Discussion on Muscle Building, Weight Lost, Weight Gain, Gym Workout

[SuperSentai]

Hola ppl (:

 

1. Actually im wondering what is the importance of cardio to muscle building and achieving a lean muscular body? I have read articles that claim cardio is not as important and that it leads to muscle catabolism.

 

2. Recently, I have started doing treadmill-ing in the morning (b4 breakfast) and consumed whey before and after that. In the evening I will hit the gym with whey protein before and after. Am I taking too much whey? And I also consume a scoop of casein before going to bed.

 

Hope can get some input...Many thanks ^.^

Cardio:

http://seannal.com/articles/training/cardio-while-bulking.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/lose-fat-not-muscle-3-simple-steps.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/hiit-cardio-workouts.php

 

Whey/protein:

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/how-many-grams-of-protein-per-day.php

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/protein-myths-too-much-protein-bad.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-protein-vs-whole-foods.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/is-whey-protein-safe.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/how-much-whey-protein-should-i-take.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/when-to-take-whey-protein.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-protein-dangers.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-vs-casein-facts.php

 

 

When do you decide to go on a cut? 

 

I don't know whether should I continue to bulk or start cutting. I'm a natural skinny fat and I don't really like seeing my stomach cause it's quite fatty. =/ 

http://seannal.com/articles/training/skinny-fat-bulk-or-cut.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/hiit-cardio-workouts.php

 

[xydboy]

Hola ppl (:

 

1. Actually im wondering what is the importance of cardio to muscle building and achieving a lean muscular body? I have read articles that claim cardio is not as important and that it leads to muscle catabolism.

 

2. Recently, I have started doing treadmill-ing in the morning (b4 breakfast) and consumed whey before and after that. In the evening I will hit the gym with whey protein before and after. Am I taking too much whey? And I also consume a scoop of casein before going to bed.

 

Hope can get some input...Many thanks ^.^

I would love to answer your first question but due to time constraints I would get back to you later on it. As for the second point, the usual serving of whey I suppose would be 20g. Given that you take 1 scoop before and 1 after, it seems alright. but what I could suggest is that you save some money, consume a light meal before the workout if required and take the whey after. This would definitely help you save some cost. If my calculation isn't wrong, you would be consuming at least 60g of your supplements (20g whey before and after and 16-20g of casein), that's like 60g of protein supplemented, so what about your normal food intake? Whey has been shown to be good after workout as it contributes to increase muscle protein synthesis as conducted by Tipton and colleague study. The free availability of amino acid before the exercise would also be beneficial. 

[Steve5380]

I eat 6 eggs before bedtime. Lol

 

Cover yourself with very warm quilt during the night, and yo will have 6 chicks jumping out of your mouth at dawn.

[Steve5380]

Interesting thought but there are studies conducted on food consumption before sleep (30mins to 4 hours before sleep) using very 2,400kcal low carbohydrate meal (Afaghi, et. al., 2008) , 20g protein + 60g carbs recovery drink (Res, et. al., 2012) or a normal carb (33g carbs), whey (30g) and casein protein (30g). Results suggest that 1) consumption of low carb meal would increase the percentage of deep sleep. 2) protein ingested before sleep is effectively digested and absorbed. 3) night time consumption of whey, casein or carbs in hours close to sleep would elicit favourable effects on next morning metabolism as compared to a placebo used in the study. In terms of how protein is absorbed and used in the body during sleep, Bart et. al. (2008) conducted a study to analyse the protein digestion and absorption kinetics. It was found that when feeding as done when the person is sleeping, normal protein digestion and absorption kinetics was observed. 

 

This is useful information.  

 

My recommendation of not eating close to and during sleep time is based only on the operation of the stomach when it is full of food, which makes it release the gastric acids that can be so harmful if there is reflux.  We are designed to have food move down the body, and if we lay flat on the bed, especially lying on our right side, the flow can go backwards.  But it is known that food intake can make us sleepy, this is why 'siestas' are so attractive after a nice lunch...

 

If we are a competitive bodybuilder, we may get some advantages out of some night eating.  For the majority of us normal people,  the best is to have a light dinner not too late, and then eat again a good nutritious breakfast in the morning. The digestive system does not need to stop during sleep,  but the products of digestion keep moving quietly and slow through the small intestine and are ready to come out when we wake up, if we are lucky to be regular.

[Haheboi]

Definitely can do more. I think it might also be the rest intervals? how much are your rest intervals?

 

 

1min 30 sec to 2...

I'm so drained today -.-

[FirsTimer]

God is fair. Pretty boys with 10kgs muscle are cute tool

[OneBlanket4us]

Cardio:

http://seannal.com/articles/training/cardio-while-bulking.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/lose-fat-not-muscle-3-simple-steps.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/hiit-cardio-workouts.php

 

Whey/protein:

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/how-many-grams-of-protein-per-day.php

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/protein-myths-too-much-protein-bad.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-protein-vs-whole-foods.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/is-whey-protein-safe.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/how-much-whey-protein-should-i-take.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/when-to-take-whey-protein.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-protein-dangers.php

http://seannal.com/articles/supplementation/whey-vs-casein-facts.php

 

 

http://seannal.com/articles/training/skinny-fat-bulk-or-cut.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/hiit-cardio-workouts.php

Woah that is some good articles there Now i know how to spend my weekends liao...Thanks alot man

[OneBlanket4us]

I would love to answer your first question but due to time constraints I would get back to you later on it. As for the second point, the usual serving of whey I suppose would be 20g. Given that you take 1 scoop before and 1 after, it seems alright. but what I could suggest is that you save some money, consume a light meal before the workout if required and take the whey after. This would definitely help you save some cost. If my calculation isn't wrong, you would be consuming at least 60g of your supplements (20g whey before and after and 16-20g of casein), that's like 60g of protein supplemented, so what about your normal food intake? Whey has been shown to be good after workout as it contributes to increase muscle protein synthesis as conducted by Tipton and colleague study. The free availability of amino acid before the exercise would also be beneficial. 

Hermmm... I calculated that I take abt 96g of whey and 24g of casein on days i go gym and do cardio/HIIT. My body weight is about 171 pounds, so 1g of protein supplement per pound of bodyweight  should be ok right? @xydboy

[xydboy]

1min 30 sec to 2...

