City Harvest Church Discussion - Kong Hee & Sun Ho (Compiled)

[Guest guest]

I think pastors and believers who have gone on the wrong track are even further away from God then the non-believers..... The one up there can see that they are all nothing but big time hypocrites!

[snowball]

any readers from CHC? how you guys thought of the negative reports?

[Guest AMEN]

any readers from CHC? how you guys thought of the negative reports?

In the name of Jesus, forgive all those who do not know You yet.... for they have not cleanse their minds and hearts, to only speak good and do good to others.

In the name of Jesus, please give them wisdom and cast out all the evil spirits from their bodies and bless them and their families.

In the name of jesus, for there are Faith, Hope and Love ... and Love is the greatest of them all and will prevail.

Amen

[Guest SINNER]

How to cleanse my heart and mind after seeing a lao zabor do the slutty dance>

God, help me!!!!!

[Guest Guest]

In the name of Jesus, forgive all those who do not know You yet.... for they have not cleanse their minds and hearts, to only speak good and do good to others.

In the name of Jesus, please give them wisdom and cast out all the evil spirits from their bodies and bless them and their families.

In the name of jesus, for there are Faith, Hope and Love ... and Love is the greatest of them all and will prevail.

Amen

Typical answer. Trust in God and you will get the answer . No need to think and you will get wisdom.

Why can't some ppl just only their eyes and brain wider ?

[cock brand]

It is very strange that CHC don't rent the Expo Halls directly but through Xtron which is owned by a certain church member.

This allowed Xton to make an easy profit that amounted to more than a few 100K for doing nothing much.

See item 15 of Xtron’s financial statement for FY2007 is available here: http://zohoviewer.com/docs/pbUcuj

Shouldn't CHC be extremely prudent in their spending to get the best price?

Is this also a form of misused of church funds?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest Guest]

Dig deeper into it. SOMEONE might also has share in Xlton. This kind of business style is, in fact, happening everywhere even the Ahem (cannot say here) bodies. You just need to look around. Of course, to make it official, you have to wayang a bit by getting a few quotations blah blah blah .......

[Guest Ray]

Typical answer. Trust in God and you will get the answer . No need to think and you will get wisdom.

Why can't some ppl just only their eyes and brain wider ?

Likewise, why don't CHC believers open their eyes and brian wider? This is again another typical answer

For those stuff they can explain, they will quote from the bible from top to bottom. (Miss-quote many times actually)

For those stuff they can't, "God works in mysterious way........"

How can one fight that?

Singapore government is not an organization that make rash decision. The fact that Pastor Kong and his team were arrested early in the morning and the press was notified, only tells us that the authority has some hard-undisputed evidences that funds were misused by these people. The question is not, whether or not Pastor Kong and his team is guilty but how guilty they are.

As I can imagine, the most of the church members will think this is a test to their faith and many are praying and fasting over this issue because they firmly believe the Pastor Kong is innocent. Based on what evident or fact that they think their pastor is innocent? THEIR FAITH IN A MAN OR IN GOD?

HE MUST BE INNOCENT. Because if he is not, many believers will fall into depression. A hugh portion of the CHC unconsciously built their faith on this man, Pastor Kong, They have forgotten that their should built their relation with GOD not man. If one is clear with this simple concept, there is no need to be upset with the CHC situation. Man come and go but GOD is always there.

Objectively, believers in many CULT groups behave the same way when their leaders got into trouble with the authorities. What make u think CHC has not turn into a Cult already? There are many Christian organization could have been labeled as a cult depends how u want to argue on their denomination practices.

So, r u the one that should be OPENING YR EYES AND BRIAN WIDER?

[Guest Guest]

Likewise, why don't CHC believers open their eyes and brian wider? This is again another typical answer

For those stuff they can explain, they will quote from the bible from top to bottom. (Miss-quote many times actually)

For those stuff they can't, "God works in mysterious way........"

How can one fight that?

Singapore government is not an organization that make rash decision. The fact that Pastor Kong and his team were arrested early in the morning and the press was notified, only tells us that the authority has some hard-undisputed evidences that funds were misused by these people. The question is not, whether or not Pastor Kong and his team is guilty but how guilty they are.

