Discussion on Muscle Building, Weight Lost, Weight Gain, Gym Workout

[fab]

Is it better and or easier to

 

1 Cut fat first build muscle later

 

2 Vv

 

3 do both tog

 

[xydboy]

1 hour ago, fab said:

Is it better and or easier to

 

1 Cut fat first build muscle later

 

2 Vv

 

3 do both tog

 

It depends..no hard and fast rule for this. Usually most bodybuilders practice the build first then cut later because you might lose some muscle when you cut, so when you build later, it's just going to put your cutting efforts to waste. its not easy to do the cutting as well.

Edited March 13, 2016 by xydboy

[heliumduck]

 

wah his form....
one, he is not performing it by standing up straight + he doesnt even need to squeeze his elbows in but can still maintian the form !!!

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, heliumduck said:

wah his form....
one, he is not performing it by standing up straight + he doesnt even need to squeeze his elbows in but can still maintian the form !!!

 

Yes, it looks ugly the way he bends over, but it may not take away from the effectiveness of the exercise.

If he does this because the weight is heavy, he could try to do it each arm separately, with less weight.

[xydboy]

1 hour ago, heliumduck said:

 

wah his form....
one, he is not performing it by standing up straight + he doesnt even need to squeeze his elbows in but can still maintian the form !!!

Triceps extension, it can be perform with the body upright or in a bend position, possibly due to the heavy weight. As the humerus adopt a slight flex position, the triceps activation does change a little given that the insertion of the triceps long head is attached to the scapula.

[Clickclock]

Hi everyone as I will be taking my internship at the Downtown area from the months of May to July, I would like to give a gym-club a try with my intern salary. I know this is a largely known thing, but may I know which is the gayest gym in Singapore? From what I am seeing it would be Fitness First and I'm planning to go there.

On top of that, what's the membership fee like? I'm aiming for a 3 month period membership thing. Heard there's a registration fee involved?

thank you so much!

[CamperBoy]

Do you guys think that it is good for gym goers to go for chiropracting sessions?

 

I feel like I need to be aligned lol

[yuukito]

I really need to lift , I jog and run occasionally but just not lifting , really have to do it , i find my strength is so weak , darn

[CamperBoy]

32 minutes ago, yuukito said:

I really need to lift , I jog and run occasionally but just not lifting , really have to do it , i find my strength is so weak , darn

 

nobody is born strong and muscular... just start and soon it will be a lifestyle.

[Steve5380]

 

3 hours ago, yuukito said:

I really need to lift , I jog and run occasionally but just not lifting , really have to do it , i find my strength is so weak , darn

 

Start soon, because building muscles is a long undertaking.

It may take you several years to reach an appreciable gain. Three years?  Five years?  Ten years?

But the years pass, and the older we get the more we need to work out with weights if we want to stay fit.

You can do it at home if you are smart. 

Learn everything you can from books, internet about doing it.

[xydboy]

On 3/21/2016 at 0:19 AM, Clickclock said:

Hi everyone as I will be taking my internship at the Downtown area from the months of May to July, I would like to give a gym-club a try with my intern salary. I know this is a largely known thing, but may I know which is the gayest gym in Singapore? From what I am seeing it would be Fitness First and I'm planning to go there.

On top of that, what's the membership fee like? I'm aiming for a 3 month period membership thing. Heard there's a registration fee involved?

thank you so much!

Just give a call to the gym. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a 3 month period membership. It's either a 6 or a 12 months period. Do check with them, cause they might have made changes to it once in a while. From my understanding, the shorter the term, the higher the fees. I used to sign for a 12 month package, and I have to pay like 155+ back then per month, whereas if I were to sign a 2 years package, the amount per month would be cheaper.

11 hours ago, CamperBoy said:

Do you guys think that it is good for gym goers to go for chiropracting sessions?

 

I feel like I need to be aligned lol

Not necessary though. Lots of hype going around in terms of chiropracter, but it's up to individual. I would say if there's nothing wrong, or if nothing is troubling you, there isn't a need to visit them. It's not going to be cheap, and think about it, how is one session going to help much? You would need to go for few sessions, and it's going to cost quite a huge amount. I know because I got my shoulder injured and I went to an osteopath (I believe both a chrio and an osteo would be similar in rates, I'm willing to be corrected if someone can bring up the figures), each time its a $120 out from my pocket.

