Not Just A Preference

[HendryTan]

http://www.fabmagazine.com/story/not-just-a-preference

Alex Rowlson - 12 Oct 2011

We’ve all been there.

You visit a hookup or dating website, cruise somebody’s profile and are confronted with the list: no fats; no femmes; no Asians; no blacks; masc only; my age or younger; str8-acting, you be too; non-scene; and on and on. What we find is a lot of hate when all we want is head.

“Gay men have forgotten how to have sex,” says Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore, editor of the forthcoming anthology Why Are Faggots So Afraid of Faggots? “For so long that was supposed to be something gay men were good at, but I’m not so sure anymore. They might be good at the technique but not the openness. Sex should be about opening possibilities, not closing them off.”

The negative language so prevalent on Craigslist and Grindr seems to signal that the culture of sexual liberation has been replaced by sexual segregation.

Gay sexual oppression is catalogued painfully on the Douchebags of Grindr blog, which sorts prejudiced profiles based on everything from racism and sexism to self-hating homophobia. But even though we see it everywhere, most people are as willing to admit to the exclusionary aspects of their desires as Lindsay Lohan is to submit to drug testing — statements are qualified by “Sorry, that’s just what I’m into” or “No hard feelings, it’s just my preference.”

Sycamore says that while people have the right to say what they’re attracted to, they have a responsibility to watch how they say it. “On the one hand, people are stating their preference, but on the other, these are not neutral terms. If we were living in a culture where everything was the same, it wouldn’t be a problem. But when sexual preference reinforces dominant systems of power in an unquestioning way, that’s when it becomes problematic.”

Michael J Faris, co-author of the essay “fxxking with fxxking Online: Advocating for Indiscriminate Promiscuity,” believes that sexual oppression too often is unexamined. “Desiring one thing more than another I don’t see as a bad thing,” he says. “When you say, ‘I won’t date a black person or won’t sleep with a black person,’ that’s what I see as being racist. If you can’t interrogate your desire, that’s a problem.”

Sociologist Adam Isaiah Green, a faculty member at the Bonham Centre for Sexual Diversity Studies at the University of Toronto, believes “the concept of sexual racism is too strong and too intentional. Our liberation movement worked to remove shame from sexual desire, and I think we should take a lesson from it in terms of how we deal with the topic of racialized desires. Sensitizing ourselves to the connections between our most inner sexual desires and the sociopolitical landscape we are immersed in also seems like a good way to go.”

Self-described “Queer brown drag queen faggot” ML Sugie, who co-authored the essay with Faris, questions whether strict qualifiers should play any role in desire at all: “I can’t make the case that race, ethnicity, body type, ability — any of it — has any business being involved in hooking up, beyond what people have told me are for aesthetic reasons, which I take to be code for ‘unjustifiable hierarchies that I don’t want to explain.’ It just isn’t intelligible to look at someone and say, ‘I want to reach orgasm by being fxxked, but only fxxked by a person of this ethnicity or race.’ The connection just doesn’t make sense. What is it about certain ethnicities or races that make it so you just can’t get off or find them sexually attractive? And how fxxked up is that?”

As Faris notes, “If attraction didn’t change, you would never see two 80-year-old people together. More than likely, when they were 18 they didn’t find an 80-year-old attractive.” Unless one of them was named Harold and the other was named Maude.

Ali Abbas, author of the essay “Death by Masculinity,” notes, “Sexual desire will not, like many other things, come naturally. Desire is universal, but how we shape that desire is based on our willingness to pursue it. Who is to say that desire just naturally happens? Why can’t desire be a mode of living that requires contemplation, action and self-reflection rather than strict requirements?”

It seems the terms we use to describe desires are as fluid and hard to define as the desires themselves. Faris doesn’t think universal definitions for terms like “straight-acting” or “masculine” are possible. “When I’m online and someone says, ‘Are you masc?’ my usual response is, ‘What do you mean by that?’ Those things are all culturally relative. I grew up on a farm, and you have these big women who are doing farm work, which is very masculine, but it’s not viewed as being masculine; she’s just being a wife. By femme, what do you mean? Do I gesticulate a lot? Yes. Do I do drag? Yes. Straight acting is the most hilarious term. To be straight is to be attracted to or have sex with women.”

