Guest I'm Loving Sauna Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 There are many young guys too Yup some guys like to force I look fierce and gangster ah beng so they suck when I am totally asleep. Hi woah ... U can just lay there and let them suck? When is the most happening time to go? Like to try a local sauna after having so much fun at Alexandra and Hutong in Hong Kong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OpenSex Platform Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 I was there last night. I saw that they have brightened the light in the maze big room. As the result of which more were there have fun. See how improvement create response. The management must be reading this forum. Another suggestion is to put a tray of condoms and lub in the big room "during skin night". I said during skin is to help them tackle the cost issue. The biggest problem in Shogun still the sleeping issue. Shogun need to balance between late comer for sex and those who are there just to sleep. To counter the sleeping problem: Just don't issue the blankets and play louder or disco music. The music Shogun uses after midnight only encourage sleeping. IF the MANAGEMENT IS READING THIS: Now let's be realistic, business is to make money. You have to balance and choose if you want the business of those who come for sex, sleep or relax. Some operation to increase one will affect the other, like the one I suggest above. Don't give blankets after midnight. Well providing providing caps and lubs will not. Let's face it MOST / MAJORITY would like to come for sex OR were there because sex was there, even if one does not have sex. It is like going to disco but you dont dance, you just there to watch. However, if there is no DANCING (or not much) would you be in the disco? Furthermore, are there lots of dancing if there were no alcohol ?? Condom/lub is the alcohol in gay spa business. That is what I am pointing at, KEY ATTRIBUTE !!! SEX increase, patronage will increase too. Think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 I was there last night. I saw that they have brightened the light in the maze big room. As the result of which more were there have fun. See how improvement create response. The management must be reading this forum. Another suggestion is to put a tray of condoms and lub in the big room "during skin night". I said during skin is to help them tackle the cost issue. The biggest problem in Shogun still the sleeping issue. Shogun need to balance between late comer for sex and those who are there just to sleep. To counter the sleeping problem: Just don't issue the blankets and play louder or disco music. The music Shogun uses after midnight only encourage sleeping. IF the MANAGEMENT IS READING THIS: Now let's be realistic, business is to make money. You have to balance and choose if you want the business of those who come for sex, sleep or relax. Some operation to increase one will affect the other, like the one I suggest above. Don't give blankets after midnight. Well providing providing caps and lubs will not. Let's face it MOST / MAJORITY would like to come for sex OR were there because sex was there, even if one does not have sex. It is like going to disco but you dont dance, you just there to watch. However, if there is no DANCING (or not much) would you be in the disco? Furthermore, are there lots of dancing if there were no alcohol ?? Condom/lub is the alcohol in gay spa business. That is what I am pointing at, KEY ATTRIBUTE !!! SEX increase, patronage will increase too. Think about it You can cow peh till the Cows Come home. Nothing is going to change ESPECIALLY : 1. Free condoms Issues2. Broken mattress3. Sleeping Bangralas4. Bed bites Issues. The owner , Vincent care less about all these . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyan Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Long time never go to Shogun. Went on wed night. Guess is a normal night. Didn't see any good looking or hunky guys. But I was really horny and care less on the quality of people. Just want people to suck me and caress me. Had good fun. Shogun's crowd are just more proactive. A few guys can sense that I am on horny mood. Forced me all the way to a corner and play with me. Feels good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sleepers Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 I was there last night. I saw that they have brightened the light in the maze big room. As the result of which more were there have fun. See how improvement create response. The management must be reading this forum. Another suggestion is to put a tray of condoms and lub in the big room "during skin night". I said during skin is to help them tackle the cost issue. The biggest problem in Shogun still the sleeping issue. Shogun need to balance between late comer for sex and those who are there just to sleep. To counter the sleeping problem: Just don't issue the blankets and play louder or disco music. The music Shogun uses after midnight only encourage sleeping. IF the MANAGEMENT IS READING THIS: Now let's be realistic, business is to make money. You have to balance and choose if you want the business of those who come for sex, sleep or relax. Some operation to increase one will affect the other, like the one I suggest above. Don't give blankets after midnight. Well providing providing caps and lubs will not. Let's face it MOST / MAJORITY would like to come for sex OR were there because sex was there, even if one does not have sex. It is like going to disco but you dont dance, you just there to