As I can imagine, the most of the church members will think this is a test to their faith and many are praying and fasting over this issue because they firmly believe the Pastor Kong is innocent. Based on what evident or fact that they think their pastor is innocent? THEIR FAITH IN A MAN OR IN GOD?

HE MUST BE INNOCENT. Because if he is not, many believers will fall into depression. A hugh portion of the CHC unconsciously built their faith on this man, Pastor Kong, They have forgotten that their should built their relation with GOD not man. If one is clear with this simple concept, there is no need to be upset with the CHC situation. Man come and go but GOD is always there.

Objectively, believers in many CULT groups behave the same way when their leaders got into trouble with the authorities. What make u think CHC has not turn into a Cult already? There are many Christian organization could have been labeled as a cult depends how u want to argue on their denomination practices.

So, r u the one that should be OPENING YR EYES AND BRIAN WIDER?

Ray dear,

I think i have been misunderstood.

I totally agreed with you. I am just questioning why CHC members do not open their eyes and brain wider.

[Guest kilo]

It is very strange that CHC don't rent the Expo Halls directly but through Xtron which is owned by a certain church member.

This allowed Xton to make an easy profit that amounted to more than a few 100K for doing nothing much.

See item 15 of Xtron’s financial statement for FY2007 is available here: http://zohoviewer.com/docs/pbUcuj

Shouldn't CHC be extremely prudent in their spending to get the best price?

Is this also a form of misused of church funds?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

i used to hear that the halls are related to unusual productions also. Or maybe unusual have some share in the halls or something....

[cock brand]

the thing that came to my mind, was why waste the money on producing slick videos when you are needing the money? Look at the targets at the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4NqneV0Ecw

I also wonder how much the church paid for this video.

Maybe its not cheap!

Based on CHC's financial report, they have a budget of over S$1 million to spend every year on publicity and video production.

And Xtron which is owned by a certain church member is also undertaking a project from "a church" for about the same amount.

But why would a church need to spend so much money on publicity and video production as though it is a commercial retail department store.

To me, this is a mystery. Can anyone enlighten me please.

Wonder if its including the making of China Wine???

[Guest ah lian]

But why would a church need to spend so much money on publicity and video production as though it is a commercial retail department store.

To me, this is a mystery. Can anyone enlighten me please.

Wonder if its including the making of China Wine???

[Guest I am switching Religion]

Ray dear,

I think i have been misunderstood.

I totally agreed with you. I am just questioning why CHC members do not open their eyes and brain wider.

I fully fully agree. I am so sick of what i am hearing, seeing and witnessing that i am going to change my religion/religious affiliation.

[cock brand]

The modern mega churches of this age has taken the new media as their platform to reach out to the masses and non-believer.

Some church even have their Corporate Communication Department in place, whereby media release, PR and even Integrated Marketing Communication (IMC) are creatively used.

Why are you surprised? New media like website, social network site and forum are all the platform they will use. Where do you think the money comes from for the designing, printing of brochure, Literature, banner, press ad, etc?

Oh Yeah, More than S$1 million a year was only for audio/video production.

For those items you mentioned like brochures, printing etc, they were under another even bigger expense account - a cool S$10.3 million!!!

Go read the financial report!

[briax]

I fully fully agree. I am so sick of what i am hearing, seeing and witnessing that i am going to change my religion/religious affiliation.

Actually I dun think that it has anything to do with religions. I am non religious but I do believe that any religion serves a good purpose in its believers' lives. I wont blame anything on religion but anyone who misguided his followers. It is important to keep a clear mind and not be misled by some leaders who strayed off track.

[cock brand]

Actually I dun think that it has anything to do with religions. I am non religious but I do believe that any religion serves a good purpose in its believers' lives. I wont blame anything on religion but anyone who misguided his followers. It is important to keep a clear mind and not be misled by some leaders who strayed off track.

Yeah, I fully agree with you.

This probe is NOT on the religion or the church but on the people who allegedly misused funds and falsification of accounts for personal gain!

[Guest I am switching Religion]

Actually I dun think that it has anything to do with religions. I am non religious but I do believe that any religion serves a good purpose in its believers' lives. I wont blame anything on religion but anyone who misguided his followers. It is important to keep a clear mind and not be misled by some leaders who strayed off track.