3 hours ago, yuukito said:

I really need to lift , I jog and run occasionally but just not lifting , really have to do it , i find my strength is so weak , darn

Yes, please do so. It's important to do some form of resistance training. According to guidelines, major muscles groups need to be worked 2-3 times a week at a range of 60-80% of intensity for muscle strength/hypertrophy improvements.

[Clickclock]

@xydboy thanks for getting back to me! I don't quite understand why are the fees so un-definite, unlike the ones from the government hmm, will call them up soon.

[xydboy]

11 hours ago, Clickclock said:

@xydboy thanks for getting back to me! I don't quite understand why are the fees so un-definite, unlike the ones from the government hmm, will call them up soon.

Cause I believe in the clause for the "contract", there's something about fees changing. Government or activeSG gym as most people called it, they work on minimalist concept, where they just provide the bare necessities, in such commercial gyms, they tend to be more "higher end", thus fees review tend to be more common. Moreover the gym fees in part can be "changed", depending on how much the consultant wants a cut from. 

[yoyo74]

On 1/16/2016 at 0:21 AM, Summerbitch said:

Hey guys, I need your help! 

First of all, I used to be underweight till around 15years old then I start to gain weight and remained acceptable in terms of weight. When the rest of my body grow more fats and muscles became bigger, strangely my chest remained flat. Real flat. Tried to do push up but I gave up after a few months of no result.

 

Recently, I've gained so much weight that I'm developing beer belly(I don't drink) and yet my chest remained flat. Very very flat. What should I do? My tummy is so big while my chest is flat.

Normal pushup train more on your arm than your chest. Use my method of pushup will be useful for training chest. First of all at downward position, u use all your power to push very fast until like jumping with your hands. Your hands most probably did not touch the ground when your body is at the highest position. When at the highest position, let your body free fall until u almost hit the ground with your chest. Your hands must not apply strength to push when u go down. When your body come crashing down to around 1cm b4 u hit the floor, use your palm of your both hands to suddenly break the fall and u will feel a big strain on your chest. This way of jumping pushup is very useful to train your chest but must not overdo it. Last time i do 100 of this jumping pushup everyday until i feel intense pain from my chest and had to stop doing pushup for several weeks b4 i can recover. Nowadays i just do 40 jumping pushup follow by 10 diamond pushup daily to train chest area. As for tummy getting bigger, u will need to watch your diet and dont eat junk food.

[yoyo74]

On 1/30/2016 at 0:31 AM, Guest My 2016 resolution said:

Care to share what are the exercises that you guys do to maintain your chiseled abs? And how frequent do u guys do it?

And is there any effective exercise in burning those stubborn "spare tire"?

 

To maintain chiseled abs definately need to diet and eat the correct food. No amount of exercise is ever enough if u keep eating the wrong food. Lower abs fats aka "spare tire" is normally the first to come and the last to leave if u slim down.

[xydboy]

14 hours ago, yoyo74 said:

Normal pushup train more on your arm than your chest. Use my method of pushup will be useful for training chest. First of all at downward position, u use all your power to push very fast until like jumping with your hands. Your hands most probably did not touch the ground when your body is at the highest position. When at the highest position, let your body free fall until u almost hit the ground with your chest. Your hands must not apply strength to push when u go down. When your body come crashing down to around 1cm b4 u hit the floor, use your palm of your both hands to suddenly break the fall and u will feel a big strain on your chest. This way of jumping pushup is very useful to train your chest but must not overdo it. Last time i do 100 of this jumping pushup everyday until i feel intense pain from my chest and had to stop doing pushup for several weeks b4 i can recover. Nowadays i just do 40 jumping pushup follow by 10 diamond pushup daily to train chest area. As for tummy getting bigger, u will need to watch your diet and dont eat junk food.

Sounds like plyometric push ups to me..hmm..usually all sorts of push ups would train the chest, just that for push ups, the arms will fatigue first than the chest, possibly due to the size of the muscle. EMG studies showed that.

