Being A Gay Christian

[soxite]

From the above discussions I too have the same view that many arguments against homosexuality is based on English translated bibles and not in the original language or meaning. On the surface it is clear the homosexuality is not right purely from any English translation. A deeper understanding of context and original language meanings would tell a different story.

Example: Homosexual is first used in the Bible in1892 and much earlier translations of the new testament greek word actually means weaklings as in like when someone calls a guy a 'pussy' or 'girl' even though the person might be straight? It's more about someone with no guts rather than a homosexual.

There are also various New Testament meanings not really presented to us like when Jesus healed the centurion's servant/son where the greek word can be translated as servant or son but a lesser known translation is where the person is a boy slave with sexual bond that is not translated.

Even Jesus talked about Eunuchs where usually the meaning is not dwell deeper and a deeper understanding is about three groups of people not particularly meant for heterosexual marriage and one group interestingly are those born Eunuch ... an indication of those who might likely have a different sexual orientation.

Old Testament arguments can be strong and mostly are from Leviticus. But many forgot that to argue about men lying with men, they should also talk about other aspects of the Law. Apparently, the question would be why focus on one aspect of the Law and not the others, meaning we can break the others too? The argument is where Paul said that the Law is not able to fully redeem a sinner but through Jesus' perfect sacrifice we are redeemed. Thus, Jesus came to fulfill the Law that could not fulfill without the one perfect sacrifice. Otherwise, we should not be eating pork and some other stuff as stated in the Law. That's why the Old Testament talk about a new covenant that God will be bringing and that is fulfilled when Jesus was here.

In terms of personal conflict, since we all know we are gays, the only thing we feel guilty about is because we use what we know to reason instead of finding out more. Of course all the above are quite theoretical but in practical sense, we need to pray earnestly to seek understanding. I am sure God will show each of us more and more as we seek Him more and more while we are being gays.

A little start is this link: http://www.gaychristian101.com

There are others which I am sure that can be googled.

[trunks]

Being an atheist, I find it much easier to accept myself for who I am. I don't need a God nor approval from such authority to live a happy life and do good deeds. After this life, even if there is a God and he condemns me to hell for not believing in him and for living my life the way I did, then I will happily join that hell. Looks like a more fun place to be . I have acrophobia and I think I'll faint looking down from heaven.

[Cube3]

i came to a conclusion after some thought...y am i being blamed for something that i did not choose and that has been a part of me since youth i mean if i was created in this way and God hates me y m i created in the first place when God is love and ALL his creation are loved and are good?

So i kinda accepted the fact that it is ok to be gay but not live to slp ard and stuff tt is the sexual immorality that God gets angry about I feel...but being in a loving relationship is ok...

It's the church doing all the blaming, sadly, not God. God acknowledges that all men are of the flesh and therefore are weak. Thus He offers us salvation simply based on our willingness to believe in our heart and confess with our lips that He is Lord. The sins - and limitations - of the flesh (which everybody experiences) are temporary; as we evolve and grow into our new bodies, all this will be put behind us...

I also believe, to climax is to feel and share God's joy and pleasure at Creation. Why else does it feel so good?! ...Just some meandering thoughts...

[gammaray]

Gamma, cheer up. There are troughs in our lives when God seems so far away.

Even Mother Theresa encountered long stretches of her life searching for God even whilst she was in the slums.

Thx chonglip. I'm not depressed. Maybe not very happy.

Eh... idw to be mother tersea lol.

[Guest stbrianud]

This is very interesting thread... hmmm...

dafuq

[Seignolia]

I believe God is all merciful and loving, if being homosexual or bisexual is a real, mortal and venal sin, He would have intervened and stopped all of it. Yet, he still allow homosexuality and bisexuality to exist and even brought these people to his side while spreading his great commandment of Love - that transcends all boundaries. I believe that irregardless of sexuality, God wants us to live a humble and righteous life, which is not to sin. So a homo or bi child of God still can live by Grace, which will be justified by faith and good works

[Koh Chong Lip]

The concept of God differs from person to person and no one can claim to fully understand or represent God. To do that one would be utterly arrogant, confining an infinite God to one's finite minds.

We can never fully understand why some of us are gay, whether we are created like that, or as a result of sin or other situational factors. It's a complex interplay of many factors. It would be interesting to hear from God on that, but I have my own suspicions.

Perhaps what we can do instead of lamenting our fates and condemning who we are is to focus on the things that really matters to God. Setting the oppressed free, breaking every yoke, ending injustices etc... All the self pitying serves as a good distraction , blinding us to our actual potential to be blessings in our community, don't you think?

[30yochinese]

hi guys, pls do not think that I am in this for "Self Promotion"...or trying to make money from my blog.

mine is an intimate sharing as a Christian who has struggled with his faith & sexuality since age 15....

& having to go thru multiple rejections at the church level.

U can choose to disregard any of my comments in my blog...but i sincerely hope by allowing me to express my thoughts in writing...my blog will be a source of healing & encouragement for anyone out there who has gone thru similar experiences like me, thx =)

freecommunitychurch.tumblr.com

[Dart]

Hi @30yochinese I'm a self affirmming gay Christian from across the causeway. I was introduced to BW by a pastor from Free Community Church Singapore several years ago.

I hardly come across this thread until Steve pull it up to speak with you. Besides you, I see some others ( earlier posting ) had already stopped visiting this forum.

I think there may be guys here "coming out" who are struggling to come to terms their faith with their sexual orientation. They may find this thread useful. Is there any way to re-kindle this thread instead of letting it go dormant and sink to the deepest ocean?

My humble opinion.

