Would You Date Someone Of Different Ethnicity? + Will You Consider Interracial Relationships? E.g. Chinese Guy With Indian Boyfriend(Compiled)

[Guest durian]

My friend was telling me (well no price for guessing his race) that someone chatted him up on jack'd and that he was hot and cute. They chatted a bit, and when my friend asked him for his name, he revealed it. So happens that my friend didn't realize till that point that the person was malay. And at the moment that he did, he instantly blocked off the person.

 

I was quite shocked when, so i asked him why he would do that. To that he said 'he's Malay! i don't want to date a Malaya guy. I only like Chinese guys. ewww.'

 

It's ironic isn't it, that one can find somebody else attractive, physically and even emotionally and all of a sudden, it all disappears thanks to the person's race.

[Steve5380]

It's ironic isn't it, that one can find somebody else attractive, physically and even emotionally and all of a sudden, it all disappears thanks to the person's race.

 

It must be a big problem for these people if one day at the pool they find themselves drowning, and the lifeguard is not of a race they like.

[Steve5380]

 

Maybe vanilla choc-chip will help u overcome your racism LOL

 

 

Is it racism that we can find vanilla ice cream with chocolate chips, but no chocolate ice cream with vanilla chips?

[sprintkayak]

i think most of my chinese gay friends are more racist than they would like to believe they are. which is why they use the word "preference" very loosely.

i once broughy my indian friend to Taboo for his first time and to introduce him to some of my friends. I was kinda appalled at how they mixed with him with that cold shoulder. Have to say that it was kind of the opposite treatment he receieved as compared to some of the White guys i introduced to them. So im not quite sure if the arguement of cultural familiarity holds water. Cos if so i should have seen some consistencies. Days after my suspicion was confirmed when they asked me in the LINE chatroom, why I hung out with Indian guy.

As i mentioned earlier in another thread, if we set our sexual preferences for one race aside and treat them similar to how we treat the chinese guys, perhaps you would find solution. you may have sexual preference for one race. and that could be argued as preference. but if u use ur sexual preference to exclude a race socially, than ur a racist trying to hide.

why cant the Chineae see themselve hanging out tgt or going to Taboo together with an indian ot malay, if u claim ur not racist?

[Guest Guest]

Try google "definition of racist"

 

Noun: a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Adj: having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.

[sprintkayak]

Try google "definition of racist"

Noun: a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

Adj: having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.

so whats your point "Guest"

[Guest Guest]

so whats your point "Guest"

 

From the definition, it implies you are racist if you think a race is superior to another.  If you do not like a particular race, that does not make you racist.  Inferred correctly ?

[Guest wozzit]

I agree "Guests point" is that liking n not liking or just plain preferring those of one's own ethnic background is not a racist issue. 

 

Lets put the word race to one side as I believe this is what is causing all the confusion. Its been said above many times that preferring is one thing; preferring because u believe u are superior to others is quite another. I see no issue with my saying in my profile what I prefer. Others may disagree (and one has done so quite strongly in another thread). But by being open n up-front about it avoids confusion n possible difficulty later in a conversation. I can see nothing wrong with that.

 

The fact is we all have preferences and the vast majority of these have absolutely nothing to do with racism. 

 

My friend was telling me (well no price for guessing his race) that someone chatted him up on jack'd and that he was hot and cute. They chatted a bit, and when my friend asked him for his name, he revealed it. So happens that my friend didn't realize till that point that the person was malay. And at the moment that he did, he instantly blocked off the person.

 

Sadly we live in a world of internet bitching where conversations can be quickly terminated for no specific reason! Nothing will change that. As to ur friend, was he in fact up-front n honest? Did his jack'd profile state "prefer chinese"? (I admit am making an assumption about his actual preference). If not, why not? Had he done so, the problem would never hv arisen.

 

For that matter, did the other guys profile say he was Malay? I assume not. Same problem! If he had included the word "Malay", yet again this would hv been a non-issue. Is inclusion of ethnicity n ethnic preference in such a case racist? Absolutely not in my view.

 

If u think it is, then what about other preferences included in profiles? Lets say u r a chubby western bttm around 40 n want to meet a slim Chinese top around the same age. U see someone who looks cute n u start to chat. Only u forgot to check his preferences or they were not listed. U then get pissed off when he tells u his is also bttm. 

 

If u do not include details of who u r n who/what u r looking for, n then cease a conversation when u discover that u r talking with a bttm when u r seeking a top - is that racist? Of course not!

[Pvtgh]

So if to date, I haven't come across a single Latino, or Egyptian, or Congolese, or Martian for that matter, that happened to be my type, am I a racist? Should I do my utmost to scour the surface of the earth to find that rare, unexpected, one in a million exception just to make sure I'm not? Or am I allowed to go with the general assumption that since I have come across plenty of Chinese who did happen to be my type, I might as well look among them first in the hope to find my Mr right. Time, after all, is limited and before I will have had the chance to let the whole of Mexico parade by my place, I may well have missed that opportunity.

If the answer is the former, then technically, I am also a sexist, given that so far I have also not come across one woman who happened to my type (which I personally attribute to the fact that they were not men, but again I could be wrong there)

.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pvtgh

[bodybuildMLY]

Due to the current outlook both in the West and the East, everyone tries to avoid the term "racist" being labelled upon them. Unfortunately, I simply do not find any difference between the term "preference" and "racism" because ultimately, there is an underlying psychological state within someone to determine which race / culture is more superior than the other, hence blocking him to choose that person in entirety.

 

It tickles me when someone finds you attractive and have good conversational chemistry. Yet, when you are of different race from that person, he shuts you off from communication entirely. There is some underlying reason why such person behaves in such a way. Stereotypes? Bigotry? All these may lead to racism i.e. my kind is superior than yours. 

 

As much as I hate to say, such attitude is here to stay. No matter what, there is a tint of racism in every individual. Do note that racism is just a mind framework. 

[Guest wozzit]

Sexual preference has absolutely nothing to do with racism! It has nothing to do with one person feeling superior to another because of his race. Period! 

Edited December 17, 2014 by wozzit

[Guest Guest]

on the other hand, liking another race for their perceived inferiority is another type of racism.

Best example are those farangs in Thailand. The white whales there like those scrawny Thai boys because these are considered dumb, economically in need of white money, obedient and cheap. The whites bask in their elevated status there.

