City Harvest Church Discussion - Kong Hee & Sun Ho (Compiled)

[curious_boi]

The verdict is not out yet, give them a break.

You think the CoC and the auditors spend 2 years for nothing without combing through the statements and evidence?

[curious_boi]

Sorry. My mistake. Registered charities get income tax exemption.

In Singapore, there are laws that apply to all charitable organisations. It is the nation's business to look into them.

Yup, but you are right, as a public charity, they are not only accountable to their beneficiaries but to the public as well as the organisation does not pay income tax.

[Guest cactus]

i hope HYS considers my proposal...

this will win her more male fans and of coz without spending 23mill... :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

she also gets a chance to pose for playboy, hustler, penthouse which can generate more income showing her tits without spending 23 mill..

this will add on more spice to her sex life without spending 23million....

That's the way, ah-hah, ah-hah, I like it!

Female Pastor in Playboy magazine! I hope the "Christian association" can strip their Pastor title off!

[Guest cactus]

No wonder so many lasy ppl want to become pastor! I learned so many skills to make a decent living just to improve my life and work like hell...These lazy ppl just talk abt Jesus and can make so much money so easily! Maybe we should all setup churhes here and give discount to our followers, only need to contribute 5 percent instead of 10 percent. You think it works? haha

Good! Well said! :clap:

[kunshinji]

That's the way, ah-hah, ah-hah, I like it!

Female Pastor in Playboy magazine! I hope the "Christian association" can strip their Pastor title off!

She was never a Pastor, she has never been ordained as one.

When she started out in Taiwan, she was nicknamed the 音乐牧师 (Music Pastor) due to her affiliation to CHC, where she previously lead the Creative Department, and is *duh* Kong's wife. That clarification has been made many times in public. People don't go "Pastor and Mrs Kong", they'd address the couple as "Pastor Kong and Sun."

Am not a blind supporter, or an ignorant person. I believe in the upholding of justice, regardless what/how much good is done. What people feel about them is their business and we shouldn't judge them for it.

Plus, shouldn't we be some form of an example?

The public takes one AIDs carrier, or one publicly promiscuous and out gay man, and throw that stereotype on the entire community, don't we ask people to not rub it on all of us and not judge every single one of us due to the fault of one man? If it doesn't concern us, we shouldn't let it bother us as well.

Like cvbc1987 has said, "People honestly have nothing to do other than just ramble over and over when it's quite clear they didn't contribute to any part of the 24 million dollars." I think we should just lay it down.

I'm sure there are CHC members amongst us here. If there is a supposed "better time", this week should be the time to not cast the proverbial first stone, and embrace each other in the community. Pink Dot is about us uniting for a cause, not allow this one incident to tear us apart due to differences in opinions and angle of sight.

[Guest Ironrod]

These comments just make me laugh. People honestly have nothing to do other than just ramble over and over when it's quite clear they didn't contribute to any part of the 24 million dollars.

Go do something more productive like spreading the awareness of Pink Dot 2012 among your friends.

Have u ever gone to one of their session?

I truly dislike the way they influence the young.

I thought I was in craze land but the followers reaction proves they are more like a cult then anything.

Of course, u can say it's not our money we don't have to care but do remember it's like cancer it does spread and u never know when it well affect u.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Ironrod

[ubertired]

These comments just make me laugh. People honestly have nothing to do other than just ramble over and over when it's quite clear they didn't contribute to any part of the 24 million dollars.

So based on your logic, if you murdered people I don't know, then it is none of my business, nor should the police step in, because none of us have anything to do with it?

Do you even know how irrational your statement is?

If my right to comment on a registered charity is based on contributions, I am more than happy to donate a cent (yes, 0.01) to have my say.

Your point is?

[ubertired]

The public takes one AIDs carrier, or one publicly promiscuous and out gay man, and throw that stereotype on the entire community, don't we ask people to not rub it on all of us and not judge every single one of us due to the fault of one man? If it doesn't concern us, we shouldn't let it bother us as well.

Like cvbc1987 has said, "People honestly have nothing to do other than just ramble over and over when it's quite clear they didn't contribute to any part of the 24 million dollars." I think we should just lay it down.

The difference is, CHC propagates the prosperity gospel, whose core message is material wealth through spiritual belief (I'm just summarizing here - I have no intention to go into details) and now that one founder has found money to be his undoing.

That is different from stereotyping, where you assume the entire community behaves a certain way. It isn't assumption - it is a well known part of what they preach.

And spare me your religious explanations - this is purely a legal matter. I believe in the separation of church and state.

[Guest cactus]

She was never a Pastor, she has never been ordained as one.

When she started out in Taiwan, she was nicknamed the 音乐牧师 (Music Pastor) due to her affiliation to CHC, where she previously lead the Creative Department, and is *duh* Kong's wife. That clarification has been made many times in public. People don't go "Pastor and Mrs Kong", they'd address the couple as "Pastor Kong and Sun."

Am not a blind supporter, or an ignorant person. I believe in the upholding of justice, regardless what/how much good is done. What people feel about them is their business and we shouldn't judge them for it.

Bloody bullshit! This tell everybody kunshinji is ignorant! Anyhow read from Wikipedia.

Year 2000 and 2004 新明日报 reported Sun Ho as a full-fledged Pastor! You will be surprised I can dig out past newspaper report which cannot be found online.

Sun Ho needs to focus her music career, that is the reason why she cannot carry her name as Pastor! 用屁股想都知道。

The knew world knew she is a Pastor! Read online [1][2][3][4]. There are many more.

I'm sure there are CHC members amongst us here. If there is a supposed "better time", this week should be the time to not cast the proverbial first stone, and embrace each other in the community.

Then, good luck to you. CHC suits you best!