Faris suggests that, instead of using negative terminology that describes what they don’t want, people should explain what they do want and deal with others as individuals. If you aren’t attracted to Asian men because stereotypes suggest they are smooth and you prefer hairy men, you could write, “I like hairy men” on your profile, not “no Asians.” “I think being explicit with what you’re into is more inclusive. It might mask things and make them invisible and harder to discuss. But it still makes things more inclusive,” says Faris. “If someone is reading through a bunch of profiles, at least they don’t feel rejected by 40 profiles that say, ‘no Asian dudes.’”

“Changing negative descriptions into positive descriptions doesn’t change the fact that they are still requirements based on things like race, looks or gender expression,” counters Sugie. “It merely flips the statement from ‘What I don’t want’ to ‘What I require.’ It doesn’t change the content of the message, only the wording. Why is it so important that someone find a slim, masculine, hairy, buff man? Do you have some sort of vintage sling with a really low weight limit? A grand piano you’d like him to help you move after you fxxk? What exactly are you going to do that requires such a specific, acrobatic person — and can I watch?”

What else can be done to change our bad behaviours? Sycamore believes that confronting others’ desires as well as one’s own is effective. He recalls challenging someone for having ‘no Asians’ written in his profile: “He said my distaste was ‘just because you’re Asian.’ It’s fascinating that people think the only ones who could be offended by this racist thing is someone who’s Asian.”

Raymond Miller, author of Little Kiwi’s Word Museum of Wonder and Terror blog, revels in challenging people and frequently shares his Grindr exchanges. “I’ve received so much mail in support of it. There’s the occasional letter that says, ‘Who the fxxk do you think you are.’ The irony is that they say, ‘How dare you judge me’ when they’re judging everyone else. And it’s always white boys that can’t believe someone doesn’t want them because they’re supposedly the gold standard.”

Miller has an interesting proposal for driving home the point that putdowns in the form of come-ons are not welcome in our culture. “I want to organize a sexual boycott. Maybe if people stop getting laid they’ll realize what they’re doing is prejudiced. I don’t know why some guys only want to fxxk Hitler’s Youth. I think it’s ugly, and I don’t want to reward that. Tell them that because of what they say, they’re not getting laid tonight.”

Sugie suggests a different strategy: “If you’re just trying to hook up, don’t be so picky about it. Indiscriminate promiscuity is about letting go of our notions that we should measure someone’s sexual worth based on scripted notions of race, class, gender expression, body and ability, and instead focus on creative sexual acts.”

Green goes further: “Foucault once proposed that we craft a sexuality not on desire, but pleasure. Desire is heavily psychoanalyzed, but bodily pleasure much less so. He believed that one starting point for a less socially disciplined sexuality was to focus on the pleasures of bodies — the pleasures our own bodies receive in sexual play and the pleasures we feel when giving sex.”

Words can beat people down, but it’s within our power to change how we frame our desires, and even to change our desires to create more inclusive screwing. By challenging ourselves and others we can expand our desires. So go out there and be indiscriminately promiscuous. Or deny that bigoted beefcake a hookup because of his prejudiced profile.

Just make sure you tell him there are no hard feelings — it’s just a preference.

--

Alex Rowlson is a freelance writer who is working on his PhD in history at the University of Toronto

[metalmickey]

It's what I've been saying all along. It's not a preference, it's prejudice.

[Guest Ian]

So... not being attracted to/wanting to have sex with women is prejudice against them? And isn't it our freedom of choice to choose who we want to fxxk around with? Are we to say yes to every single hookup request when we get on grindr? Because i can only think of 2 reasons you don't want to have sex with another person, 1.busy, if you are you shouldn't/couldn't be on grindr looking for sex and 2.you don't like his looks, which this will make it look bad.

Then again, i have no idea why men wants to hookup so much, isn't the internet and the hand enough?

[Officeboy]

Everyone has his/her own set of preferences, man choice is mostly based on looks while woman choice is mainly on security her man could give her. By bringing gay men into the picture, the writer is bias, just becoz he is str8 he portrayus as racist discriminatory faggots, which is unfair. I believe he also have his own set of prefrences so he should quit discriminating us

Edited October 20, 2011 by Officeboy

[gamcubmelb]

Ian and Officeboy... I think you are both missing the point.