[blowmenow]

On 6/28/2011 at 2:37 PM, WhamBam said:

This is a video our church has made -

*hugs /forum/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

great video

[Dart]

It's your blood by Michael Christ

❤ the voice

 

 

 

[Dart]

Matthew Vines, a gay Christian activist, in his work, vigorously defends gay Christians. He grew up from a Christian family in Kansas, US. He stresses that the Bible never directly addresses and certainly does not condemn a loving, commited same sex relationship.

 

In The Gay Debate : The Bible & Homosexuality, he points out that the six Cobbler Passages should be understood in their original language and in the context they are taken.

 

 

 

[Dart]

The Bible is authoritative & undisputable Word of God. It is originally written in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek & Latin. It is then translated to English & other common languages. The misconception concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. Certain words remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit into the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Hence, there is human intervention involved here. Subsequently, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to cater to their contempt & hatred towards gays.

[Steve5380]

16 hours ago, Dart said:

The Bible is authoritative & undisputable Word of God. It is originally written in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek & Latin. It is then translated to English & other common languages. The misconception concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. Certain words remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit into the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Hence, there is human intervention involved here. Subsequently, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to cater to their contempt & hatred towards gays.

 

Perhaps we could start by agreeing that morality and religiousness are two different things. Morality seems to be intrinsic in our nature that provides feelings of empathy, compassion, love.  Religiousness is what makes us believe in the supernatural to explain what is unexplainable in nature. 

 

Morality does not come from religion, since non-religious people are equally moral, and some religions have very low moral. But organized religion has made our moral principles part of their doctrine to present us with a benevolent divinity that they claim mandates these moral principles.  This is what happens with "The Ten Commandments", allegedly given by God, but people without a god will still do not kill or steal.

 

Let's leave for a moment religion aside, and only consider our inborn moral principles.  How does homosexuality go against moral?  The best criterion is to see if homosexuality VICTIMIZES someone or something.

- Does homosexuality victimize ourselves?  NO.  We can have a long history of homosexuality, and be perfectly healthy and happy.  What can hurt in gay sex is the same as what can hurt in straight sex.

- Does homosexuality victimize society?  NO. There are sufficient heterosexuals willing to procreate in this world where we have the threat of overpopulation.

- Is it immoral to use for the pleasure of sex that what nature has provided for procreation?  NO.  There is no proof that procreation is the only purpose of sex.  What about the emotional benefits of sex, and the problems in its absence? The same could be argued about food and drinks that are consumed for pleasure,  by a digestive system that seems to have been created for nutrition.  It is not sinful to consume food or drinks that give pleasure yet have no nutritional value.  The good Priests throughout the history of the Church have enjoyed food and booze to please their senses.  WHY cannot they also enjoy sex to please their senses, without any obligation to make babies?

 

If you can find any other possibilities of homosexuality being immoral,  please let me know.  So far I have not found any ways in that it violates morality.  Therefore I conclude that organized religion has it all wrong.  

[InBangkok]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:45 AM, Dart said:

The Bible is authoritative & undisputable Word of God. It is originally written in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek & Latin. It is then translated to English & other common languages. The misconception concerning homosexuality is stemmed from the mistranslation of the biblical scriptures. Certain words remain ambiguous because they do not have the exact meaning to fit into the English language. They were translated by translators who were already ingrained with negative impression towards homosexuality. Hence, there is human intervention involved here. Subsequently, conventional churches take these scriptures out of context to cater to their contempt & hatred towards gays.

I totally agree with your point re the mistranslation of words between various dialects and languages. But I wonder: how can at least the Old Testament be the authorative and indisputable word of God? We know that many of the early texts were not written down but passed by word of mouth through generations before being committed to parchment or whatever constituted paper. How many errors had crept in during this time re the assumed meanings re men lying with men in Leviticus?

 

Secondly, what was written referred only to one tiny sect who lived amidst many others. If God so loved the world as stated in the New Testament, why would God ‘speak’ just to one group and not another?
 

I have no answers. I am merely curious.

[Dart]

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Perhaps we could start by agreeing that morality and religiousness are two different things. Morality seems to be intrinsic in our nature that provides feelings of empathy, compassion, love.  Religiousness is what makes us believe in the supernatural to explain what is unexplainable in nature. 

 

Morality does not come from religion, since non-religious people are equally moral, and some religions have very low moral. But organized religion has made our moral principles part of their doctrine to present us with a benevolent divinity that they claim mandates these moral principles.  This is what happens with "The Ten Commandments", allegedly given by God, but people without a god will still do not kill or steal.

 

Let's leave for a moment religion aside, and only consider our inborn moral principles.  How does homosexuality go against moral?  The best criterion is to see if homosexuality VICTIMIZES someone or something.

- Does homosexuality victimize ourselves?  NO.  We can have a long history of homosexuality, and be perfectly healthy and happy.  What can hurt in gay sex is the same as what can hurt in straight sex.

- Does homosexuality victimize society?  NO. There are sufficient heterosexuals willing to procreate in this world where we have the threat of overpopulation.

- Is it immoral to use for the pleasure of sex that what nature has provided for procreation?  NO.  There is no proof that procreation is the only purpose of sex.  What about the emotional benefits of sex, and the problems in its absence? The same could be argued about food and drinks that are consumed for pleasure,  by a digestive system that seems to have been created for nutrition.  It is not sinful to consume food or drinks that give pleasure yet have no nutritional value.  The good Priests throughout the history of the Church have enjoyed food and booze to please their senses.  WHY cannot they also enjoy sex to please their senses, without any obligation to make babies?

 

If you can find any other possibilities of homosexuality being immoral,  please let me know.  So far I have not found any ways in that it violates morality.  Therefore I conclude that organized religion has it all wrong.  

 

Why are you approching me with the subject of morality? Are you troubled of being labelled as immoral?

The Bible is a Code of Conduct for all Christians to follow and it is by no means condemns homosexuality.