Pink Dot is about us uniting for a cause, not allow this one incident to tear us apart due to differences in opinions and angle of sight.

Thank you for promotion distraction. Hah!

Edited June 30, 2012 by cactus

[Guest cactus]

Have u ever gone to one of their session?

I truly dislike the way they influence the young.

I thought I was in craze land but the followers reaction proves they are more like a cult then anything.

Of course, u can say it's not our money we don't have to care but do remember it's like cancer it does spread and u never know when it well affect u.

Agree!

Macham a rock concert! They use young people to influence young people.

Only goon-doo believers jump up, down, shake, cry, faint and sing along as if seeing Micheal Jackson! The power of spiritual tongues to cox people to come with more money for Sun Ho's music career, 9 millions Sentosa Cove, electrical, air-con bills and etc.

Unfortunately, goon-doo believers still cannot wake up. They cannot accept CHC cheated money. Support, support and support.

Edited June 30, 2012 by cactus

[Exynos]

my personal opinion is that... if they didn't do anything wrong then

1) why would there be rumors regarding their church? i never heard any rumors at the church near my home

2) why would they even be arrested? when there's smoke, there's fire.

i mean, i don't have a religion. but honestly Christians and Catholics scare me at times. I don't mean this with ANY offense to anyone, but my sec sch was an all boys' Catholic school. and albeit it was partly my fault that the whole school knew i was gay, my sec 2 form teacher, a devout Catholic, went to the extent to try to brainwash and convert me to being "straight". i'm also annoyed by random Christians/Catholics hounding people on the streets to join their church, although it's a less common sight now.

what i'm trying to say is, i don't hate this religion, but i think some of the followers are just weird beyond my comprehension. i don't like Sun Ho personally, and i don't know anyone from CHC (as in the arrested people), neither have i stepped into their church for anything.

but like what Tay Ping Hui tweeted, it's a fact they misused funds (otherwise why would they be arrested?), why even bother to delude ourselves and try to defend them? a mistake is a mistake. and yes i never donated anything, it's technically none of my business, but it enrages me to know such people exist; to use something as personal as religion to CHEAT and LIE to people?! i mean how immoral and unethical can u be?

[Guest cactus]

1) why would there be rumors regarding their church? i never heard any rumors at the church near my home

You are right. Other church no problem. Why this mega church got problem?!

2) why would they even be arrested? when there's smoke, there's fire.

In Chinese we say, 无风不起浪。

Government investigated for two years, they knew something was wrong!

The CHC goon-doo devotees assume Singapore Government is stupid!

[Seignolia]

Jesus said in the Gospel according to Matthew 7:16-23 that

¹⁶ You will ^[a] know them by their fruits. ^[b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? ¹⁷ So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. ¹⁸ A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. ¹⁹ Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ²⁰ So then, you will ^[c]know them by their fruits.

²¹ “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ²² Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many ^[d]miracles?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Quite a number of non-CHC Christians quoted that to preach against those supporters.

[cvbv1987]

Singaporeans will always be Singaporeans.

[craze]

You think the CoC and the auditors spend 2 years for nothing without combing through the statements and evidence?

yeah! but i find it kinda short, should take a least 20 years! sigh..

Singaporeans will always be Singaporeans.

Haha that why Hosen Leong "We Are Singaporeans" LOL

[ubertired]

Singaporeans will always be Singaporeans.

have you run out of prepackaged sentences to say? because I have yet to hear an independent opinion from you, that isn't a rehash of a statement made elsewhere.

[Bry]

It seems like common sense is not so common after all. In a way, Pastor Kong "deserves" the money; he is exceptionally smart and adept at psychological and emotional manipulation. Smart people earn more money and that's how the corporate world works isn't it. He has built a cult (or cult-like following) with followers who would stand by him no matter what. Aren't many multi-national corporations and top-level scheming people in a way short-changing and cheating us commoners in a way? Look at the American fast food industry and many other better-known cases of public deceit and manipulation. This world is ruled by power and money and has been this way since time immemorial. Unless we come together and have a way of changing the very underpinning of all societies, I'd say it's time we awaken to this cruel, timeless truth and stop our escapism.

Ok my view is that those brainwashed Christians aren't stupid and neither are most of the extreme believers of other religions. The need to believe fervently is simply human; nobody, not even atheists are exempt from this. Atheists are very sad people indeed. Many atheists (or former Christians/buddhists/etc) could tell you how painful it is to awaken to the cruel reality of this world, without the belief in a higher power to assuage their harsh and grueling lives. It is a brave intellectual leap and a devastating acceptance of the patent truth. Certainly not everyone can do this. Those born free-thinkers have it easier, but they also have a need to believe in sth, and usually it is love. But it's really sad to see the world in such a state and how sinister devil incarnates are preying on desperate people, who have their will and intellect weakened by trials and tribulations, and getting away with murder(idiom). Mind you, Pastor Kong is but one of the sea of charlatans that has swept humanity since the "Spirituality and Mediumship Era". Unless humanity learns to accept that religions are but fabrications, of those who had coveted power and wealth and had been clever enough to devise means to achieve that end without being exposed, it will never emerge from the tunnel of ignorance and self-deceit.

If you'd want an elucidating read, http://gssq.blogspot.sg/2007/01/vist-to-cash-harvest-cult-i-went-to.html

Derren Brown and James Randi are the REAL good people, compared to all the preachers of airy fairy nonsense.

[Bry]

And even if he and his cronies are proven innocent, it doesn't negate the psychological and emotional (I may add financial) damage done to the followers. The stiffling of individuality, the false salvation, mind-crippling delusion that taints every other aspect of their lives and interactions with others may be irreversible. To be fair, religion, spirituality and the new age may make make people better and kinder, but at the expense of the sense of reason and logical thinking. Also, the kindness may very well be hypocrisy at its worst, whereby people lust for divine blessings, God's favour and good karma by doing what they think is good (which may, logically speaking, not be good at all). Some want to be special and yes, spirituality and magick makes them feel that way, no matter how they deny that it is who they are and it is a path not self-aggrandisement blah blah blah. This is not even considering the harm religion has caused over the centuries ("holy" wars, crusades, terrorism, prejudice and violent extremism etc) as opposed to the debatable good that resulted.

