kai En, says this might be an opportunity to establish gays and lesbians to be a class of persons to be protected under the law.

“It also informs the police that we as a community take this seriously.”

This is a view echoed by Royston who says that the time has come for the gay community to stand up for itself and especially with support from straight allies. “To have over 80 people including straight allies make a stand by registering their objection to certain ideas being spread to the authorities is very symbolic. We are no longer passive; we will listen, digest and react,” the 34-year-old told Fridae in a phone interview.

Miak Siew of Free Community Church, a gay-affirmative non-denominational church in Singapore, however warns of a backlash as publicity about the police reports will likely “create a siege mentality in certain quarters of the Christian community.”

“Their reaction is not likely to be ‘let's accept them’, but ‘we are being persecuted!’ This has been observable in Thio Li Ann's and Yvonne Lee's reaction - even though they are actually the oppressors and persecutors, they are very quick to claim that they are the oppressed and the persecuted.” He told Fridae in an email, referring to Thio, a former Nominated Member of Parliament who argued against the repeal of Singapore’s gay sex laws in 2007 and Lee, a law professor who wrote in the media that the law should not be repealed as “homosexuality is offensive to the majority of citizens.”

Siew, who is currently pursuing a master’s degree in divinity at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley California, says LGBT people need to come out to disprove the myths.

“True harmony comes about from mutual understanding and dialogue, not from shutting people up. If people are silenced, it will only drive the talk underground, where it is harder for us to reason with, and to counter. It is only when the talk is public that we can show the falsehoods and misconceptions in what people say.”

Kenneth added: “If the gay community doesn't choose to make its voice heard now, then we should forever hold our peace the next time another pastor comes along and says the same thing.”

Rony Tan and Lighthouse Evangelism can be contacted via lightev@singnet.com.sg.

[handsomechub]

how to post the video up?

Edited February 18, 2010 by handsomechub

[Guest guest]

It's sad that a well known and respected pastor like Rony Tan should speak as such. It's ok that he speaks in his own opinion that gay is wrong etc etc but he should not have linked/mocked gay people with animals. God bless both straight and gay people. He is the Creator of all beings. What Pastor Rony Tan had said did not bring glory to God ( which he should as a pastor at all times consciously ), in fact , his words has become a stumbling block for people of other religions , sexual orientation to have a wrong impression about Christianity and probably their eventual acceptance of Christianity which main essence is full of love and full of grace. In my opinion , Pastor Tan could be treated by his church members as a little god ( as he has the gift of healing ) and pride has eaten him up that he has become self-righteous that makes him start to mock or ridicule others. Jesus being the Son of God humbled Himself to come to the world to sacrifice for all mankind ; He did not criticise other religions to gain followers ; yet his followers multiplied till this generations owing to His compassion, grace, wisdom and power that many came to believe Him. Pastor Rony should look up to the Son of God and be more humble and wise. Hope he will learn.

[Guest Guest]

how to post the video up?

http://www.vimeo.com/9337605

[cock brand]

This guy will probably only apologise if again kena summoned by the ISD for this issue.

Otherwise fat hope.

And his quick apology the last time was because kena questioned by ISD and was afraid kena jailed!

And lose his well paid job for himself and his whole family.

Can someone, one moment speaking loud and clear his "heartfelt idealism" and the next moment totally remorseful for his deeds?

It look so hypocritical.

Look at those video clips and see what great fun he had making fun of other religions, drawing laughters from the audience.

It was showtime no less.

And those 2 interviewees on stage, one claimed to be a former nun and one a monk were just clowns.

Are they really what they claimed to be?

The dialogue were so scripted and whole show look so staged.

In many other forums, lots of people actually believed that this 2 interviewees were fakes!

The ISD should really do a check on that 2 clowns to see if they were coaxed or even paid to go on stage to do the show!

If so, then its cheating big time!

Edited February 18, 2010 by cock brand

[cadlad]

the video can be viewed at the following links

http://www.fridae.com/newsfeatures/2010/02/18/9670.police-reports-lodged-against-singapore-pastor-over-offensive-gay-and-lesbian-remarks

http://vimeo.com/user3141670

http://kennethism.com/

[Guest Guest]

he apologises = salute him for he is a brave man

he did not stand behind what he preaches = HE GOT NO BALLS

[Guest he is a clown]

he is such a clown,speak so loud one day and feel remorseful so soon.. such a shameful idiot..

still dare to stay put as pastor there? pls la...

[Guest bitch]

Lol bitch sia his speech, everything sounds so discriminating.

[Guest crap]

Like that also want to lodge police report? Bo liao.

What charges can they charge him with?

Unlike the earlier episode, speaking out against homosexuality is disturbing racial harmony.

It's not about religion.

[Guest Fighter]

Like that also want to lodge police report? Bo liao.

What charges can they charge him with?

Unlike the earlier episode, speaking out against homosexuality is disturbing racial harmony.

It's not about religion.

As provided by the Sedition Act, Section 3(1)(e), A seditious tendency is a tendency to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore.

As mentioned in the news article above, this is the chance for the government to express its opinion if gays and lesbians can be considered as a class of people, just like buddhists.

You know, if you're not gonna take some action to increase respect or at least acceptance for homosexuals in Singapore, you should just give your support silently and not post uncontructive comments. Without certain individuals like Alex, Stuart and now Royston who kept pushing the envelope for gay people in Singapore, you may not even have a forum like this to post the words "Bo liao".

And how is speaking out against homosexuality disturbing racial harmony? Do you even know the definition of the word "race"?