[Steve5380]

18 hours ago, yoyo74 said:

Normal pushup train more on your arm than your chest. Use my method of pushup will be useful for training chest. First of all at downward position, u use all your power to push very fast until like jumping with your hands. Your hands most probably did not touch the ground when your body is at the highest position. When at the highest position, let your body free fall until u almost hit the ground with your chest. Your hands must not apply strength to push when u go down. When your body come crashing down to around 1cm b4 u hit the floor, use your palm of your both hands to suddenly break the fall and u will feel a big strain on your chest. This way of jumping pushup is very useful to train your chest but must not overdo it. Last time i do 100 of this jumping pushup everyday until i feel intense pain from my chest and had to stop doing pushup for several weeks b4 i can recover. Nowadays i just do 40 jumping pushup follow by 10 diamond pushup daily to train chest area. As for tummy getting bigger, u will need to watch your diet and dont eat junk food.

 

Maybe what you describe is similar to this type of push-up where you impel your self so high that you have time to clap your hands before putting them back in position to take the body weight on the way down.  These are CHALLENGING, yesss...

 

But xydboy is right:  these are not the best exercises for the chest. Even if they put the same force on the arms,  the effect on the chest is quite different than when the reaction to this force comes from the bench against the back, which results in better isolation.  With the bench press, the force is also maintained along the whole rep of concentric and eccentric movements.

[yoyo74]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Maybe what you describe is similar to this type of push-up where you impel your self so high that you have time to clap your hands before putting them back in position to take the body weight on the way down.  These are CHALLENGING, yesss...

 

But xydboy is right:  these are not the best exercises for the chest. Even if they put the same force on the arms,  the effect on the chest is quite different than when the reaction to this force comes from the bench against the back, which results in better isolation.  With the bench press, the force is also maintained along the whole rep of concentric and eccentric movements.

I hardly goes to the gym, only once in a blue moon or due to the haze when i needed to run indoors. Cant think of any other exercise good for the chest without gym lol. I guess i will stick with pushups. I still feel a big strain to the chest when i throw myself all the way up and free fall and suddenly break at the lowest point.

[xydboy]

19 hours ago, yoyo74 said:

I hardly goes to the gym, only once in a blue moon or due to the haze when i needed to run indoors. Cant think of any other exercise good for the chest without gym lol. I guess i will stick with pushups. I still feel a big strain to the chest when i throw myself all the way up and free fall and suddenly break at the lowest point.

Plyometric push ups are good, but just be mindful on the stress it place on the shoulder joint.

[Riley5]

If you want to gain weight in less time then weight gainer shakes and cereal bars should be standard.

Easily get up to 5k a day just on these.

[xydboy]

2 hours ago, Riley5 said:

If you want to gain weight in less time then weight gainer shakes and cereal bars should be standard.

Easily get up to 5k a day just on these.

Yes but its expensive, normal food would be a cheaper and more tasty alternative IMO.

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, Riley5 said:

If you want to gain weight in less time then weight gainer shakes and cereal bars should be standard.

Easily get up to 5k a day just on these.

 

If you want to gain weight in less time, then you deserve whatever comes your way from abusing your body.

I cannot imagine one single reason for wanting to gain tremendous weight in a short time. 

I think it is better to leave this to the producers of beef or poultry before the animals are slaughtered.

 

Big industry has taken up the production of food replacements for specific objectives:  lose weight fast, gain weight fast.

There is also an increased awareness of the dangers of food that is over-processed.

Is there any food more processed than the energy bars, weight gainer shakes, energy drinks, high-protein stuff?

Granola bars are pushed as something healthy, but they are anything but that.  

 

Grocery stores in the US are now full of high-protein drinks: ensure, boost, carnation, and may other brands,

all advertised as replacement for normal meals. Who knows what is inside and how they are processed? 

And the cost of one little bottle of the stuff is higher than the cost of many eggs.

 

If you are smart, you want to go back to the traditional foods and combine them in such way that you get the nutrition that fits your life style and the objectives you have for your body.  This takes more study than reading the labels of fancy processed foods, but it is worth the effort.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Hi guys I need some advice. For starters, I had been gymming for about 7-8 months already in the intention of bulking up. My height is 1.67 

 

I started at a weight of ~43kg (no kidding lol) and it's the typical "skinny-fat" build. I'm at about ~54kg now, but my body fat is around 17% lulz. So should I bulk or start to cut/trim before bulking again.

