Petition: Make Deathbed Conversions A Punishable Criminal Offence In Singapore

[Guest imseeker]

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/antiuc

For decades, they have been getting away with it. Hordes of religious fanatics descend upon the weak, senile, silent and dying; groping for a coerced conversion through squeeze of a hand, nod of a head or consent interpreted from silent bewilderment. Some went so far as to threaten them with denial of care and provision. Have respect for a person's lifelong faith. A vulnerable person shouldn't be subjected to fear, coercion and aggression during his or her final days.

Please support this petition to make deathbed conversions a punishable offense. Share it with your loved ones, family and friends.

[superflawless]

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/antiuc

For decades, they have been getting away with it. Hordes of religious fanatics descend upon the weak, senile, silent and dying; groping for a coerced conversion through squeeze of a hand, nod of a head or consent interpreted from silent bewilderment. Some went so far as to threaten them with denial of care and provision. Have respect for a person's lifelong faith. A vulnerable person shouldn't be subjected to fear, coercion and aggression during his or her final days.

Please support this petition to make deathbed conversions a punishable offense. Share it with your loved ones, family and friends.

Yes, I know of a girlfriend (ex-classmate) who is a fervent Hallelujah worshipper. Her father was a Buddhist. She forced him to convert on his deathbed. When I heard her tell the story, I was mortified for her as it was so offensive.

[Guest imseeker]

There's also a scene in Boo Junfeng's Sandcastle where the mother, stepfather and a pastor from a church was in the hospital to perform a deathbed conversion for the ah ma.

[Eddy]

Isn't it already not allowed in hospitals?

There was a news article about "No Proselytizing in Hospitals" where a volunteer was asked to leave the hospital.

Is it not enforced? If so, someone should call the police and report harassment of patients.

[Guest Guest]

There are so many cases and not only happened in hospital ... it is happening at home too ... an 80 y.o. auntie praying Tao Pek Kong since she was a little girl ..."suddenly" become christian after her children had "pulled" her to attend a few church services ... i was casually talking to her the other day and asked her how's the church service ... she told me "Don't know what they are saying in church" ... she did it because she love her children ... but her children is selfish to "make things simple" for themselves in "near future". Bo bian ah bo bian ~~~~

[Guest imseeker]

The guest is right. Conversions don't just happen in the hospitals.

There should be a law making involuntary religious conversions a criminal offence.

[fenghou]

family members who try to make deathbed conversions see it as

"I love my ah ma, I must save her and bring her to salvation."

what a ton of crap I must say

so much preaching of love and that "HE" will save you and they actually forget about respecting that someone who's at his deathbed.

striking at his lowest and most vulnerable point of his life

I see it as more of :

"FORCING your loved ones to CONFORM to your beliefs"

just because you believe your religion will "Save" you, and that you sincerely think it is true

it doesn't mean other people think it that way or that it might actually 100%, without a doubt, happen, or be true

in fact the religion which I am trying to imply in my post but not name stated in its book that you must RESPECT other people's belief, stop being a selective follower only bring out versus which justify your actions.

show care, concern , and assurance

that's what you should do at a loved one's deathbed

and not telling him that he has been a fool all his life for believing in the wrong religion, and prove that you are right

that's being self-centred and definitely not "love"

[Guest Happylark]

wah loads of double standards here.

i dont think it's fair to assume that family members who convert their loved ones nearing the end of their lives are doing so out of their own interests. perhaps they really do believe it'll work.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to eat vegetable when you're young.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to stay at home and revise for your exams.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to listen to her and do this instead of that.

why did she force you? because she loves, she cares and that's exactly her ways of demonstrating it to protect you. "it's all for your own good", they would say. but the "own good" is in their perspective. does it mean that mommy is being self-centered and not really caring then?

[gstc82]

so there are people who want the govt to curb freedom of practicing religion? lol.

[Guest Panlingling]

wah loads of double standards here.

i dont think it's fair to assume that family members who convert their loved ones nearing the end of their lives are doing so out of their own interests. perhaps they really do believe it'll work.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to eat vegetable when you're young.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to stay at home and revise for your exams.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to listen to her and do this instead of that.

why did she force you? because she loves, she cares and that's exactly her ways of demonstrating it to protect you. "it's all for your own good", they would say. but the "own good" is in their perspective. does it mean that mommy is being self-centered and not really caring then?

Mommy: "Happylak boy boy, turn str8. Get a woman and not a man to marry. Its good for you !" Why are you still here? :whistle:

[Guest imseeker]

wah loads of double standards here.

i dont think it's fair to assume that family members who convert their loved ones nearing the end of their lives are doing so out of their own interests. perhaps they really do believe it'll work.