[cock brand]

You know, if you're not gonna take some action to increase respect or at least acceptance for homosexuals in Singapore, you should just give your support silently and not post uncontructive comments. Without certain individuals like Alex, Stuart and now Royston who kept pushing the envelope for gay people in Singapore, you may not even have a forum like this to post the words "Bo liao".

I agree with you. :thumb:

There are just too many of such irresponsible idiots like "crap" in this community who has nothing intelligent to say and yet refuse to shut up.

Don't expect any support from them, you should only be glad if they don't send in any more rubbish.

[Guest guest]

I think this guy doesn't feel remorse at all. I apologised because he was forced to. Also from they way he behalf...he is more than a ra ra show type like those motivational speakers you see on tv or MLM..hahaha.. He is quite narrow minded and full of himself...etc Sad though to have such person..

[cock brand]

Saw the ST report this morning - the pastor told ST that he is sticking to what he said, so no apology lor.

Just as expected.

He know ISD will not be inviting him over for coffee again over this matter.

He may even garner support from other like-minded people like those from the AWARE saga to strengthen his point of view.

so, not until some very senior gahmen people speak up on this issue, till then there will be no apology.

Very crafty person.

The last time, after coffee with ISD, immediately go over to the temples to apologise.

And appear remorseful and sorry.

Good showsmanship.

When you apologise and say sorry, it means that you admit that you have done wrong.

It means that you had been uttering rubbish.

So, more than 12,000 people had been hearing rubbish all this while!

[oralb]

Urgent Message From Pastor Rony

I have received a number of emails from people who have been saddened and hurt by the testimonies of an ex-monk and an ex-nun. I realized that my presentation and comments were wrong and offensive. So I sincerely apologize for my insensitivity towards the Buddhists and Taoists, and solemnly promise that it will never happen again.

When we have received those emails, we immediately removed the video clips from our website. I urge those who have posted those clips on the YouTube to remove them as well.

After reading the frank views from those emails, I was also prompted to tell my members not only to continue to love souls, but also to respect other beliefs and not to ridicule them in any way, shape or fashion.

Let's put our goal to build a harmonious Singapore a top priority.

This is his apology. you see it was carefully crafted to

- not to mention ISD

- not to mention that his views were wrong,

- that the apology is about racial harmony

[eric6363]

Christianity is a religion that preaches and promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE, especially with lies and wrong information. We now have evidence. Please watch Pastor Rony Tan's video on gays and lesbians in fridae's website.

Pastors like Rony Tan, will put warped and convoluted thoughts into your brain. They come from the Church of the Poison Mind.

To all Christians here - DEBAPTIZE NOW! Here is a strong enough reason for you to realise that your religion does NOT embrace you.

Renounce your Christianity, embrace instead a religion that promotes love, before your mind becomes so poisoned, and you become so full of HATRED that you would forever view the world with a perverted, convoluted and warped mind!

Edited February 20, 2010 by eric6363

[TheVisitors]

I would like to tell Rony Tan straight in the face - " Sorry, Jesus don't Love You anymore !!!!! " :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[eric6363]

Actually, when Pastor Rony Tan dies, he will go to the Gates of Heaven, where God will say to him,

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4nt4U7YGaI&feature=related

Edited February 20, 2010 by eric6363

[camphorwood]

Christianity is a religion that preaches and promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE, especially with lies and wrong information. We now have evidence. Please watch Pastor Rony Tan's video on gays and lesbians in fridae's website.

Christianity, and Pastors like Rony Tan, will put warped and convoluted thoughts into your brain. They come from the Church of the Poison Mind.

To all Christians here - DEBAPTIZE NOW! Here is a strong enough reason for you to realise that your religion does NOT embrace you.

Renounce your Christianity, embrace instead a religion that promotes love, before your mind becomes so poisoned, and you become so full of HATRED that you would forever view the world with a perverted, convoluted and warped mind!

U say Christianity promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE. But aren't u doing the same here!!

The tone you present here resembles Pastor Rony Tan! Rather than presenting a morbid view of Christianity, we should instead be more accomodating. No religion teaches people to hate people.

"your religion does NOT embrace you"

While this is true of some churches, this may not be true of what the Christian bible teaches.

As one Christian writer commented, "Christians should be known by the kind of love, care and concern that characterised the ministry of our Lord." We should understand that Christians may not truly represent what Christianity truly teaches. In this secular age, many do not live out their faith. Some Christians over focus on the wrong issues and overemphasised them to the degree of hatred. As for pastor Rony Tan, while he may be the pastor a mega church, this does not in any way make him an authority on the bible. What he says may not be what is portrayed in the bible.

While Christianity is against the lifestyle of the homosexual community, I don't think they hate those in the homosexual community.

As one Christian writer commented,for those Christians who hate homosexuals and applaud their deaths, their side is not that of Jesus but the side of Satan, and the words of Jesus himself provide a fitting malediction: "It will be more tolerabe for the land of Sodom nd Gomorrah on the day of Judgment than for those people" (See the Gospel of St Luke 10:12).

[TheVisitors]

U say Christianity promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE. But aren't u doing the same here!!

The tone you present here resembles Pastor Rony Tan! Rather than presenting a morbid view of Christianity, we should instead be more accomodating. No religion teaches people to hate people.

"your religion does NOT embrace you"

While this is true of some churches, this may not be true of what the Christian bible teaches.

As one Christian writer commented, "Christians should be known by the kind of love, care and concern that characterised the ministry of our Lord." We should understand that Christians may not truly represent what Christianity truly teaches. In this secular age, many do not live out their faith. Some Christians over focus on the wrong issues and overemphasised them to the degree of hatred. As for pastor Rony Tan, while he may be the pastor a mega church, this does not in any way make him an authority on the bible. What he says may not be what is portrayed in the bible.

