Preference Discussion + Why People Prefer Particular Race / Type? (compiled)

[Guest Guest]

I really don't see much relevance in this issue. Does it try to make something out of nothing?

If it is a preference, or a requirement, or an inclination, or an addiction, or a compulsion, it is something that is private to the individual. Individual rights should be respected.

If I prefer young Asian gays, as I do, this is my personal business. I'm not trying to 'discriminate' against all other ethnicities and groups. No one is justified in calling me a racist.

Where discrimination, racism is important is in the law, or in the way the law is not applied equally.

Most of us who replied have the basic understanding to agree that calling preference/requirement/whatever racist is ridiculous. Yet I don't see any mly or Indian able to do so.

[Guest Guest]

Will the Indians, Malays, or even Chinese come out and admit that they are indeed wrong and prejudiced? Or will they continue their bitter ways?

[Guest lol]

Most of us who replied have the basic understanding to agree that calling preference/requirement/whatever racist is ridiculous. Yet I don't see any mly or Indian able to do so.

 

haha...pigs will fly

[Steve5380]

Will the Indians, Malays, or even Chinese come out and admit that they are indeed wrong and prejudiced? Or will they continue their bitter ways?

Don't worry. One can build up quite fast immunity against those unreasonable complainers. Their bitter claims then can go into one ear and out through the other, bypassing any thoughts.

[Guest Addicted]

I confess... I'm addicted to PRC cocks... The taste, smell and power of them cocks makes me hard to think rip back that foreskin and SUCK for my life! 

[Ener]

1 hour ago, Guest Addicted said:

I confess... I'm addicted to PRC cocks... The taste, smell and power of them cocks makes me hard to think rip back that foreskin and SUCK for my life! 

Y PRC cocks only? Cause the food they eat? Their cock got the mala kind of taste? Tongue and mouth will have burning sensation? 

[Guest Addicted]

3 hours ago, Ener said:

Y PRC cocks only? Cause the food they eat? Their cock got the mala kind of taste? Tongue and mouth will have burning sensation? 

Not only this PRC type cock. But I have lived here for a few years gone by now. 

 

The men I have had fun times with are masculine and have a very manly aroma! Maybe you think it's bad, but I find wonderful smells with attraction to the look and muscles of man here.

 

Ener, do you have experience? Please share? 

[Ener]

3 hours ago, Guest Addicted said:

Not only this PRC type cock. But I have lived here for a few years gone by now. 

 

The men I have had fun times with are masculine and have a very manly aroma! Maybe you think it's bad, but I find wonderful smells with attraction to the look and muscles of man here.

 

Ener, do you have experience? Please share? 

Nope, no experience ah tiongs... not keen.. lolz.. their accent turns me off.. as friends no problem but no bodily contact.. hahaha... no offense ya. Personal preference. 

[Guest Addicted]

23 hours ago, Ener said:

Y PRC cocks only? Cause the food they eat? Their cock got the mala kind of taste? Tongue and mouth will have burning sensation? 

 

15 hours ago, Ener said:

Nope, no experience ah tiongs... not keen.. lolz.. their accent turns me off.. as friends no problem but no bodily contact.. hahaha... no offense ya. Personal preference. 

Soooo... Let's get this clear... 

 

You have PRC friends and don't want to have bodily contact, and that is a preference. Sure.

 

However, you then state they smell bad and have accents that turn you off? Have you told your PRC friends you feel like this? I'm sure they will not be your friend much longer! 

 

PS: I just did a 10km run at lunch... I'm hardly fat and irritated as you claim! Feeling quite awesome, actually! 

[Ener]

4 hours ago, Guest Addicted said:

 

Soooo... Let's get this clear... 

 

You have PRC friends and don't want to have bodily contact, and that is a preference. Sure.

 

However, you then state they smell bad and have accents that turn you off? Have you told your PRC friends you feel like this? I'm sure they will not be your friend much longer! 

 

PS: I just did a 10km run at lunch... I'm hardly fat and irritated as you claim! Feeling quite awesome, actually 

Am I suppose to reply to this? 