But in other richer Asian countries, they are mostly ignored.

[BigEars]

i think most of my chinese gay friends are more racist than they would like to believe they are. which is why they use the word "preference" very loosely.

i once broughy my indian friend to Taboo for his first time and to introduce him to some of my friends. I was kinda appalled at how they mixed with him with that cold shoulder. Have to say that it was kind of the opposite treatment he receieved as compared to some of the White guys i introduced to them. So im not quite sure if the arguement of cultural familiarity holds water. Cos if so i should have seen some consistencies. Days after my suspicion was confirmed when they asked me in the LINE chatroom, why I hung out with Indian guy.

As i mentioned earlier in another thread, if we set our sexual preferences for one race aside and treat them similar to how we treat the chinese guys, perhaps you would find solution. you may have sexual preference for one race. and that could be argued as preference. but if u use ur sexual preference to exclude a race socially, than ur a racist trying to hide.

why cant the Chineae see themselve hanging out tgt or going to Taboo together with an indian ot malay, if u claim ur not racist?

 

 

Haha. This is exactly what i tried to explain earlier. If you say that you prefer not to date someone of another race because of a personal preference maybe i can understand. But if you can't treat a person the same ways as others just because of their race, i think there is something fundamentally wrong with you and your thinking. 

 

This is probably the reason why people of other races are rare sights at such social event or even gay apps. Thankfully i have been able to find some friends who are more inclusive, though i still stay away from much of the social "scene" events due to the above stated reason. I always hope that i can change peoples stereotypical view, one at time!

[BigEars]

My friend (yes he's Chinese) once jokingly called the situation experienced by the majority race within the circle 'the chinese privilege'. He was quick to add that this was what people of the majority racial group believed they were entitled to, which he felt was totally ridiculous and unjust.

 

Actually growing up and discovering the circle for the first time, i always felt inferior. During my time exploring and getting to know the circle, i was called degrading names on multiple occasions. On most occasions people would just not acknowledge my messages. At times i would feel down and depressed. I thought that people did that because i was just deemed too ugly and unworthy. I would question myself on what i did wrong, or why i was lesser of a human being.

 

Thing changed when (i believed it was last year) I attended 'asian boys part 2' the play, which centres around gay problems and stereotypes in a funny way. In the play a character (who was malay) would be rejected by people he pursuit because of his race. Although it was funny, and the entire audience was laughing away, i found myself fighting back tears. Cause i knew what he felt. And people should not feel that way!

 

That was when i realized that the problem i faced was not isolated to me alone. The problem was more widespread than i thought! And something had to be done about it

[hotphoenix]

My friend (yes he's Chinese) once jokingly called the situation experienced by the majority race within the circle 'the chinese privilege'. He was quick to add that this was what people of the majority racial group believed they were entitled to, which he felt was totally ridiculous and unjust.

 

Actually growing up and discovering the circle for the first time, i always felt inferior. During my time exploring and getting to know the circle, i was called degrading names on multiple occasions. On most occasions people would just not acknowledge my messages. At times i would feel down and depressed. I thought that people did that because i was just deemed too ugly and unworthy. I would question myself on what i did wrong, or why i was lesser of a human being.

 

Thing changed when (i believed it was last year) I attended 'asian boys part 2' the play, which centres around gay problems and stereotypes in a funny way. In the play a character (who was malay) would be rejected by people he pursuit because of his race. Although it was funny, and the entire audience was laughing away, i found myself fighting back tears. Cause i knew what he felt. And people should not feel that way!

 

That was when i realized that the problem i faced was not isolated to me alone. The problem was more widespread than i thought! And something had to be done about it

 

haha, and i loved Jo Kukathas's come back on that scene! i think the problem in Singapore is that there aren't enough straight forward and blunt people telling ppl off, on how ridiculously racist they are

[Guest Bj]

Racism generally refers to a belief that one race is superior to other races. To suggest that its racist for one Singapore Chinese preferring to have sex with another Singapore Chinese rather than a Malay, Thai, Japanese or German is just rubbish. It has nothing to do with being racist! Turn the idea on its head n you have everyone wanting to have sex with everyone else, or everyone wanting to wear Mate swimming trunks rather than long boxers. Personal preference in this context is not racist!

I think all the SPG/SPB, Potato Queen and Rice Queen will agree with this.

I am 99.99% Potato Queen, I prefer white than the local men, only 0.01% of local men will get my attention, anyway this is my preference on men and nothing to do with racist.

So when I saw the profiles of white men says they like only their own race I will respect that too coz is their preference as well, just like the local Stick Rice they will not go for Angmoh guys as well coz is their preference on men too.

[Roger]

away, i found myself fighting back tears. Cause i knew what he felt. And people should not feel that way!

 

That was when i realized that the problem i faced was not isolated to me alone. The problem was more widespread than i thought! And something had to be done about it

 

Yes, what are you (or the ppl in yr position) going to do about it?  If you knew ppl won't reply to yr messages, so don't do that and go into another direction; like meeting ppl face to face so they can first hand realise your worth.

 

 

Sexual preference is NOT racism.  Even within one's race, people can choose those that are young/old; fat/thin; tan/fair; muscular/chubby. 

Educated/uneducated; rich/poor.

 

 

Happiness is not about  the next person that can make you happy.  Happiness is within us, we need to have a happy disposition. A mindset that's positive.

 

We all deserve to be happy, search your inner being, its there.

[Guest Gas]

In my opinion, if a person hate or discriminate on certain race, then it is racism, if  a person prefer to mix with his own race than other race, that is preference.

[hotphoenix]

Sexual preference is NOT racism.  Even within one's race, people can choose those that are young/old; fat/thin; tan/fair; muscular/chubby. 

Educated/uneducated; rich/poor.

 

well no one says you cant have preferences. but i think the issue here is Racial Preferences. All of the above you mentioned, are things one can control. if i see that people dnt prefer fat chubby guys, its entirely up to me to change that and get fit. if i know generally gay guys dnt like older man, than its in my control to seek a partner when im still busking in my youth. same goes for most other preferences. But the preference of choosing someone based on his ethnicity is something else different. 