Deathbed conversion are immoral and unethical. The person concerned is not in the right frame of mind to make an informed choice.

Here's a challenge to all deathbed-converting Christians!

Ask people while they are healthy and sane whether or not they want to be converted to Christianity at their deathbeds? Get that in writing.

[Guest imseeker]

so there are people who want the govt to curb freedom of practicing religion? lol.

Going by your logic, the Christian couple referred to below should also be free to practise their religion even if it's in a seditious way??

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/singapore.evangelists.found.guilty.in.first.sedition.trial/23492.htm

"A Christian couple has been found guilty of distributing seditious or objectionable material to three Muslims and being in possession of seditious publications.

The case of Ong Kian Cheong, a SingTel technical officer, and Dorothy Chan Hien Leng, a UBS associate director, marks the first time in the republic that a full trial under the Sedition Act has been heard.

For many years, Ong and Chan had been involved in mass-mailing evangelistic tracts to members of the public. Three recipients of some of the booklets found them seditious or objectionable and lodged complaints."

[deceptiveeyes.deceivingminds]

wah loads of double standards here.

i dont think it's fair to assume that family members who convert their loved ones nearing the end of their lives are doing so out of their own interests. perhaps they really do believe it'll work.

Fair enough to say these people believed in their faith and hence they would want their loved ones to receive salvation but is this the way to do it when a person is about to part from this world? Is this true salvation? Is this truly allowing someone to know that religion? Is this a true and real choice?

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to eat vegetable when you're young.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to stay at home and revise for your exams.

just like how you would hate mommy for forcing you to listen to her and do this instead of that.

why did she force you? because she loves, she cares and that's exactly her ways of demonstrating it to protect you. "it's all for your own good", they would say. but the "own good" is in their perspective. does it mean that mommy is being self-centered and not really caring then?

Please do not confuse yourself by comparing how and what a mother does to her kids with deathbed conversions. Young children do not understand nor appreciate the values of eating a balanced diet and who knows better than their mothers? Who knows better that if you don't do well in your studies, most likely you'll likely end up slogging and toiling under the sun for a living? What our mothers do or nag if you wish, are for our own good when we as children do not know better. This is not to be compared to the intentions of people who carry out deathbed conversion! If an adult wants to be affiliated with any religion, he or she would have had made the decision while he or she is alive and kicking and not when he or she is about to depart. Don't tell me that they do not know what they want and what's good for them! If by not choosing to believe or convert to a certain religion will not grant me forgiveness and access to that so called cushy place known as Heaven, then so be it! I choose Hell any time!

[sonnabend]

Signed! Although I'm a Catholic, i find that these type of forced conversions are disgusting and disgrace to all Christians. I doubt that those so-called "Christians" really want to "save" the non-believer from "Hell", most of them try to convert non-Christians rather because their "churches" tell them that converting a non-Christian will please God and thus grant them higher places in heaven. So yeah, Children/grandchildren who are trying to convert their parent/grandparents are doing so out of their own interest, not because of love or care or whatever sounds good.

Edited June 9, 2011 by sonnabend

[Guest Happylark]

Please do not confuse yourself by comparing how and what a mother does to her kids with deathbed conversions. Young children do not understand nor appreciate the values of eating a balanced diet and who knows better than their mothers? Who knows better that if you don't do well in your studies, most likely you'll likely end up slogging and toiling under the sun for a living? What our mothers do or nag if you wish, are for our own good when we as children do not know better. This is not to be compared to the intentions of people who carry out deathbed conversion! If an adult wants to be affiliated with any religion, he or she would have had made the decision while he or she is alive and kicking and not when he or she is about to depart. Don't tell me that they do not know what they want and what's good for them! If by not choosing to believe or convert to a certain religion will not grant me forgiveness and access to that so called cushy place known as Heaven, then so be it! I choose Hell any time!

knew this argument gonna come.

following the same logic, if one aint a christian, one wouldnt know what it is, what it entails. all the talk abt salvation and heaven and stuff.

like mommy who believes she knows better, so do the christians who think they know better.

if the religion in question here isnt christianity but some other religion like praying to guanyinma or tua pek gong, will the same responses apply?

i'm an atheist but if i were a firm believer in a particular religion with full faith in it, and i believe that it's gonna help the ones i love, i would of course be preaching it no?

it could be morally wrong but not constitutionally so. if we wanna ban this, are we gonna extend it further to salesman next? salesmen or promoters who paddle slimming pills to desperate slim-wannabes. slim-wannabes, who are blinded by their vest to achieve the perfect figure wouldnt be in the right frame of mind to make informed decision either.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Happylark

[Guest Happylark]

Mommy: "Happylak boy boy, turn str8. Get a woman and not a man to marry. Its good for you !" Why are you still here? :whistle:

haha because mommy hasnt told me so. so i'm still here.

and you're off to polish your best supporting actress award?