While Christianity is against the lifestyle of the homosexual community, I don't think they hate those in the homosexual community.

As one Christian writer commented,for those Christians who hate homosexuals and applaud their deaths, their side is not that of Jesus but the side of Satan, and the words of Jesus himself provide a fitting malediction: "It will be more tolerabe for the land of Sodom nd Gomorrah on the day of Judgment than for those people" (See the Gospel of St Luke 10:12).

Not all Christians are like Silly Rony. Some of them truly practise love, compassion, patience and kindness as what the Bible preaches, because they are the very few who truly understand the real meaning of the Bible and God's grace. (btw I am not a Christian)

They even offer prayers and healings to non Christians because they believe all human beings and creatures are God's creations. Some even subscribe to the possibility of reincarnation.

I have Christian friends who don't condemn me being gay, they love and accept me of who I am, and I even get invited to their gatherings and functions. They don't see the need to convert or condemn anyone.

Believe me, there are true Christians among the whole lot of rotten apples

[Guest independent]

U say Christianity promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE. But aren't u doing the same here!!

The tone you present here resembles Pastor Rony Tan! Rather than presenting a morbid view of Christianity, we should instead be more accomodating. No religion teaches people to hate people.

"your religion does NOT embrace you"

While this is true of some churches, this may not be true of what the Christian bible teaches.

As one Christian writer commented, "Christians should be known by the kind of love, care and concern that characterised the ministry of our Lord." We should understand that Christians may not truly represent what Christianity truly teaches. In this secular age, many do not live out their faith. Some Christians over focus on the wrong issues and overemphasised them to the degree of hatred. As for pastor Rony Tan, while he may be the pastor a mega church, this does not in any way make him an authority on the bible. What he says may not be what is portrayed in the bible.

While Christianity is against the lifestyle of the homosexual community, I don't think they hate those in the homosexual community.

As one Christian writer commented,for those Christians who hate homosexuals and applaud their deaths, their side is not that of Jesus but the side of Satan, and the words of Jesus himself provide a fitting malediction: "It will be more tolerabe for the land of Sodom nd Gomorrah on the day of Judgment than for those people" (See the Gospel of St Luke 10:12).

this reminds me of my ex hsemate who left christianity and change his religion due to the fact that christianity condemn gays to the extreme and he cant take it...where as other religions commented that being gay is sinful but will not condemn gay to the extreme.

The fact that christianity teaches their fellow mates to hate gays and lesbian...It come to my mind that why this idiot pastor commented abt gays and lesbians...Is it bcuz we did them harm to him and his family that he anti us the the extreme and commented that...Is he educated type of pastor or the one without an education...Or he preach from different type of bible which he create himself at home...

Last but not least...i guess he find it fun to create an atmosphere where gays and lesbians and buddishm community hate him,his family and other christian fellows...When war of words and violence starts...this idiot pastor will feel kind of satisfactions..JUst good luck to this idiot..

[Guest love us]

Actually, when Pastor Rony Tan dies, he will go to the Gates of Heaven, where God will say to him,

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4nt4U7YGaI&feature=related

Eric6363...this is so gd...wish for more ppl and PLUS to come forward and stop all the bastard who teaches the wrong things to others.

Thanks for sharing with us,eric...

[TheVisitors]

Hinduism and Buddhism do not condemn homosexuality. Its a way of life we return to sort out issues we accumulated or not resolved . Both religion shows compassion to all beings be it you are straight, bisexual, or gay.

I have shared this in my first thread -past present future-

Even the great thinker Jiddu Krishnamurti, when asked to express his views on homosexuality, he said " its just pure love between two beings, does it matter if they are both men or women? "

The only detrimental effect the anti-gay preaching from Christians, was to make good people doubt their own worth.

I have many gay friends who were born in Christian family. They all wanted to experience real human love from another of the same gender. But they can't be themselves; because if they do they will be condemned in hell, or obstracized by their family members. I can sense their internal conflicts and sufferings.

This is what anti-gay Christianity has done so far.

I do hope that, if one day, when one of these anti-gays encounter a mishap or meets a very life threatening situation, he or she will be saved by a good samaritan, who turns out to be a kind hearted gay,whom they were told to hate and condemn.

[TheVisitors]

We all know the Bible consists of the Old and New Testaments.

The orthodox Jews sticks to the Old testament, because they denied Jesus was the Messiah.

The Christians accepts the bible and accepts Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah.

The gay condemnation can be found in the Old Testament.

But when Jesus entered the picture, he had never uttered a word or a sentence that directly condemned homosexuality.

If you notice, he returned to redress many unsound and illogical teachings the Pharisees were preaching to the masses, who were still pretty primitive and uneducated in their mentality, back in those near primitive days

You can say they were manipulated by the Pharisees.

Jesus came to challenge those Pharisees and free those masses from those God fearing mentality.

He wanted them to understand what is really love compassion and kindness.

His silent acceptance to be crucified, was to demonstrate what was really kindness, forgivness and non-violence .

He was a man who was far far too advanced for his thinking back in those days, whose kindness were misunderstood by many who thought he came for a political motive , which he didn't.

Jesus had never never condemned homosexuality, otherwise he won't have uttered his famous saying "love thy neighbour as thy self"

It was men who twisted the bible, to exploit the vulnerabilies of others for their own ulterior motives.

[cock brand]

This is his apology. you see it was carefully crafted to

- not to mention ISD

- not to mention that his views were wrong,

- that the apology is about racial harmony

How can he tell his flock in writing that he had just been to the ISD, so shameful!