[BigEars]

well no one says you cant have preferences. but i think the issue here is Racial Preferences. All of the above you mentioned, are things one can control. if i see that people dnt prefer fat chubby guys, its entirely up to me to change that and get fit. if i know generally gay guys dnt like older man, than its in my control to seek a partner when im still busking in my youth. same goes for most other preferences. But the preference of choosing someone based on his ethnicity is something else different. 

 

 

You sir have a valid point there!

[Guest wozzit]

But the preference of choosing someone based on his ethnicity is something else different. 

 

For an intimate sexual encounter? How on earth is it any different from preferring slim to chubby, younger to older, non-smoker to smoker, shy to outgoing, bttm to top . . .??? It isnt! Its a preference!!

 

Lets say u r in a bar. Ur type is slim, same age, non-smoker, bttm. The only guy who fits that description is a guy with a great smile from, say, Turkey. U start chatting. Soon u notice his body odour is a quite strong. U know that guys in Turkey hv a different diet to you. Even though u like the guy, u r not sure if the b/o washes off. If not u know u will find it difficult to hv sex with someone with such a strong b/o. So you prefer not to go with him. By ur definition, thats racism! Its not. Its pure preference!

Edited December 18, 2014 by wozzit

[hotphoenix]

 

For an intimate sexual encounter? How on earth is it any different from preferring slim to chubby, younger to older, non-smoker to smoker, shy to outgoing, bttm to top . . .??? It isnt! Its a preference!!

 

Lets say u r in a bar. Ur type is slim, same age, non-smoker, bttm. The only guy who fits that description is a guy with a great smile from, say, Turkey. U start chatting. Soon u notice his body odour is a quite strong. U know that guys in Turkey hv a different diet to you. Even though u like the guy, u r not sure if the b/o washes off. If not u know u will find it difficult to hv sex with someone with such a strong b/o. So you prefer not to go with him. By ur definition, thats racism! Its not. Its pure preference!

 

hahahahahah! nice one there Wozzit.

 

well i know the Americans reek of burgers and patties when they sweat in Singapore's weather. it doesnt stop me from saying "Hi" to them and starting a conversation at Taboo, nor does it stop me from responding to a message initiated by them on Jack'd. The truth is, we all have stereotypes. but whether we exercise them or not is the wisdom that lies within. 

 

One can have the stereotype that Malays are not intelligent or that Indians have a rather unique "Curry" sweat, to the "Noodle" sweat that he is used to. But those stereotype are just what they are, STEREOTYPES!   The wisdom lies in whether you wish to impose those stereotypes on everyone who seem to fit it. 

 

Think about it this way. If I stereotype that all flowers must have a nice scent, and those that arent nice smelling are not flowers at all, than I wouldn't need eyes to walk around a flower shop to pick up a bouquet . Ill just need to blindfold myself, and believe that I would be able to pick the most beautiful flower from the scent. What would the multi-colored and beautiful Orchids be than in this world? I would pity them, because no mater how beautiful they are, they would never be picked up because they don't have any scent at all. 

 

Its a choice you make whether to be blind folded by your stereotypes or not. that because one's experience with a Turkish man suggest that he would have B/O because of his diet, everyone else who are like him and eat like him would be so too. and hence, to safe him the trouble, he shall just exclude all Turkish in his future search for a friend/date/partner/etc. 

 

Oh btw, dnt think B/O is just from the diet. You get B/O when you age too. and B/O isn't a disease that sticks to your skin. why else would body deodorant sold in shops? 

 

 

[Guest Ben]

Sexual preference is NOT racism. Even within one's race, people can choose those that are young/old; fat/thin; tan/fair; muscular/chubby.

Educated/uneducated; rich/poor.

Young/old; fat/thin; tan/fair; muscular/chubby; hairy/smooth; Asian/Caucasian all this is sexual preference coz you found certain type of men turn you on but Educated/uneducated; rich/poor. Is nothing to do with the sexual preference, in fact is kind of social discrimination, coz it sound like you think people that uneducated/ or not well educated people are dumb and you are more clever than them; Choose to social only with rich people because you think poor people cheap and stink so they can't match with yr social status?

I am potato queen, like Angmoh guys coz they physically and sexually turn me on, while I am Siagaporen and I like all the Singaporean very much but when come to the sexual preference they just not sexually turn me on.

[Steve5380]

well no one says you cant have preferences. but i think the issue here is Racial Preferences. All of the above you mentioned, are things one can control. if i see that people dnt prefer fat chubby guys, its entirely up to me to change that and get fit. if i know generally gay guys dnt like older man, than its in my control to seek a partner when im still busking in my youth. same goes for most other preferences. But the preference of choosing someone based on his ethnicity is something else different. 

 

It may not be as clear cut as you put it.  Because there are other uncontrollable traits besides the ethnicity.

 

It starts with beautiful or ugly.  Then comes tall or small.  Large dick or small dick.  Healthy or with inborn defects.  The list goes on and on.

 

I don't say this to bash discrimination and say that we should have very flexible preferences.  My point is that discrimination is often excessively demonized, especially when it has to do with the characteristics of ethnic groups. 

 

We don't choose our race.  We are not responsible for being of a certain race.  But then we also are not responsible for people being of another race we don't appreciate as much.

 

More important is what we do with our natural racism.  If we keep it to ourselves or if we hurt others with it.

[BigEars]

More important is what we do with our natural racism.  If we keep it to ourselves or if we hurt others with it.

 

Natural racism? Racism is not natural. No child is born prejudice. Seems like an appropriate time to quote the late Nelson Mandela:

 

No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be thought to love, for love comes naturally to the human heart than the opposite.

[Guest wozzit]

1. One can have the stereotype that Malays are not intelligent or that Indians have a rather unique "Curry" sweat, to the "Noodle" sweat that he is used to.  But those stereotype are just what they are, STEREOTYPES!    The wisdom lies in whether you wish to impose those stereotypes on everyone who seem to fit it. 

 

2. Think about it this way. If I stereotype that all flowers must have a nice scent, and those that arent nice smelling are not flowers at all, than I wouldn't need eyes to walk around a flower shop to pick up a bouquet . Ill just need to blindfold myself, and believe that I would be able to pick the most beautiful flower from the scent. What would the multi-colored and beautiful Orchids be than in this world? I would pity them, because no mater how beautiful they are, they would never be picked up because they don't have any scent at all. 