You must have been "bought" by those conventional churches and become their mouthpiece that we gays are immoral people.

 

[Dart]

2 hours ago, InBangkok said:

I totally agree with your point re the mistranslation of words between various dialects and languages. But I wonder: how can at least the Old Testament be the authorative and indisputable word of God? We know that many of the early texts were not written down but passed by word of mouth through generations before being committed to parchment or whatever constituted paper. How many errors had crept in during this time re the assumed meanings re men lying with men in Leviticus?

 

Secondly, what was written referred only to one tiny sect who lived amidst many others. If God so loved the world as stated in the New Testament, why would God ‘speak’ just to one group and not another?
 

I have no answers. I am merely curious.

 

The Old and New Testament are interconnected and are both trustworthy. The first century Christians had the Old Testament as their only reference. Jesus quoted from the Old Testament. The scribes guarded the scriptures with their lives to make sure they were accurately passed down to the generations to come. 

 

I have the least concern regarding homosexuality in the Old Testament because it is only a shadow of the real thing. Leviticus is the book of the law. It contains everthing from commandmends for men not to shave the edge of their beards; orders not to have intercourse  during menstruation; not to harvest different crops in the same field; as well as strict dietry laws. The holliness code was written to distinguish the Hebrews morally and ritually from the Babylonians and the Cannanites. When Christ, which is the fulfillment of the prophercy comes, these laws were abrogated. 

 

John 3 : 16 - 17 reads:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

"Whoever" and "the world" mean everyone that would include us gays as well.

 

 

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, Dart said:

 

Why are you approching me with the subject of morality? Are you troubled of being labelled as immoral?

The Bible is a Code of Conduct for all Christians to follow and it is by no means condemns homosexuality.

You must have been "bought" by those conventional churches and become their mouthpiece that we gays are immoral people.

 

 

I am surprised.  If my intention had been to approach YOU with the subject of morality, it would have meant not that I am troubled by alleged immorality but because I would have found YOU immoral.  But this is not the case.  You simply misunderstood the crux of my post, which is:

 

Abrahamic religions are the strongest source of condemnation of homosexuality. Are they right or wrong?  To get an answer, let's forget about these religions and judge homosexuality by its moral standing  (therefore my emphasis on morality).  And my conclusion was that I don't find anything intrinsically immoral in homosexuality. 

 

If all this means that "I have been bought by those conventional churches and become their mouthpiece" , I would expect this opinion not from you but from some people living on the moon.

 

I find that today's Bible DOES condemn homosexuality.  It is a recent thought that this condemnation comes from no other source than misinterpretation, errors introduced in the copying and translation of the original scriptures.  I like this idea. But then, why did it take nearly 2000 years of bashing gays before some smart person came to this conclusion?  Why didn't the Catholic Church recognize from the start the error of taking the Bible literally? I won't let the Church off the hook until it formally apologizes for having found gays "sinners" since its inception.  This has not happened yet, but it would be nice if someone like Pope Francis does this. (imagine the commotion this would create among the traditional Catholics, ha ha ha...)

.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, InBangkok said:

 

Secondly, what was written referred only to one tiny sect who lived amidst many others. If God so loved the world as stated in the New Testament, why would God ‘speak’ just to one group and not another?
 

I have no answers. I am merely curious.

 

Your curiosity is well justified.  But the answer is simple.

 

The old Torah was written by a member of this tiny sect. It is to be expected that this sect had a sense of community and pride ( much pride!...).  So they made a God that would hold them as "His favorite Children".  Why not?  

 

If it turns out that the lions have a God,  this God will have the head of a lion, and He created all of nature for the lions to enjoy, and all the rest of the animal kingdom, including we humans, would be at the service of lions for them to eat.

[Dart]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I am surprised.  If my intention had been to approach YOU with the subject of morality, it would have meant not that I am troubled by alleged immorality but because I would have found YOU immoral.  But this is not the case.  You simply misunderstood the crux of my post, which is:

 

Abrahamic religions are the strongest source of condemnation of homosexuality. Are they right or wrong?  To get an answer, let's forget about these religions and judge homosexuality by its moral standing  (therefore my emphasis on morality).  And my conclusion was that I don't find anything intrinsically immoral in homosexuality. 

 

If all this means that "I have been bought by those conventional churches and become their mouthpiece" , I would expect this opinion not from you but from some people living on the moon.

 

I find that today's Bible DOES condemn homosexuality.  It is a recent thought that this condemnation comes from no other source than misinterpretation, errors introduced in the copying and translation of the original scriptures.  I like this idea. But then, why did it take nearly 2000 years of bashing gays before some smart person came to this conclusion?  Why didn't the Catholic Church recognize from the start the error of taking the Bible literally? I won't let the Church off the hook until it formally apologizes for having found gays "sinners" since its inception.  This has not happened yet, but it would be nice if someone like Pope Francis does this. (imagine the commotion this would create among the traditional Catholics, ha ha ha...)

.

 

Intrinsically, homosexuality is no more moral or immoral than heterosexuality. Aside from religion, many cultures would disapprove on the former because of its inability to pro-create, hence it is already in the bad light to begin with.

I would not speak for the other two Abrahamic faiths concerning their stand towards homosexuality in this thread.

Conveniently, everyone would take the biblical scriptures at face value. I mean, who would further put an effort and spend extra resources just to learn up the original biblical languages and the commentaries unless these scriptures directly affect them.

Steve, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂

 

[Why?]

13 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

WHY did it take nearly 2000 years of bashing gays before some smart person came to this conclusion?  WHY didn't the Catholic Church recognize from the start the error of taking the Bible literally?

Because, these Churches and Pope and Pastors, and Preachers, fell short of

 

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

That's WHY.