[Guest imseeker]

i'm an atheist but if i were a firm believer in a particular religion with full faith in it, and i believe that it's gonna help the ones i love, i would of course be preaching it no?

not on the deathbed to the ill and helpless! :yuk:

The crux of the problem is proselytisers trying their darndest to go about converting people in a weaker position such as the elderly, infirm, uneducated/ignorant or those on their deathbeds.

Whatever happened to freedom of religion and the right to choose without pressure tactics or psychological abuse?

Edited June 9, 2011 by imseeker

[deceptiveeyes.deceivingminds]

My response to you was not in reference to any religion in specific. I'm targeting people who try to do deathbed conversion and even though it seems that most of the cases are from Christians, I'm not restricting just them. As long as anyone tries to do it, I would think it is not acceptable.

You can go ahead to preach what you believe to be good to your loved ones but you must at the same time be prepared to accept that your loved ones are their own thinking individuals and that they have the rights to choose what or who to believe and what to follow. If a person has done this to a healthy individual who is not at his deathbed, I fully support you to share and I would be opened to listen but to preach when a person is dying any moment and forcing someone to just accept a religion is just not right.

It is not about the content that I believe a lot of people take offence but it is the context of the situation i.e. at one's deathbed - that is inappropriate!

As to comparing mothers' action to get their kids to eat their vegetables with people who are bent on doing deathbed conversion is like knowing for a fact vegetables are good vs. embracing a religion when one is dying grants you instant access to Heaven or total forgiveness just doesn't make too much sense.

One's a fact and the other's a belief that has not been proven and perhaps can never be...

Edited June 9, 2011 by deceptiveeyes.deceivingminds

[Guest Happylark]

My response to you was not in reference to any religion in specific. I'm targeting people who try to do deathbed conversion and even though it seems that most of the cases are from Christians, I'm not restricting just them. As long as anyone tries to do it, I would think it is not acceptable.

You can go ahead to preach what you believe to be good to your loved ones but you must at the same time be prepared to accept that your loved ones are their own thinking individuals and that they have the rights to choose what or who to believe and what to follow. If a person has done this to a healthy individual who is not at his deathbed, I fully support you to share and I would be opened to listen but to preach when a person is dying any moment and forcing someone to just accept a religion is just not right.

It is not about the content that I believe a lot of people take offence but it is the context of the situation i.e. at one's deathbed - that is inappropriate!

As to comparing mothers' action to get their kids to eat their vegetables with people who are bent on doing deathbed conversion is like knowing for a fact vegetables are good vs. embracing a religion when one is dying grants you instant access to Heaven or total forgiveness just doesn't make too much sense.

One's a fact and the other's a belief that has not been proven and perhaps can never be...

i know what you guys are driving at. putting aside the point that embracing a religion when you gonna die might really pave the way to heaven. but on the deathbed, hearing such stuff wouldnt allow the person to get solace? i think i'll die a happier death knowing that i might have a happy afterlife. it's just like the placebo effect i think. like how we will encourage terminally ill patients never to give up seeking treatment.

[Eddy]

Disgusting.

Putting undue duress on a dying person.

Probably expecting the dying person to will part of their money to the pastor as well to "earn" salvation.

All hopeless and heartless fiends!

[Guest Atheist]

Religions are toxic. They are one of the main reasons why homosexuals have been ostracized from time immemorial. Before abrahamic religions reigned the medieval europe, homosexuality was nothing but a normal sexual variation. Abrahamic religions are the powerhorse behind the rampant homophobia today.

[Guest Happylark]

i think this is more distasteful argh:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1134251/1/.html

[fenghou]

i know what you guys are driving at. putting aside the point that embracing a religion when you gonna die might really pave the way to heaven. but on the deathbed, hearing such stuff wouldnt allow the person to get solace? i think i'll die a happier death knowing that i might have a happy afterlife. it's just like the placebo effect i think. like how we will encourage terminally ill patients never to give up seeking treatment.

it would be good if the dying party suddenly and truly believe in their new found religion during a deathbed conversion

that would really bring solace to them, making them feel less afraid of death which is at their door-step as their new found belief had promised them Salvation, and possibly a good afterlife

but again, what's the odds of someone truly believing in another faith different from the one he believed all his life just because someone preach to him at his weakest moment, and such a brief period?

it's more likely that they converted to the other faith at their deathbed to

• apease family members (giving in)
  
• desperation
  

As to comparing mothers' action to get their kids to eat their vegetables with people who are bent on doing deathbed conversion is like knowing for a fact vegetables are good vs. embracing a religion when one is dying grants you instant access to Heaven or total forgiveness just doesn't make too much sense.