 

Its a choice you make whether to be blind folded by your stereotypes or not. that because one's experience with a Turkish man suggest that he would have B/O because of his diet, everyone else who are like him and eat like him would be so too. and hence, to safe him the trouble, he shall just exclude all Turkish in his future search for a friend/date/partner/etc. 

 

I have added a 1 n 2 to your point so make the reply easier.

 

1. The point of my analogy was not the fact that the "u" don't like b/o or Turkish people. If u did, "u" would hv walked away once "u" discovered his ethnic background. The point was "u" were attracted to the guy. "U" made the move to chat with him. Nothing about any stereotype whatever. Thats a red herring. Yet, its perfectly normal in chatting to anyone anywhere in the world  that u may eventually find u just dont click - for a whole host of reasons. Usually the chemistry just doesnt work. Nothing, pls note, about stereotypes.

 

Plus u cannot infer from one illustration that "u" would decide forever not to chat with n perhaps b close to another guy from Turkey. How could "u" possibly know that another guy "u" fancied was also from Turkey till u started to chat with him? Turks do not go around with signs saying "I am from Turkey". Like many countries, Turkey is made up of lots of different ethnic groupings.

 

2. The blindfold in the flower shop analogy is totally different. My guy openly liked the Turkish guy and made the first move to initiate a social connection. Only later did chemistry not work - in this case, quite literally! Does anyone suggest that in such a situation, it then becomes racist to politely terminate the conversation, put down the drinks and move on to chat with someone else?

 

Let's add another 'what if' twist? What if the Turkish guy had actually been a top not a bttm? U seek a top. When u discover he is also a top, u move politely away to find someone who is more compatible with u in bed. Is that racism? Of course it is not! 

 

How many times does it have to be said that in terms of ur choice of an intimate sexual partner, preference is not racism? 

 

Like many I idolised Nelson Mandela. Did anyone accuse him of racism by selecting three wives who were also black, the last after the end of apartheid when he could have married one from any ethnic grouping? He made enormous efforts to unite the various ethnic groupings in his country, never more so than at the 1995 Rugby World Cup FInals. He believed in integration. He believed in the power of love. He believed that whites and blacks should be one. He was a tremendous power for good in our world. But he recognised that choice of sexual partner has nothing to do with racism.

Edited December 19, 2014 by wozzit

[bodybuildMLY]

The only way to resolve this is to question the underlying psychology under those "preferences". Only then we can established certain facts. 

 

Until the cows go home, there won't be any conclusion....peace all!

[Steve5380]

Natural racism? Racism is not natural. No child is born prejudice. Seems like an appropriate time to quote the late Nelson Mandela:

 

No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be thought to love, for love comes naturally to the human heart than the opposite.

 

Let's look at the definition of "racism" from a dictionaries:

 

"a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others."

 

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races".

 

It seems that HATE is not part of the definition of racism.  There can be racism without hate.  One strong motivator of racism is FEAR.  It is well known that Caucasians often feel fear of Black men.  I have felt this too at times in my life.  It is involuntary. 

 

Let's look at how 'natural' racism can be.  In the animal world there are cases of racism.  Animals of certain subspecies don't like animals of other subspecies.  And this is even more clear between species.  Dogs discriminate against cats, cats against mice, haha!

 

So why should not racism be also natural?   Does this hurt efforts to demonize racism?

 

We know of those who reject homosexuality as natural, because they like to demonize homosexuality.  Don't we?

 

[Guest wozzit]

I do agree with Bodybuild MLY. I doubt if members of this forum will ever come to agreement on what is n is not racism.

 

I agree with Steve that racism has to involve a general feeling of superiority. But I absolutely do not believe that racism is a natural condition. 

 

One strong motivator of racism is FEAR.  It is well known that Caucasians often feel fear of Black men.  I have felt this too at times in my life.  It is involuntary.

 

One excellent point. Fear plays a major role in developing racism. Yet, how can Steve possibly say "It is involuntary"? Sorry Steve it's totally voluntary. 

 

We all come into this world as innocents, our only desire being to be fed n comforted when theres too much gas in our stomachs! We know almost nothing more than that. We r then brought up by parents or guardians n instinctively their beliefs are instilled into our brains. We carry those beliefs with us throughout our lives unless situations arise which cause us to question them n eventually change them. Any Caucasian who fears black men has certainly been conditioned during his upbringing to fear them. It is anything but involuntary!

 

N fear that leads to racism is arguably the worst kind of racism.

Edited December 19, 2014 by wozzit

[Steve5380]

 

I do agree with Bodybuild MLY. I doubt if members of this forum will ever come to agreement on what is n is not racism.

 

I agree with Steve that racism has to involve a general feeling of superiority. But I absolutely do not believe that racism is a natural condition. 

 

 

One excellent point. Fear plays a major role in developing racism. Yet, how can Steve possibly say "It is involuntary"? Sorry Steve it's totally voluntary. 

 

We all come into this world as innocents, our only desire being to be fed n comforted when theres too much gas in our stomachs! We know almost nothing more than that. We r then brought up by parents or guardians n instinctively their beliefs are instilled into our brains. We carry those beliefs with us throughout our lives unless situations arise which cause us to question them n eventually change them. Any Caucasian who fears black men has certainly been conditioned during his upbringing to fear them. It is anything but involuntary!

 

N fear that leads to racism is arguably the worst kind of racism.

 

 

I wish I could agree with you that fear of Black men is voluntary.  I doubt that fears are voluntary, except maybe in masochists. And fear is not hate, it is not a feeling of superiority.  In my particular case, I was an adult when I moved to the US and started interacting with African Americans.  It was then that I felt Black people threatening,  and it was not conditioned during my upbringing because I had hardly seen any Blacks during my childhood.

 

I thought that it was clear the example of animals discriminating one another to make the point that racism can be natural.

 

It is so sweet to think that we are born totally innocent and incapable of any evil.  Babies are precious (at least for their parents).

But reality is a little different.  A baby has the same emotions we all have, they just cannot verbally communicate them yet. Babies get angry, jealous, and maybe they hate?  But they are totally harmless, that's why we ignore their negative moods and laugh about them.  When babies grow a little and become toddlers, it becomes evident that they can be quite cruel and hateful,  and this may not come from external sources but it seems to be inborn.  With time the kids learn to control their negative emotions and then they are able to act sweet in public. When they reach the age to be in school, they discriminate for many reasons, including the race of their peers.  So racism may not be only a learned trait.