Oh don't get me wrong. I fully agree with you. But strictly on a personal basis, i am switching religion and i am deciding between buddhism, islam, judaism, hinduism, confucianism, taoism. Hmmm, i have not decided yet. I have nothing against religion and agree with you that any religion serves a good purpose. And this is why I will still want a religion and will choose one of the above!!!!!

[seawind]

For most Christian: as what quote from all u brothers had said: they say God's work in mysterious ways.

The truth is They don't know God well enough.

Stated in the Bible: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul.

They choose to follow blindly.

It is also stated: not all those who call God, "Lord "will go to heaven. For their heart are far from him.

Most Christian are clearly mistaken that Christianity are a strict religion.

They choose quote to suit their action.

As for title: is true that is 10%. sadly they choose to make it sound like give till your tears flow down your cheek.

Sadly, they didn't see the notion of why giving. Thinking by giving, u get a piece of heaven? Lol

Am a christian myself. Loner in this world. Talking to my God without any musical instrument playing in the background or chanting in tongue.

Back to the basic of loving God.

[Guest ah lian]

Oh Yeah, More than S$1 million a year was only for audio/video production.

For those items you mentioned like brochures, printing etc, they were under another even bigger expense account - a cool S$10.3 million!!!

Go read the financial report!

Cockbrand.. Let me make myself clear. I am not a member of CHC but a follower of Christ.

I am stating this in a very objectively manner.

For example:

Placing a full page black and white ad in Straits Times is about $20K+ and that does not include design and production cost. Putting up a banner in public places like at the Expo needs to purchase the media and rental space and all these cost $$.

Renting of the venue at the Max Pavilion every weekend (Sat and Sun) cost $$ (Sing EXPO) is not giving them free rental.

Having said all these...I think the amount they paid can be justified.

For a mega church of that size (30,000), the amount spend can be easily justified in their own manner and way.

They will "operate" the church like a commercial entity, just like any big MNC brand and product.

Think... how much advertising $$ will an MNC spent to "promote" their brand?

[CamperBoy]

Cockbrand.. Let me make myself clear. I am not a member of CHC but a follower of Christ.

I am stating this in a very objectively manner.

For example:

Placing a full page black and white ad in Straits Times is about $20K+ and that does not include design and production cost. Putting up a banner in public places like at the Expo needs to purchase the media and rental space and all these cost $$.

Renting of the venue at the Max Pavilion every weekend (Sat and Sun) cost $$ (Sing EXPO) is not giving them free rental.

Having said all these...I think the amount they paid can be justified.

For a mega church of that size (30,000), the amount spend can be easily justified in their own manner and way.

They will "operate" the church like a commercial entity, just like any big MNC brand and product.

Think... how much advertising $$ will an MNC spent to "promote" their brand?

The Kingdom of God does not "operate" like an MNC which base its values on a secular standing.

The church is the people. You know that. I know that. But is the church "operating" and "purchasing" base solely on a group of people, or the ENTIRE congregation has a say in it? Which means, have the 30,000 members voted and agreed to whatever that is being "operated" on. You may say it is not effective to get all to vote. Then I say the church is not Spirit led. As an institution being called to a higher calling, whatever they do must be edifying to the community let alone to the adopted jews or gentiles.

Prosperity gospel teachings have crept into the sinners mind of the members! These unbiblical teachings must be stopped at all cost!

If you are really a follower of Jesus, then spread the word! Do we really need a convention hall that cost $20k per session to hear the Word of God! NO! The Word of God can be spread in houses, fields etc that cost much much less! But sadly, the "church" just want the good things in life. Good seats. Strong air conditioning. Dynamic preachers. Fancy spotlights.

Hell...they even separate songs into praise songs and worship songs category!! WAD IS THAT ALL ABT!!! GOSH!!

[Guest 2%]

For most Christian: as what quote from all u brothers had said: they say God's work in mysterious ways.

The truth is They don't know God well enough.

Stated in the Bible: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul.

They choose to follow blindly.

It is also stated: not all those who call God, "Lord "will go to heaven. For their heart are far from him.

Most Christian are clearly mistaken that Christianity are a strict religion.

They choose quote to suit their action.

As for title: is true that is 10%. sadly they choose to make it sound like give till your tears flow down your cheek.

Sadly, they didn't see the notion of why giving. Thinking by giving, u get a piece of heaven? Lol

Am a christian myself. Loner in this world. Talking to my God without any musical instrument playing in the background or chanting in tongue.