Being questioned by ISD is no walk in the park, he could be held indefinately and locked up without trial!

We all knew because ST reported it and it was mentioned all over the internet.

His flock, unless they are nitwits, should know this fact too and why.

And its also what that actually prompt him to write this email!

"not to mention that his views were wrong" - not true what!

I realized that my presentation and comments were wrong and offensive

WRONG AND OFFENSIVE! - it was not only wrong it was offensive, isn't this obvious?

"that the apology is about racial harmony"

can't find it there.

Let's put our goal to build a harmonious Singapore a top priority.

this can means both racial and religious harmony.

[eric6363]

U say Christianity promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE. But aren't u doing the same here!!

The tone you present here resembles Pastor Rony Tan!

My message does NOT promote HATE and INTOLERANCE of Christians. Do not turn and twist my message, for I have provided concrete evidence of what I wrote.

My message is very clear - Christianity is not the right religion for gays and lesbians. Straight people can do what they want, but Christian gays and lesbians should do some soul-searching. I urge them to turn away from a religion that condemns them, and turn to another religion that accepts them for who they are. I do not think that the straight Christians are going to miss you if you left the church.

I wonder if there were any gays and lesbians in his congregation when he made that sermon about gays and lesbians. Did they just sat through it and accepted everything he said? Did they just SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN?

Edited February 21, 2010 by eric6363

[camphorwood]

Christianity is a religion that preaches and promotes HATE and INTOLERANCE, especially with lies and wrong information. We now have evidence. Please watch Pastor Rony Tan's video on gays and lesbians in fridae's website.

Pastors like Rony Tan, will put warped and convoluted thoughts into your brain. They come from the Church of the Poison Mind.

Pastor Rony Tan does not represent Christianity. One must remember he is not the Official Spokesman for Christianity. While he may pastor a large church, this does not make him any smarter or give him the qualification to say such absurd remarks. He may still speak rubbish, tell lies and give wrong information. It seem a bit simplistic to equate one person's word (no matter how big his church is) with Christianity. I checked the website of Rony Tan and his church. His qualification is not stated. Is he a bible scholar? No! Does he know what he is saying, I have deep reservation. As one BW post commented, which I agree, he is more a motivation speaker than a pastor. It seems he is more into performing miracles than being a trusted bible scholar. He is definitely not the educated type of pastor. He preach from different type of bible which he create himself at home... Maybe!! If one say having a lot of members/ supporters means one is correct(or more correct), r we saying than since there are more heterosexual, homosexual & bisexual are wrong??

Hinduism and Buddhism do not condemn homosexuality. Its a way of life we return to sort out issues we accumulated or not resolved . Both religion shows compassion to all beings be it you are straight, bisexual, or gay.

Besides Hinduism and Buddhism, I think Christianity also shows compassion to all beings be it you are straight, bisexual, or gay. Let us not misrepresent others.

So, what is the stand of Christians on homosexuality? I believe the NCCS can give us a more accurate understanding. 7 years ago, the National Council of Churches of Singapore (NCCS) issued an Official Statement on homosexuality. Some of the points to be hightlighted are:

• we do not condone homosexual practice and we consider homosexual lifestyle as sinful and unacceptable. However, this does not mean that we reject or despise homosexuals (homophobia). We acknowledge that every person is loved by God and we all live under the grace of God. Homosexuals should be regarded and treated no less as persons of worth and dignity.
  

• The Church is called to be a caring community and a sanctuary, always extending ministry to all persons. As sinners ourselves, we are committed to the path of true freedom made possible by the grace of God and found in and through obedience to Jesus Christ. Without minimizing their struggles, the Church offers those beset with homosexual desire the same opportunity to receive God's forgiveness and fulfillment in Jesus Christ and to experience His transforming power. Not accepting homosexual practice and lifestyle must not be confused with homophobia.
  

• Though we deem homosexual lifestyle totally unacceptable on the basis of the Bible and our faith, we believe that unless there are legitimate reasons homosexuals, as individuals, should not be discriminated against in areas such as employment.
  

The membership of the National Council of Churches of Singapore (NCCS) includes the Anglican Diocese of Singapore, Assemblies of God of Singapore, Lutheran Church in Singapore, Methodist Church in Singapore, Presbyterian Church in Singapore, The Salvation Army, Mar Thomas Syrian Church, St Thomas Orthodox Syrian Cathedral, Church of Singapore, Evangelical Free Church, and many other independent churches (including meagachurches such as City Harvest Church, New Creation Church and Faith Community Baptist Church) and Christian organisations. Surprisingly, it seems (if I had read the long list of members correctly) Lighthouse Evangelism is not a member! But, as mentioned earlier, having the number does not mean one is correct. The NCCS is made up of theologians, bible scholars and heads of churches. Other than the numbers, I think they have the qualifications too!

[eric6363]

Thanks camphorwood for your clarification.

Surprisingly, NCCS did not issue any statement to distance Christianity from what Pastor Rony Tan said.

As such, I had to issue a statement to our gay and lesbian Christians to distance themselves from Christianity.

But my stand still remains - I do not go where I am not welcomed. I was an ex-Christian myself, and am a born-again gay.

[Guest notloony]

I agree that Rony does not represent the entire Christian community, but it is in my experience that Christians are less tolerant to gays compared to Catholics.

Still, what is more urgent is for the ISD to REALLY keep an eye on Rony and his congregations. One minute a Religious Slander. the next minute a anti-Gay/Lesbian Slur. What's next? Many argue that his opinion is his own. Very true. We all have our individual opinions. But how many of us are granted that kind of a public platform to propagate them? Many may find him just uttering rubbish, but a lot of weak-minded or less informed individuals may actually lap up his false words, and ignorance and hatred and fear will continue to perpetuate.