watch. However, if there is no DANCING (or not much) would you be in the disco? Furthermore, are there lots of dancing if there were no alcohol ?? Condom/lub is the alcohol in gay spa business. That is what I am pointing at, KEY ATTRIBUTE !!! SEX increase, patronage will increase too. Think about it Your logic is flawed. How often do you visit Shogun for SEX? Once a week? Those "sleepers" could be Shogun major source of midnight income you know? They visited shogun almost everyday for a good night sleep. Are you saying they have no rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsoursalty Posted December 14, 2014 Report Share Posted December 14, 2014 How is the crowd for tonight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zhi Jiang Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 How is the crowd for tonight?Why they switch off the tv on the 2nd floor so early?eI was there slightly after midnight, the whole place was quiet n dark already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturebtm@sk Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 Why they switch off the tv on the 2nd floor so early?eI was there slightly after midnight, the whole place was quiet n dark already...Its bedtime liao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanguy Posted December 15, 2014 Report Share Posted December 15, 2014 I have never been to shogun beforeany advice on how to get there and if there is a membership fee on top of the entrance fee?what sort of crowd does it attract33 chn 165 70... is this welcome by the crowd in shogun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovehandle Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 They were trying to install the TV , the tv is still not ok yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raiden Alpha Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Is it true that almost all the doors in shogun are spoiled or removed? A totally open concept sauna?Who is going to do it in front for everyone to see then?And the condom/lube issues still the same after all the feedback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovehandle Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Nonsense, RA, nothing is removed in shogunThis is sg, not japanLube and condom is still the same, it s at affordable pricingHope my feedback helps? Edited December 17, 2014 by lovehandle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raiden Alpha Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 Can I get some objective feedbacks instead of replies from shogun loyalists and their business affiliates here?No one is attacking shogun here I am just asking because I heard from people saying their doors are spoiled and removed.So I need to verify first before I go down otherwise I would made a waste trip as there is no privacy if I want to visit shogun with a date.And regarding the lube and conform issues I feel I did no wrong in asking if they have it available because a good sauna enterprise practise good social responsibilities in cutting down on aids contraction in their premises.I already got the answer I need in this regard by your admission thanks.So still no change lah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neh Neh Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 RA. Some cubicles can be locked but small and mattress is on the floor no bed there. Most horny guys, 仙姑 and bisex daddies would do it openly 就地征法. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neh Neh Posted December 16, 2014 Report Share Posted December 16, 2014 One horny day, i was model posing in the dark maze. I overheard a suckee exclaimed in excitement "too many cocks... too many cocks..." ^^ haha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2014 Report Share Posted December 17, 2014 Am i the only one who thinks the locker area is a little too bright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Am i the only one who thinks the locker area is a little too bright? No, I think it is bright too.Make it dimmer a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 22, 2014 Report Share Posted December 22, 2014 Worst still, there a CCTV at the locker. Was there for the first time last Thursday. Spent a sleepless night as the next door was like a hooker stall where the bottom kept got banged by several tops continuously. Overall, not too bad, the people are not too pushy but I hope the visitors keep rinsing their mouth every now and then. Everyone loves fresh breathe right? It's definitely a turn on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Went to Shogun last night.after long time...pleasantly surprised to see lot of improvement. Cabins were clean and maintain,.. crowd also ok, not too bad ; in fact 2 -3 hunks around! I got to bang a Fking Hot Indian guy..unbelievable that I could get this kind treat in Shogun!! I thought this place only had tired, old uncles just wanting to sleep. Will surely go again.. anyone know what is best day in week or weekend to get good crowd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydontay Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 if the cooridor path could be alittle brighter, locker area a little dimmer, it would be nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbtm Posted December 23, 2014 Report Share Posted December 23, 2014 Always follow this forum and am always still puzzled on whether to go to shogun or not. First is the fear of being seen by someone familiar, especially since in singapore we're all discreet. Second is the cleanliness issue that keeps popping up always. So