[Steve5380]

2 minutes ago, Why? said:

Because, these Churches and Pope and Pastors, and Preachers, fell short of

 

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

That's WHY.

 

Why, Why?

 

If gays had to be unfairly bashed and chastised and made into sinners because...

because THE HOLY SPIRIT  failed to show up,  

such "holy spirit" is not holy AT ALL.  Maybe it is homophobic too?  

[InBangkok]

I have another curiosity that I somehow cannot reconcile. We know the first New Testament gospels were almost certainly not written until between around 30 and 80 years after the death of Jesus. So they may not have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These names could have been ascribed later. Even after just 30 years, can any of us really remember accurately what happened and when? What about 80 years?

 

Then much of what we know today about Christianity stems from the Council of Nicea called by the Emperor Constantine almost 300 years after Jesus’ death. It was only then that the relationship between God, the Son and the Holy Ghost was resolved. Why was it not resolved as doctrine during Jesus’ life? Why were only the early gospels that accorded with the Council’s view on Christ’s life included in the Bible? Why did it reject a vast trove of other writings including the Gospel according to Judas which gives a very different account?

 

Why should Christians abide by rules adopted by those who lived 300 years after Christ? Just curious!

[Why?]

1 minute ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Why, Why?

 

If gays had to be unfairly bashed and chastised and made into sinners because...

because THE HOLY SPIRIT  failed to show up,  

such "holy spirit" is not holy AT ALL.  Maybe it is homophobic too?  

If I have the presence and protection of the Holy Spirit, Homophobic obstacles is like a transient smoke in the air.  By then, I have entered the door, while you strive to pass through the narrow gate with that homophobic baggage.  Oh wait!! I agnostic.  Why am I even debating about religion stuff.  Gosh!!  Repent, Repent!!!

[wilfgene]

1 hour ago, Why? said:

If I have the presence and protection of the Holy Spirit, Homophobic obstacles is like a transient smoke in the air.  By then, I have entered the door, while you strive to pass through the narrow gate with that homophobic baggage.  Oh wait!! I agnostic.  Why am I even debating about religion stuff.  Gosh!!  Repent, Repent!!!

Repent to God or victims of homophobic exhortion by various religious organizations?  Like apology by another pope for misconducts of the church.

[InBangkok]

On 8/17/2012 at 9:51 PM, Seignolia said:

I believe God is all merciful and loving, if being homosexual or bisexual is a real, mortal and venal sin, He would have intervened and stopped all of it. Yet, he still allow homosexuality and bisexuality to exist and even brought these people to his side while spreading his great commandment of Love - that transcends all boundaries. I believe that irregardless of sexuality, God wants us to live a humble and righteous life, which is not to sin. So a homo or bi child of God still can live by Grace, which will be justified by faith and good works /forum/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

Sorry to drag up a post from early in the thread. But I am once again confused, this time by the post itself. If, being homosexual or bisexual had been a mortal and venal sin, God would have intervened and stopped it. Fair point. Since God did not intervene therefore it is acceptable in the eyes of God,

 

But - and surely it is a big but - if God has such powers of intervention, why did He permit the genocide of tens of millions of Aztecs, Incas and other American civilizations all in His name (and of course the gold that drew the conquistadores there in the first place)? Surely he could have let Pizarro and other conquistadores fall off their horses just as soon as they left their ships?

 

More recently, where was the intervention when the Nazis massacred 6 million Jews and the Khmer Rouge somewhere in the region of 1.5 million fellow Cambodians?

 

Even more recently how is it that a retired Pope who promised before God not to interfere with anything related to Pope Francis’ work does precisely that and is not struck down for it?

 

If an all merciful God has a reason for not intervening when such actions take place, I have yet to work it out.

Edited November 10, 2020 by InBangkok

[Why?]

8 hours ago, InBangkok said:

If an all merciful God has a reason for not intervening when such actions take place, I have yet to work it out.

Depends on how you reached GOD.  The Jews relied on their own work (by guarding the laws ardently) to please God.  Catholic relied on "middle person" to help  intercede with God.  Than you have various denominations, born out of protestants, putting new wine into old wine skin and confused the Gospel for their own political agenda (go read the book of revelation on the 7 churches).   

 

People are not able to reach God not because of what they did , but what they lack.  Often, these preachers  regard Sin as plural in the bible, but it is not.  There is only one Sin recognised by God, the rest are taken care by Jesus at the Cross.   The mass in the world today, is the result of capitalism that favoured non-believer Christian, who makes you fears the judgement of God, over various sins.   Get pass the fear and your grief, you will accept that it is, what it is in this world and then realised God is not a question, but an answer.    

 

Any holy spirit here can enlighten?

 

 

[Steve5380]

11 hours ago, InBangkok said:

I have another curiosity that I somehow cannot reconcile. We know the first New Testament gospels were almost certainly not written until between around 30 and 80 years after the death of Jesus. So they may not have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These names could have been ascribed later. Even after just 30 years, can any of us really remember accurately what happened and when? What about 80 years?

 

Then much of what we know today about Christianity stems from the Council of Nicea called by the Emperor Constantine almost 300 years after Jesus’ death. It was only then that the relationship between God, the Son and the Holy Ghost was resolved. Why was it not resolved as doctrine during Jesus’ life? Why were only the early gospels that accorded with the Council’s view on Christ’s life included in the Bible? Why did it reject a vast trove of other writings including the Gospel according to Judas which gives a very different account?

 

Why should Christians abide by rules adopted by those who lived 300 years after Christ? Just curious!

 

You have a very valid concern,  but I am going to give you a very simple explanation that may help restore your faith.

 

And this force of reconciliation is the one @Why? just mentioned,  The Holy Spirit.  The writers of the gospels were DIVINELY INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit.  No matter how long they wrote after Christ,  if they did it in the Solomon Islands or wherever,  the Spirit illuminated their minds and guided their writing hands. 