A normal man on the street will be held accountable if he sprouts words that rock the political, religious or social stability of our country. Such a high-profile man with his massive legions should be dealt with even more strictly. He's got 2 strikes against him now, I personally think he should NOT be allowed to speak in front of any congregation anymore. God knows what more ignorant falsehood will come out from the mouth that is supposed to spread the love of God.

[Guest God Grace]

Rony Tan bravely told Straits Times that he stood by his words because he claimed that he was with the government and the public belief, cleverly trying to escape ISD by bringing in the govt into the picture. However, he missed the reason why gay protested his speech. We have heard of anti-homo in various quarters of churches in recent years but no one has ever went to the extreme of calling gay animals or forbid us to apply HDB flat. Rony Tan went beyond what was allowed in his speech and deliberately crossed into gay territory to attack at his personal level which prompted the gay community to file police report. On one hand he started of by saying he does not discriminate gay but as he dwell deeper in his speech, the incriminating parts became too unbearable and gone out of hand and the wolf in sheep clothing was fully exposed for all to see. This is no small matters.

[Guest sammy]

Thanks camphorwood for your clarification.

Surprisingly, NCCS did not issue any statement to distance Christianity from what Pastor Rony Tan said.

As such, I had to issue a statement to our gay and lesbian Christians to distance themselves from Christianity.

But my stand still remains - I do not go where I am not welcomed. I was an ex-Christian myself, and am a born-again gay.

i thought born again are part of the christian umbrella?

[castaway]

Wow, just watch few mins of the video :smokin: ... can't understand why such old man, Rony Tan, is still sooo stupid. I really don't care WTF he said ... just all crap to me :yuk: .

Btw, now is already century 21, why do so many people still believe desperately on religious ? I just consider it as part of my culture :thumb:

[eric6363]

i thought born again are part of the christian umbrella?

It is - I was a Christian who tried (for 3 days) to turn straight, then turned back to being a gay, with a vengence. Born-again gay.

[Guest Guest]

Rony Tan bravely told Straits Times that he stood by his words because he claimed that he was with the government and the public belief, cleverly trying to escape ISD by bringing in the govt into the picture. However, he missed the reason why gay protested his speech. We have heard of anti-homo in various quarters of churches in recent years but no one has ever went to the extreme of calling gay animals or forbid us to apply HDB flat. Rony Tan went beyond what was allowed in his speech and deliberately crossed into gay territory to attack at his personal level which prompted the gay community to file police report. On one hand he started of by saying he does not discriminate gay but as he dwell deeper in his speech, the incriminating parts became too unbearable and gone out of hand and the wolf in sheep clothing was fully exposed for all to see. This is no small matters.

that mean the government also support him in talking bad on other religions ????

[TheVisitors]

It is - I was a Christian who tried (for 3 days) to turn straight, then turned back to being a gay, with a vengence. Born-again gay.

Boy Eric, you should consider yourself very lucky that you had a choice just walk out of this religion !!!

I was sent to a well known Christian school here for 10years !!! For 10 freaking fxxking 10yrs I was perpetually tormented by very warped Christian teachers, Christian Principal, fanatics Christian fellow schoolmates !!!

It was hell.

In primary 2, when asked to draw your favourite animal during art lesson, I drew a picture of a black cobra, which sent enough panic to my art teacher, who then asked to see my folks!!! The snake or serpent in the Christian literature represents the devil. In the presence of my Principal and art teacher, my folks just laughed and asked, "oh, snakes ha I see. Er in where we stay (a bunglow with a thick forestry nearby), we see snakes almost everyday, many times in our garden, and sometimes in his room . Er my boy always wanted to keep one as a pet, by er we told him its not a good idea. Haha. bought him a dog but he still likes snakes. Haha"

So I was marked.

Then in Primary four I had a RK teacher (religion knowlegde) who had nothing better to do than to scare 10year old minds with her fearsome concept of the everlasting burning hell !! Some of the kids actually developed nightmares. Her 45mins lessons were equivalent to forcing 10yr olds to watch Final Destination or Shocking Asia.

When you are really sick or have a toothache, she wouldn't even allow you see a doctor, go to the dentist or lay in the sick bed. All she did was to place her hands on your forehead and your temple and then she starts to blare out loud scary prayers(speaking in tongues) asking Jesus to heal all sickness or ailments.

It was like witnessing a real exorcising scene.

When the whole process was over and you still feel sick, you dare not tell her, or else she will be very angry, and then she will perform exorcism part2. Its a never ending story. There are idiots who just don't get it.

That bitch needs to be sent to hell.

In secondary school we were forced to attend chapel lessons 3 times a wk

I tried all kinds of excuses not to attend, by any means. I even prayed to Jesus and asked him to deliever me from his bloody fellows. If he answers my prayers I will be eternally grateful to him, even if it meant returning some favours. :oops:

All attempts were all futile, requests strongly denied. So we did try to make full use of the bloody 1hr20mins.

We took the last bench, play card games, dozed off, or passed around playboy we smuggled in.

Along the way some weak minded ones were converted to fanatic Christians, more fanatic even a school of pirahnas at feeding time.They (merely 14yr old and I bet you they haven't grown all their dick hairs) formed groups and tried to convert everyone they met. So you can predict that I was always at loggerheads with them. They even got my house number, just to make sure I have read my bible.

So Eric, you are very fortunate, for ten years, my formatives years were wasted being confronted and having endless wars with Christian fanatics. I really don't know what I have done in my past lives to deserve this.