I'm so drained today -.-

You should have rested more. If you need more rest, just take them. Especially if you are pushing really high intensity weights and heading for strength component.

 

Hermmm... I calculated that I take abt 96g of whey and 24g of casein on days i go gym and do cardio/HIIT. My body weight is about 171 pounds, so 1g of protein supplement per pound of bodyweight  should be ok right? @xydboy

Firstly, we usually use kg instead of pounds, anyway given asian's size and given that most studies are conducted on an average of 80kg europeans who are taller than most asians, we would have met the required protein intake. Secondly, 1g of protein is based on the daily intake, nobody counts protein supplement per bodyweight. Average of 0.8g/kg to 1.2g/kg would be sufficient for a day. You have a weight of about 77kg, in terms of supplement you are already taking in 1.5g of protein (casein + whey) per bodyweight and what about your food? You should have cut down on the supplement and take more whole food. You are missing out on the good stuff out there. Apart from which, supplements aren't cheap. You have to understand that a poor diet supplemented is still a poor diet. If you want, just one scoop before and one scoop after would be more than sufficient, do not take 2 scoops per drink. Atherton et. al. concluded that there is a ceiling of 20-22g of protein per dose. The body will just use that 20-22g for muscle protein synthesis and the rest will just be passed out or used somewhere else. Its a pain to see how people consume whey protein this way, so expensive! =( Moreover taking so much protein will not make you the Arnold in the gym, you have to push yourself hard on the weights. Muscles grow due to stimulus and feeding, feeding alone cannot bring you far in terms of muscle protein synthesis.

[SuperSentai]

Atherton et. al. concluded that there is a ceiling of 20-22g of protein per dose. The body will just use that 20-22g for muscle protein synthesis and the rest will just be passed out or used somewhere else.

 

http://muscleandsportsscience.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-muscle-full-effect/

 

"The faulty conclusions aside, the setup of the whole study was dismal because the subjects reported in a fasted state (yet again) and were not given anything to eat that entire day EXCEPT for the 80g of protein divided in 8x10g, 4x20g or 2x40g doses. The number of problems associated with this is infinite. Again, the fasted state, as well as the hypocaloric conditions (320 kcal for a whole day ?) would seriously impede maximal signaling in ALL of the groups."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558471/

http://www.muscleforlife.com/the-truth-about-protein-absorption-how-often-you-should-eat-protein-to-build-muscle/

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/maximum-protein-intake.php

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/how-many-calories-gain-muscle.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/muscle-building-secret.php

Edited November 15, 2015 by SuperSentai

[xydboy]

http://muscleandsportsscience.com/is-there-such-a-thing-as-muscle-full-effect/

 

"The faulty conclusions aside, the setup of the whole study was dismal because the subjects reported in a fasted state (yet again) and were not given anything to eat that entire day EXCEPT for the 80g of protein divided in 8x10g, 4x20g or 2x40g doses. The number of problems associated with this is infinite. Again, the fasted state, as well as the hypocaloric conditions (320 kcal for a whole day ?) would seriously impede maximal signaling in ALL of the groups."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558471/

http://www.muscleforlife.com/the-truth-about-protein-absorption-how-often-you-should-eat-protein-to-build-muscle/

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/maximum-protein-intake.php

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/how-many-calories-gain-muscle.php

http://seannal.com/articles/training/muscle-building-secret.php

I challenge the first link. There are reasons why we do the study in fasted state. In fact in many nutrition studies, it has to be done in a fasted state, otherwise how do you ensure that what effects you observe are based on what you take in and not what other stuff the person ate hours before the study? Apart from which, most of these studies are done after a night of fast, where the last meal was maybe at around 10pm and then the participant remains fasted till the next morning when they report to the laboratory. Just like Aerta's study, yes, splitting the doses into smaller portions would be much more beneficial as compared to the huge about of bolus, in fact both studies do link up with one another building on the hypothesis that a 20g of protein stimulate the most muscle protein synthesis effect (Refer to Areta's study).

 

As for the links, do read the articles with caution. In many nutrition books when they talk about calories gain and loss, etc, it is with respect of energy expenditure. Nothing in the equation tells me that I am gaining muscle. They just say gain in weight. Not to confuse the terms. Muscle protein synthesis is not the same as gain in weight. You can refer to many nutrition textbooks, they will just use the terms gain in weight or weight loss nutrition, they will never dare say gain in muscle, because eating in surplus doesn't necessary result in gain in muscle. Otherwise obese kids would be very muscular.

[SuperSentai]

I challenge the first link. There are reasons why we do the study in fasted state. In fact in many nutrition studies, it has to be done in a fasted state, otherwise how do you ensure that what effects you observe are based on what you take in and not what other stuff the person ate hours before the study? Apart from which, most of these studies are done after a night of fast, where the last meal was maybe at around 10pm and then the participant remains fasted till the next morning when they report to the laboratory. Just like Aerta's study, yes, splitting the doses into smaller portions would be much more beneficial as compared to the huge about of bolus, in fact both studies do link up with one another building on the hypothesis that a 20g of protein stimulate the most muscle protein synthesis effect (Refer to Areta's study).

A fasted hypocaloric state will force the body to derive its energy needs from the whey protein, especially in a already fasted state, thus limiting its effect on protein synthesis, and even push the body into a catabolic state. The body will be more concerned with protein catabolism (survival) than protein synthesis in this state. They can start the study in fasted state, but give the participants protein, as well as carbohydrates and fats, during the course of the study, to mimic the usual caloric surplus a bodybuilder would usually experience in his daily life, and perform the study over a longer period. They can further split the participants into different groups, and give one group a calorie deficit of 500 calorie, one group at daily calorie maintenance level, and one group a calorie surplus of 500 calorie, if they want to observe the effects even better. And even better, split the group further and give them different protein sources, varying their total protein intake at the same time. This type of study better represents what a typical bodybuilder experiences, because no one will restrict their daily diet to just whey protein. Different diet composition affects digestion and absorption speed as well. This study only tells us plainly that there's no point consuming too much whey protein in one go, if you ONLY consume whey protein and nothing else everyday.