 

The same happened in the Councils that took place centuries after Christ.  The Holy Spirit was present to guide these noble Prelates in their discussions and decisions.  

 

And it is The Holy Spirit who guides the Holy Fathers through history up to our days.  This explains how Francis has improved the relationship of the Church with gays.  The Holy Spirit surely follows the advances in psychology and he may have become less homophobic.

 

And finally,  the Holly Spirit will guide you through the hesitations of faith and towards the Kingdom of Heaven.  

 

See how easy it is to justify everything with the Holy Spirit?   The Catholic Church hit on gold with it!

[Steve5380]

8 hours ago, InBangkok said:

 

If an all merciful God has a reason for not intervening when such actions take place, I have yet to work it out.

 

 

Son, who are we to pretend to understand the mysteries in the mind and the works of the Almighty God?

[InBangkok]

14 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Son, who are we to pretend to understand the mysteries in the mind and the works of the Almighty God?

I am not your Son. I am my father’s son. I have never believed in the God of the scriptures although I do accept there probably has to be some form of order in our universe.

 

There are lots of things I cannot comprehend. If I blow up a balloon it expands its form into the space around it. If as the scientists all now agree there was nothing before a Big Bang and our universe began a period of massive expansion that continues to this day, into what did the results of that explosion expand? How does something expand into nothing?

 

I don’t understand what a Holy Spirit is. I totally cannot comprehend the notions of heaven and hell, and that’s before we get to what seems like the ridiculous notion of purgatory. Do people still believe in this?

I can understand that the small desert tribes of millennia ago were anxious that their populations should increase faster than other tribes. To that extent I can understand that homosexuality was at least frowned upon as it did not increase tribe numbers. Sex between men and sex between women were concepts that were probably given little thought.

 

But we no longer live in small desert tribes. We live in vastly larger societies. Our minds and our understanding have developed in unimaginable ways. We now realise - at least many do - that at least 5% of humankind is homosexual. Some established churches accept this; most others do not. What is the Holy Spirit doing as this debate progresses?

[Steve5380]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:16 AM, wilfgene said:

Repent to God or victims of homophobic exhortion by various religious organizations?  Like apology by another pope for misconducts of the church.

 

Misconducts of the church...  more dirty laundry is found in some corners of the Vatican... more Vaticangate...

 

The McCarrick Report came out as a watered down revelation of how the Curia protect its own... even implicating Saint John Paul II.  Fortunately we have Pope Francis who kicked this sex pest Theodore McCarrick out of the church, and ordered this report.  Now Francis' enemies are complaining that the report is to lenient, which it probably is.

 

[Steve5380]

23 hours ago, Why? said:

Depends on how you reached GOD.  The Jews relied on their own work (by guarding the laws ardently) to please God.  Catholic relied on "middle person" to help  intercede with God.  Than you have various denominations, born out of protestants, putting new wine into old wine skin and confused the Gospel for their own political agenda (go read the book of revelation on the 7 churches).   

 

People are not able to reach God not because of what they did , but what they lack.  Often, these preachers  regard Sin as plural in the bible, but it is not.  There is only one Sin recognised by God, the rest are taken care by Jesus at the Cross.   The mass in the world today, is the result of capitalism that favoured non-believer Christian, who makes you fears the judgement of God, over various sins.   Get pass the fear and your grief, you will accept that it is, what it is in this world and then realised God is not a question, but an answer.    

 

Any holy spirit here can enlighten?

 

 

It's interesting your observation that while Jews interacted directly with their God, we Catholics are provided with intermediaries.  You surely mean the Virgin Mary and the Saints,  because Christ is not any more an intermediary after he was made a God,  one third of it.  We could hold Judaism as more rational, since they don't have all these collection of sins and they don't venture to speculate about the afterlife with a heaven and hell.

 

I wonder if a holy spirit could be found here to enlighten.  We all have, or are,  spirits, but we lack the "holy" since we are homosexuals, or so they say. 

[Why?]

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

We all have, or are,  spirits, but we lack the "holy" since we are homosexuals, or so they say. 

Don't be humble, I find you quite a holy (shit) person at times. Oops!  If there is any consolation for that, here is a gift from GOD.  It is not about WHAT you are but WHY he loves.  Period.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Why?

[Steve5380]

2 hours ago, Why? said:

Don't be humble, I find you quite a holy (shit) person at times. Oops!  If there is any consolation for that, here is a gift from GOD.  It is not about WHAT you are but WHY he loves.  Period.

 

WHY he loves?  I am not sure why.  Why would an Almighty God love a human like us?

 

Doesn't he have better things to love?  He should stay at his level and find a companion.  Maybe a Goddess?  He must be lonely, and this is why he gets involved so much with our lives.  This is not good.

 

It might have been better if the Israelites had stayed polytheists, then God would have socialized among his peers and we would have avoided so much trouble.  And instead of a Goddess, God could have fallen for a companion God!

.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Steve5380

[Why?]

3 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

WHY he loves?  I am not sure why.  Why would an Almighty God love a human like us?

 

Doesn't he have better things to love?  He should stay at his level and find a companion.  Maybe a Goddess?  He must be lonely, and this is why he gets involved so much with our lives.  This is not good.

 

It might have been better if the Israelites had stayed polytheists, then God would have socialized among his peers and we would have avoided so much trouble.  And instead of a Goddess, God could have fallen for a companion God!

.

The above silly question can only be answered by the following silly person.

On 11/11/2020 at 12:08 AM, Steve5380 said:

 

Son, who are we to pretend to understand the mysteries in the mind and the works of the Almighty God?

 

[G_M]

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

WHY he loves?  I am not sure why.  Why would an Almighty God love a human like us?