 

i workout about 3-4 times per week with a typical 5x5 routine (full body). I am thinking of changing to a body split routine, either upper/lower split or the more specific chest,leg,arms,etc day. Would this be useful for my goals? Thanks!

[heliumduck]

On ‎23‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 7:39 PM, Guest Guest said:

Hi guys I need some advice. For starters, I had been gymming for about 7-8 months already in the intention of bulking up. My height is 1.67 

 

I started at a weight of ~43kg (no kidding lol) and it's the typical "skinny-fat" build. I'm at about ~54kg now, but my body fat is around 17% lulz. So should I bulk or start to cut/trim before bulking again.

 

i workout about 3-4 times per week with a typical 5x5 routine (full body). I am thinking of changing to a body split routine, either upper/lower split or the more specific chest,leg,arms,etc day. Would this be useful for my goals? Thanks!

WOAH 10 kg !
how did you do it ?

 

nothing wrong with splitting up the routine according to movement planes/ body parts/chest+tri, back+bi or including accessory work

they all help towards your goal, if you have stuck with something for so long, any change is good. higher volume, higher weight, different exercise combi... etc

[heliumduck]

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

 

too long to post the article, it comes in 10 chapters

but in all, diet first ! just check out the physique war guys !

[heliumduck]

 

 

wah he's form.... Hmmmmm
I wonder if I do that tooo

[Guest]

Odd thing - I cut my training days per week from 6 to 3, and have seen better gains than before. No change in diet. How come?

[fab]

1 hour ago, Guest said:

Odd thing - I cut my training days per week from 6 to 3, and have seen better gains than before. No change in diet. How come?

 

I believe your muscle need 2 to 3 days to recover n grow.

[xydboy]

On 5/2/2016 at 6:29 PM, heliumduck said:

WOAH 10 kg !
how did you do it ?

 

nothing wrong with splitting up the routine according to movement planes/ body parts/chest+tri, back+bi or including accessory work

they all help towards your goal, if you have stuck with something for so long, any change is good. higher volume, higher weight, different exercise combi... etc

Usually people who have less to begin with would have more room to grow, but after that it tapers down. Quite common...

On 5/2/2016 at 10:57 PM, heliumduck said:

 

 

wah he's form.... Hmmmmm
I wonder if I do that tooo

Haha, he works out like a beast! Very dedicated athlete.. His form is good. very good mobility in the hips and ankles.

4 hours ago, Guest said:

Odd thing - I cut my training days per week from 6 to 3, and have seen better gains than before. No change in diet. How come?

Possibly due to rest, but I think its more of the intensity that you push yourself to. Lots of variables, hard to pinpoint any with this little amount of info.

[heliumduck]

8 hours ago, xydboy said:

 

Haha, he works out like a beast! Very dedicated athlete.. His form is good. very good mobility in the hips and ankles.

 

 

so that's the right way to do it ah ?

[xydboy]

23 hours ago, heliumduck said:

 

so that's the right way to do it ah ?

There are good ways to squat and efficient ways to squat, so when you said right way, which are you referring to? =) The squat can get very technical, and to be able to utilise biomechanical efficiency, it will definitely be useful to help get to greater amount of load.

[heliumduck]

2 hours ago, xydboy said:

There are good ways to squat and efficient ways to squat, so when you said right way, which are you referring to? =) The squat can get very technical, and to be able to utilise biomechanical efficiency, it will definitely be useful to help get to greater amount of load.

 

means one should follow suit....

[heliumduck]

http://www.curejoy.com/content/squat-poop/

 

Curejoy Expert James Dudley Explains:

Experts have pointed out that the squatting position is more natural and can help avoid colon disease, constipation, hemorrhoids, pelvic floor issues and similar ailments. In fact in Ayurvedic traditions, elimination of poop is integral to one’s well-being and the squatting position is called as ‘malasana’ in yoga.

People can control their defecation, to some extent, by contracting or releasing the anal sphincter. But the muscle can’t maintain continence on its own. The body also relies on a bend between the rectum and the anus. When we’re standing up, the extent of this bend, called the anorectal angle, is about 90 degrees, which puts upward pressure on the rectum and keeps feces inside. In a squatting posture, the bend straightens out, like a kink ringed out of a garden hose, and defecation becomes easier.