[TheVisitors]

Natural racism? Racism is not natural. No child is born prejudice. Seems like an appropriate time to quote the late Nelson Mandela:

 

No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be thought to love, for love comes naturally to the human heart than the opposite.

Love is born naturally within, but Hate is Taught from the outer, sometimes from the extremes

 

Yet as earlier said, personal preferences over another does not mean racism.

 

For eg, if one is a good looking fit Chinese dude, he doesn't date or neither want to have sex with another coloured skin guy or another Fat Chinese dude, yet he can get along very well with them as friends or acquaintance, does that and how will that makes a racism?

Edited December 19, 2014 by TheVisitors

[Guest wozzit]

In my particular case, I was an adult when I moved to the US and started interacting with African Americans.  It was then that I felt Black people threatening,  and it was not conditioned during my upbringing because I had hardly seen any Blacks during my childhood.

 

I am not sure in which country u were born n grew up. I was born in Britain n there were plenty of dark-skinned men around as I grew up. Did u not see some in movies or on TV? I am also not sure of ur age (and am not asking!) If u had no fear of black men in general prior to living in the USA, then I suggest with all respect that ur fear has bred racism.

 

Many of the genes of parents of course find their way to children. But I can find no study to suggest that innate racism is passed automatically from parent to child. The child picks that up once it begins to become aware of its surroundings n the example of its parents n close family members. Take the child away after birth into the care of surrogate parents who r not racist n I am certain that child will not exhibit any trace of racism. In this respect, Nelson Mandela is correct. Children r not born to hate! They are conditioned to hate!

Edited December 19, 2014 by wozzit

[TheVisitors]

I wish I could agree with you that fear of Black men is voluntary.  I doubt that fears are voluntary, except maybe in masochists. And fear is not hate, it is not a feeling of superiority.  In my particular case, I was an adult when I moved to the US and started interacting with African Americans.  It was then that I felt Black people threatening,  and it was not conditioned during my upbringing because I had hardly seen any Blacks during my childhood.

 

I thought that it was clear the example of animals discriminating one another to make the point that racism can be natural.

 

It is so sweet to think that we are born totally innocent and incapable of any evil.  Babies are precious (at least for their parents).

But reality is a little different.  A baby has the same emotions we all have, they just cannot verbally communicate them yet. Babies get angry, jealous, and maybe they hate?  But they are totally harmless, that's why we ignore their negative moods and laugh about them.  When babies grow a little and become toddlers, it becomes evident that they can be quite cruel and hateful,  and this may not come from external sources but it seems to be inborn.  With time the kids learn to control their negative emotions and then they are able to act sweet in public. When they reach the age to be in school, they discriminate for many reasons, including the race of their peers.  So racism may not be only a learned trait.

I agree with you totally.

 

We tend to think babies are innocent and sweet because we as humans, often get deceived and swayed by what is looking good on the outside.

 

Babies all have their own peculiar personalities since birth, if not , developed in their mothers' womb ( or brought back into this present incarnation if you believe in past life)

 

It is when they start to grow up at 4, then do they start manifesting their own demons within

 

It becomes their own darkside as they grow up.

 

We all have it within us

Edited December 19, 2014 by TheVisitors

[Guest wozzit]

Theres no point continuing a tit-for-tat. I just can not believe new-born children have any racist tendencies automatically built in at birth. U do. We differ.

 

But I also do not believe ur view that there is evidence of racism in animals. Theres a lot of sites on the internet no so I guess we can pick n choose. But I like this one on answers.com.

 

"Race as an identifier is a human construct. To be racist is more than just prejudice, it implies a power relationship. People use the term "racist" when they often mean prejudice. Neither is acceptable, but there is a nuance of difference. 

Animals are not self aware to the extent that such a mental construction has any bearing. being "racist" is a conscious choice rather than an instinctual response, and implies intent. Animals run primarily on instinct, and thus what they do is not "intentional" in the way we humans make choices. 

Animals do "discriminate" based on whether something is a member of their identified group, but it's not based on a mental construct. It is a function of competition, predator/prey relationships, or instinctual behaviors. Even within species, competition between groups arises (rival wolf packs with overlapping territory, etc.)However this is a complex web of instinctual behaviors, not a choice based on preconceptions.

[Steve5380]

Theres no point continuing a tit-for-tat. I just can not believe new-born children have any racist tendencies automatically built in at birth. U do. We differ.

 

But I also do not believe ur view that there is evidence of racism in animals. Theres a lot of sites on the internet no so I guess we can pick n choose. But I like this one on answers.com.

 

Yes, we are inclined to think that we are born with a blank slate.  But it seems that much good and bad is inborn.  On the good part, we may have a sense of morality from the start, contrary to what the religions try to convince us that morality comes "from god".  And on the negative side are the negative emotions including the tendency to hate and deception and... racism.  

 

About racism in animals,  you may want to reflect on the quote you included:

 

"Animals do "discriminate" based on whether something is a member of their identified group, but it's not based on a mental construct. It is a function of competition, predator/prey relationships, or instinctual behaviors. Even within species, competition between groups arises (rival wolf packs with overlapping territory, etc.)However this is a complex web of instinctual behaviors, not a choice based on preconceptions."

 

Tell me if this is not a bunch of bullshit.  Whoever wrote this nonsense has the concept that only we humans have "mental construct" (and immortal soul) while animals have "instinctual behaviors" and are incapable of preconceptions.  With such mentality, animals not only don't have racism but they have NOTHING... they are simply some flesh that moves around.

[Steve5380]

 

 

I am not sure in which country u were born n grew up. I was born in Britain n there were plenty of dark-skinned men around as I grew up. Did u not see some in movies or on TV? I am also not sure of ur age (and am not asking!) If u had no fear of black men in general prior to living in the USA, then I suggest with all respect that ur fear has bred racism.

 

Many of the genes of parents of course find their way to children. But I can find no study to suggest that innate racism is passed automatically from parent to child. The child picks that up once it begins to become aware of its surroundings n the example of its parents n close family members. Take the child away after birth into the care of surrogate parents who r not racist n I am certain that child will not exhibit any trace of racism. In this respect, Nelson Mandela is correct. Children r not born to hate! They are conditioned to hate!