 

And by common sense of how protein digestion works, when you had chugged down that 20g of whey protein shake before/after gym, you are still digesting and absorbing that (for example) 5 eggs (= 30g of protein) you had for breakfast/lunch in your intestines.

 

 

2) Protein digestion is a very slow process.

Despite the fact that most “experts” will tell you that you need to consume a serving of protein every 3 hours throughout the day, protein digestion/absorption happens much more gradually than that.

It ranges from “slow digesting proteins” such as an egg (about 3 grams per hour), up to “fast digesting” proteins such as whey (8-10 grams per hour).

Given these digestion rates, having a set maximum protein intake limit per meal really makes no sense. For example, if you consumed just 30 grams of cooked egg protein in one meal, it would take a full 10 hours before that protein was fully assimilated by your body. Does that mean if you ate 30 grams of egg protein, you wouldn’t be able to eat any more protein for another 10 hours? Or that if you consumed 50 grams of whey, you’d have to wait 5-6 hours before you could eat again?

You can see where this is going.

 

And resistance exercises done correctly (= achieving progressive overload) + correct calorie surplus will definitely lead to gain in muscle, no?

1) If you don’t eat in a calorie surplus, you are NOT going to gain a significant amount of muscle.

2) If you don’t get stronger on your lifts in the gym over time , you are NOT going to gain a significant amount of muscle.

Edited November 15, 2015 by SuperSentai

[Steve5380]

And by common sense of how protein digestion works, when you had chugged down that 20g of whey protein shake before/after gym, you are still digesting and absorbing that (for example) 5 eggs (= 30g of protein) you had for breakfast/lunch in your intestines.

 

And resistance exercises done correctly (= achieving progressive overload) + correct calorie surplus will definitely lead to gain in muscle, no?

 

Precisely.  It is common sense to respect the complexity of our digestive processes and be weary of theories and experiments that are too simplistic. I have been thinking this from very long time ago when Weight Watchers started to make their pitch out of counting calories.  Same about this recent explosion of protein sources that promise the bodybuilder's heaven.  And yes, progressive overload with in between adequate rest and recovery periods plus feeding the body a nutritional surplus it can accept at its will is a sufficiently good formula for reaching the goals of physical fitness.

[Guest Asian]

I lift as heavy (and as many reps) as the Angmo guys in the gym, but somehow they are generally larger, and it's not bone structure cos I am comparing with the ones who are same height. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong or is it really a genetic difference?

[Steve5380]

I lift as heavy (and as many reps) as the Angmo guys in the gym, but somehow they are generally larger, and it's not bone structure cos I am comparing with the ones who are same height. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong or is it really a genetic difference?

 

I believe that there is a genetic difference, and it is in your favor.

 

For the same height, I find that Asians have narrower hips, waist, and maybe upper body too.  This make for a  more attractive figure (in my opinion). You may have the same strength but you are more compact.  If you were a woman, an argument could be made that wider is better when having children, but you are not going to have children.

Angmo hunks can easily become plump uncles, but I think that Asians can retain a good figure more easily (if they don't let a tummy come out that ruins it all).

[Guest Asian]

I believe that there is a genetic difference, and it is in your favor.

For the same height, I find that Asians have narrower hips, waist, and maybe upper body too. This make for a more attractive figure (in my opinion). You may have the same strength but you are more compact. If you were a woman, an argument could be made that wider is better when having children, but you are not going to have children.

Angmo hunks can easily become plump uncles, but I think that Asians can retain a good figure more easily (if they don't let a tummy come out that ruins it all).

Thanks for the encouraging words. But I'm also endo/meso, so the model body ideal is out for me. My waist now is 31" and my chest is 44". I'm never gonna get sub-30" waist again - last time was in NS.

[xydboy]

A fasted hypocaloric state will force the body to derive its energy needs from the whey protein, especially in a already fasted state, thus limiting its effect on protein synthesis, and even push the body into a catabolic state. The body will be more concerned with protein catabolism (survival) than protein synthesis in this state. They can start the study in fasted state, but give the participants protein, as well as carbohydrates and fats, during the course of the study, to mimic the usual caloric surplus a bodybuilder would usually experience in his daily life, and perform the study over a longer period. They can further split the participants into different groups, and give one group a calorie deficit of 500 calorie, one group at daily calorie maintenance level, and one group a calorie surplus of 500 calorie, if they want to observe the effects even better. And even better, split the group further and give them different protein sources, varying their total protein intake at the same time. This type of study better represents what a typical bodybuilder experiences, because no one will restrict their daily diet to just whey protein. Different diet composition affects digestion and absorption speed as well. This study only tells us plainly that there's no point consuming too much whey protein in one go, if you ONLY consume whey protein and nothing else everyday.

 

And by common sense of how protein digestion works, when you had chugged down that 20g of whey protein shake before/after gym, you are still digesting and absorbing that (for example) 5 eggs (= 30g of protein) you had for breakfast/lunch in your intestines.

 

 

And resistance exercises done correctly (= achieving progressive overload) + correct calorie surplus will definitely lead to gain in muscle, no?

You highlighted some good points, let me bring you through them bit by bit. Firstly, you have to know what you are doing. Let's go back to the original article of Areta's. The purpose as written is to "determine how the quantity and timing of protein ingestion after a single bout of resistance exercise influence the muscle anabolic response throughout the entire day." That's what they are interested in, nothing more nothing less. When we do research, we have a particular question in mind and we have to control the variables around it, especially in topics related to nutrition and exercise. If not you cannot pint point to a finding and say that A causes B. If Areta would to follow what you mentioned and do the usual the feeding, then given the amount of things consumed, how do you answer to the quantity of protein consumed? You also have to standardised the response to the item. If you have a mixture introduced before hand, the mixture might mask or accentuate any response that is brought about by the main intervention. We even go the extra mile to get them to do a dietary record. We had to track the diet record and ensure that everything is answered for 2 days before the actual study. Moreover I don't think protein catabolism would be that great after an overnight fast. What do I have to prove my point? If you look at this study (http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-9-40.pdf), the muscle protein synthesis rate measured after a bout of exercise can last up to 48hours. If catabolism was that great, it would have changed and drop the figures to negative but it didn't. Apart from which this study (http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/22330017) also looked at food taken in before sleep and found that there is good evidence of positive protein balance even during rest after taking a meal of 7.5hours apart from testing. So you can see, it is still in the positive figures as long as the person take in a balanced diet, or if the concern is in catabolism, just 20g of protein with sufficient amount of carbs before bed.