[Bry]

Oh shucks I went on a tangent (off-topic) !!

[cvbv1987]

have you run out of prepackaged sentences to say? because I have yet to hear an independent opinion from you, that isn't a rehash of a statement made elsewhere.

whats the use of letting you hear my opinion when you have CLEARLY made up your mind on this issue and are ready to slam my opinion down to the best of your ability.

[Exynos]

I cannot see an angle to this crisis where Pastor Kong could be in the right, morally or legally. That's why my opinion is as such. No offense but saying stuff like, 'We shouldn't judge before we know the truth', or 'It's not really our business' isn't gonna help when there're so many reports, figures, numbers, statistics and facts out there.

Although of course I would love to wait and see what happens with this drama, but I honestly doubt any major turn of events will occur.

[Anderson]

Y does the relevant authority need 2 yrs to investigate and another 1 mth for the case to be mentioned again???

After reading to them their charges in the first hearing, the defendants are given some time to seek legal advice on their charges while on bail.

When they come back for the next hearing in court next month, they will then have to decide to plea guilty or fight the case.

[Guest ScepticalEnquirer]

I am no Christian but I chanced upon a comment that, by far, seems to be made by the most commonsensical Christian ever. All Christians should read this, although I do not support Christianity because, after all this commentor would probably deride homosexuality all the same.

http://sgforums.com/forums/4163/posts

I am a Christian and I've attended City Harvest Church for two periods in my life for a total of 2 to 2.5 years.

I initially attended it with my folks. We enjoyed the sermon and the clear teachings of the pastor and his fellow leaders. But things went downhill one Sunday morning when a leader took to the stage to plug Ho Yeow Sun's new album. The horrifying thing was how he chirpily used hard sell tactics to move the units. We were asked to buy more than one copy and pass them to our friends. If one were to buy 6 copies or some absurd number, that would entitle one to a free poster or t-shirt (something along those lines). What was most upsetting at that time, was the fact that he was using the pulpit to push the sales of the pastor's wife who was more interested in cutting pop albums than say attending church service. The posters from her new album were also plastered along the entrance and lobby of the building. There were no images of Jesus. No, instead, this singer's face, the pastor's wife, was all over the building. If that does not trigger alarm bells in the average church-goer, what will? That was the last week we attended CHC.

Kong Hee and Sun Ho - A celebrity culture

This leads me to ask this very important question. Who is worthy to be worshipped? Jesus? Or a man and his wife? Unfortunately, this question has not been addressed. Twitter has been a flurry with ultra-supportive tweets from young members (and some older ones), proclaiming their undying loyalty for their pastor and his wife. Some say that they believe in the duo, know their hearts, believe in their cause and have already declared them innocent and faultless. The Christian community, Christian leaders (within and outside of the church) and church members themselves should have questioned the culture of CHC - where the pastor and his wife have Fan Pages on Facebook, where their supporters, fans, devotees, express their undying love and support for the duo and what they do. Any pastor, any leader of a church should know that this is not the right type of church culture and it should NOT be encouraged. This should NOT be advocated. Never mind what the pastor has done and his successes. No pastor should have a Facebook fan page. I find that absurd. Didn't the bible say that we should have no idols? And that we are to have only one God? Why do the church members till this day pledge their undying support for their pastor and his wife when clearly their loyalty and devotion should be channeled to serving God? Why are they fighting fire with fire? Why are they risking life and limb to support a man and his wife? Why are they not declaring their love for God instead? How has this man and his wife managed to mesmerise these youths to the point of delirious and blind support, such that Reverends from other churches have pinpointed the matter of blind support as an issue, a problem and yet these kids, CHC cell group leaders, etc, continue to obsessively tweet their love for the man and his wife?

I can have respect for a leader. I can praise him for his work, but ultimately all glory goes to God. I don't see why I should dedicate myself to acting like his rabid fan for his good sermons and his community service. Instead, it would be way wiser to ask God for similar blessings and encourage everyone to learn from his good example but not necessarily put him on a pedestal that all begin to forget that he is only human. If anything, men can fall, men are imperfect and only God is perfect. This is commonsensical, logical and of course biblical. So why the 100% Faith in a Man? CHC members should ask themselves why they feel so much love for Kong Hee and his wife. What is the source of this love? Does it come from a healthy place? CHC members must realise that Kong Hee, his wife and their team are mere mortals, mere men, and can fall. If they love their leaders, they should be bold, correct, rebuke if necessary. They should be discerning and wise. A thinking individual who exercises the intellect that God has given him, is a wise man who is an asset to those around him.

Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning.

It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don't, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person.

"James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Jesus and the Apostles were very bold and rebuked and condemned evil. They even openly rebuked people in the church for doing evil, in order to strengthen the church. Rebuking a sinner, exposing corruption, correcting someone in love or disciplining ones children is not judging wrongfully. f so, Jesus and the Apostles who were our example to follow would have been in error.

Source:

truechristianity.com

To be an asset to any setting and situation we are in - we need to think critically. Decide when to accept, reject, ask, comply, argue, refuse, suggest and stand up for and against the actions of our fellow human beings. This applies to any context. Question your leaders. Your teacher, your boss at work, your colleagues, your most esteemed mentor, your gang leader, politicians, your prime minister, the United Nations panel, whoever they are, their ideas and actions are imperfect. No one but God is perfect. Full stop. With great power comes great responsibility - inserting this here for the young CHC members who might understand a quote from Spiderman. It is our job to make sure our leaders can do THEIR jobs well, efficiently, ethically.