 

 

You perhaps had the luck to grow up in a society where black men are common and you had time to get used to them.  In my original country in South America there are no black men, and it is different to see them in movies from having them in front of you. One example of my perceptions when I just arrived in the US:  if I was working out in a gym and a group of loud black guys came and hung around close to me, I had an instinctive, somewhat fearful inclination to move away.  If they had been a bunch of loud Asian guys I would have been attracted to them (especially if they were cute) even if their shrill voices were as loud as that of the other guys.  With time I have overcome such feelings and realized that the difference is only skin deep, their feelings inside are not different and their customs are simply customs.  I am fine with these feelings of racism I had,  and nobody is going to make me feel guilty over that.  I kept those feelings to myself and they didn't hurt anybody.

 

I believe that racism is something natural, the same as hate, envy.  We should not be concerned that we have such feelings but we should work to minimize them for our own good.  What are evil are the racist attitudes, the hateful attitudes.

 

Many of the genes of parent pass on to children?  How about MOST if not ALL of the genes of parents pass on?

With all my respect for him, Nelson Mandela was fixated on race for obvious reasons, and it was on the ATTITUDES of racism.  His words reflect the association of racism with hate, which is not a given.  This gives 'racism' such a bad name.  I refer back to the definition:

 

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

 

Abilities specific to the race. Inferior or superior.  This does not point to HATE.   Not much different than to say that abilities are specific to gender, inferior or superior.  Who can find something evil in that?

[hotphoenix]

You perhaps had the luck to grow up in a society where black men are common and you had time to get used to them. In my original country in South America there are no black men, and it is different to see them in movies from having them in front of you. One example of my perceptions when I just arrived in the US: if I was working out in a gym and a group of loud black guys came and hung around close to me, I had an instinctive, somewhat fearful inclination to move away. If they had been a bunch of loud Asian guys I would have been attracted to them (especially if they were cute) even if their shrill voices were as loud as that of the other guys. With time I have overcome such feelings and realized that the difference is only skin deep, their feelings inside are not different and their customs are simply customs. I am fine with these feelings of racism I had, and nobody is going to make me feel guilty over that. I kept those feelings to myself and they didn't hurt anybody.

I believe that racism is something natural, the same as hate, envy. We should not be concerned that we have such feelings but we should work to minimize them for our own good. What are evil are the racist attitudes, the hateful attitudes.

Many of the genes of parent pass on to children? How about MOST if not ALL of the genes of parents pass on?

With all my respect for him, Nelson Mandela was fixated on race for obvious reasons, and it was on the ATTITUDES of racism. His words reflect the association of racism with hate, which is not a given. This gives 'racism' such a bad name. I refer back to the definition:

"

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Abilities specific to the race. Inferior or superior. This does not point to HATE. Not much different than to say that abilities are specific to gender, inferior or superior. Who can find something evil in that?

Hi Steve, are there any research paper that you can refer us to that shows that racism is in our genes and that we are born with it naturally?

your arguement seems.nice to read though. but doesnt seem to hold water.

Since young i have played along with the chinese and malay kids in the neighbourhood, and never saw skin color or his race as a deciding factor on whether i mix around with them. and it had been so for all my years thru childhood. i didnt know what racism meant or felt like until i hit 16 and started discovering the gay scene and having someone tell me he wont mix with me cos im indian.

so i dnt know why i dnt fit in your theory of "racism is natural".

Edited December 19, 2014 by hotphoenix

[Guest wozzit]

You perhaps had the luck to grow up in a society where black men are common and you had time to get used to them.  In my original country in South America there are no black men, and it is different to see them in movies from having them in front of you.

 

Im not going to ask further about the country of your birth. But I was in S America for 5 weeks a few years ago. Apart from loving it (what amazing natural beauty) n feeling very comfortable with all the people I met, I came across thousands of dark skinned people in Brazil n Peru, although far less in the far south of Chile n Argentina. Im just surprised that anyone wld hv no exposure to people with dark skin on the continent. However I accept ur word.

 

 

I believe that racism is something natural, the same as hate, envy.

 

I could not agree less. Sorry to say this but saying u believe that makes it sound like u hv stepped out of 1930s Nazi Germany. Even then there is a difference though. The mass of the German people did not actually hate the many Jews in their midst. They were brainwashed by the Nazi party n its leader that the Jews were the cause of the desperate ills of their miserable post World War I existence. Racism was thrust upon them by a propaganda machine that churned out its hate filled messages day n night. N we know where that led!

 

 

Hi Steve, are there any research paper that you can refer us to that shows that racism is in our genes and that we are born with it naturally?

your arguement seems.nice to read though. but doesnt seem to hold water.

 

Having come out against ur views, Im perfectly happy to read any paper u recommend that supports them - about humans n animals as u refer to earlier.

Edited December 20, 2014 by wozzit

[Steve5380]

Hi Steve, are there any research paper that you can refer us to that shows that racism is in our genes and that we are born with it naturally?

your arguement seems.nice to read though. but doesnt seem to hold water.

Since young i have played along with the chinese and malay kids in the neighbourhood, and never saw skin color or his race as a deciding factor on whether i mix around with them. and it had been so for all my years thru childhood. i didnt know what racism meant or felt like until i hit 16 and started discovering the gay scene and having someone tell me he wont mix with me cos im indian.

so i dnt know why i dnt fit in your theory of "racism is natural".

 

hotphoenix, I don't have one and I have never read a research paper about racism being genetic.  I am not an expert in the subject of racism and I have no training in it.  What I write is simply the result of my thinking, based on my general information and experience.

 

But in reaction to your question I have googled "is racism inborn?" and I found some articles that support my premise, (although as wozzit says, one can find anything on the internet) and they are interesting reading:

 

http://www.medicaldaily.com/racism-innate-human-brain-makes-unconscious-decisions-based-ethnicity-240970

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/racist-babies-nine-month-olds-bias-faces_n_1477937.html

 

Maybe I better expand on my thinking:

You were lucky that you didn't have an opportunity to experience the negatives of racism during your childhood. If you had lived in a place with predominantly Indian population you may not have experienced it ever.

In the same way, you hopefully never had a hateful sibling and other hateful people around you, and you may never have.

But there are children who get to hate or be hated early on.  And the same can happen with racism.