Back to the basic of loving God.

i think the 10% is separate from the money they give for the building. And as for the give until got tears....there is a verse in the bible that describes that. It's just how the speaker put it differently. i dun think everyone give until got tears. There are children, elderly and handicap members too. Maybe just a few of them la.....give until tears.

[cock brand]

Cockbrand.. Let me make myself clear. I am not a member of CHC but a follower of Christ.

I am stating this in a very objectively manner.

For example:

Placing a full page black and white ad in Straits Times is about $20K+ and that does not include design and production cost. Putting up a banner in public places like at the Expo needs to purchase the media and rental space and all these cost $$.

Renting of the venue at the Max Pavilion every weekend (Sat and Sun) cost $$ (Sing EXPO) is not giving them free rental.

Having said all these...I think the amount they paid can be justified.

For a mega church of that size (30,000), the amount spend can be easily justified in their own manner and way.

They will "operate" the church like a commercial entity, just like any big MNC brand and product.

Think... how much advertising $$ will an MNC spent to "promote" their brand?

They will "operate" the church like a commercial entity, just like any big MNC brand and product.

Think... how much advertising $$ will an MNC spent to "promote" their brand?

Firstly, what you said here were all wrong!

A religious entity can NEVER be treated as a MNC and you cannot put up any advertisement to promote any religion, it is not allowed!

I still think that you should go and read the financial report before making more noise.

For your info, rental of halls was again under another account, it cost the church another cool S$2.9 million!!!

All in all , the church spend more than S$40 million a year on all these things!

S$40,000,000.00

Just a 1% of it is S$400,000.00, very very tempting huh?

Of course, the church can decide to spend S$400 million or even S$400 billion; who cares as long as they have the money and theres an actual need to spend so much.

So whether the amount is small or very large, we are not here to justify the expenses .

But the point here is this : were those money really being spent rightfully and did some of it found its way back into someone's pocket along the way?

That is what this probe is all about now!

Got it?

[Guest guest]

cock brand, don't waste your breathe.. Someone people will die die try to justify. Save you time

[Guest aiya]

cock brand, don't waste your breathe.. Someone people will die die try to justify. Save you time

agreed...there are some highly educated pple but 'die-die' would not admit defeat.

they have already been brainwashed like those in the 'terrorist camp' - willing to die for religion???

however someone is laughing up there at them....lol

[guguchiao]

I too, feel that this is just not right !

I heard they held "rock concerts" during the church session .. just changing the lyrics of the latest pop songs with christian lyrics.. no wonder so many "youngsters" go there juz to have fun.. they attempted to change the meaning of real christianity by being different but then, they are actually abandoning religion.

I realized that there is a new kind of business nowadays, and it will sure to make big money out of this business. You just register your company in the name of "GOD". If you don't become a billionaire, at least you will become a millionaire.

[Guest cynthia]

Me wanna see pure lighta!!!

I totally agree. All churches can actually be closed down. May be left few of them to cater for old folks. Now all young generations was attracted by live bands and not faithful to god at all. They will enjoy in a so-called cosy environment with air con. They have team leaders pushing non-christian to join their cell group. Do they earn commission? My friend was in bad relationship with his son because of team leaders always pestering his son to go bible study after school. It affects the studies.

[Guest Guest]

ask these kids to spread god words to countries like iraq, iran, aghan...wonder if they do it?

what i know is that the south koreans have been actively preaching all over the world.

[trevorcantona]

ask these kids to spread god words to countries like iraq, iran, aghan...wonder if they do it?

what i know is that the south koreans have been actively preaching all over the world.

Oh I met a South Korean preacher last year! he was preaching near somerset MRT just opposite Singtel Building and as I am interested to hear what he has to say, i followed him to his church lah!

After watching a professionally made but "brain-washing" DVD bout his sect's religious beliefs and "great" organisation, i finally say the underlining message from his church!

They believe that their founder's God!! I wanted to laugh out loud when I realised that!!!

I was like WTF!??! So i asked him how can his founder be his God as well?!?!

I told him that i will believe him, if after i pray to his founder, she gives me a million bucks, of course, the almighty God could not do so hahahahaha...

[Guest Is it church]

Today newspaper reported on the poor business at outlet at Suntec.