The leaders of CHC might or might not be proven guilty. Nonetheless, they have crossed the lines of morality and ethics as church leaders, beacons of example, role models to their young congregation in the following ways:

1) Pressurising their members - students, youths especially - to purchase Sun Ho's albums. These students get their allowance from their parents, most have yet to work a day in their lives. Why does CHC's leaders find it reasonable and acceptable for their members' parents to fork over money for Sun Ho's music ambitions? I'm sure a good portion of the money went to doing real charity work. But what about the portion that didn't? Are we to close an eye to the siphoning of monies? God expects us to be good stewards of our money. This means that when we give, we must know where it will end up. So the hastag "mytrustisnotbreached" on Twitter just speaks of how misinformed their young members and leaders are, and how willing they are to continue to be duped if necessary. Members have tweeted that despite all of this, they would continue to give and give more. The issue we non-members and Christians from other churches, have is why they would willingly contribute to the music career of their pastor and his wife. Why they would stamp their approval on doctoring books, creative accounting, falsifying documents and dealing only in cash to throw auditors and the authorities of their scent? Does it mean to say that your wholehearted support and love Kong Hee, his wife and their team stands for corruption, cooking the books and deception/dishonesty? Do you mean to say that your leaders couldn't have handled the matter better? Could they not have been clearer about their intention with certain portions of the money given? Could they not have avoided selling her CDs during service? Could they not have pressured your young members to buy her CDs? Could your leaders not have given external bodies like the COC even a fragment of a chance to penalise them in any way? They are now facing 36 charges. CHC members, this is a wake up call. God does not allow this to happen for no reason. God does not stand for deception, vanity, consumerism and materialism.

2) Surely, your parents would not let you walk out of your house in skimpy, skin hugging attire. Christian parents, perhaps even more so. What about a church leader, a pastor who preaches from the bible? Is the body not a temple of God? Accepting your wife's wishes - to dance, gyrate and parade in front of the world as a Geisha (a Japanese hostess trained to entertain men with conversation, dance, and song), an angry girlfriend cohabiting with her boyfriend and creating music for clubbers to gyrate and dry hump in clubs across the States - not putting your foot down, and promoting her music, her work, her lifestyle to young impressionable minds at CHC is just a BIG NO-NO. IT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. Christians should not compromise in such a manner. I find it so sad that these young CHC members, some whom I know personally, do not see how their pastor and his wife are so very weak and so very wrong in this manner. Other pastors, other church leaders, the Christian community, the secular community have disapproved of this. Yet only CHC stands by their pastor's "choices" and his wife's lifestyle.

Materialism and Consumerism

Just a question - when should religious leaders say no to love gifts? Do you need that expensive high end tablet or can you just make do with the phone you own now? Do you NEED that? Do you need to stay in the most expensive housing project in Singapore when there are clearly better ways to spend your money? If you are truly doing God's work, I really don't think you'd find it wise to spend your money on an excessively expensive and overpriced car or condominium. Kong Hee is no king in the eyes of God. He is his servants. Yes, servants of God should be blessed. But we should always spend wisely and seek His counsel pertaining to such matters. Solomon for instance, used his riches to build God's temple.As Christians, we should try our hardest to avoid chasing the things of the world. The 5Cs apply to Singaporeans, but surely, as a church leader with such a "following" more judicious spending of his church money, his own monies, whatever finances he has access to, is only sound and morally and ethically right.

The second time I joined the church was for a shorter period. I joined a cell group and soon learned that 4 out of 5 of the leaders did not care for me. They cared for God yes. They were fervent in that manner yes. But unfortunately, they were not encouraged by their higher-ups to care in a way that mattered to the youth who were under them.

1) We were pressured into socialising after church. To go back to study, was discouraged. "Hang around and spend time, socialise with members of God" they would say. Apparently attending service is not enough and forcing a young member (group pressure) to socialise despite having a Chinese exam the next day, is godly.

2) You must attend service at least once a week - if not BE WARNED. Once, I decided to skip the morning service and not attend it with the cell group and to watch the online broadcast. My parents had given me their approval as a kid, to skip the service, rest and recuperate for the busy week ahead and spend time with God on my own. One of the cell leader's assistant called me to berate me in a very harsh manner. I needed to go she said, attend the afternoon service, she would go with me for it, she said. She was clearly overriding my parents' authority and making me FEAR her as a 15-year-old. Where do these cell-leaders get their gumption from? Who taught them to be such repressive, indoctrinated, uncaring, unfeeling, superficial and overbearing leaders? GOD IS LOVE. GOD DOES NOT INDUCE FEAR. GOD IS MERCIFUL. CHC members, if you are reading this and if you are guilty of this, stop this nonsense right now. Pray about it and let God lead you in your leadership of the youths under you. I'm pointing this out because thousands have been bullied, pressured, many have backslided because of the errant ways of your young leaders and the lack of wisdom by those over your young leaders. This needs to stop. This is the Church of God. Not the Church of Kong Hee and not the Church of Your Human Ways.

3) We were pressured into buying a church organiser for about $26-$29 if I remember correctly. All members of the cellgroup made a purchase, members were taught to frown upon others who did not make that purchase. I saved really hard for 3 weeks to get that kind of money with my paltry allowance. There was no other way for me to get my hands on that kind of money. I was a student in the midst of a busy school year, my parents are not rich, I've no older sibling and "godly" church members were forcing me to pay for a diary I would not use. I would pay $1 for a diary as a student - a simple notebook. But this church was forcing me to hand over several tens for a silly book that wasn't even the bible. In the end, I got my money back and returned the diary. That was the last I saw of those horrible, horrible people, who treated me as just a statistics to boost their cell group size.