 

Doesn't he have better things to love?  He should stay at his level and find a companion.  Maybe a Goddess?  He must be lonely, and this is why he gets involved so much with our lives.  This is not good.

 

It might have been better if the Israelites had stayed polytheists, then God would have socialized among his peers and we would have avoided so much trouble.  And instead of a Goddess, God could have fallen for a companion God!

.

HELLo Old Man @Steve5380，

You are being an ass. I am not a Christian, but I do feel that you are Bordering offensive and disrespectful to the Christian religion.  

Do you want me to give you another long holiday?

Don't answer me. I don't need your answer.

If you yap your gap and be offensive again, I will not hesitate to let you go and even if you create another account, I will still kick you out, regardless.

 

NOW, apologize to the boy and keep your mouth shut, if you got nothing good to say and I will let you off with a slap on the wrist. If you want to be stubborn, I can more stubborn than you, see who is more stubborn!

 

 

[Steve5380]

1 hour ago, G_M said:

HELLo Old Man @Steve5380，

You are being an ass. I am not a Christian, but I do feel that you are Bordering offensive and disrespectful to the Christian religion.  

 

 

I'm sorry, G_M, I don't intend to be stubborn.  I apologize to you and to the believers in God.

.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Steve5380

[wilfgene]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I'm sorry, G_M, I don't intend to be stubborn.  I apologize to you and to the believers in God.

.

There is nothing for you to apologize for.  I sense you were approaching none other than Martin Luther's watershed questions.  Reminded of those who complained about 'The Last Temptation of Jesus Christ' without watching it.

I don't agree with you but I support your right to express your views.  As with @Greenlivwhom I don't recall denouncing anyone.  Looking forward to his posting under 'musical'.  Probably on 'Jesus Christ Superstar'.

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

11 hours ago, wilfgene said:

There is nothing for you to apologize for.  I sense you were approaching none other than Martin Luther's watershed questions.  Reminded of those who complained about 'The Last Temptation of Jesus Christ' without watching it.

I don't agree with you but I support your right to express your views.  As with @Greenlivwhom I don't recall denouncing anyone.  Looking forward to his posting under 'musical'.  Probably on 'Jesus Christ Superstar'.

 

 

Well, it was my fault.  I allowed myself to be too disrespectful of Christianity.  But I have nothing against it,  I am a Christian (in the sense of a follower of Christ's philosophy) and Catholic by education.  I am disgusted by those of my fellow Catholics who are religious conservatives and let themselves be talked into religious extremism.  It starts with their bashing of Pope Francis because he favors civil unions for gays,  which they say goes against the tradition that homosexuality is a serious sin.   And the religious fanaticism now goes further with the news that the Pope has called Biden to congratulate him for being the president elect. 

 

This group of Catholics are driven to become Trump supporters because they cannot accept Biden, who in their estimation is "pro-abortion",  some of the highest crimes they can tag a person with.  In reality, Biden like most of us democrats is "pro-choice", which is not the same but simply maintains that a pregnant woman should have control of her pregnancy within limits, like not being allowed to have a late term abortion.  And they support Trump because he elevated a staunch "pro-life" to the supreme court.   That Trump goes against everything Jesus Christ preached, doesn't seem to bother them... 

 

There are some websites that fuel the fires of this religious extremism, like the following video.  This one is from the same source that launched attacks against Francis for his support of homosexuals.   At  1:40  you see in the video the revelation of why they lie so shamelessly against Biden and Francis:

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Steve5380

[wilfgene]

7 minutes ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Well, it was my fault.  I allowed myself to be too disrespectful of Christianity.  But I have nothing against it,  I am a Christian (in the sense of a follower of Christ's philosophy) and Catholic by education.  I am disgusted by those of my fellow Catholics who are religious conservatives and let themselves be talked into religious extremism.  It starts with their bashing of Pope Francis because he favors civil unions for gays,  which they say goes against the tradition that homosexuality is a serious sin.   And the religious fanaticism now goes further with the news that the Pope has called Biden to congratulate him for being the president elect. 

 

This group of Catholics are driven to become Trump supporters because they cannot accept Biden, who in their estimation is "pro abortion",  some of the highest crimes the can tag a person with.  In reality, Biden like most of us democrats is "pro choice", which is not the same but simply maintains that a pregnant woman should have control of her pregnancy within limits, like prohibited from late term abortion.  And they like Trump because he elevated a staunch "pro life" to the supreme court.   That Trump goes against everything Jesus Christ preached, doesn't seem to deter them. 

 

There are some websites that fuel the fires of this religious extremism, like the following video.  This one is from the same source that launched attacks against Francis for his support of homosexuals.   At  1:40  you see in the video the revelation of why they do so much lying against Biden and Francis:

 

 

How is that disrespectful?  My roommate in none other than Bohemia was a Catholic.  Who was I disrespecting by not questioning the 'sacredness' of well, religion.  The Chinese word for knowledge is 學問, literally learning to question.  If Luther is not off limit to you, I suspect your recent posts also serve to question, therefore undermining the role of the 'intermediary' between God and you.  Livelihood of quite a lot is at stake, as with those who allow themselves to RELY on the former mentioned.  

Anyway, the topic of this thread has 劃地自限.  I hope you don't do so and keep on contributing your opinions.  I also hope you know what the first and second Defenestration are.

 

[Why?]

5 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Well, it was my fault.   I am a Christian (in the sense of a follower of Christ's philosophy) and Catholic by education.

 

 

It is your fault, who else, since you are a educated in biblical knowledge, your entire life,  unlike me.