not sure what to think, whether to go and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve5380 Posted December 24, 2014 Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 Always follow this forum and am always still puzzled on whether to go to shogun or not. First is the fear of being seen by someone familiar, especially since in singapore we're all discreet. Second is the cleanliness issue that keeps popping up always. So not sure what to think, whether to go and all that. subbtm, that fear of being seen by someone familiar is so unnecessarily damaging! In the improbable case someone familiar sees you, he is probably afraid of the same, so he will keep quiet. And if not, you should feel perfectly justified to lie like a poker player and claim total ignorance of the place you were seen, never been there, must have been one of the oh so many that look exactly like you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 24, 2014 Report Share Posted December 24, 2014 if the cooridor path could be alittle brighter, locker area a little dimmer, it would be nice one man's meat is one mans poison, there are customers of shogun who wants exactly opposite of what you want, they want a locker area that is brighter so that they can check out guys and their equipment when they are at the changing room area, they are also dim eyed , so low light makes them hard to see things in their locker, whereas they want the corridor path and maze area dark and dimly lit,because they are born ugly, so they want to remain in the shadows and grab anything that passes their way , and like rock fish, swallow any passing prey with one gulp. you need to know there are many other customers of shogun, they may not want what you want. For me.I am super adaptable, i can fit in to any lighting conditions, I am neither ugly nor dim eyed, and i am hot property, but I dont have sex indiscriminately, haha, but i have ever brought my own source of light at the dark areas of local saunas, and i am not shy of brightly lit locker areas, I dont particularly feel vulnerable when other lusty men check my body and equipment out . LOL.Let them see and salivate, and drool.My tool if for you to drool over. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenas Posted December 26, 2014 Report Share Posted December 26, 2014 hello...aaaa...what trouble?....... hmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_M Posted December 26, 2014 Report Share Posted December 26, 2014 i went there yesterday. sudden horny....bathe in the open concept shower...see kuku bird... hmmm.....saw a cutie guy bath...he purposely bathe right in front of me ....caressing his body...i do not have the courage to bathe together with him.....it's i do not know how to grasp the opportunity..... wondering if he's here...? if yes.....mind to make friend? This IS what he meant, by you getting into trouble..... Please go to Missed connection in the Personal to post your ad. =============== Please do not post any ad in the main forum meant for discussion. This is friendly warning by the mod. The next ad posted in the main forum will get you a warning point. If you are not sure why you are getting this message go read the rules http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=67&p=410979 Regards GM Quote http://www.facebook.com/gachimuchi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CuriousKon Posted December 26, 2014 Report Share Posted December 26, 2014 Hello all. I am actually tempted to try to go to Shogun.I never tried or attempted such things before, and nobody knows. Is it safe? Especially from STDs or the such?Any precautions I should take?What should I know before hand? Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaze Posted December 26, 2014 Report Share Posted December 26, 2014 Hello all. I am actually tempted to try to go to Shogun.I never tried or attempted such things before, and nobody knows. Is it safe? Especially from STDs or the such?Any precautions I should take?What should I know before hand?e Thank you all! if its your first time going, its best that you find another person you trust to go with you and show you around. my experience isnt an accurate one cuz i've only went to shogun once. i find the guys there are generally more aggressive in hunting and its not very clean. safe or not, its the same everywhere in my opinion. nobody knows who are std positive over there. if you really want safe, then the only way is monogamous rs.no much precautions to take. just know you can choose whether u want or dont want to engage in fun with another guy. so dont let any1 force themselves upon you. if you are having fun, always use condom, failure to do so, its your risk.you should prolly know beforehand that since its a gay sauna, you are bound to be groped and touched in the dark maze. so if you dont like guys touching u, u best not go at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_M Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Anyone going at around 5?Please do not post any ad in the main forum meant for discussion. This is friendly warning by the mod. The next ad posted in the main forum will get you a warning point. If you are not sure why you are getting this message go read the rules http://www.blowingwi...pic=67&p=410979 Regards GM Quote http://www.facebook.com/gachimuchi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve5380 Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Hello all. I am actually tempted to try to go to Shogun.I never tried or attempted such things before, and nobody knows. Is it safe? Especially from STDs or the such?Any precautions I should take?What should I know before hand? Thank you all! Shogun is not different from any other gay saunas.Gay saunas are quite safe, compared with other ways to find sex.Important to know is that everything done there has to be consensual.