City Harvest Church started out with the vision to plant God's word in the heart of non-believers. CHC represents Christianity on a mega-scale. Its leaders need to do its utmost to maintain the leadership/management's integrity. Its leaders need to set forth directives for its young leaders to exercise caution, love and grace with their members. Its leaders need to make stands - stand up against materialism, consumerism, fetishism, vanity, worldly pursuits and blind support for mere men. The CHC body needs to better represent itself - as it represents the Christian community, not only in Singapore, but all over the world. It also needs to re-invent itself and restore its image for the church itself has done A LOT OF GOOD. It needs to create a good image for itself, for its members and for God.

CHC should release a statement along the lines of this - to show the world and most importantly, what its young members should believe in.

1) CHC stands for good, honest accounting.

2) CHC stands for biblical principles.

3) CHC supports its leadership and would love for its members to pray them through this difficult period. That said, it no way condones any dishonesty whatsoever and aims to be judicious in spending members' contributions and is looking for ways to improve the system.

4) CHC will continue to do God's work according to the word.

I personally believe that CHC should end this Celebrity Culture thing that it has going on with Kong Hee, Sun Ho and its other leaders. Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. I really hope that the existing CHC leadership can be better examples and better leaders to its young congregation. Please tell them to stop blindly supporting Kong Hee and his wife on Twitter, Facebook and in their personal lives. Men are imperfect, accept that. Only God is perfect. No one is persecuting God. The lifestyles of Kong Hee, his wife and the leadership are being judged. And why not? They are imperfect. Let them be judged by the courts. Let the law take its due course. Detractors and supporters must realise that Kong Hee, Sun Ho and the team are IMPERFECT.

NO ONE IS PERSECUTING GOD or Godly lifestyles. Let's get that straight.

[Guest Guest]

你不要跟我太过分！ :twisted:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ya3Hqu_-cg

[ubertired]

whats the use of letting you hear my opinion when you have CLEARLY made up your mind on this issue and are ready to slam my opinion down to the best of your ability.

well, if you are FACTUALLY RIGHT, there is plenty for you to refute, and I would have nothing to say.

If you have NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL to actually backup your statements apart from praying, then obviously I am NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU.

It is one thing when you present facts and I refuse to acknowledge it; it is quite another when you simply make an "opinion".

[curious_boi]

I cannot see an angle to this crisis where Pastor Kong could be in the right, morally or legally. That's why my opinion is as such. No offense but saying stuff like, 'We shouldn't judge before we know the truth', or 'It's not really our business' isn't gonna help when there're so many reports, figures, numbers, statistics and facts out there.

Although of course I would love to wait and see what happens with this drama, but I honestly doubt any major turn of events will occur.

http://www.heartofgodchurch.org/aboutus.html

Entrepreneurship is a core value of this church

[xxx]

Been to their church twice...friends pulled me in...the overly warm reception is expected, but I didn't expect them to haunt me until months after. Relentless smses, calls and even the cell group leader talked to me personally to get me to join them for good. As a free-thinker I find it ludicrous that the youths couldn't see through the whole showmanship of Kong Hee. Throw in good music, pretty young people, rock concert-like environment, a hip culture and dangerously persuasive speeches and you gain devotees.

[Anderson]

Been to their church twice...friends pulled me in...the overly warm reception is expected, but I didn't expect them to haunt me until months after. Relentless smses, calls and even the cell group leader talked to me personally to get me to join them for good. As a free-thinker I find it ludicrous that the youths couldn't see through the whole showmanship of Kong Hee. Throw in good music, pretty young people, rock concert-like environment, a hip culture and dangerously persuasive speeches and you gain devotees.

But once you got hooked, you'll end up pay and pay.

Better still if pay by GIRO, then no one else will haunt you anymore.

They will say the more you pay, the more you will be blessed with fortune.

So if you can only afford $5.00, you will probably only get about $5.00 worth of blessing and fortune.

Thats why some really kiasu ones actually downgrade to smaller flats in order to give "until it hurts and tears roll down", hopefully to get a windfall.

But in the meantime, someone else is upgrading from HDB flat to luxurious penthouse.

[Shiroi_Ryuu]

That is pretty sucks to see that CHC is always using the same technique over the years, 10 years back is like that, until now still the same old thing.

And looking at Pastor Kong Hee (i still address as Pastor, bcos i respect him as a Pastor, as a normal human, pls lah!! I don't cheat my company money) how he reacts over the weekend.

He actually motivates the whole church to go haywire because of him.

Makes me wondering, is he really guilty as i read a story online.

To Argue or To be Silence

[hitex]

[Marineboy]

They should just call themselves "City Harvest Pte Ltd" and appoint KH as CEO = problem solved.

Why disguse yourself as a sheep, when u are actually a wolf?

Since so many ppl supported this wolf then might as well make it official.

Yep totally agree...however people want to avoid tax...its better to be under charities umbrella which is the case.

Our garmen usually quite careful where religion is involved as they can lose votes hehe

After 2 years ..i feel they have the enough evidence and are fully ready....i dont see the accused having much chance more so in ...i think you know the rest.

Then again lately i dont have very high regards where organised religion is concerned.

The world will be following this saga with interest i feel.

NKF n REnCi takes a back seat

All the best to those concerned.

Accountability is what most people want....then again...there are still so many things not accounted for .

$50million sounds big but can be relatively small when compared to billions right? :smokin:

Just my 2cents worth.

[jason]

Been to their church twice...friends pulled me in...the overly warm reception is expected, but I didn't expect them to haunt me until months after. Relentless smses, calls and even the cell group leader talked to me personally to get me to join them for good. As a free-thinker I find it ludicrous that the youths couldn't see through the whole showmanship of Kong Hee. Throw in good music, pretty young people, rock concert-like environment, a hip culture and dangerously persuasive speeches and you gain devotees.