 

As for the chugging of whey, if you look at Atherton's paper, leucine profile demonstrated peak at 60mins and plasma EAA reached peak at approx that timing too. In individuals with no food in the stomach, and it showed peak profile at this timing, doesn't it relates to the fact that the amount of absorption of protein is approximately peaked at that time too? Otherwise how do you explain for the rise in the profiles?

 

http://seannal.com/articles/nutrition/how-many-calories-gain-muscle.php this link said ,"In order to build muscle, you must provide your body with a "calorie surplus" by consistently taking in more calories than you burn. This provides your body with the extra energy that is needed to synthesise new lean tissue. This is also known as the law of energy balance" So my question was this, nothing in the part of the article mentioned about exercise (You can search "exercise" and no where in the article talks about it. And also, nothing in the law of energy balance or the law of thermodynamics states that you specifically gain muscle from getting extra energy, so hence my concern is this, where did he derive this conclusion from? And if you look at the way he wrote that article, he equates calorie surplus with muscle gain. Which is why I mentioned, you take in extra energy, you don't necessary equate it with gaining muscle. If you work out yes I totally agree, but he didn't mention anything in that article and I find it misleading.

 

Just a side note, when we do amino acid tracing, we have to tag isotopes to the amino acids consumed. You give them food, the competition in absorption might result in the faulty tracer results that is analysed during the output. In the end you are just screwing yourself up and wasting time when that happens. Radio-isotopes for amino acids don't come cheap when you have to support many participants. End of the day, poor study design, no matter how good the data collection is, its still a flawed finding. Good job in raising the points, I welcome any more inputs. If I can't answer them, I will speak to my grad studies supervisor and get back to you. After all she did her post-doc under one of the leading researcher in muscle protein synthesis.

[SuperSentai]

As for the chugging of whey, if you look at Atherton's paper, leucine profile demonstrated peak at 60mins and plasma EAA reached peak at approx that timing too. In individuals with no food in the stomach, and it showed peak profile at this timing, doesn't it relates to the fact that the amount of absorption of protein is approximately peaked at that time too? Otherwise how do you explain for the rise in the profiles?

Atherton et. al. concluded that there is a ceiling of 20-22g of protein per dose. The body will just use that 20-22g for muscle protein synthesis and the rest will just be passed out or used somewhere else.

When I raised that "chugging of 20g of whey" example, I mean that, in a normal fed state, you would already be digesting protein and absorbing amino acids somewhere in your GI tract from your previous meals, this raises the protein level in the blood somewhat. When you consume 20g of whey for gym, you also absorb this 20g of protein, in addition to the protein from your breakfast/lunch. This will definitely raise the amount of protein in the blood to over the 20-22g of protein when all added together. So, conclusion is wait till you've shat out your meals before chugging down the whey protein to ensure that when the body absorb the 20g of whey protein, all of the 20g is fully utilized for muscle protein synthesis? This is what I meant by:

2) Protein digestion is a very slow process.

Despite the fact that most “experts” will tell you that you need to consume a serving of protein every 3 hours throughout the day, protein digestion/absorption happens much more gradually than that.

It ranges from “slow digesting proteins” such as an egg (about 3 grams per hour), up to “fast digesting” proteins such as whey (8-10 grams per hour). Given these digestion rates, having a set maximum protein intake limit per meal really makes no sense. For example, if you consumed just 30 grams of cooked egg protein in one meal, it would take a full 10 hours before that protein was fully assimilated by your body. Does that mean if you ate 30 grams of egg protein, you wouldn’t be able to eat any more protein for another 10 hours? Or that if you consumed 50 grams of whey, you’d have to wait 5-6 hours before you could eat again?

You can see where this is going.

 

 

 

 

http://seannal.com/a...gain-muscle.php this link said ,"In order to build muscle, you must provide your body with a "calorie surplus" by consistently taking in more calories than you burn. This provides your body with the extra energy that is needed to synthesise new lean tissue. This is also known as the law of energy balance" So my question was this, nothing in the part of the article mentioned about exercise (You can search "exercise" and no where in the article talks about it. And also, nothing in the law of energy balance or the law of thermodynamics states that you specifically gain muscle from getting extra energy, so hence my concern is this, where did he derive this conclusion from? And if you look at the way he wrote that article, he equates calorie surplus with muscle gain. Which is why I mentioned, you take in extra energy, you don't necessary equate it with gaining muscle. If you work out yes I totally agree, but he didn't mention anything in that article and I find it misleading.

"There are many smaller details that go into planning out a complete muscle building diet, but at the very heart of it all is one critical underlying factor: calorie intake.This is the central principle that forms the entire foundation of any properly structured eating plan, and every other piece of your diet is ultimately built upon it." This is the first sentence in the article. Obviously this article is centered around the diet of people who perform resistance exercise to increase muscle mass. There are already other articles by him such as this (http://seannal.com/articles/training/muscle-building-secret.php) that addresses the exercising part.

 

Apart from which this study (http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/22330017) also looked at food taken in before sleep and found that there is good evidence of positive protein balance even during rest after taking a meal of 7.5hours apart from testing. So you can see, it is still in the positive figures as long as the person take in a balanced diet, or if the concern is in catabolism, just 20g of protein with sufficient amount of carbs before bed.

I already see some differences between the studies. This one provided carbohydrate along with (whey?) protein post exercise. And I assume "dietary standardization" means they consumed the same food the whole day prior to exercise, as opposed to plain fasting.

Also, fasting for 10 hours, then doing resistance exercise after that? I wonder if the participants were able to perform the exercises to their optimum potential with progressive overload, seeing their glycogen stores would have fallen during the fast, even during sleep. It's like Muslims gymming at night after a day of Ramadan fasting. If the body don't/can't push during exercise and cause the "muscle damage" required for muscle repair and thus muscle protein synthesis, the body won't need so much protein as well. Ever tried gymming with hunger pangs in your stomach?