 

So it is only logical to have your nuts roasted in an open fire 😁 because you behaved at the extreme opposite of the other spectrum of extremist Christian lunatics who did not fully understand the gist of the bible.  You threw rocks blindly at both the good and rotten eggs of Christians community, by calling their GOD lonesome, unloving with nothing better to do…etc

 

You should, used your scriptures knowledge to unveil the ambiguous verses, in the bible, often used blindly by preachers to attack the Gay.

 

For example.

 

When earthly preacher wanted you to believe that sinners cannot passed thru the narrow gate of heaven and used quotes from GOD to justify their point.  You should use scriputure argument that GOD said the GATE was created by those who trust in the laws and rules, and not the love of GOD.   Thus only few can pass through the Gate….and one of them is Mother Mary who obey God’s will, another is Ruth, the great grandmother of David.  I can only think of few.  All other fake preachers will not be saved at the GATE because they are pretentiuos in their own self-perfection and ignore the door created by Jesus.

 

When earthly preacher wanted you to believe that sinners will go to hell.  GOD said hell was mentioned only once in the entire bible and the person who will go to hade are those who preached the wrong Gospel, like preacher who said gay people deserved to die, be shot and murdered in the name of GOD.  Such preacher, according to GOD, will be cursed.  Not the gay people

 

When earthly preacher kept using Sodom and Gomorrah to attack the Gay people.  God said it is easier to impart Grace to Sodom and Gomorrah instead of the holy people in the holiest of the city in Jerusalem.

 

While the preachers was busy preaching hates against sinners and start sacrificing lambs, cattles and dove in the holy of the holiest city.  God was walking around healing & saving “sinners” – the prostitute who nearly get stoned,  a woman with 5 husbands,  a filthy woman who had bleeding problems, the blind, the limp, the leprosy, the devil possessed and the dead lazarus came alive.

 

When preachers wanted you to believe that sins are the homsexeual, the adulterer, the murderer, the thief, the unlawful and all the wrong doings according to the commandments laid in levitcus.  God said there is only one sin he recognized, that is the lack of faith in his love for humanity, thru the sacrifice of his own son at the cross.

 

That, is where you make fun of GOD by using your freshly dark shadow to attack another freshly shadow instead of relying on divine scriputures to unveil fake teaching of previous catholics and other hate PREACHERS.  

 

As the saying goes.  Hate the fake Gospel preachers but love their GOD. 

 

If the above is being disagreed upon by Chrisitans (please use bible verses and not your own emotional feelings or other weird influence to convince that I am wrong), I have nothing more  to say, it is your problem,  I am Agnostic.  

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Why?

[Steve5380]

5 hours ago, Why? said:

It is your fault, who else, since you are a educated in biblical knowledge, your entire life,  unlike me.

 

So it is only logical to have your nuts roasted in an open fire 😁 because you behaved at the extreme opposite of the other spectrum of extremist Christian lunatics who did not fully understand the gist of the bible.  You threw rocks blindly at both the good and rotten eggs of Christians community, by calling their GOD lonesome, unloving with nothing better to do…etc

 

You should, used your scriptures knowledge to unveil the ambiguous verses, in the bible, often used blindly by preachers to attack the Gay.

--------

 

As the saying goes.  Hate the fake Gospel preachers but love their GOD. 

 

If the above is being disagreed upon by Chrisitans (please use bible verses and not your own emotional feelings or other weird influence to convince that I am wrong), I have nothing more  to say, it is your problem,  I am Agnostic.  

 

 

Yes, I should be more wise, but sometimes the little boy in me takes over,  the boy who never felt sinful for liking other boys.

 

But to use bible verses to throw at the bible verses of the extremist lunatics doesn't always work.  You know the saying "even the devil can quote the bible in his favor".  And the lunatics don't accept that their verses could be misinterpreted or corrupted by copy and translation.   Oh, it would be so nice to have the ORIGINALS of the scriptures put online for everyone to judge!  Sometimes one does not see other way out but to question the belief in a God, since without this belief there is no problem.  I am an agnostic like you, but I wish, not that I could believe in God because blind belief is dumb, but that the God is real. 

 

I also am not convinced that the criticizing of a person's God is an attack or insult to the person.  If someone says that my country is a shit hole I won't feel offended, at most I will think of the person as ignorant.  And if someone should "have my nuts roasted", it should be God himself. But if he is real and one day I have to confront him,  I'm sure that he has a sense of humor, and he will pat me on the shoulder, beaming of satisfaction for having proven me wrong!

 

For the purpose of this thread,  for the comfort of so many gays who are hesitant to be a practicing Catholic or other Christian because of their homosexuality, I like, the same as you, to expose the ignorance and hypocrisy of this segment of Christians who have become extreme lunatics because of their idea that the more fanatic they are the more they will please their God.  To hell with them!  Good Christians, Catholics who are progressives in humanistic, social ways also exist,  and... it happens that the highest boss of the biggest Christian denomination is one of them, Pope Francis.  

[Why?]

11 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

the highest boss of the biggest Christian denomination is one of them, Pope Francis.  

You mean the Pope who cares only about kissing young baby boys and then slap the wrist of an elderly woman who tried to hold his hands?  I can't say your Pope do not discriminate.  He is, afterall, a human who errs and won't be the last, but I believe his God will still forgive him.   As such, I prefer to believe not in the fresh but in the spirit - whoever that is.   Todate, I have never came across any Catholic who actually study & dissect their bible (any pinoy can clarify here?)  but more keen in the ritual under the colorful stained glass.   If their Pope hates gay, the entire "Catholics" will follow, if another Pope change the view, you bet the "catholics" will blindly agree. Simply, very ritualistic. 

 

Thus, this whole christianity thinking, is simply so screwed if one do not behold the Glory of God, but the "Gory" of their Pope/Preachers instead. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Why?