Check out: http://www.sexualracismsux.com/

The discrimination comes when some one says "No Asians" or no whatever it might be... they are treating all people of that group as the same and one.

When queried about the "no asian" thing... when people say... coz I prefer bigger guys... or I like hairy guys.... it's a sign of their ignorance and prejudice about people of other races and treating them all as the same based on their race.

The Sexual Racism site argues this much better than I could in 4 minutes... so check it out.

In addition... I think the worst of Asians who say "No Asians" please because they are really saying no to themselves.

It's completely different to say I prefer men who are hairier and bigger to saying "no asians"... there's a fine line of difference.

It's also not about political correctness, it's about the kind of person you are.

In most countries in the world, if people say NO ASIANS out loud in everyday life... there would be a huge outcry. That's what apartheid is all about... yet we accept this in the gay world? No... we shouldn't.

Just my two cents worth... think about it more.

Edited October 20, 2011 by gamcubmelb

[Officeboy]

Dun u see our point gamcubmelb, str8 guys discriminate as much as we do, yet y he focus on us only, thats unfair

[gamcubmelb]

He's not just focusing on us He's a gay man talking about gay culture and saying we need to perhaps think about the way we discriminate against each other.

[Officeboy]

Ok read it le, discrimination stems from the str8 world anyway, so dun be too bothered about it n plus we normally arent selective with frens, its just ltr, he is just reading too much into something superficial

[gamcubmelb]

Ok I get it... it's the context that needs to be established. So, I am going to break it down here

Context

In much of North America, Europe and Australia and New Zealand, discrimination in any way is not seen as acceptable. On this basis, many in the gay community and gay rights movement have argued that gays and lesbians should not be discriminated against.

This, I have gathered, is slightly different in Singapore where for example, some discrimination seem to be tolerated and even accepted by pockets of that community, on the basis of tradition, culture and stability (Again, not saying that's everyone, just a general thing and I get that).

So, back to the Western World of the author above, the context is one where gay men will not accept discrimination against gay men. They will shout this loud and clear and say that it's not acceptable. And yet, at the same time, these same people will be the ones who think it's ok to discriminate by saying "No blacks, no asians" based on stereotyping. So, what the author is really pointing to is that as gay man, you can't fight against discrimination from the straight world if you yourself discriminate against other minority groups (in this case blacks, asians etc.). He is not telling people not to worry about the str8 world.

From years of looking at BW for example... this is less the case in the BW Community (though it does happen in other ways). For example, I don't see BW profiles of postings that say "No Chinese" or "No Indians please, no offence" or "No Malays" and even "No Ang Mohs please". Posters on BW are more sensible than that and less 'prejudiced' in many ways and are more likely to say "I prefer Chn" or even "I prefer UC" haha. This is not the case in many Western gay communities where there are countless profiles that seem to think it's ok to be prejudiced based on stereotypes (this is different to preference). If you can't tell the difference... really, I strongly recommend the racial sexism sux website.

Minorities in Communities

Another part of the story that provides the context for the above article is the how minorities exist within communities. Let me just say, from experience, and from research, that it is very hard for minority communities when they read things that say "No (insert minority group)" which outright rejects them without any interest in getting to know them. This is nothing short of discrimination.

Confident Individuals within Minority Communities

Having been involved in this area for many years, I have come across many confident individuals within the Chinese gay community in the Western World who would say "Who cares... I know who I am and it doesn't affect me. This is a superficial thing. I won't let it bother me." That's really fantastic and great for these people. However, I'd like to think that as part of a supportive community, we should also think about the younger, less experienced members of our communities.

What must it be like if you are not sure about your sexuality in small town America, where you think everyone's str8 and you are hiding it all as a teenager and you come across the one person on say Grindr for the first time, and it says NO ASIAN, and you are Asian... so not only do you feel ostracised by the wider community - you get the message that even the gays hate you... where do you go?

Trust me.. I am not being dramatic... I have seen it.

The Article once again

So... back to the article. This is written by a gay man asking gay society and community (particularly in the Western world) to not discriminate its own members. That's the focus of the article... it's not saying don't worry about the str8 world. It's saying... YES, we know that the str8 world discriminates - there's HEAPS of others writing about that - but let's look at what WE ourselves are doing - we shouldn't discriminate too.