Incidentally years ago when Tori Amos appeared in the music scene, I could understand(infact empathize) her war and frustration with the people who thought they knew the religion too well and who decided to judge others when they took the laws into their own hands. She grew up in a fanatic Christian town, and worst , her father was a pastor, and she was called the devil's child.

I used to hate them so much, but now, their moronic brains do provide many comic reliefs for me, besides cartoons, mad magazines, madtv and youtubes. And of course dumb gossip magazines on celebrities.

But along the way there are very genuine ones I have met and I have no issues with these group, whatsoever.

Look at the people, judge not the true core religion.

There is a famous quote from Helena Blavantsky

"When the white light enters a prism, it breaks into 7 different colours.

But men , with their very limited mind, each took one colour, and proudly claimed, that is his religion, that is his true"

It is what seperates we today - beliefs

Which therefore, produced a by -product like our Silly Rony.

Cheer up Eric, life has so much fun than for you to allow it to be spoilt by the Brady Bunch.

Edited February 22, 2010 by TheVistors

[Guest Christianvictim]

Comments from one of the original christian activists church

A Thorny Issue

The recent big blow up about Pastor Rony Tan’s highly-publicised sermon on Buddhism and Taoism, and the most recent attack on his statements on homosexuals is a reminder of the continual scrutiny and the pressure that the Church will face in the coming years. Having watched the video myself, I thought that the reaction from the public was a little excessive. But still nonetheless, we live in a multi-cultural and multi-religious society and the need to be careful and vigilant with our words is vital. I’ve been in touch with Pastor Rony via his personal assistant and Pator Rony has requested for our prayer support, for which we’re more than happy to oblige.

There are a few things we can learn from this painful ordeal. Firstly, in Acts 19, we’ve a record of a riot in the city of Ephesus. The whole city was filled with confusion against Paul and his traveling companions and they had already seized several of Paul’s companions, threatening to injure them. When the riot threatened to get out of hand, the town clerk got up to silence the crowd and look at what he said in verse 37: “For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your goddess.” This is an amazing statement because Paul, in all his preaching, did not attack or belittle any other religion. All he did was preach the everlasting Gospel because the Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. And that’s exactly what we need to be doing: we need to preach the unadulterated Word of God and let the Word transform lives.

There’s of course another side to this as well: When preaching the Gospel, we must not dilute, adulterate or compromise on the potency of the Word; because it’s Truth. And truth spoken in love is a very powerful weapon in God’s Hand. When Paul was in a Roman dungeon, he said something very precious; he said that while he may be in chains, God’s word cannot be chained. And that is the truth. In Acts 4, we find the disciples being hauled in for preaching the Gospel and they were threatened by the religious order of their day to cease preaching. Peter, with unusual boldness said: “Whether it is right to listen to you more than God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Such boldness is contagious and God-breathed. After that, we’ve an account of a prayer meeting the disciples had and as they prayed for boldness to speak the word of God, God answered by shaking the place they were gathered in and the disciples were all filled with uncommon valor. What’s the conclusion then? Let’s be sensitive; let’s be careful; but let’s not compromise on the truth.

Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong

20 Feb 2010

[Guest sg-guy]

This is an amazing statement because Paul, in all his preaching, did not attack or belittle any other religion.

This Pastor Yang is certainly very cunning. In the quotation above it says Paul did not attack or belittle any other religion and is innocent. You can see for yourself, did Pastor Ronny Tan attack or belittle another religion? My answer is YES.

You can see for yourself how crafty these religious leaders are.

[TheVisitors]

While Silly Rony insulted and defamed Buddhism ( along some remarks pertaining to Hinduism) I cannot help to share this bit of information that would slap him hard into his face.

Read any bible, Jesus was mentioned when he was 12. Then 30. But where were the missing 18yrs ?

Jesus lived in India for 18yrs, the birthplace of Buddhism and Hinduism.

He was there studying all the spiritual text he could find, and mastered yoga to the highest level.

Even Buddha acknowledged the coming of Jesus. When Buddha refered to this Bodhisattva - Maitreya, the next coming Buddha who would appear (return) to bring the light when the world will fall into a very prolonged period of darkness and turmoil.

This is equivalent to the Christian's Book of Revelation in the Bible.

Was Rony ( or like many)thorough in his homework ? I doubt so. Even if they heard or knew, they will dismiss the possibility

or censor it to win their grounds against Buddhism.

In fact many Christians you meet would like to put Jesus above Buddha. Or they can tell you they were told by the Bible (where which part?) and their church that Christianity came before Buddhism. Or that Buddha copied every of Jesus' idea to start his own religion .

The Christians are the stupid lazy sort, like passive sponge, desperately absorbing anything the church tells them because they are too lazy to find out things for themselves, so they believe. Believing is so simple, but to find out for yourselves is so hard and tedious. It is like how humans believe in gossips so much, without finding out the facts first.

" ...because you are lazy, you are dull, you are not responsible to account for all your acts and thoughts, you transfer this responsibilty to some guru, someone or anyone, or some idol, making the person/ object, suddenly responsible for washing your own dirty laundries. These are the people who needs their brains to be checked .." JK

The really smart ones who already know the facts too well, won't even want to waste time challenging lazy ignorant small minded ones, who only thinks they know.

The formers are being compassionate, they just don't see the need to embarrass the latter.