Proponents of squatting argue that conventional toilets produce an anorectal angle that’s ill-suited for defecation. By squatting, they say, we can achieve ‘complete evacuation’ of the colon, ridding our bowels of disease-causing toxins. Squatting does provide health benefit in the form of hemorrhoid prevention.

Hemorrhoids may be brought on by pregnancy, obesity, and receiving anal sex. It affects as many as half of all Americans by age 50. But, the main cause of hemorrhoids is usually straining during bowel movement. Straining increases the pressure in your abdomen, causing the veins that line your anus to swell. In hemorrhoid patients, those veins stay swollen and sometimes bleed. In theory, squatting might stave off hemorrhoids by making defecation easier, reducing the need to strain and decreasing abdominal pressure

[azimuth]

On 02/05/2016 at 6:30 PM, heliumduck said:

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11518804/weight-loss-exercise-myth-burn-calories

 

too long to post the article, it comes in 10 chapters

but in all, diet first ! just check out the physique war guys !

 

 

Great article. I managed to finish reading it. Now I feel guilty for the two pieces of bread I ate 30 mins ago prior to bedtime. Lol.

[Escarus]

Any advice on training grip strength/wrist strength? I am able to do heavier deadlifts/barbell rows now but I find myself unable to maintain grip on the barbell for the full set.

[xsual]

On 22/03/2016 at 1:12 PM, CamperBoy said:

Do you guys think that it is good for gym goers to go for chiropracting sessions?

 

I feel like I need to be aligned lol

 

yeah i find it helps. i managed to ease some pains that came up during my lifts.

[Steve5380]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:57 AM, heliumduck said:

 

That rack has an interesting safety stop to deposit the bar (the plates) onto if one cannot do the lift.

I have never seen such device before.

But it seems that he should place it at least one notch higher. 

He already goes down so far,  it seems that he would have trouble going down further to deposit the weight on the device without the legs collapsing.

[Steve5380]

10 hours ago, heliumduck said:

http://www.curejoy.com/content/squat-poop/

 

 

 

 

One way of pooping in a more squat like position, which has indeed advantages, 

is to use a standard toilette and use a platform to elevate the feet.

[Kimochi]

 

 

[heliumduck]

 

 

[xydboy]

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

That rack has an interesting safety stop to deposit the bar (the plates) onto if one cannot do the lift.

I have never seen such device before.

But it seems that he should place it at least one notch higher. 

He already goes down so far,  it seems that he would have trouble going down further to deposit the weight on the device without the legs collapsing.

I believe he has the confidence to do it with minimal support from the rack, moreover he is only RPE 9 out of 10, there is still some energy left for support. The rack is found at NUS gym (i believe), and he takes part in national powerlifting competition with top few ranking in squats/deadlift, i'm sure he knows his stuff. Furthermore, he has been comfortable at that rack height (from the previous videos/pictures he posted).

[heliumduck]

3 minutes ago, xydboy said:

I believe he has the confidence to do it with minimal support from the rack, moreover he is only RPE 9 out of 10, there is still some energy left for support. The rack is found at NUS gym (i believe), and he takes part in national powerlifting competition with top few ranking in squats/deadlift, i'm sure he knows his stuff. Furthermore, he has been comfortable at that rack height (from the previous videos/pictures he posted).

 

he can do anything ! hahahaha

 

but his form, but back then knees forward... its quite obvious not sure usually is that how people do it

[xydboy]

24 minutes ago, heliumduck said:

 

he can do anything ! hahahaha

 

but his form, but back then knees forward... its quite obvious not sure usually is that how people do it

Like I mentioned, the squat can get very technical. Certain movements are done just to utilise the muscles more effectively or generate greater efficiency in movement. Should we learn it and be just like them? Perhaps, perhaps not. It takes years to perfect the movement. Do note that a normal squat that we do is different from a powerlifting squat. The bar position differs, the ending point differs, etc. As such, some of the mechanics that you observe might deviate from what you usually do, which I presume would be the normal squat. The most important question to ask is if you do this, does it allow you to squat more? Its similar to asking if you eat like Ian Thrope, does that make you a good swimmer just like he does..