 

Let me slowly read up the other research paper haha. Very interesting.

Edited November 17, 2015 by SuperSentai

[xydboy]

When I raised that "chugging of 20g of whey" example, I mean that, in a normal fed state, you would already be digesting protein and absorbing amino acids somewhere in your GI tract from your previous meals, this raises the protein level in the blood somewhat. When you consume 20g of whey for gym, you also absorb this 20g of protein, in addition to the protein from your breakfast/lunch. This will definitely raise the amount of protein in the blood to over the 20-22g of protein when all added together. So, conclusion is wait till you've shat out your meals before chugging down the whey protein to ensure that when the body absorb the 20g of whey protein, all of the 20g is fully utilized for muscle protein synthesis? This is what I meant by:

 

 

 

 

"There are many smaller details that go into planning out a complete muscle building diet, but at the very heart of it all is one critical underlying factor: calorie intake.This is the central principle that forms the entire foundation of any properly structured eating plan, and every other piece of your diet is ultimately built upon it." This is the first sentence in the article. Obviously this article is centered around the diet of people who perform resistance exercise to increase muscle mass. There are already other articles by him such as this (http://seannal.com/articles/training/muscle-building-secret.php) that addresses the exercising part.

 

I already see some differences between the studies. This one provided carbohydrate along with (whey?) protein post exercise. And I assume "dietary standardization" means they consumed the same food the whole day prior to exercise, as opposed to plain fasting.

Also, fasting for 10 hours, then doing resistance exercise after that? I wonder if the participants were able to perform the exercises to their optimum potential with progressive overload, seeing their glycogen stores would have fallen during the fast, even during sleep. It's like Muslims gymming at night after a day of Ramadan fasting. If the body don't/can't push during exercise and cause the "muscle damage" required for muscle repair and thus muscle protein synthesis, the body won't need so much protein as well. Ever tried gymming with hunger pangs in your stomach?

 

Let me slowly read up the other research paper haha. Very interesting.

Firstly, we cannot assume that the article is meant for people who are performing exercise currently to increase muscle mass. You write an article, you should address the concern. Even if the article is meant for people who do resistance exercise, it is already the wrong concept where you link the laws of thermodynamics to strict muscle building. So you cannot smoke people just by putting a statement saying that "increasing calories = increase in muscle mass", because from the way the article is written, that is exactly what is put forth on the discussion table if you take it at face value.

 

Second, I think many people are not aware of the entire research papers and their scope. Every paper is trying to answer a different question. One of the hallmark study was by Moore et. al. 2009 (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/1/161.full.pdf), where he evaluated different doses of egg protein and found that 20g was the ideal dose to optimise maximal muscle protein synthesis. There were other studies along that also evaluated the different things such as mixed amino acids and whey protein concentrate. Next we have Atherton et. al. 2010. Given that 20g was optimal, he would want to find out to see if there is a ceiling in terms of muscle protein synthetic rate. There were some studies that suggest that if you feed the body a constant infusion of amino acids, somehow in presence of abundant amino acids, or hyperacidonemia, the muscle protein synthesis rate would drop to baseline after a period of time, suggesting that there is this "muscle full effect". Next came Areta et. al. 2013, where he build on what was observed previously. If there is a muscle full effect, then how long would it take before the muscle need to recapitulate the capacity to respond to provision of nutrients? as such it was found after the study that 3 hours is required. In Areta's study which is frequently cited by many people (without looking at the original article and study design), the protein used was whey protein isolate mixture with presence of carbs and fats together with protein.

 

Next, when we talk about muscle protein synthesis or myofribullar protein synthesis, we are speaking in terms of the anabolic signalling cascade that occur in the body, allowing muscles to be built. Nothing is mentioned on stopping people from taking extra protein within this time frame. What was concluded from the research is that in excess, there is just no increase in protein synthesis and there is a marked stimulation of leucine oxidation in the body. Does it mean that you cannot take extra protein? No, it just mean that the protein consumed would be broken down, energy can be used for other means. If we have a look at Moore et. al. 2009 study again, what was cleverly done was the usage of not just muscle protein synthesis rates, but also albumin protein synthesis. Albumin protein synthesis is not affected by exercise but solely dependent on feeding response. It has been found that albumin protein synthesis may serve as a means to "store" excess amino acid from diet until they are needed to be used. So you can see from the article, after a dose of more than 20, the albumin protein synthesis remains saturated, suggesting that there is a limit as to how much it can be stored. All these studies corroborated the notion that there is a limit as to how much protein can be used for synthesis and stored within the protein pool in the body, and the rest is just oxidised.

 

Whether you take an egg then go to the gym and then take whey, Areta's discussion highlighted this point,"However, it should be noted that our results apply to rapidly digested whey protein and mixed meal consumption of whole foods, or a slowly digested protein such a casein, would probably reduce the magnitude of plasma aminoacidaemia and subsequent muscle protein synthesis response but intuitively the relative effect of the pattern and timing of protein ingestion would probably remain. Indeed, our findings indicate that individuals who have the goal of maximally stimulating muscle anabolism may benefit from strategies that regularly isolate rapidly digested, high quality protein ingestion from other daily nutrient intakes."

 

If you were to ask me, based on what I have cited, if the pool of amino acid is filled, then whatever in excess will be put into oxidation and not into muscle protein synthesis. You can take your eggs before a workout which is good, it helps to give a steady state of amino acid availability during the workout. But closer to the exercise, you take in extra protein, it will fill up whatever "gaps" is present, after which, the excess will just go into oxidation. That is what is inferred from the evidence I mentioned above. As for working out in hunger, that's how studies are done. Do try and find me a study where they didn't subject the person to an overnight fast for a nutrition related study that investigates timing of ingestion and muscle protein synthesis, I would love to have a look at it. You have to control for any confounding variables otherwise you just cannot account for any observations to the variables in question, that's how research is. As for the study I mentioned, what the study did was just this: morning to evening, standardised meal (i believe is dependent on the caloric intake requirement), and then in the evening do resistance training, then followed by a recovery drink, and then before bed, ingest the radio-isotopes. Then the authors just measure the output. My idea to drive across this is that a meal (consist of protein and carbs) would be able to give this kind of scenario. On top of that, the other article, which address muscle protein synthesis and protein intake, I just use it to show that muscle protein synthesis can remain elevated for that duration. Both are answering different things but they drive the idea that an overnight fast will not lower muscle protein synthesis.