Edited February 23, 2010 by TheVistors

[Guest Man Hood]

Please do not forget all the GOD's serveants are human being who have very little wisdom as compare to GOD. So if these human think and behave like GOD, they would make statements which is disastrous because they themselves are already a sinful lot. I am a Christian and I encountered many times church pastors that condemn gays and lesbians. But who care about their statements when they are wrong in their presentation? GOD told everyone to love their neighbours but they choose to love only those that they think they want to love. So why bother? GOD did not turn us away since we are also HIS creation. Jesus has made clear statement like : "for those who want to throw stones at this poor prostitute, think about your wrongdoings first" ( I don't have the bible with me so I just write the meaning of what was written in the bible). So, Jesus who is the son of our almighty GOD loves the minorities. My conclusion is, it is us, the so call human who created all the wars, hates, fights..... NOT from the almighty GOD.

My message does NOT promote HATE and INTOLERANCE of Christians. Do not turn and twist my message, for I have provided concrete evidence of what I wrote.

My message is very clear - Christianity is not the right religion for gays and lesbians. Straight people can do what they want, but Christian gays and lesbians should do some soul-searching. I urge them to turn away from a religion that condemns them, and turn to another religion that accepts them for who they are. I do not think that the straight Christians are going to miss you if you left the church.

I wonder if there were any gays and lesbians in his congregation when he made that sermon about gays and lesbians. Did they just sat through it and accepted everything he said? Did they just SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN?

[cock brand]

Comments from one of the original christian activists church

A Thorny Issue

The recent big blow up about Pastor Rony Tan’s highly-publicised sermon on Buddhism and Taoism, and the most recent attack on his statements on homosexuals is a reminder of the continual scrutiny and the pressure that the Church will face in the coming years. Having watched the video myself, I thought that the reaction from the public was a little excessive. But still nonetheless, we live in a multi-cultural and multi-religious society and the need to be careful and vigilant with our words is vital. I’ve been in touch with Pastor Rony via his personal assistant and Pator Rony has requested for our prayer support, for which we’re more than happy to oblige.

There are a few things we can learn from this painful ordeal. Firstly, in Acts 19, we’ve a record of a riot in the city of Ephesus. The whole city was filled with confusion against Paul and his traveling companions and they had already seized several of Paul’s companions, threatening to injure them. When the riot threatened to get out of hand, the town clerk got up to silence the crowd and look at what he said in verse 37: “For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your goddess.” This is an amazing statement because Paul, in all his preaching, did not attack or belittle any other religion. All he did was preach the everlasting Gospel because the Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. And that’s exactly what we need to be doing: we need to preach the unadulterated Word of God and let the Word transform lives.

There’s of course another side to this as well: When preaching the Gospel, we must not dilute, adulterate or compromise on the potency of the Word; because it’s Truth. And truth spoken in love is a very powerful weapon in God’s Hand. When Paul was in a Roman dungeon, he said something very precious; he said that while he may be in chains, God’s word cannot be chained. And that is the truth. In Acts 4, we find the disciples being hauled in for preaching the Gospel and they were threatened by the religious order of their day to cease preaching. Peter, with unusual boldness said: “Whether it is right to listen to you more than God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” Such boldness is contagious and God-breathed. After that, we’ve an account of a prayer meeting the disciples had and as they prayed for boldness to speak the word of God, God answered by shaking the place they were gathered in and the disciples were all filled with uncommon valor. What’s the conclusion then? Let’s be sensitive; let’s be careful; but let’s not compromise on the truth.

Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong

20 Feb 2010

Did you just say " the reaction from the public was a little excessive"?

Imagine someone told a large crowd of people the "fact" that your mother is a prostitute and having them all laughing at the "fact" and this someone is also expecting everybody in the crowd to spread this "fact" to even more people.

And this is done again and again, week after week.

And now everyone in your neighbourhood, your workplace, all your friends came to know of this "fact".

How do you feel?

Maybe you will just smile and thought its OK, is not true anyway?

But please remember, insulting your mother involved only one person whereas insulting a religion, you are insulting millions of believers!

Be honest and tell us please.

Please do not compare Rony with Paul in any manner.

As you had quoted, Paul stood by what he believed even when chained in a dungeon.

Rony?

Just a visit to the ISD had him quickly going over to the temples to apologise.

Whats he afraid of?

Being arrested

Losing his lucrative job for himself and his family.

Or he finally really realised that all those "fact" he been spreading were untrue and he had been talking rubbish all the while just after one visit to the ISD?

Or his given options were - public apology or jail.

Be honest and tell us please.

Edited February 23, 2010 by cock brand

[Guest notloony]

Comments from one of the original christian activists church

A Thorny Issue

Created by who? My vote goes to Rony

There are a few things we can learn from this painful ordeal.

Painful for who? Surely not Rony.

Paul, in all his preaching, did not attack or belittle any other religion. All he did was preach the everlasting Gospel because the Gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation.

Rony should really take a page off St Paul's book and do the same, because all he did was attack AND belittle PLUS discredit other religions. And we haven't even touched on what he has said about gays and lesbians!

And that’s exactly what we need to be doing: we need to preach the unadulterated Word of God and let the Word transform lives.

Yes, the keyword is PREACH and not MISINTERPRET or DISTORT

There’s of course another side to this as well:

I'm glad you see that in this (and life in general), there is always ANOTHER side to every thing. There is always an alternative. There is no xxxx.

When preaching the Gospel, we must not dilute, adulterate or compromise on the potency of the Word; because it’s Truth. And truth spoken in love is a very powerful weapon in God’s Hand.

I didn't hear any LOVE (and hence by your association TRUTH) in Rony's speech when all he does is to poke fun at, belittle and degrade other religions and gays and lesbians.

What’s the conclusion then? Let’s be sensitive; let’s be careful; but let’s not compromise on the truth.