 

In another line of thinking:  as a gay teenager you must have experienced the discrimination based on sexual orientation. Boys who would not mix with you because they didn't have the same sexual orientation, they were straight.  And we have strong reasons to believe that sexual orientation it is inborn.  Even if we were practically equals as children, the differences appear after puberty.

 

Your personal experience may not totally rule out that the inclination to racism is inborn.

[Steve5380]

Im not going to ask further about the country of your birth. But I was in S America for 5 weeks a few years ago. Apart from loving it (what amazing natural beauty) n feeling very comfortable with all the people I met, I came across thousands of dark skinned people in Brazil n Peru, although far less in the far south of Chile n Argentina. Im just surprised that anyone wld hv no exposure to people with dark skin on the continent. However I accept ur word.

 

 

 

I could not agree less. Sorry to say this but saying u believe that makes it sound like u hv stepped out of 1930s Nazi Germany. Even then there is a difference though. The mass of the German people did not actually hate the many Jews in their midst. They were brainwashed by the Nazi party n its leader that the Jews were the cause of the desperate ills of their miserable post World War I existence. Racism was thrust upon them by a propaganda machine that churned out its hate filled messages day n night. N we know where that led!

 

 

 

Having come out against ur views, Im perfectly happy to read any paper u recommend that supports them - about humans n animals as u refer to earlier.

 

I was born and spent my childhood in Buenos Aires,  a cosmopolitan city but with zero African population (at least when I was a child). If you saw black people there they probably were tourists.  The black population in South America is significant only in countries that had an influx of African slaves. 

 

I am totally amused. My writing seems to expose me as a Nazi from the 30s totally in love with the Arian race and repulsed by the Jewish race?

You forgot that Judaism IS NOT a race. It is simply an ethnic group.  With few exceptions, one cannot distinguish Jews from non-Jews. Even less so now that circumcision is a fashion as much as a religious symbol.

 

And all along there seems to be a misunderstanding of concepts.  I am not talking of racism as an attitude, but as an inclination, a propensity. So I am not trying to defend the evils of racism.  On the contrary, my motivation is to present racism as something we should not be scared of as if it is a manifestation of the devil.  If we feel some racism here or there, we should be willing to accept it and handle it the right way so it does not hurt anybody.

 

Reading the article at the second link I placed in my previous post responding to hotphenix, something clicked in my mind:  the difficulty to recognize faces of people of a foreign race.  I can remember the face of a person of my race after a single view and identify it in a crowd.  But since I started meeting black people I noticed a strong handicap:  they all look the same to me!  (not quite, but nearly so)  This is totally involuntary and undesirable.  Is this associated with racism???  It should be, given the definition of racism.   But on the positive side, the more I get acquainted with black people the easier I can identify them.

 

In contrast,  if you are a Jew I will recognize your face as easy as if you are a Gentile.  Even if I am a reincarnated Nazi 

[Guest wozzit]

I was born and spent my childhood in Buenos Aires,  a cosmopolitan city but with zero African population (at least when I was a child). 

 

Beautiful city. N thinking about it I cannot recall seeing even one dark-skinned person in my 5 days there.

 

 

My writing seems to expose me as a Nazi from the 30s totally in love with the Arian race and repulsed by the Jewish race?

You forgot that Judaism IS NOT a race. It is simply an ethnic group ... And all along there seems to be a misunderstanding of concepts.  I am not talking of racism as an attitude, but as an inclination, a propensity. So I am not trying to defend the evils of racism.  On the contrary, my motivation is to present racism as something we should not be scared of as if it is a manifestation of the devil.  If we feel some racism here or there, we should be willing to accept it and handle it the right way so it does not hurt anybody.

 

Not quite what I wrote! N the funny thing is that u make the point I made earlier. Its far better n less emotional to talk about ethnic groupings than races. Jews r an ethnic group n not a race (although some of the Jewish guys I know definitely consider themselves as members of a "race").

 

N yes, I can see that u regard your concern about black men as being fear/concern bred from lack of experience which is therefore a propensity in ur eyes. To many, though, especially in the USA with its history of slavery n its treatment of African Americans as worse than 3rd class citizens - having to pee in different "coloureds only" toilets, eat in "coloureds only" cafes, being hounded n lynched by the Klu Klux Klan, having no vote till relatively recently - even a natural propensity/bias/predisposition against African Americans can be regarded as tantamount to racism. N that is surely what this topic is all about. The author of the TS's article who, as I pointed out, is American believes that such a propensity wld be racist.  

 

So lets get back to the topic. I do not believe for one minute that it is racist to want to hv sex mostly or even exclusively with guys with certain characteristics, even those pertaining to race. Sex to me has noting to do with race - it is all about personal preference re a very intimate close encounter. So I think we r virtually talking about the same thing!

[Steve5380]

So lets get back to the topic. I do not believe for one minute that it is racist to want to hv sex mostly or even exclusively with guys with certain characteristics, even those pertaining to race. Sex to me has noting to do with race - it is all about personal preference re a very intimate close encounter. So I think we r virtually talking about the same thing!

 

Yes, we agree.  The article posted by the TS tries to make something out of nothing.

[BigEars]

Yes, we agree.  The article posted by the TS tries to make something out of nothing.

 

Makes something out of nothing? I believe that one who has not experienced it first hand would pass it off as being nothing.

 

I read an article last month by CNN titled: The new threat 'Racism without Racists'

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/

 

 

Although the articles centres around the US situation of Police violence against the black community, it does raise some very valid points on racism.

 

 

Some whites confine racism to intentional displays of racial hostility. It's the Ku Klux Klan, racial slurs in public, something "bad" that people do.

 

But for many racial minorities, that type of racism doesn't matter as much anymore, some scholars say. They talk more about the racism uncovered in the knife fight photos -- it doesn't wear a hood, but it causes unsuspecting people to see the world through a racially biased lens.

 

 

 

 

"The first thing we must stop doing is making racism a personal thing and understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," says Doreen E. Loury, director of the Pan African Studies program at Arcadia University, near Philadelphia.

[Steve5380]

Makes something out of nothing? I believe that one who has not experienced it first hand would pass it off as being nothing.

 

I read an article last month by CNN titled: The new threat 'Racism without Racists'

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/

 

 

Interesting article, that reaffirms my belief that the issue is a lot of fuss over nothing. (nothing new, nothing one can do much about)

 

I make nothing of the fact that you may have Big Ears. This is your karma, and it is not for me to get involved. 