 

Let me know if you have more doubts, I will be glad to clarify those stuffs.

Edited November 17, 2015 by xydboy

[Guest Guest]

http://tinypineapple.com/a/stuff/ralph-lauren-romance-for-women.jpg

I've always been fascinated how to train the back muscles till the shoulder blades appear to protrude like that. What exercises?

[SuperSentai]

@xydboy, I noticed that the studies involved mainly only leg exercises. Would that have limited the amount of protein the body needs following the exercise, as opposed to a normal full body workout a typical bodybuilder experiences? Any studies done with full body resistance exercises? Also, was the level of growth hormone monitored in the studies? Since levels of growth hormones can influence the muscle protein synthesis.Was the rate of amino acid utilization monitored? Since when the body is absorbing the whey protein, the muscles are zapping up the absorbed amino acids at the same time, it may be inaccurate to just measure the protein in the blood. Any online copy of those research papers you quoted? (Areta, Atherton etc)

Edited November 17, 2015 by SuperSentai

[Steve5380]

http://tinypineapple.com/a/stuff/ralph-lauren-romance-for-women.jpg

I've always been fascinated how to train the back muscles till the shoulder blades appear to protrude like that. What exercises?

 

Shoulder blades?

I am much more fascinated by nice buns one wants bite into, result of plenty of leg exercises like lunges, squats, stiff legged deadlifts, etc.

[xydboy]

@xydboy, I noticed that the studies involved mainly only leg exercises. Would that have limited the amount of protein the body needs following the exercise, as opposed to a normal full body workout a typical bodybuilder experiences? Any studies done with full body resistance exercises? Also, was the level of growth hormone monitored in the studies? Since levels of growth hormones can influence the muscle protein synthesis.Was the rate of amino acid utilization monitored? Since when the body is absorbing the whey protein, the muscles are zapping up the absorbed amino acids at the same time, it may be inaccurate to just measure the protein in the blood. Any online copy of those research papers you quoted? (Areta, Atherton etc)

I would believe is that the studies mostly use leg because muscle biopsy are obtained after the exercise bout to look at the intramuscular leucine or amino acid content. if you do whole body workout, then you would need to collect muscle samples (muscles extracted using a syringe and needle with a diameter of 5mm) from all over the body. I don't think you would have enough people to step forward to do such a study. Amino acid utilisation was monitored. As for growth hormone, yes there are some studies that examined it. But most studies on muscle protein synthesis has been revolved around intracellular signalling, hence hormones might not be of something of a concern with regards to their scope. In fact I have attached a link below. This would be of an interest to you on that topic. I leave it to you to decide which stand to adopt. But from my perspective, more research is required to verify if growth hormone or testosterone are indeed required in stimulating muscle protein synthesis. With regards to the articles I have cited, you can google scholar those articles. It should be available. OMG you didn't read the articles and just cite what other people say without evaluating on your own?

 

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Stuart_Phillips/publication/258055839_Are_Acute_Post-Resistance_Exercise_Increases_in_Testosterone_Growth_Hormone_and_IGF-1_Necessary_to_Stimulate_Skeletal_Muscle_Anabolism_and_Hypertrophy/links/02e7e52a76d95f3f29000000.pdf) 

[Steve5380]

-----

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Stuart_Phillips/publication/258055839_Are_Acute_Post-Resistance_Exercise_Increases_in_Testosterone_Growth_Hormone_and_IGF-1_Necessary_to_Stimulate_Skeletal_Muscle_Anabolism_and_Hypertrophy/links/02e7e52a76d95f3f29000000.pdf) 

 

I read in the article: "Theaforementioned studies supporting the prevailing pers-pective demonstrate that acute endogenous increases inanabolic hormones, as well as their influence on skeletalmuscle receptors and resulting hypertrophic response,are critical to optimizing RE-induced adaptations and,thus, health and performance across the lifespan."

 

So the "blah, blah, blah" optimizes health and performance across the lifespan?  What lifespan?

How they conclude that the playing around with acute increases of hormones with the sole purpose of increasing muscle mass will optimize the health and lifespan of a person?  Since when larger muscles optimize any of these?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Steve5380

[SuperSentai]

 OMG you didn't read the articles and just cite what other people say without evaluating on your own?

I mostly just read their abstract on ncbi, and I'm also refering to other similar research papers done on this subject. And sometimes too many words in the research paper article so I speed read -.-"

 

As for growth hormone, yes there are some studies that examined it. But most studies on muscle protein synthesis has been revolved around intracellular signalling, hence hormones might not be of something of a concern with regards to their scope.

The reason I broached on growth hormones, is that many training advices recommend that to maximise muscular hypertrophy during gymming, rest periods between sets should be kept short to maximise the growth hormones released, like this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19691365):

When the training goal is muscular hypertrophy, the combination of moderate-intensity sets with short rest intervals of 30-60 seconds might be most effective due to greater acute levels of growth hormone during such workouts

It may seem a bit counter intuitive to exclude growth hormone from such studies, regardless of scope, since hormones can greatly affect cell signalling and gene activation also.

Edited November 18, 2015 by SuperSentai

[Choco]

Hahaha. Whoa. The level of knowledge here is too overwhelming. Sometimes bro science works too. Lol

[xydboy]

I read in the article: "Theaforementioned studies supporting the prevailing pers-pective demonstrate that acute endogenous increases inanabolic hormones, as well as their influence on skeletalmuscle receptors and resulting hypertrophic response,are critical to optimizing RE-induced adaptations and,thus, health and performance across the lifespan."

 

So the "blah, blah, blah" optimizes health and performance across the lifespan?  What lifespan?

How they conclude that the playing around with acute increases of hormones with the sole purpose of increasing muscle mass will optimize the health and lifespan of a person?  Since when larger muscles optimize any of these?