Christians are not persecuted in a country like Singapore, and they have the freedom to congregate and spread their word. So Christians must not abuse this freedom. You can stay true to your own beliefs WITHOUT putting someone else's beliefs (religious or sexual) down. You can glorify your own religion. But elevating own sense of religious worth by condemning another's is nothing but a defence mechanism that stems from insecurity. Wasn't Jesus condemned during his lifetime too? If the word of God is the truth as claimed, then there is no need to keep looking WITHOUT for "evidence" for support. One needs to just look WITHIN one's heart.

Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong

20 Feb 2010

[eric6363]

TheVisitors, I feel very sorry for your 10 years in that mental institute of a school.

Yes - I also wonder what you did wrong in your previous life to deserve that.

Having said that, if I was in such a place, I would speak in tongue all the time to camouflage the obscene profanity that I would hurl at them,

or I would turn my head 360 degrees and throw up green stuff at them all the time, like in the movie Exorcist.

Have you considered a visit to your old school to do that?

[cock brand]

Comments from one of the original christian activists church

A Thorny Issue

The recent big blow up about Pastor Rony Tan’s highly-publicised sermon on Buddhism and Taoism, and the most recent attack on his statements on homosexuals is a reminder of the continual scrutiny and the pressure that the Church will face in the coming years. Having watched the video myself, I thought that the reaction from the public was a little excessive.

Pastor Yang Tuck Yoong

20 Feb 2010

The writer apparently don't know the meaning of excessive reaction.

I'm quite sure many of you have heard of an author Salman Rushdie.

He wrote a book "Satanic Verses" in 1988 that caused great controversy and angered many people.

A fatwa was issued by some Middle East Supreme leader to have him and his publishers killed.

Rushdie had been living in hiding and under police protection since.

But some of those involved in publishing / translation were less fortunate and suffered violent attacks.

What Rony did in essence is no lesser in magnitude than Rushdie, only Rony chose a different religion to ridicule!

Someone thousands of miles away you don't even know can send an order to have you killed on sight!

Now, this is something nearer to excessive reaction.

[TheVisitors]

TheVisitors, I feel very sorry for your 10 years in that mental institute of a school.

Yes - I also wonder what you did wrong in your previous life to deserve that.

Having said that, if I was in such a place, I would speak in tongue all the time to camouflage the obscene profanity that I would hurl at them,

or I would turn my head 360 degrees and throw up green stuff at them all the time, like in the movie Exorcist.

Have you considered a visit to your old school to do that?

Well Eric, I don't miss the warp people there, but I really miss the ambience of the old school, because its like a landmark and have being there more than 150yrs.Its pretty magical.

I miss the simple childhood days of catching spiders, fishing tadpoles, playing rugby in the field, catching dragonflies, climbing trees, outdoor campfires in the open field under the stars,the old chapel, the old teakwood benches, the old English upright piano I was forced to play hymns. But not the fanatic Christians.

If I was that piano, I will be cursing and swearing that I was made to play only bloody hymns, and listening to the fanatics singing.

They have extended and upgraded the whole place. The river is still there. The trees I used to climb are still there !!

Its absolutely scenic and breathtaking. The whole facelift spared nature.

Yes I will go back one day. There is this nostalgic longing to go back.A slow memory lane walk. Its like how Karen Blixien wished she would return to Africa one day.

But because of those fanatics whom I will see if we all opt to enter our affliated JC, I decided 10yrs with them was more than any hell could bare. Enough was enough so I opted alternatives.

I was known as the rebellious kid the devil's child. If I continued another 2 more years of sojourn with them, I will end up being a loony bean. I will end up mad or insane in some mental ward

It was a good choice. Away from the fanatics I found true friendship with 2 teachers and 3 friends there, which lasted till today.One of the teacher taught me the mysteries and wonders of life, who questions the existence of life and God etc.

Sometimes I think choices we made, which end up meeting some people , are fated.

When i was three and saw the cross the very first time, I was very uncomfortable and became hysterical. No one knew why,but I knew something was wrong.

I have my own suspicion, till 4 psychic I met,all told me, that in my many past lives, I dealt with sorcery, spells and magic, in lives lived as witches pagans and gypsies. Strangely I do feel those subjects and people a strong sense of familiarity.Like I would like to live in a caravan if I could

I was told, in my many past lives, I was attacked, mobbed, killed and burnt to death by the Christians back in the medieval times. Thus in the past when someone tells me he is a Christian, I get very defensive, like a cobra flaring its hood all ready to strike. I often told myself if I was Hilter, the Christians will be another group I would target.

So I really hated 10years of hell. To tell you the truth, I burnt any bible I can lay my hands on.

But I think it was meant for me to be sent there for 10yrs. It's like to resolve any conflict of interest with those Christians(which could be accumulated from the past) then learn to make peace with them, but mostly with myself. As I grew up , and did my own religion studies, I discovered there were so much discrepancies in many of religious teachings. If you want to learn the truth You must do a lot of homework, question relentlessly, and be prepared to face life's many challenges to learn about life out of the book.

Eric, everyone evolves and matures very differently in our emotional, intelligence, intelluctual and spiritual aspects. We all came back many lives to learn and get it right.

So to me, it doesn't matter what religion you belong to , or what road you choice to walk, because at the end of the journey, all roads and paths we have taken. leads us back home, to where we all came from.

[Guest Guest]

Where is Sun Koh and Royston Tan now when you need them?

If Sun and Royston are reading this - please lodge police reports against that Yang Tuck Yoong and Lawrence Khong.

They must have the book thrown at them, that's the only way they will learn.