 

I may have a preference of races, conscious or subconscious, and this is nobody's business except myself. I don't wish anybody to be of a race that is not my favorite,  just the contrary.  I have no influence nor responsibility for the race of other people.

 

I may have a preference for slim people over fat ones, and this is nobody's business except myself. I don't wish anybody to be in my less preferred group, just the contrary.  I have no responsibility for the body weight of other people.  But I do my best to help people who want to lose weight.

 

One phrase that called my attention in this article, and which you posted is:

 

"The first thing we must stop doing is making racism a personal thing and understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," says Doreen E. Loury, director of the Pan African Studies program at Arcadia University, near Philadelphia.

 

I don't see that it is a system of advantage based on race.  I find this no different than to say that our likeness of good-looking people is part of a "system of advantage based on beauty".

 

What I see in the article is perennial whining and efforts to find fault in others for something that is attributable to the behavior of the group or it is a natural trait of the group that is nobody's doing. 

 

It is like feeling discriminated because one's cock is less than 8 inches long, and then giving an ugly name to the preference for cocks 8 inches or longer. (megacockism?)

[hotphoenix]

I make nothing of the fact that you may have Big Ears. This is your karma, and it is not for me to get involved. 

 

 

WOW!!! you have a poor sense of sarcasm to have used it anyway.... not cool bro

[hotphoenix]

Interesting article, that reaffirms my belief that the issue is a lot of fuss over nothing. (nothing new, nothing one can do much about)

 

I make nothing of the fact that you may have Big Ears. This is your karma, and it is not for me to get involved. 

 

I may have a preference of races, conscious or subconscious, and this is nobody's business except myself. I don't wish anybody to be of a race that is not my favorite,  just the contrary.  I have no influence nor responsibility for the race of other people.

 

I may have a preference for slim people over fat ones, and this is nobody's business except myself. I don't wish anybody to be in my less preferred group, just the contrary.  I have no responsibility for the body weight of other people.  But I do my best to help people who want to lose weight.

 

One phrase that called my attention in this article, and which you posted is:

 

"The first thing we must stop doing is making racism a personal thing and understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," says Doreen E. Loury, director of the Pan African Studies program at Arcadia University, near Philadelphia.

 

I don't see that it is a system of advantage based on race.  I find this no different than to say that our likeness of good-looking people is part of a "system of advantage based on beauty".

 

What I see in the article is perennial whining and efforts to find fault in others for something that is attributable to the behavior of the group or it is a natural trait of the group that is nobody's doing. 

 

It is like feeling discriminated because one's cock is less than 8 inches long, and then giving an ugly name to the preference for cocks 8 inches or longer. (megacockism?)

 

You have, with or without realizing, just affirmed what the article was trying to say. That the idea of racism isn't whats personal, but whats embedded within the frame of thinking in a society.

 

I don't see that it is a system of advantage based on race.  I find this no different than to say that our likeness of good-looking people is part of a "system of advantage based on beauty".

 

Are you sure about this? Are you really sure that beauty has no advantage? Why do they than have beautiful models to help sell for AnF. Why are there so many people obsessed with Korean standards of beauty, with SK2 selling like hot cakes? 

[Steve5380]

WOW!!! you have a poor sense of sarcasm to have used it anyway.... not cool bro

 

What sarcasm?  If he has big ears and doesn't mind to use this fact for his alias,  he is making nothing out of it.  But you seem to make something out of my post. Why? 

[Steve5380]

 

You have, with or without realizing, just affirmed what the article was trying to say. That the idea of racism isn't whats personal, but whats embedded within the frame of thinking in a society.

 

I don't see that it is a system of advantage based on race.  I find this no different than to say that our likeness of good-looking people is part of a "system of advantage based on beauty".

 

Are you sure about this? Are you really sure that beauty has no advantage? Why do they than have beautiful models to help sell for AnF. Why are there so many people obsessed with Korean standards of beauty, with SK2 selling like hot cakes? 

 

 

I am not contradicting what the article says but I disagree with the issue it tries to make. I am the first to recognize that we have racial preferences. But who to blame for this?  If you are religious, you can blame your God who created us.

 

And about beauty,  are you condemning the beautiful models who make a living from their beauty, or an industry that uses our sense of beauty to help sell products?  OF COURSE beauty has its advantages, so has intelligence, smartness, hard work, good health, and many other attributes.  To talk of a "system of advantage based on beauty" sounds like placing blame for taking advantage.

[hotphoenix]

Anyway to get to the point, I would agree with wozzit, to say that its fine if you have racial preference to be sexually attracted to someone, or to have sex with someone. But if someone is going to maintain preference based on race/ethnicity for a social activity like dating, I wouldn't say that it is wrong, because its ultimately a personal choice. But it certainly doesn't reflect very appropriately in today's world, where diversity is encouraged as opposed to uniformity. And such racial preference that one shows for choosing his social circle, show more than just his preference. It shows his intolerance for people who are different.

 

It is especially ironic to see this trend of "Racial Preference" here within the Singapore Gay scene, because, for most parts of our lives in school, we have been encouraged to mix around with different races, and opportunities are boundless to mix around and engage. It is also ironic, that the same group of people who are clamoring for acceptance from the largely heterosexual pro-family population, are also the ones who are practicing preferences which discriminates. Again, its nothing wrong, if you see it as an exercise of personal freedom. But one may be wise to note, that the freedom of choice, comes with its own responsibilities.

 

Just remember, that for the next 50 years, Singaporeans can choose to continue practicing discriminatory policies against the LGBT community, and give you the same arguments that you have put forth. That it is a preference of a largely heterosexual/pro-family population, for LGBT lifestyles not to be legalized. That it "is just a societal preference, and its neither personal, nor do they care what you think".

Edited December 20, 2014 by hotphoenix

[hotphoenix]

 

And about beauty,  are you condemning the beautiful models who make a living from their beauty, or an industry that uses our sense of beauty to help sell products?  OF COURSE beauty has its advantages, so has intelligence, smartness, hard work, good health, and many other attributes.  To talk of a "system of advantage based on beauty" sounds like placing blame for taking advantage.

 

I'm not condemning, but merely stating the fact that our society has a system of advantage for all things that is beautiful.