I think what the authors are trying to say is that with the support of a wide range of studies conducted on a wide range of subjects (age 17-70+ according to the main text and references), the "blah blah blah" optimises health and performance across this age range within those time frame that the experiment is conducted in.

 

I mostly just read their abstract on ncbi, and I'm also refering to other similar research papers done on this subject. And sometimes too many words in the research paper article so I speed read -.-"

 

The reason I broached on growth hormones, is that many training advices recommend that to maximise muscular hypertrophy during gymming, rest periods between sets should be kept short to maximise the growth hormones released, like this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19691365):

It may seem a bit counter intuitive to exclude growth hormone from such studies, regardless of scope, since hormones can greatly affect cell signalling and gene activation also.

Like I mentioned, it depends on what you are trying to answer in the research topic. In this study you cite, it is a training study at whole level organism. Meaning to say you observe hypertrophy at whole body level through indication of hormones. While other studies aim to find a link between nutrient provision and muscle growth. You cannot put too many unknown variables (nutrient provision, muscle growth, hormonal levels, reps/sets, rest intervals, etc) within a study. You have to answer part of a question at a time. If you fail to control certain variables, it will screw the results up. With regards to hormones and cell signalling, that was why I brought forth that article, it is still a huge debate on hormones vs cell signalling and their effects on muscle protein synthesis.

Edited November 19, 2015 by xydboy

[SuperSentai]

Like I mentioned, it depends on what you are trying to answer in the research topic. In this study you cite, it is a training study at whole level organism. Meaning to say you observe hypertrophy at whole body level through indication of hormones. While other studies aim to find a link between nutrient provision and muscle growth. You cannot put too many unknown variables (nutrient provision, muscle growth, hormonal levels, reps/sets, rest intervals, etc) within a study. You have to answer part of a question at a time. If you fail to control certain variables, it will screw the results up. With regards to hormones and cell signalling, that was why I brought forth that article, it is still a huge debate on hormones vs cell signalling and their effects on muscle protein synthesis.

 

Hmm yah, I feel more research needs to be done on protein ceiling effect before a solid conclusion (20-22g of protein) can be made that applies to all physiological states of the body. Just feel that it is not right to "conclude" something when not all aspects of muscle protein synthesis have been factored in.

[D920607]

any protein intro？，dunno choose which protein for mass gainer，i can let u c my body

[xydboy]

Hmm yah, I feel more research needs to be done on protein ceiling effect before a solid conclusion (20-22g of protein) can be made that applies to all physiological states of the body. Just feel that it is not right to "conclude" something when not all aspects of muscle protein synthesis have been factored in.

Actually if we were to extrapolate the study by Moore et. al. 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056590) to reality, if 20g is not the maximum dose, then through a feeding of 40g, you should be able to see more response. Then why is it we are not able to see more synthesis? Given that the study used albumin protein synthesis (which can only be affected through feeding), and subjects used were moderately trained individuals with a heavy bout of leg resistance exercise. The training protocol resembles the guidelines required by ACSM guidelines in exercise prescription. If there is no ceiling, then the albumin protein synthesis (which is affected by protein intake only), and muscle protein synthesis (which is influenced by exercise and protein intake), would not reflect a plateau. It is evident that the protein consumption and the effects of synthesis is shown through a dose response curve. Unlike the youths, there are also study using dose response relationship to establish the optimal dose for elderly (http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Stuart_Phillips/publication/221814059_Resistance_exercise_enhances_myofibrillar_protein_synthesis_with_graded_intakes_of_whey_protein_in_older_men/links/0912f5107c8b569608000000.pdf). If you do observe closely, the elderly does display some kind of muscle protein synthesis at 20g of protein provision, but the demands increases due to the blunted sensitivity of protein response in elderly. If there exist no ceiling or poor response in the youths, then when 40g is given to the youths, it should report similar findings as per the elderly. Hence through these conclusions, it can be proposed that there is a limit in terms of muscle protein synthesis and protein intake.

 

And to further corroborate, a study conducted (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/jphysiol.2009.177220/full) examined the relationship between amino acid provision, GH, testosterone, IGF-1, and also muscle protein synthesis. The participants were put through a low hormone exercise (where only a slight hormone level increase) and a high hormone (high volume exercise that spikes the hormone level training both arms and legs). These exercises have been validated to increase hormonal level during pilot trials. After which, they were given 25g of protein. What was found is that the rise in muscle protein synthesis was not brought about by the effects of the hormones. If hormones were critical in increment of muscle protein synthesis, then we should expect to see a difference in terms of magnitude of elevated muscle protein synthesis in the 2 protocols shown but both groups were not significantly different. 

 

Hope this would shed light to your concerns.

[Guest]

hey raymond so whats the interval between the 20-22g of protein?

[TennisSporty]

does anyone take CLA? I read there are side effects. can any kind souls advise?

Edited November 22, 2015 by TennisSporty

[caylus]

Hi all, 

 

Just want to check if my understanding and workout routines are fine. I am focusing on gaining muscle mass rather than strength training though I do increase my weights gradually.

 

1) Supersets are good for building muscles but not that good for strength training? Personally supersets works for me in gaining muscle mass.  

 

2) High reps are recommended for building muscles? My excercises have been mainly in the range of 8 - 15 reps for 4 sets. Rest time varies from 60s to 90s or more depending on how much I need it. I usually fatigue myself in the last two 2 sets.  

 

3) It is better to have good form and full range of motion? I try to go for full range of motion rather than force myself to lift heavier where my form is compromised and the range of motion is limited. This works well for me personally. 

[xydboy]

hey raymond so whats the interval between the 20-22g of protein?

Hi, if we were to follow Areta's paper, then the protocol of feeding conducted at 20g every 3 hours would yield better muscle protein synthesis outcomes after a bout of resistance exercise through a recovery period of 12 hours.

 

does anyone take CLA? I read there are side effects. can any kind souls advise?

http://examine.com/supplements/conjugated-linoleic-acid/ the support of the usage of CLA on reduction in fat mass is weak. Even if there is, it would take very very very very long and you would need to take it at very very high dose just to see that minimal effect. I suggest you save the money and use it to work out and eat healthily. Not really significant long term side effects were noted.