I'll just pretend I did not see this.

Please read again what you wrote.....

 

PS: I guessed wrong then.. about the fat part but not soo sure bout the irritating part.. lolz.. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Ener

[Guest Addicted]

10 hours ago, Ener said:

Am I suppose to reply to this? 

I'll just pretend I did not see this.

Please read again what you wrote.....

 

PS: I guessed wrong then.. about the fat part but not soo sure bout the irritating part.. lolz.. 

Haha! But you did reply! 

 

You racist so and so! 

 

Lots of love,

Mr. Irritatation X 

[Guest Jobby]

I think, due to the nature of this forum, most of the guys here are pretty much unattractive, discreet, no-confidence, bald, effeminate and basically rejects of the gay community that seek solace in an anonymous, faceless online platform of like minded people that share the same views. IMO the attitudes of the people here are even worse than those on Grindr when it comes to being confident to show face pic, being open to talk about issues and the ability to converse successfully in person.

 

On a different confessions, I think racial stereotypes have some truth in them no matter how hard you try to convince yourself that racial prejudice is something to be condemned. I've met up with several X people on grindr and through this forum and one thing that is 100% common with every single one of them is that they LOVE to change their mind in the last minute, over sleep and say "sorry bro" when they miss a meeting despite giving multiple chances, overpromise and always come late for anything. What's the point of being so tolerating over certain racial groups when they themselves keep on demonstrating the exact stereotypes we were taught not to think about?

[EasleyLim]

15 hours ago, Guest Jobby said:

I think, due to the nature of this forum, most of the guys here are pretty much unattractive, discreet, no-confidence, bald, effeminate and basically rejects of the gay community that seek solace in an anonymous, faceless online platform of like minded people that share the same views.

 

That was oddly specific. Are you ok? 

[numchucks]

There is a difference between racial preference and racial prejudice

Preferring a certain race, or for that matter, type, behavior - does not mean that one is prejudiced.

It's just a preference for fun.

eg.

If I don't enjoy having sex with twinks, does not mean I have a prejudice against them. It's just a sexual preference.

 

 

 

[Guest 72%dark]

10 hours ago, numchucks said:

There is a difference between racial preference and racial prejudice

Preferring a certain race, or for that matter, type, behavior - does not mean that one is prejudiced.

It's just a preference for fun.

eg.

If I don't enjoy having sex with twinks, does not mean I have a prejudice against them. It's just a sexual preference.

 

Your argument has already been made a million times on BW, but since I don't recall anyone else pointing out its flaws, let me do so here (at the risk of digressing from the topic of this thread); if nothing else so I copy and paste the reply the next time someone repeats your point.

 

A preference for twinks is not actually a good analogy. The crucial difference is that twink/non-twink preference seems to be truly an individual characteristic; when we look at the population as a whole there is little reason to believe that twinks are systematically preferred or disliked compared to other 'types'.

 

Not so with race-based 'preferences'. In the Singapore context there is a clear preference hierarchy (and thus, asymmetry): a Chinese Singaporean is less likely to interested in a non-Chinese Singaporean than vice versa, and so on. I think every Singaporean knows this on some level, it's just whether we're honest enough to admit it. But if you don't believe me, the ST recently reported on a study about attitudes to marrying someone outside one's own racial group, and insofar as 'preferences' among gay men mirror those of society at large, the findings basically corroborate my observation above.

 

In other words, a person's racial 'preference' is not entirely an individual quirk but is symptomatic of some larger societal issue. And therein lies the problem. When someone says, "I'm not racist just because I happen to prefer someone of a certain race," my reply is, "I'm not accusing you of making a conscious effort to discriminate against members of certain races, so I wouldn't necessarily label you a 'racist' per se. But the fact that you act according to a preference that is systematic on a societal level means that in some sense you are complicit in a pattern of discrimination, which can operate even if its individual participants don't consciously choose to perpetuate it, and even if on an intellectual level they consider the nett result abhorrent." 