- One cannot force anybody into anything.- You cannot be forced if you don't let yourself. One should go, for obvious reasons, to saunas that are busy, and with others around no one will risk forcing someone who resists because he will be thrown out. The risk for contracting STDs in gay saunas is about the same as for sexual contacts in any other way. Even people who are very familiar to us can have STDs (no one will tell). And if you go to gay saunas, you will find that people there are exactly like you, and they have the same right to wonder who you might be. Be confident that people frequenting gay saunas are not a subgroup of sleazy individuals, but mostly people who for valid reasons choose this way to satisfy their sexual needs. So you can be in control at all times, and you simply do what others do there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Shogun is not different from any other gay saunas.Gay saunas are quite safe, compared with other ways to find sex.Important to know is that everything done there has to be consensual.- One cannot force anybody into anything.- You cannot be forced if you don't let yourself. One should go, for obvious reasons, to saunas that are busy, and with others around no one will risk forcing someone who resists because he will be thrown out. The risk for contracting STDs in gay saunas is about the same as for sexual contacts in any other way. Even people who are very familiar to us can have STDs (no one will tell). And if you go to gay saunas, you will find that people there are exactly like you, and they have the same right to wonder who you might be. Be confident that people frequenting gay saunas are not a subgroup of sleazy individuals, but mostly people who for valid reasons choose this way to satisfy their sexual needs. So you can be in control at all times, and you simply do what others do there. However, prevention is better than cure. Anyway, have a fun fun fun New Year 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_M Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 This... this is an interesting development... for the 'desirables' to move away from Cruise Club and start patronizing the places of the 'undesirables'... therefore making these places 'desirable'. What makes a place 'desirable'? In my judgement, it is the presence of 'desirable' people. If all the young and beautiful flock to Shogun, next time I'm in SG I will go straight to Shogun without a second thought. The same could happen with Ten Men. If the hunks and twinks start flocking to Ten Mens, this could restore the old glory of Absolute. How could Ten Mens avoid this? By charging twice the 18 to 24 year olds and giving free entry to the over 40? This doesn't make sense. And I don't think the regulars of Shogun and Ten Mens would mind if the young crowd comes in and takes over. Just the opposite, I imagine. The good name and appeal of a gay sauna is a very unstable equilibrium, and could change at any time. If the 'desirables' move elsewhere, it soon becomes undesirable. This is indeed good news for Shogun. Their charges remain at $ 12 and have gain extra patronage of migration customers from Cruise Club with Cruise Clubs new regulations : 1. Revisit Pass - cannot be used on Sat.2. Revisit Pass - only Mon to Thurs , and only before 5pm and Must not be an Event Day. Cruise Club Between Mon - Thurs, 3 days are event days, leaving only Tuesday3. Valid on for 1 month4. Increase in Entry rates to $23 and $ 28 This makes Shogun laughing all the way to the banks.... If Shogun is more positive and customer orientated to work on the following : 1. Broken mats be replaced2. Offer free access to condoms and lub3. Disinfect the place now and then to avoid BEG BUGS issues Shogun will win over Cruise Club, over the ignorance and complacency of customers complaints, and the scamming of Jacuzzi and steam room " UNDER MAINTENACE for MONTHS " as well as cleaning hygiene issues, that they did not upkeep the place. We are 6 Cruise Club Cadets. The above was true. 6 of us decided to visit Shogun yesterday and was indeed very impressed with the turn out, after all the new rules by Cruise Club. Most important there is only 1 statue ( wearing a chain ) keeps standing there, which is the trademark of Cruise. Anyway, most of the crowd ignored him. My friends even deliberately stepped on his toes and another pushed him away, as he tried to touch my friend. We are 6 cadets from Cruise. Yes it was true...since CC changes its prices,. tming and so many stupid restrictrions on re-visit pass as well as the hygiene issues, cleanliness, steam room and jaccuzzi issues, 6 of us decide to avoid the statues and went Shogun last night. All was fine except one obvious statue that was brought over to stand at Shogun like a piece of white elephant. All was great fun overallMode Note :1. The above few posts are posted by the same guest with with the same IP.2. The same person also posted in Cruise Club discussion3. He is also behind the post in Ten Men's discussionReader's discretion is advised Quote http://www.facebook.com/gachimuchi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 What's going on here and over there TMC? Is it the same person with the same IP here and in TMC thread? Here, praising Shogun and Thumbing down CC Over