Edited May 6, 2016 by xydboy

[heliumduck]

46 minutes ago, xydboy said:

Like I mentioned, the squat can get very technical. Certain movements are done just to utilise the muscles more effectively or generate greater efficiency in movement. Should we learn it and be just like them? Perhaps, perhaps not. It takes years to perfect the movement. Do note that a normal squat that we do is different from a powerlifting squat. The bar position differs, the ending point differs, etc. As such, some of the mechanics that you observe might deviate from what you usually do, which I presume would be the normal squat. The most important question to ask is if you do this, does it allow you to squat more? Its similar to asking if you eat like Ian Thrope, does that make you a good swimmer just like he does..

 

haha point noted si fu XYD

[xydboy]

19 hours ago, Escarus said:

Any advice on training grip strength/wrist strength? I am able to do heavier deadlifts/barbell rows now but I find myself unable to maintain grip on the barbell for the full set.

usually people would do dumbbell wrist flexors to train wrist strength, but I think it might not be that simple for your case. If you can't maintain the grip on the deadlift or barbell rows, it could mean that you are not resting the weight on the lats, instead the weight is maintained through your grip. Try rolling in your wrist a little when you lift, it will help to put the weight onto the lats. This is what weightlifters usually do when they perform their hang cleans. Its just not enough to use the wrist for support. If you still find weakness, then there is a possibility that something is inhibiting the activation of your lats (possibility injured teres minor/major) while performing the workout, or your lats are just not strong enough.

[Steve5380]

On 5/6/2016 at 8:52 AM, xydboy said:

I believe he has the confidence to do it with minimal support from the rack, moreover he is only RPE 9 out of 10, there is still some energy left for support. The rack is found at NUS gym (i believe), and he takes part in national powerlifting competition with top few ranking in squats/deadlift, i'm sure he knows his stuff. Furthermore, he has been comfortable at that rack height (from the previous videos/pictures he posted).

 

It is nice if he has confidence and he is comfortable, but the device is there regardless of confidence as a safety precaution.

If, God forbid, he suffers even a slight injury during a rep,  how will he get rid of the weight without having to go all the way up and make the injury worse?

He probably has never tried out the safety device by letting it hold the weight. It does not look like he could do it.

But there seems to be space left to put the device one or two notches higher. 

If the plates just slightly touch the device at his lowest point, this is not bad but it gives him a reference to be consistent.

[xydboy]

16 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

It is nice if he has confidence and he is comfortable, but the device is there regardless of confidence as a safety precaution.

If, God forbid, he suffers even a slight injury during a rep,  how will he get rid of the weight without having to go all the way up and make the injury worse?

He probably has never tried out the safety device by letting it hold the weight. It does not look like he could do it.

But there seems to be space left to put the device one or two notches higher. 

If the plates just slightly touch the device at his lowest point, this is not bad but it gives him a reference to be consistent.

Point noted, but I think he was able to handle the weight. If you were to look at the 23rd latest post (the one with the 190 on it), he lost one of the reps, the rack was able to catch it and a safe jump/roll was administered without compromising safety. In accordance to guidelines set forth by various institutions/organisations, this was an appropriate move as well. Likewise for olympic cleans, snatches or any power movements, not all movements are done within the rack. Nevertheless, safety cues and instructions are present such that injuries would not occur. The "front jump" or "throw bar back" movement are still legit moves that enables the individual to be safe during training. So as you can see, yes a safety catch would be good, but even without one or when the level is deemed insufficient, the person would still be able to execute the moves with safety precautions.

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, xydboy said:

 If you were to look at the 23rd latest post (the one with the 190 on it), he lost one of the reps, the rack was able to catch it ...

 

What you mean by "the 23rd latest post (the one with the 190 on it)" ?

[xydboy]

22 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

What you mean by "the 23rd latest post (the one with the 190 on it)" ?

Not sure if you can see this, but I was referring to this post: 

 

[Steve5380]

It was very wise that he put the stops on the rack once he tried the 170 kg.

But, again, he could have placed them one notch higher, and he could have deposited the weight rather than escaping under it.

The safe jump/roll may be safe, but still to fall on the knees hoping that the back clears the bar is not an ideal way to end a set.