Do they still haunt you before the saga happened ?

[bigis4me]

Just my two cents worth, I think there is many good things CHC have done and are still doing, How the leaders get their followers is something to think about.

And transparency of how offerings are used is important to each and everyone . The way KH speaks is as though he is building an army to overthrone not only Singapore but the whole world and only christians of CHC is best way out. All parents beware of what your kids do with their allowance as it is still you who give the allowance to your kids and not CHC.

[Guest Ironrod]

Just my two cents worth, I think there is many good things CHC have done and are still doing, How the leaders get their followers is something to think about.

And transparency of how offerings are used is important to each and everyone . The way KH speaks is as though he is building an army to overthrone not only Singapore but the whole world and only christians of CHC is best way out. All parents beware of what your kids do with their allowance as it is still you who give the allowance to your kids and not CHC.

Ermm think u post in a wrong place lar.....here got how many "parents" lol

[hitex]

miracles for sale , faith healing scam - 1hr 13min video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYjgeayfYPI&feature=related

[Bry]

miracles for sale , faith healing scam - 1hr 13min video

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYjgeayfYPI&feature=related

Derren Brown should be the pastor of a religion called "common sense" or "logical thinking". Been watching his videos; he is way way more of a good guy than even those who genuinely want to help but are deluded and cause more harm instead. James Randi is also a good guy who can't stand people getting hoodwinked or duped by unscrupulous but nonetheless intelligent people.

[glowingember]

miracles for sale , faith healing scam - 1hr 13min video

Thanks for putting this up.

[jason]

CHC is breeding a group of upcoming 33,000 exteremists. They are blinded by Kong Kee and one day something like JIM JONES scenario will happen if justice is not done.

[gstringuy26]

Just memorised the bible and if u r good looking, speaks fluent english, U r good to go to become a pastor! especially singaborean chinese who embrace Ang Moh blindly. But I guess U can't blame these super conmen, we ourselves as chinese has lost our very own identities as " Chinese decendents" nothing to do with angmoh in the bible! U can't find any faces that looks like a chinese?

[xiaob0y]

Pretext is he has been arrested.

However according to the law, Presumption of law apply so no matter what everyone thinks, he's innocent as of now.

just my 2 cents worth.

cheers

[ubertired]

Been to their church twice...friends pulled me in...the overly warm reception is expected, but I didn't expect them to haunt me until months after. Relentless smses, calls and even the cell group leader talked to me personally to get me to join them for good. As a free-thinker I find it ludicrous that the youths couldn't see through the whole showmanship of Kong Hee. Throw in good music, pretty young people, rock concert-like environment, a hip culture and dangerously persuasive speeches and you gain devotees.

Like hello...People listen to Justin bieber. Planking is a fad. How duh do you think today's youth ah?

[Seignolia]

This incident can be served as a reminder to all spiritual leaders to have integrity.

As for the CHC case, I've read several articles written by supporters, neutrals and detractors. It seems that there are so many biblical interpretations to the extent that they don't know which one is the most true one. Raised up by my Christian aunt (Catholic), I was taught that God will test our faith every moment of our lives. So I believe that this is a time of trial for CHC to testify their own preachings.

[bludragon]

I am no Christian but I chanced upon a comment that, by far, seems to be made by the most commonsensical Christian ever. All Christians should read this, although I do not support Christianity because, after all this commentor would probably deride homosexuality all the same.

http://sgforums.com/forums/4163/posts

I am a Christian and I've attended City Harvest Church for two periods in my life for a total of 2 to 2.5 years.

I initially attended it with my folks. We enjoyed the sermon and the clear teachings of the pastor and his fellow leaders. But things went downhill one Sunday morning when a leader took to the stage to plug Ho Yeow Sun's new album. The horrifying thing was how he chirpily used hard sell tactics to move the units. We were asked to buy more than one copy and pass them to our friends. If one were to buy 6 copies or some absurd number, that would entitle one to a free poster or t-shirt (something along those lines). What was most upsetting at that time, was the fact that he was using the pulpit to push the sales of the pastor's wife who was more interested in cutting pop albums than say attending church service. The posters from her new album were also plastered along the entrance and lobby of the building. There were no images of Jesus. No, instead, this singer's face, the pastor's wife, was all over the building. If that does not trigger alarm bells in the average church-goer, what will? That was the last week we attended CHC.

Kong Hee and Sun Ho - A celebrity culture

This leads me to ask this very important question. Who is worthy to be worshipped? Jesus? Or a man and his wife? Unfortunately, this question has not been addressed. Twitter has been a flurry with ultra-supportive tweets from young members (and some older ones), proclaiming their undying loyalty for their pastor and his wife. Some say that they believe in the duo, know their hearts, believe in their cause and have already declared them innocent and faultless. The Christian community, Christian leaders (within and outside of the church) and church members themselves should have questioned the culture of CHC - where the pastor and his wife have Fan Pages on Facebook, where their supporters, fans, devotees, express their undying love and support for the duo and what they do. Any pastor, any leader of a church should know that this is not the right type of church culture and it should NOT be encouraged. This should NOT be advocated. Never mind what the pastor has done and his successes. No pastor should have a Facebook fan page. I find that absurd. Didn't the bible say that we should have no idols? And that we are to have only one God? Why do the church members till this day pledge their undying support for their pastor and his wife when clearly their loyalty and devotion should be channeled to serving God? Why are they fighting fire with fire? Why are they risking life and limb to support a man and his wife? Why are they not declaring their love for God instead? How has this man and his wife managed to mesmerise these youths to the point of delirious and blind support, such that Reverends from other churches have pinpointed the matter of blind support as an issue, a problem and yet these kids, CHC cell group leaders, etc, continue to obsessively tweet their love for the man and his wife?