As for it being superficial - yes, it may seem so for those who are confident and are in a majority group - but when you are a minority in community - the whole tone changes. Case in point, I know many confident young Singaporeans who would not worry about this while in Singapore but when they go overseas and are told to "go home and no asians" - they too get terribly upset and offended.

Lastly - there is a difference between preference and prejudice... but that's a whole different story.

Ok I am going to stop now... my head hurts

[jameshkh1209]

IMHO, I still think it's a preference. I have to agree with Ian here. The racism website mentions that by saying you'll never consider a person of a particular race... that's racial prejudice. But gays will never seriously consider having sex with a woman, does that mean we are sexist? Same goes with other features. If someone says a chubby will NEVER turn him on, does that mean he discriminates everyone with that feature?

The way I see it, discrimination is the act of denying one group the rights available to another group. For example, gays serving in the US military are denied benefits promised to all other service members. I'm not too knowledgeable about constitutional laws and stuff; but I don't think it would be too unreasonable to assume civil union is also a right given to all citizens. Etc Etc.

So can gays of a certain race or body type claim the RIGHTS to someone's hole, or sex in general for that matter? If not, then he has not been discriminated upon. I am a bit chubby myself but I don't get immediately offended and indignant when someone says "no chubs". They have the right to have a preference. I can't say that it's morally wrong for him not to go to bed with me. It's also not unethical just because someone's feelings get hurt.

Of course, just having a preference doesn't mean you have to be a complete douche bag about it. then it's just a matter of phrasing sentences nicely. just my 2 cents.

[gamcubmelb]

Of course, just having a preference doesn't mean you have to be a complete douche bag about it. then it's just a matter of phrasing sentences nicely. just my 2 cents.

I totally agree with that... if you can't be non-prejudiced... at least be nice

The other argument about being gay is a preference... is an arguable point which many scientists and psychologists would now argue - it's NOT a preference. It's the way it is. Just like being Asian or White is what you are born being who you are.

So yes... it's difficult to tell the difference between prejudice and performance. But I think prejudice is where you assume that "All Asians a skinny, hairless, and have small pricks" That's why it's easier to just say "No Asians"... then I have a problem with that.

But back to the article's point that the same "white boys" get very offended if you say "no whites", what does that tell you about the person?

There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference between body type and race, too much of human history has discriminated based on Race as the easy soft target. That's why society is not comfortable with that. It's shrouded in much of what human beings have done to each other in the name of race - NOT might I add... in the name of hairiness, chubbiness. Hence, the sensitivity of the issue... if you don't buy the argument... at least acknowledge this problem.

And if you don't buy that sentiment ... at least acknowledge the very real experiences of those who are in the minority who feel somewhat victimised... just saying...

So... of course you can say you have a preference (for the record... I like hairy guys with a bit more meat on them )... but when you have a negative NO to a whole group of people based on a STEREOTYPE... then people talk about this being the "thin end of the wedge". So for this... I'd like to share the following with you... if you haven't heard of it (from Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)):

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Edited October 20, 2011 by gamcubmelb

[Guest jayy]

Ok, what exactly is the difference between preference and prejudice?

I don't get the logic behind "you can't have racial preferences,that's racist, but it's fine to have other preferences (hairiness, body type etc etc etc)". How are the two situations any different? In both cases, given a choice, you're going to pick X over Y. Which means that Y is in some sense disadvantaged or prejudiced.

My point is that there's no hard and fast rule about these things because any form of preference be it race, religion or whatever else under the sky is going to be some sort of prejudice. The better thing to do is to accept it and live with it rather than getting all righteous and saying "I'm going to have no preferences at all because I don't discriminate. I fxxk everything that moves".

[Officeboy]

Ok westerners are being more straightforward if they dun like someone, however we asians dun really tell someone to the face when we dislike him, we r more likely to talk behind his back or sabotage him. The writer just wanted to sensationalize his article n it has seemed that he has effectively done so. Most people dont like foreigners in their country as they felt no emotional connection towards them, plus values, culture, pratices n goals r different. Thus its common to feel unwelcomed in an foreign environment

[Guest I am a guest]

I have a handsome str8 friend whom never show any give any fat girls chance, not even being friend with them.