[Dart]

On 11/13/2020 at 1:08 AM, wilfgene said:

There is nothing for you to apologize for.  I sense you were approaching none other than Martin Luther's watershed questions.  Reminded of those who complained about 'The Last Temptation of Jesus Christ' without watching it.

I don't agree with you but I support your right to express your views.  As with @Greenlivwhom I don't recall denouncing anyone.  Looking forward to his posting under 'musical'.  Probably on 'Jesus Christ Superstar'.

 

 

 

 

Unprovoked insult is not simply an expression of a different view. @G_M has acted rightly within the guidelines of this forum. He has gained my respect and I stand with him in this case.

You have the audacity to further add fuel to harass and disrupt this thread!

[Dart]

For recap:

 

In 2012, then president of Exodus International Alan Chambers renounced conversion therapy, saying that it did not work & was harmful. The following year, he closed the organization and apologized for the pain and hurt participants of their programs had experienced. Several other prominent former members had made similar apologies.

 

Exodus International was an ex-gay Christian umbrella organization. It had 400 ministries across the world including Singapore & Malaysia.

 

I was almost tricked into believing that the organization promoted "family values". Thank God, I did not take up the job offer then.

 

A room of ex-gay survivors reacted to Alan Chambers' apology:

 

 

[Dart]

The Faith Of the Centurion

 

 

 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 

( Matthew 5 : 8 - 10 )

Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

( Matthew 5 : 13 )

 

The original Greek pais which means young servant of either gender or young male lover ( depending on the context it is used ) is translated to just servant in English.

 

In the Roman Authoritarian system, a servant is worth no more than a piece of property. Here we see a Centurion ( Roman Soldier ) coming to a Jewish Rabbi ( Jesus ) to beg him heal his "servant" is like going to your enemy territory to beg your enemy for help ( Romans & Jews have no dealings ).

But here, it seems that the Centurion was desperate enough to breakthrough the wall of social hostility to save his "servant". The "servant" seems to hold something of great interest and regard for the Centurion to go to that extend!

 

When reading in English, the passage just doesn't hold water. Could the "servant" be actually the Centurion's young male lover?

Notice Jesus' non judgemental approch towards the Centurion. The "servant" was healed at that moment. Moreover, Jesus' open praise for the Centurion's faith was astonishing!

 

The event played out in Jesus of Nazareth movie:

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Dart

[Steve5380]

On 11/23/2020 at 5:09 AM, Dart said:

The Faith Of the Centurion

 

 

 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 

( Matthew 5 : 8 - 10 )

Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

( Matthew 5 : 13 )

 

 

I think that Jesus would not have minded one bit if he realized that the servant of the centurion was his lover.  There was so much humanity in the gesture of the centurion that Jesus must have beamed with joy, and so of course the servant was healed.  (How nice if I could believe in these stories...)

[Dart]

Recollection

 

Remember Pink Dot 2015?

 

Senior Pastor of Faith Community Baptist Church, Lawrence Khong and the LoveSingapore network which consists of 150 churches nation wide had called their members to stand united against Pink Dot by wearing white following a similar campaign by the Islamic teacher Ustaz Noor Deros a year before.

 

There was a circulation and an urgent call among the churches to pray for a heavy thunderstorm to impede and disrupt the Pink Dot event held at Hong Lim Park on June 13, 2015

 

Prayer is a lethal weapon in the Christian faith but in this case God would not fulfill prayers that had asked for Him to make rain fall.

 

The Almighty did not respond ( considering there was a heavy downpour a day before ). On the contrary, the sky turned PINK at sunset. A colour synonymous to gay men. He even provided clear and cool weather for the day's festivities to be carried out without incident.

 

He is indeed mindful of the plight of gay men who is part of His creation. Amen.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Dart

[Dart]

Justin Lee is an American Gay Chrlstian activist who founded the Gay Christian Network and the Nuance Ministries, an author of the book "Torn" and a speaker. He has been an outspoken critic of the ex-gay reparative movement.

 

 

On Homosexuality and the Bible:

 

 

 

[Steve5380]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:20 AM, Dart said:

Recollection

 

Remember Pink Dot 2015?

 

Senior Pastor of Faith Community Baptist Church, Lawrence Khong and the LoveSingapore network which consists of 150 churches nation wide had called their members to stand united against Pink Dot by wearing white following a similar campaign by the Islamic teacher Ustaz Noor Deros a year before.

 

There was a circulation and an urgent call among the churches to pray for a heavy thunderstorm to impede and disrupt the Pink Dot event held at Hong Lim Park on June 13, 2015

 

Prayer is a lethal weapon in the Christian faith but in this case God would not fulfill prayers that had asked for Him to make rain fall.

 

The Almighty did not respond ( considering there was a heavy downpour a day before ). On the contrary, the sky turned PINK at sunset. A colour synonymous to gay men. He even provided clear and cool weather for the day's festivities to be carried out without incident.

 

He is indeed mindful of the plight of gay men who is part of His creation. Amen.

 

 

I didn't realize that there are 150 churches in Singapore that follow what Lawrence Khong says!  

 

Is the Pink Dot such an evil event full of satanism that an URGENT CALL was needed to ask God to rain on it?

 

Prayer is a lethal weapon in the Christian faith?  It must take a huge degree of religious immorality just to assume an ability to enlist the God or Gods of the religion to come down on those who they despise.  No respectable God will go for that!

Have the members of this "LoveSingapore Network" not read the gospels and understood the philosophy of Jesus Christ that they would even remotely think that they could bribe him with adulation so that he will make the miracle of drenching a group of pacific and caring people with a heavy thunderstorm, a petition that is obviously pure malevolence?

 

I don't think that it has ever been proven that prayer is successful to make a divinity do this or that.  But prayer can have a beneficial effect on the person who prays,  provided that the prayer is for something positive.

.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Steve5380