there, putting down TMC. So this person is pro Shogun but anti CC and TMC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbtm Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 How is shogun on a sunday night after 10.30? Anyone been there during that time and day before? Worth going? It has to be quiet enough but not too quiet and there shouldn't be too many sleepers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 What's going on here and over there TMC?Is it the same person with the same IP here and in TMC thread?Here, praising Shogun and Thumbing down CCOver there, putting down TMC.So this person is pro Shogun but anti CC and TMC? Don't worry about him.He is trying to get attention.If we do pay so much attention, he will climb further to make havoc.If we ignore him, he will be gone by then. Here we are happy with our lives and fun.Today tomorrow and the future are always wonderful with blue sky.We simply love out lives to enjoy ourselves.Don't worry be HAPPY. Ok, folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Maybe is the boss of shogun desperate to get business.Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilaemina Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just saw someone having raw sex in the open.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinkikids Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 How is the guys you sawin the open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neh Neh Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Just saw someone having raw sex in the open....有洗眼睛吗? 小心生针眼 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbtm Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 My virgin visit to Shogun was surprisingly pleasant. Sucked about 5 guys, had 1 fuck me (with condom of course) and 2 came on me. Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnsontan Posted January 9, 2015 Report Share Posted January 9, 2015 Where to find the glory holes Huh ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetish4briefs Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 Saw that thursday's theme is G-men in underwear, trunks or no wear. Personally got a trunks fetish, but I wonder how is it like and how many people will be in their trunks? Is the theme whole day? Anyone has any experience care to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den Yuan Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 Yes, Shogun is very horny! I've been there twice last year. gamcubmelb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seekachub Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 How's their day crowd? Feel like going Quote Treat people with respect to earn respect from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbtm Posted February 5, 2015 Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Any idea what is the crowd like on a thurs late night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovehandle Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Can someone or any seniors/fans of shogun tell me why did Shogun lock up some areas and i thought we are badly in need of extra rooms?? They built a new structure at the upper tv floor but not sure why did they lock up some parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhtang Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Can someone or any seniors/fans of shogun tell me why did Shogun lock up some areas and i thought we are badly in need of extra rooms?? They built a new structure at the upper tv floor but not sure why did they lock up some parts The last time I was there, it was skin night, and some parts in the upper floor in Shogun was locked up. I asked one of the people who worked there about the locked area, to which he replied that it was locked only for the naked period, after which it would be re-opened. An indeed, after a while the locked area was reopened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovehandle Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 but i dont see the logic at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhtang Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 but i dont see the logic at all... Maybe it is to force the patrons to mingle. I don't know, I am just guessing. Like you, I also do not see the logic behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passinthenight Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I'm so glad you guys brought this up. It didn't make any sense to me either. Rearranging the deck chairs for no reason had me beat. Nothing achieved and I felt uncomfortable. The only conclusion is that they think they are making things more exciting & less boring by changing something for the sake of it. To me, just confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Powerbtm Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 I WAS a fan. Now spend most of the time in TMC. Why? The level of hygiene is getting rather pathetic to put it politely. There was so much potential in the gazebo outdoors but what did they do? Replaced all the pool deck chairs for stiff plastic ones. Most uncomfortable and ergonomically unsuitable for any intimacies. And worst of all - the mattress in the gazebo are all cracked and torn. There is a strong body odour smell, OMG when was the last time they even wipe that place. It makes not sense - making those questionable changes in the upper TV room - and they cannot even do a simple (and low cost fix) for the gazebo . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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