 

And each time someone attempts to rationalize their 'individual' race-based 'preference' and it goes unchallenged, it's a lost opportunity for reflection and examination of the deeper issues that are so frequently swept under the rug, such as why those preferences exist and what it means for those who get the shorter end of the stick because of them.

 

So for a change, instead of asking someone of the race you disprefer "not to take (it) personally", don't take it personally when someone points out that race-based preferences in Sg are troubling, and don't rush to a hasty defense. Because someone who truly isn't racist would presumably be concerned about the welfare of all races and not just their own. =)

[Guest passerby]

19 hours ago, 72%dark said:

 

Your argument has already been made a million times on BW, but since I don't recall anyone else pointing out its flaws, let me do so here (at the risk of digressing from the topic of this thread); if nothing else so I copy and paste the reply the next time someone repeats your point.

 

A preference for twinks is not actually a good analogy. The crucial difference is that twink/non-twink preference seems to be truly an individual characteristic; when we look at the population as a whole there is little reason to believe that twinks are systematically preferred or disliked compared to other 'types'.

 

Not so with race-based 'preferences'. In the Singapore context there is a clear preference hierarchy (and thus, asymmetry): a Chinese Singaporean is less likely to interested in a non-Chinese Singaporean than vice versa, and so on. I think every Singaporean knows this on some level, it's just whether we're honest enough to admit it. But if you don't believe me, the ST recently reported on a study about attitudes to marrying someone outside one's own racial group, and insofar as 'preferences' among gay men mirror those of society at large, the findings basically corroborate my observation above.

 

In other words, a person's racial 'preference' is not entirely an individual quirk but is symptomatic of some larger societal issue. And therein lies the problem. When someone says, "I'm not racist just because I happen to prefer someone of a certain race," my reply is, "I'm not accusing you of making a conscious effort to discriminate against members of certain races, so I wouldn't necessarily label you a 'racist' per se. But the fact that you act according to a preference that is systematic on a societal level means that in some sense you are complicit in a pattern of discrimination, which can operate even if its individual participants don't consciously choose to perpetuate it, and even if on an intellectual level they consider the nett result abhorrent." 

 

And each time someone attempts to rationalize their 'individual' race-based 'preference' and it goes unchallenged, it's a lost opportunity for reflection and examination of the deeper issues that are so frequently swept under the rug, such as why those preferences exist and what it means for those who get the shorter end of the stick because of them.

 

So for a change, instead of asking someone of the race you disprefer "not to take (it) personally", don't take it personally when someone points out that race-based preferences in Sg are troubling, and don't rush to a hasty defense. Because someone who truly isn't racist would presumably be concerned about the welfare of all races and not just their own. =)

 

Seriously.... yet another guy using words to turn it into sth "troubling". I admit racism can carry over to "racial preference", but that really doesn't mean those who have a racial preference are racist. With words, one can turn black into white and hot into cold, but it still won't ring true. Actually the twinks/non-twinks contrast is perfectly valid, just like skinny/muscular. There really IS a general preference for those who are more fit and perhaps what you deem to be discrimination involved. They, or shall I say we, are given "social privileges" and seen to be more attractive than skinny guys in general, and a prejudiced person may see that as discriminatory rather than what it is - a preference. I can go on about how fit guys or slim women get certain jobs - certain jobs only - more easily than others, etc but I don't want to go on and on, so seriously, can you just live and let live??? The whole world is so up in arms about every single thing that they personally care about that nobody, other than the so called "oppressed minorities" and women, goes through life unscathed by ruthless and uncompromising judgments. Just live and let live. You may rant and vent your frustrations, but I hope you cut others some slack and not let your prejudice prevent you from seeing them as complex, intelligent human beings just as you are. 

[Guest 72%dark]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. People who are guilty of nothing wrong don't get so worked up. Perhaps having a flaw in one's complacent worldview pointed out is so discomfiting to some that they lash out, even if the pointing out was not directed at any specific individual. Or perhaps it's a feeling of insecurity at the erosion of privilege. 