If a building is own by a church and have a whole floor of it for church services, just makes u wonder if Suntec is actually a church with shops?

[Guest guest]

What happened to he probe? Have not heard anything since..... anyone here can update us a little bit?

[Guest Guest]

Any update on the probe? It's been more than one year now...

[cvbv1987]

the probe has come to an end.

When someone does a mistake, everyone always tries to amplify that but when it is proven otherwise, no one talks about it. It's not the case in this probe, you can see history and it repeats itself.

if you are really interested in what happened to the church, go find someone from that church and ask someone.

[cvbv1987]

oh yeah and by the way, it was only an ACCUSATION of misuse, NOT A CONFIRMATION!!!

Get your facts right.

[Guest Yeah yeah]

the probe has come to an end.

Any press release or statement by the Singapore police force to confirm this?

[gymcub]

the probe has come to an end. When someone does a mistake, everyone always tries to amplify that but when it is proven otherwise, no one talks about it. It's not the case in this probe, you can see history and it repeats itself. if you are really interested in what happened to the church, go find someone from that church and ask someone.

hi, can I ask where is the news or police press release regarding the end of the probe? From what I can remember, nothing much was said about what happened and whether the investigation has been concluded? Please enlighten me. thank you.

Edited October 12, 2011 by gymcub

[Guest Guest]

if you are really interested in what happened to the church, go find someone from that church and ask someone.

Are you from the church?

Why isn't the church more forthcoming with details of the status of the probe? Instead, we are asked to go find someone from the church and ask him/her?

[Guest Neutral]

Are you from the church?

Why isn't the church more forthcoming with details of the status of the probe? Instead, we are asked to go find someone from the church and ask him/her?

Since the probe has ended, why do u still harp on the church? Agree with cvbv1987, why can't u let the matter rest? Trying to stir up some rife and hatred against the church against Christians? You really have nothing to do, bo liao! Why don't u dig out the Buddhist monk's case again? :whistle:

[Guest Erotictales]

Since the probe has ended, why do u still harp on the church? Agree with cvbv1987, why can't u let the matter rest? Trying to stir up some rife and hatred against the church against Christians? You really have nothing to do, bo liao! Why don't u dig out the Buddhist monk's case again? :whistle:

CHC hardly represent churches or christians at all. Interest in what is happening to a reported, large scale financial investigation is in no way inciting hatred against christianity.

In fact, those who attempt to paint it this way are the ones who using religious hatred to conceal their own doings.

[cvbv1987]

hi, can I ask where is the news or police press release regarding the end of the probe? From what I can remember, nothing much was said about what happened and whether the investigation has been concluded? Please enlighten me. thank you.

you have to ask the police or the media why are they so quiet? I am not a policemen neither do I work for the media. I have no idea why they were so ENTHUSIASTIC when the issue surfaced and nothing now...

Perhaps, it is pretty obvious, there is nothing to talk about. Everything has been settled.

[cvbv1987]

Are you from the church?

Why isn't the church more forthcoming with details of the status of the probe? Instead, we are asked to go find someone from the church and ask him/her?

It doesn't matter if i m from the church..

About your second sentence. IMAGINE, your family had an issue and it came out in the papers. WOULD YOU go around to the whole publishing what is happening in your family?

It is very easy to stand from the outside and comment but when you are in such situations, you will react in a totally different manner.

and to the rest of you out there who can't wait to condemn people for their wrongdoings and mistake, I just want to say that NO man is perfect. if you are finding for the best way to put someone down because of some wrong they MIGHT have done, get a freaking life.

Thank you Neutral and eroctictales for your mature comments.

[cvbv1987]

Don't know what this song is all about? Hope the record sell well.

Hope the probe will be out soon. There are always political reasons and consideration when investigating a religious or charity organization. Because the no. of devotees or members involve. what we see on paper is only part of it.

Anyway, I seriously wondering why she as a pastor's wife need to sing this China wine song ...... Peace.

doesn't mean you are a pastor's wife, you can't be a pop star. Everyone has their dreams to accomplish, and BY THE WAY, THE SONG WAS A HIT...