I can have respect for a leader. I can praise him for his work, but ultimately all glory goes to God. I don't see why I should dedicate myself to acting like his rabid fan for his good sermons and his community service. Instead, it would be way wiser to ask God for similar blessings and encourage everyone to learn from his good example but not necessarily put him on a pedestal that all begin to forget that he is only human. If anything, men can fall, men are imperfect and only God is perfect. This is commonsensical, logical and of course biblical. So why the 100% Faith in a Man? CHC members should ask themselves why they feel so much love for Kong Hee and his wife. What is the source of this love? Does it come from a healthy place? CHC members must realise that Kong Hee, his wife and their team are mere mortals, mere men, and can fall. If they love their leaders, they should be bold, correct, rebuke if necessary. They should be discerning and wise. A thinking individual who exercises the intellect that God has given him, is a wise man who is an asset to those around him.

Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning.

It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don't, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person.

"James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Jesus and the Apostles were very bold and rebuked and condemned evil. They even openly rebuked people in the church for doing evil, in order to strengthen the church. Rebuking a sinner, exposing corruption, correcting someone in love or disciplining ones children is not judging wrongfully. f so, Jesus and the Apostles who were our example to follow would have been in error.

Source:

truechristianity.com

To be an asset to any setting and situation we are in - we need to think critically. Decide when to accept, reject, ask, comply, argue, refuse, suggest and stand up for and against the actions of our fellow human beings. This applies to any context. Question your leaders. Your teacher, your boss at work, your colleagues, your most esteemed mentor, your gang leader, politicians, your prime minister, the United Nations panel, whoever they are, their ideas and actions are imperfect. No one but God is perfect. Full stop. With great power comes great responsibility - inserting this here for the young CHC members who might understand a quote from Spiderman. It is our job to make sure our leaders can do THEIR jobs well, efficiently, ethically.

The leaders of CHC might or might not be proven guilty. Nonetheless, they have crossed the lines of morality and ethics as church leaders, beacons of example, role models to their young congregation in the following ways:

1) Pressurising their members - students, youths especially - to purchase Sun Ho's albums. These students get their allowance from their parents, most have yet to work a day in their lives. Why does CHC's leaders find it reasonable and acceptable for their members' parents to fork over money for Sun Ho's music ambitions? I'm sure a good portion of the money went to doing real charity work. But what about the portion that didn't? Are we to close an eye to the siphoning of monies? God expects us to be good stewards of our money. This means that when we give, we must know where it will end up. So the hastag "mytrustisnotbreached" on Twitter just speaks of how misinformed their young members and leaders are, and how willing they are to continue to be duped if necessary. Members have tweeted that despite all of this, they would continue to give and give more. The issue we non-members and Christians from other churches, have is why they would willingly contribute to the music career of their pastor and his wife. Why they would stamp their approval on doctoring books, creative accounting, falsifying documents and dealing only in cash to throw auditors and the authorities of their scent? Does it mean to say that your wholehearted support and love Kong Hee, his wife and their team stands for corruption, cooking the books and deception/dishonesty? Do you mean to say that your leaders couldn't have handled the matter better? Could they not have been clearer about their intention with certain portions of the money given? Could they not have avoided selling her CDs during service? Could they not have pressured your young members to buy her CDs? Could your leaders not have given external bodies like the COC even a fragment of a chance to penalise them in any way? They are now facing 36 charges. CHC members, this is a wake up call. God does not allow this to happen for no reason. God does not stand for deception, vanity, consumerism and materialism.

2) Surely, your parents would not let you walk out of your house in skimpy, skin hugging attire. Christian parents, perhaps even more so. What about a church leader, a pastor who preaches from the bible? Is the body not a temple of God? Accepting your wife's wishes - to dance, gyrate and parade in front of the world as a Geisha (a Japanese hostess trained to entertain men with conversation, dance, and song), an angry girlfriend cohabiting with her boyfriend and creating music for clubbers to gyrate and dry hump in clubs across the States - not putting your foot down, and promoting her music, her work, her lifestyle to young impressionable minds at CHC is just a BIG NO-NO. IT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. Christians should not compromise in such a manner. I find it so sad that these young CHC members, some whom I know personally, do not see how their pastor and his wife are so very weak and so very wrong in this manner. Other pastors, other church leaders, the Christian community, the secular community have disapproved of this. Yet only CHC stands by their pastor's "choices" and his wife's lifestyle.

Materialism and Consumerism

Just a question - when should religious leaders say no to love gifts? Do you need that expensive high end tablet or can you just make do with the phone you own now? Do you NEED that? Do you need to stay in the most expensive housing project in Singapore when there are clearly better ways to spend your money? If you are truly doing God's work, I really don't think you'd find it wise to spend your money on an excessively expensive and overpriced car or condominium. Kong Hee is no king in the eyes of God. He is his servants. Yes, servants of God should be blessed. But we should always spend wisely and seek His counsel pertaining to such matters. Solomon for instance, used his riches to build God's temple.As Christians, we should try our hardest to avoid chasing the things of the world. The 5Cs apply to Singaporeans, but surely, as a church leader with such a "following" more judicious spending of his church money, his own monies, whatever finances he has access to, is only sound and morally and ethically right.

The second time I joined the church was for a shorter period. I joined a cell group and soon learned that 4 out of 5 of the leaders did not care for me. They cared for God yes. They were fervent in that manner yes. But unfortunately, they were not encouraged by their higher-ups to care in a way that mattered to the youth who were under them.

1) We were pressured into socialising after church. To go back to study, was discouraged. "Hang around and spend time, socialise with members of God" they would say. Apparently attending service is not enough and forcing a young member (group pressure) to socialise despite having a Chinese exam the next day, is godly.