So one day I ask him why he hates fat girls so much. He says there was once he try to be nice and the girl fell for him and court him for 6 months in the end he has to be heartless and harsh with her thus from then onwards he prefer to provide no room for fat girls to imagine.

I think ppl whom state clear of their preference saves everyone time.

If you know u don't like it , what's wrong with spelling it out?

It's a dating website, it's grindr, it's sex - whatever - clear and concise requirement in fact help everyone out.

I don't think it's discriminate unless you refuse to TALK or HATE certain types - but when it comes to sex and dates - it's only good to be clear so everyone saves time.

[gamcubmelb]

I don't think it's discriminate unless you refuse to TALK or HATE certain types - but when it comes to sex and dates - it's only good to be clear so everyone saves time.

Exactly This is where I totally agree with you... the point being made is these douchebags have no interest in "Talking" or even acknowledging your existence.

But I go back to my early point about Singaporean society... especially in light of much of the discussion on BW about "foreign talent", hence the acceptance that something like this is just being honest.

Anyway... I no longer expect to change your minds... it's the attitude of many in Singapore that it's fine and this level of discrimination is fine...isn't it?

It's the same as when people make really racist jokes based on a stereotype and others get offended... the response is usually "Why can't you take a joke?"

Live and let live... at least I enjoy this board still... and thanks for listening... and next time you travel overseas and some one throws a curve ball at you... do you accept or do you speak out?

Edited October 20, 2011 by gamcubmelb

[Guest kentang]

I think there has to be a distinction between preference and prejudice.

Just as there are SPGs and Rice Daddies in the straight world, there are also Kentang Queers and Rice Daddies in the gay one.

I have a sexual preference for Ang Mohs, but I don't think I'm prejudiced against non-Caucasians by my preference. I'm also open to other races if the feeling is right.

It's just a matter of individual taste. Neither the SPGs or Potato Queens are prejudiced.

Just like if you prefer your Chocolate to Strawberry, or Brandy to Vodka.

Sex is ultimately a very intimate and private thing.

But if my thinking is that ONLY Ang Mohs make good lovers. Then I am prejudiced. Or if I think that Asians or Blacks must submit to their Caucasian partners because they are more superior. That is prejudice too.

I think when superiority or power play is brought into the picture, then there is the danger of that.

Also, if I will only make Ang Moh friends, and say no to all other races, then I'm probably a bigot.

Or if I think that only Chinese are efficient and capable and hardworking, I am prejudiced against other races too.

In such situation, it's harder to argue a case of preference over prejudice.

[Guest]

Sexual Racism: I'm sexually racist myself so it's hard to complain about, but I think some things might develop once gays are more liberated and free.

 

BTW, isn't skinny and hairless is a beauty standard for gays? Asians are the most sought after too? And Whites don't scream about penis size.

[Guest]

Every human being discriminates but some discriminates more than others due to a lot of factors such as society, environment, etc, this human traits still hasn't evolved much compare to technology because it's already programmed in our DNA.

[dreamerboy]

It's quite bigoted to turn sexual preference into prejudice. Nonetheless some sexual preferences are caused by racial prejudice. Whatever sophisticated argument you may come up, it all boils down to the individual. Nobody can make such pronouncements upon anybody else; if it were sensible to do so, I could go around calling all gays misogynistic or saying Indians are racist against their own race when they prefer other races. All this argument only serves to reinforce victim mentality and shift blame to others. The mind is more cunning than we think; it can twist things to gratify our emotions and reinforce complexes and prejudices. 

 

Also, so what if you manage to convince the whole world that sexual preference IS prejudice? Will people change? Will it make you happy? At best it only serves to condemn racial preference in relationships. You would not be a tad happier. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by dreamerboy

[Guest]

No one can prove whether it's prejudice or preference, humans are conditioned this way since the evolution as despising others makes some guys feel good about themselves  and gives them a sense of superiority, which is much needed for some. This very topic won't give you an orgasm.

[Guest Platonic]

Yeah. Everyone has preference. I prefer twinky ugly looking guys. So what?

[Guest tru]

There have been so many sensible, mature remarks here...if only those who label anyone who rejects them a racist would just read and contemplate on these thoughts for a few weeks, or a few months...think about them...they might be less self-entitled and grow up a little and there just might be some hope for them.