[Den Yuan]

I think I might have reached a plateau. Gained only 1kg in the last two months.

[brandon114716]

How do you guys plan your meals and know you've hit your daily calorie and macro? I know that calorie and protein are two of the most important stuff to look at. But without using an app, how do you estimate? I'm currently using My Fitness Pal and most of the meals there are western based food. I can find things like mixed rice (2 meat and 1 veg) only but I'm not sure whether is it accurate. I tried to put in stuff like pasta from hawker center or homemade pasta, I couldn't find the option for it. 

 

Is safe to say that as long as I'm not hungry throughout the day, I've hit my calorie and protein intake?

[Steve5380]

How do you guys plan your meals and know you've hit your daily calorie and macro? I know that calorie and protein are two of the most important stuff to look at. But without using an app, how do you estimate? I'm currently using My Fitness Pal and most of the meals there are western based food. I can find things like mixed rice (2 meat and 1 veg) only but I'm not sure whether is it accurate. I tried to put in stuff like pasta from hawker center or homemade pasta, I couldn't find the option for it. 

 

Is safe to say that as long as I'm not hungry throughout the day, I've hit my calorie and protein intake?

 

I am totally amazed and amused.

 

Since the beginning of civilizations human beings have been able to reach acceptable eating habits without using an app.  

They did not even think in terms of protein, carbohydrates and fats, and neither weighted themselves nor counted calories.

Is your grandmother a healthy person with decent figure?  Ask her how she does without app and macro and micro.

 

Nature has provided us with ways to regulate our food intake, one of which you mentioned (getting hungry) and another is to feel full.

You can read in this thread about how people agonize about how many grams of proteins for this and that,  yet one can have an optimum nutrition without ever weighting anything nor counting calories. I am one of these persons, and I have been within my optimum weight for decades, only fluctuating by a few pounds plus or minus around it.

 

It comes down to this:  

- Gain expertise in nutrition, what are the basic food types and which are the healthiest foods within each type.

- Read serious recommendations on how to plan meals and follow them  (many equally small meals during the day, balanced meals, etc)

- You should eat enough not to feel hungry and not as much as to feel bloated.  If you eat the right foods, the body will  itself regulate what it absorbs for optimum nutrition.

- You can take guidance from your daily weight, although this is not necessary, and adjust your nutrition accordingly (quantity and type of foods)

Edited November 24, 2015 by Steve5380

[versatile96]

how long does it take to have a nice round protruding chest? 

[CamperBoy]

how long does it take to have a nice round protruding chest?

3 weeks.

[xydboy]

I think I might have reached a plateau. Gained only 1kg in the last two months.

You got to eat more. Btw you have very unbalanced shoulders. One shoulder is more dominant than the other. You should do something about it. Work on your rhomboids, lats and traps, try to even both sides out.

[xydboy]

How do you guys plan your meals and know you've hit your daily calorie and macro? I know that calorie and protein are two of the most important stuff to look at. But without using an app, how do you estimate? I'm currently using My Fitness Pal and most of the meals there are western based food. I can find things like mixed rice (2 meat and 1 veg) only but I'm not sure whether is it accurate. I tried to put in stuff like pasta from hawker center or homemade pasta, I couldn't find the option for it. 

 

Is safe to say that as long as I'm not hungry throughout the day, I've hit my calorie and protein intake?

http://www.hpb.gov.sg/HOPPortal/health-article/HPBSUEXTAPP1_4021885

 

I think most people are not aware that Health Promotion Board have a site to look at the energy and nutrient composition of a food. Feel free to browse through it.

Edited November 24, 2015 by xydboy

[Steve5380]

how long does it take to have a nice round protruding chest? 

 

3 years.

[iwearthongs]

3 years.

Why take so long? Are you referring to those tall and skinny body type of people with small bones? I know a few of them who can never look muscular no matter how much they exercise.

[gstringuy26]

I think if your bone structure is small you can only go that far, there's limitation, you need body mass. Will be nice on those with wide chest! 

[Steve5380]

Why take so long? Are you referring to those tall and skinny body type of people with small bones? I know a few of them who can never look muscular no matter how much they exercise.

 

I was just responding to the absurdity of 3 weeks.  Body building takes a long time, but it happens with patience. 

I have never heard that muscularity is hindered by small bones.  

It is fortunate to have a slim narrow body.

As one ages, the body gets wider, and this is irreversible.

[xydboy]

Why take so long? Are you referring to those tall and skinny body type of people with small bones? I know a few of them who can never look muscular no matter how much they exercise.

And you infer that they cannot be muscular just because of one factor? LOL!

[marcoc]

I think anyone with proper training and nutrition is able to grow.

However building muscle naturally is a long process...

If you willing to invest the time and effort, you will learn along the way...

[darkflame]

I don't think the body frame will limit you to how much you can grow.

There are examples of guys who went from thin to muscular, but it is indeed long.

It can take years with consistent effort.

Those Instagram hotties didn't get fit in weeks.

Right now, I'm suffering a budget constraint on food which is causing me to build inefficiently.

Thankfully it's winter so I can gain easy access to the gym.

Totally packed in spring & summer.

Edited December 2, 2015 by darkflame

[CamperBoy]

My game plan right now to shed down my body fats. That alone will take months of dieting. Lost mass considerably (I was considered bulky then) but weight maintains. Demoralize when gym friends call you skinny and all that. Hahaga now even got to wear clothes one size smaller.

But stick to your plan. Don't care about what others think of you. I Realised at this point that diet is the most important in any weightlifting journey. No point carrying heavy weights but don't count your macros.

Visible abs! Here I come! Hahah

[Guest Guest]

My game plan right now to shed down my body fats. That alone will take months of dieting. Lost mass considerably (I was considered bulky then) but weight maintains. Demoralize when gym friends call you skinny and all that. Hahaga now even got to wear clothes one size smaller.

But stick to your plan. Don't care about what others think of you. I Realised at this point that diet is the most important in any weightlifting journey. No point carrying heavy weights but don't count your macros.

Visible abs! Here I come! Hahah

I'm also trying to lean out - in week 2 now. Not much progress, probably 1kg so far. I've not done any moderate intensity cardio, just HIIT. You fancy I'm doing it wrong?