It is just in singapore, we don't know how to appreciate our local talents and WE CANT WAIT TO CONDEMN those who have broke through. Where I am right, people from all over the world actually knows what she is doing. Mind you, i m not supporting her but the fact that a fellow singaporean has broken through into the english music world is pretty commendable. so stop looking at her as pastor's wife and start looking at her like a normal person.

and by the way, IT TAKES A FREAKING SWINE to know about another SWINE you MOTHER OF ALL SWINES...

[Guest Guest]

Perhaps, it is pretty obvious, there is nothing to talk about. Everything has been settled.

If it's true that everything has been settled, the police should issue a statement on it.

Otherwise the public would have every right to assume that investigations are still ongoing (which is most probably the case, until an official media statement from the SPF is issued).

Don't forget that this is a matter of public interest as Kong Hee and his wife are public figures in the religious and entertainment industries, and are also news figures.

And it definitely matters whether you're from the church, or not. I do not think even neutral Singaporeans would adopt the stance that you, cbvb1987, have taken, which is to self-righteously tell others that the probe has been closed without any official statement on the matter, and ask the public to contact church members for any further information. Such an evasive and unhelpful statement sounds more like something a church member would say.

I also noticed from your profile that you live in JURONG. I would conclude, therefore, that there is a high possibility you are a City Harvest Church member.

There's nothing wrong with being a CHC member, but there's something wrong when you're so evasive about whether or not you're one.

[Guest Guest]

doesn't mean you are a pastor's wife, you can't be a pop star. Everyone has their dreams to accomplish, and BY THE WAY, THE SONG WAS A HIT...

Agree totally.

By the same token, a very definite indicator that the SPF has concluded their probe without any criminal liability found on the part of Kong Hee and Sun Ho, would be when Sun Ho returns to the United States with Dayan, to continue her Billboard-charting music career. Has that happened yet?

[cvbv1987]

on that very same token, Sun Ho has decided to stay on for a while and help her husband to be part of the church before going back to her career.

[gymcub]

you have to ask the police or the media why are they so quiet?

then perhaps the case has not concluded and investigation should still be ongoing bah... anyway thks.

[Guest Guest]

on that very same token, Sun Ho has decided to stay on for a while and help her husband to be part of the church before going back to her career.

And how would you know that? It was not published in the local or international media. Are you from City Harvest Church?

[cvbv1987]

If it's true that everything has been settled, the police should issue a statement on it.

Otherwise the public would have every right to assume that investigations are still ongoing (which is most probably the case, until an official media statement from the SPF is issued).

Don't forget that this is a matter of public interest as Kong Hee and his wife are public figures in the religious and entertainment industries, and are also news figures.

And it definitely matters whether you're from the church, or not. I do not think even neutral Singaporeans would adopt the stance that you, cbvb1987, have taken, which is to self-righteously tell others that the probe has been closed without any official statement on the matter, and ask the public to contact church members for any further information. Such an evasive and unhelpful statement sounds more like something a church member would say.

I also noticed from your profile that you live in JURONG. I would conclude, therefore, that there is a high possibility you are a City Harvest Church member.

There's nothing wrong with being a CHC member, but there's something wrong when you're so evasive about whether or not you're one.

Hmmm.. Fair argument but there are a lot of things in the media IF YOU DIGGED IT UP, that has no conclusions until today.

Well, i still think you don't have to be a church member to speak up for a group of people who has gone through a lot as a whole. and by the way, i currently reside in AUSTRALIA.. maybe i go to AUSTRALIA HARVEST CHURCH? if there is one.. most funniest way of piecing information together. HAHA.. and by the way, the church is no longer functioning in Jurong. It is all in SUNTEC.

[cvbv1987]

And how would you know that? It was not published in the local or international media. Are you from City Harvest Church?

Let's just say that I have my sources.

[Guest Guest]

then perhaps the case has not concluded and investigation should still be ongoing bah... anyway thks.

Highly likely, as the Singapore Police Force did mention in their initial press release in July 2010 that they are investigating individuals and companies connected to the church, and reviewing financial and other records dating back a FEW YEARS.

And a warrant for a police raid at 6.30 am on a Monday morning certainly would not have been approved without some preliminary credible evidence justifying such a raid, which would be for further information or prevention of destruction of evidence.

[cvbv1987]

And how would you know that? It was not published in the local or international media. Are you from City Harvest Church?

and lets just say again that i have my sources which is pretty reliable.