2) You must attend service at least once a week - if not BE WARNED. Once, I decided to skip the morning service and not attend it with the cell group and to watch the online broadcast. My parents had given me their approval as a kid, to skip the service, rest and recuperate for the busy week ahead and spend time with God on my own. One of the cell leader's assistant called me to berate me in a very harsh manner. I needed to go she said, attend the afternoon service, she would go with me for it, she said. She was clearly overriding my parents' authority and making me FEAR her as a 15-year-old. Where do these cell-leaders get their gumption from? Who taught them to be such repressive, indoctrinated, uncaring, unfeeling, superficial and overbearing leaders? GOD IS LOVE. GOD DOES NOT INDUCE FEAR. GOD IS MERCIFUL. CHC members, if you are reading this and if you are guilty of this, stop this nonsense right now. Pray about it and let God lead you in your leadership of the youths under you. I'm pointing this out because thousands have been bullied, pressured, many have backslided because of the errant ways of your young leaders and the lack of wisdom by those over your young leaders. This needs to stop. This is the Church of God. Not the Church of Kong Hee and not the Church of Your Human Ways.

3) We were pressured into buying a church organiser for about $26-$29 if I remember correctly. All members of the cellgroup made a purchase, members were taught to frown upon others who did not make that purchase. I saved really hard for 3 weeks to get that kind of money with my paltry allowance. There was no other way for me to get my hands on that kind of money. I was a student in the midst of a busy school year, my parents are not rich, I've no older sibling and "godly" church members were forcing me to pay for a diary I would not use. I would pay $1 for a diary as a student - a simple notebook. But this church was forcing me to hand over several tens for a silly book that wasn't even the bible. In the end, I got my money back and returned the diary. That was the last I saw of those horrible, horrible people, who treated me as just a statistics to boost their cell group size.

City Harvest Church started out with the vision to plant God's word in the heart of non-believers. CHC represents Christianity on a mega-scale. Its leaders need to do its utmost to maintain the leadership/management's integrity. Its leaders need to set forth directives for its young leaders to exercise caution, love and grace with their members. Its leaders need to make stands - stand up against materialism, consumerism, fetishism, vanity, worldly pursuits and blind support for mere men. The CHC body needs to better represent itself - as it represents the Christian community, not only in Singapore, but all over the world. It also needs to re-invent itself and restore its image for the church itself has done A LOT OF GOOD. It needs to create a good image for itself, for its members and for God.

CHC should release a statement along the lines of this - to show the world and most importantly, what its young members should believe in.

1) CHC stands for good, honest accounting.

2) CHC stands for biblical principles.

3) CHC supports its leadership and would love for its members to pray them through this difficult period. That said, it no way condones any dishonesty whatsoever and aims to be judicious in spending members' contributions and is looking for ways to improve the system.

4) CHC will continue to do God's work according to the word.

I personally believe that CHC should end this Celebrity Culture thing that it has going on with Kong Hee, Sun Ho and its other leaders. Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. I really hope that the existing CHC leadership can be better examples and better leaders to its young congregation. Please tell them to stop blindly supporting Kong Hee and his wife on Twitter, Facebook and in their personal lives. Men are imperfect, accept that. Only God is perfect. No one is persecuting God. The lifestyles of Kong Hee, his wife and the leadership are being judged. And why not? They are imperfect. Let them be judged by the courts. Let the law take its due course. Detractors and supporters must realise that Kong Hee, Sun Ho and the team are IMPERFECT.

NO ONE IS PERSECUTING GOD or Godly lifestyles. Let's get that straight.

Thanks for bringing that out.

[curious_boi]

Has Kong Hee fled the country?

[joshboy]

She was never a Pastor, she has never been ordained as one.

When she started out in Taiwan, she was nicknamed the 音乐牧师 (Music Pastor) due to her affiliation to CHC, where she previously lead the Creative Department, and is *duh* Kong's wife. That clarification has been made many times in public. People don't go "Pastor and Mrs Kong", they'd address the couple as "Pastor Kong and Sun."

Am not a blind supporter, or an ignorant person. I believe in the upholding of justice, regardless what/how much good is done. What people feel about them is their business and we shouldn't judge them for it.

Plus, shouldn't we be some form of an example?

The public takes one AIDs carrier, or one publicly promiscuous and out gay man, and throw that stereotype on the entire community, don't we ask people to not rub it on all of us and not judge every single one of us due to the fault of one man? If it doesn't concern us, we shouldn't let it bother us as well.

Like cvbc1987 has said, "People honestly have nothing to do other than just ramble over and over when it's quite clear they didn't contribute to any part of the 24 million dollars." I think we should just lay it down.

I'm sure there are CHC members amongst us here. If there is a supposed "better time", this week should be the time to not cast the proverbial first stone, and embrace each other in the community. Pink Dot is about us uniting for a cause, not allow this one incident to tear us apart due to differences in opinions and angle of sight.

total BS. I was a city harvest member once.

http://ian.onthereddot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/image059-copy.jpg

Harvest times, leaders of the church often greeted her ON STAGE as Pastor Sun.

[Job Welch]

Sorry, but may I know what is the connection between Kong Hee and this forum, please?

[jason]

SUN HO is not dancing nowadays....must be very bored for her :twisted:

[pop24246]

It has been months since the city harvest scandal. suddenly the trail went cold. something is happening . do share your opinion on the issue

[Guest Geisha]

You want me to cook and wash,

You want me to scrub and mop,

But I'm sitting on the side of the bed

Contemplating should I send him to the cemetery rock

I'm sitting on the side of the bed

Contemplating should I send him to the cemetery rock.

[gstc82]

It's reported in ST"s year end issue that there will be a long drawn trail this year.