 

Whatever it is, there are some killer ironies in this reply. The most serious of which is using a type of argument that conservative anti-gay churches have started using in recent years: When a minority group points out a history and pattern of discrimination and calls for greater acceptance, they are accused of 'intolerance'/'prejudice' and trying to infringe on the 'rights' of the (self-appointed) majority/orthodoxy to hold onto their discriminatory views/practices.

 

Congratulations, guest passerby, you've successfully repurposed the tool of gay oppressors and used them against other groups! You accuse me of turning black into white but it's you who can be proud of yourself—you sure know how to pull off some rhetorical sleight-of-hand. 

 

6 hours ago, Guest passerby said:

 

Seriously.... yet another guy using words to turn it into sth "troubling". I admit racism can carry over to "racial preference", but that really doesn't mean those who have a racial preference are racist. With words, one can turn black into white and hot into cold, but it still won't ring true. Actually the twinks/non-twinks contrast is perfectly valid, just like skinny/muscular. There really IS a general preference for those who are more fit and perhaps what you deem to be discrimination involved. They, or shall I say we, are given "social privileges" and seen to be more attractive than skinny guys in general, and a prejudiced person may see that as discriminatory rather than what it is - a preference. I can go on about how fit guys or slim women get certain jobs - certain jobs only - more easily than others, etc but I don't want to go on and on, so seriously, can you just live and let live??? The whole world is so up in arms about every single thing that they personally care about that nobody, other than the so called "oppressed minorities" and women, goes through life unscathed by ruthless and uncompromising judgments. Just live and let live. You may rant and vent your frustrations, but I hope you cut others some slack and not let your prejudice prevent you from seeing them as complex, intelligent human beings just as you are. 

 

[Guest 72%dark]

Now, since I'm partly responsible for moving this thread off topic, let me try to bring it back on with some confessions of my own.

 

Confession: Yes, I'm not Chinese (or not 100%, to be precise). Are my views on race influenced by this? Obviously. It's hard not to feel saddened when the majority of your countrymen are constantly telling you you're basically unwanted, and then telling you to shut up if you try to question why it is so. 

 

I could take the easy way out by denying the other parts of my heritage and 'passing' as pure Chinese, but that just seems inauthentic (if not dishonest), and in any case the issue doesn't affect just me.

 

Confession: I want to be liked as much as anyone else does. But my conscience wouldn't be clear if I didn't make an effort to do/say what is right just because I was afraid of being unpopular for doing so. (And why I insist on posting using my account rather than hiding as a 'guest'.)

 

[sgwolfboy]

21 minutes ago, 72%dark said:

Now, since I'm partly responsible for moving this thread off topic, let me try to bring it back on with some confessions of my own.

 

Confession: Yes, I'm not Chinese (or not 100%, to be precise). Are my views on race influenced by this? Obviously. It's hard not to feel saddened when the majority of your countrymen are constantly telling you you're basically unwanted, and then telling you to shut up if you try to question why it is so. 

 

I could take the easy way out by denying the other parts of my heritage and 'passing' as pure Chinese, but that just seems inauthentic (if not dishonest), and in any case the issue doesn't affect just me.

 

Confession: I want to be liked as much as anyone else does. But my conscience wouldn't be clear if I didn't make an effort to do/say what is right just because I was afraid of being unpopular for doing so. (And why I insist on posting using my account rather than hiding as a 'guest'.)

 

I think you're awesome to have the courage to type this out. Fortunately, my generation are increasingly racially blind. That or it's cause we've always played and studied with everyone from the 4 main races in Singapore. 

[Guest Colonialism]

I've observed particularly Singaporeans and Australians have the worst arrogant and superiority complex attitude and think they are better than other Asian nations except Japan and South Korea. It just shows that colonialism is still alive in this tiny island in a different form.

[Guest passerby]

20 hours ago, 72%dark said:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. People who are guilty of nothing wrong don't get so worked up. Perhaps having a flaw in one's complacent worldview pointed out is so discomfiting to some that they lash out, even if the pointing out was not directed at any specific individual. Or perhaps it's a feeling of insecurity at the erosion of privilege. 