One's a fact and the other's a belief that has not been proven and perhaps can never be...

in short, it will only bring solace to them only if (and strictly so) they truly believe in the religion preached to them at their deathbeds

else wise

it will bring them great distress (highly likely) and maybe even a mockery

religion is not science

we all know Vitamin C is good because it is studied, proved and documented. We know for sure that it is good.

Whereas for religion, something so vague, so unconfirmed , so intangible, should be left entirely up to the own individual to decide when he/she is clear headed, and not when someone's crossing over

Edited June 9, 2011 by fenghou

[recklessbootlegger]

Signed! Although I'm a Catholic, i find that these type of forced conversions are disgusting and disgrace to all Christians. I doubt that those so-called "Christians" really want to "save" the non-believer from "Hell", most of them try to convert non-Christians rather because their "churches" tell them that converting a non-Christian will please God and thus grant them higher places in heaven. So yeah, Children/grandchildren who are trying to convert their parent/grandparents are doing so out of their own interest, not because of love or care or whatever sounds good.

Agreed. I am a catholic too. Conversions in Catholicism are entirely up to the individual. Indeed these people who force others to convert on the deathbed and condemn other religions are really disgraceful and disrespectful.

[fenghou]

this is good to hear

Catholics and Methodist are the only 2 types of Christians I really respect

they sway away from radical and extremist approaches and not forget about preaching love

[Guest imseeker]

What happen to happylark? Why he suddenly disappear from this forum??

[Guest maranatha]

Please do not confuse yourself by comparing how and what a mother does to her kids with deathbed conversions. Young children do not understand nor appreciate the values of eating a balanced diet and who knows better than their mothers? Who knows better that if you don't do well in your studies, most likely you'll likely end up slogging and toiling under the sun for a living? What our mothers do or nag if you wish, are for our own good when we as children do not know better. This is not to be compared to the intentions of people who carry out deathbed conversion! If an adult wants to be affiliated with any religion, he or she would have had made the decision while he or she is alive and kicking and not when he or she is about to depart. Don't tell me that they do not know what they want and what's good for them! If by not choosing to believe or convert to a certain religion will not grant me forgiveness and access to that so called cushy place known as Heaven, then so be it! I choose Hell any time!

[sonnabend]

What happen to happylark? Why he suddenly disappear from this forum??

Coz he received too many negative ratings on his posts in this thread, so he decided to close his account. I remember about one to two days before he closed his account, he posted so many emo status updates about this rating thingy lol.

[qedcwc]

Coz he received too many negative ratings on his posts in this thread, so he decided to close his account. I remember about one to two days before he closed his account, he posted so many emo status updates about this rating thingy lol.

I tot he has been posting as a guest in this thread all this while?

[Guest imseeker]

Coz he received too many negative ratings on his posts in this thread, so he decided to close his account. I remember about one to two days before he closed his account, he posted so many emo status updates about this rating thingy lol.

Oh...

[qedcwc]

this is good to hear

Catholics and Methodist are the only 2 types of Christians I really respect

they sway away from radical and extremist approaches and not forget about preaching love

That wouldn't be wholly true.

A lot of my Christian friends back in my hometown are Presbyterians, and they don't do this kind of forced conversion thingy.

[sonnabend]

I tot he has been posting as a guest in this thread all this while?

nope, he was still a member when he posted in this thread, then after receiving so many negative ratings on those posts, he mentioned in his status update that he received a warning from moderator that his account will be banned if he received more negative ratings. maybe he can't bear seeing his account being banned, so he took initiative to close his own account.

[bitch]

nope, he was still a member when he posted in this thread, then after receiving so many negative ratings on those posts, he mentioned in his status update that he received a warning from moderator that his account will be banned if he received more negative ratings. maybe he can't bear seeing his account being banned, so he took initiative to close his own account.

better than one other ex-member who went around quarrelling and calling ppl names, then got unceremoniously kicked out of the forum.

[qedcwc]

nope, he was still a member when he posted in this thread, then after receiving so many negative ratings on those posts, he mentioned in his status update that he received a warning from moderator that his account will be banned if he received more negative ratings. maybe he can't bear seeing his account being banned, so he took initiative to close his own account.

I wonder if that is even true onot or was he trying to slander the mods.

It was mentioned in here that they will suspend/ban members in cases of abuse, e.g. rating own post or use a diff acc to rate own post.

[bob24246]

i have a bad feeling that those old people whom are forcefully converted will not go to heaven.