 

Whatever it is, there are some killer ironies in this reply. The most serious of which is using a type of argument that conservative anti-gay churches have started using in recent years: When a minority group points out a history and pattern of discrimination and calls for greater acceptance, they are accused of 'intolerance'/'prejudice' and trying to infringe on the 'rights' of the (self-appointed) majority/orthodoxy to hold onto their discriminatory views/practices.

 

Congratulations, guest passerby, you've successfully repurposed the tool of gay oppressors and used them against other groups! You accuse me of turning black into white but it's you who can be proud of yourself—you sure know how to pull off some rhetorical sleight-of-hand. 

 

 

 

Whatever you've read into what I said, I think our opinions and replies speak more about ourselves and our world views than about reality. I personally don't like the victim mentality and do not like to see things through gender or racial glasses. You are who you are and I speak based on experience when I say: if you're attractive in character, people will like you no matter your race. Even if you are Chinese, if you're whiny or self-entitled, you'll find a million injustices to whine about and I'm quite sure people won't find you attractive. You do not want acceptance; you already have it...you want to be seen as a potential partner by everyone you're interested in and no, you can't get that no matter what; none of us can. 

[Guest passerby]

The only "discrimination" or "oppression" here would be refusing to date you. I don't think we Chinese treat any non-Chinese differently as friends, at work or school. I acknowledge your need to vent your frustrations, so please carry on. 

[Guest Guest v]

Go to a country where you are minority then you would know the feelings.2

[btmslut]

Honestly in my younger days i was afraid of indians. Malays were ok to me. One day in Rairua (thats quite a while ago if you can imagine) i was in the darkroom sucking a really sizeable cock. I wrapped him up and put him in me. It hurt quite a lot initially then it was heavenly after the initial pain. We felt hands all over us which was quite distracting to him (i was seeing stars and if you read my posts, i do love an audience). He took my hand and led me to a cubicle and i was shocked to see  he was a smooth inidian. No more indian protests after that! Unfortunately, i do find indians more forceful and they just like to ram it in. Need to prelube and loosen myself up beforehand if im meeting one. 

 

Chinese, well i think theyre cute (im chinese myself)  but my experiences were not good, one actually stopped midway and asked me for money!!! What the hell!! Not that i'll turn down a prc if he needs me...

[Guest 72%dark]

You are still unable to respond to the substantive points in my original post (eg, the existence of a systematic preference hierarchy and what it suggests about race relations in Sg), and still unable to defend the faulty logic in your original reply. So instead, you're attempting to shift the argument away by casting aspersions on my character and motives, suggesting that they undermine my points, imputing positions that I don't actually adopt, and attempting to impose your own framing on the issue, all of which are logical fallacies or rhetorical evasions.

 

Your use of phrases like "victim mentality", "whiny" and "self-entitled" betray your judgmental framing; by this 'logic', anyone who points out that a group they belong to has endured discrimination and that they find it distressing has a "victim mentality", is "whining", and appealing for more equitable treatment betrays "self-entitlement". The same charge could be leveled against any woman who complains about a glass ceiling, any disabled person who laments the lack of accessibility in public places/amenities, and so on. But a moment's thought should make it obvious that it's the very people who've borne the brunt of discrimination who are most likely to give voice to the issue, not those who are unaffected. If people who are negatively affected by something don't speak up because they're afraid of being accused of having a "victim mentality", then an improvement in the circumstances would never come about. Your framing attempts to undermine my points not by logic but by attempting to discredit my character and motives and therefore hoping that my points would be vitiated by association.

 

You say, "if you're attractive in character, people will like you no matter your race". I'm sure this is true in theory, but it's a moot point for all the people out there who filter out members of other races before they even have a chance to get to know a person's character. All those disclaimers like "Chinese only/preferred" etc are filters. And of course there are also people who say that someone's looks are a veto factor, so even if they could appreciate the character of a person of another race, if they don't fancy the looks of that person because of his race… then it's a moot point again anyway.

 

Then you accuse me of wanting "to be seen as a potential partner by everyone you're interested in". Actually, in some sense, everyone wants to be seen as a potential partner by the people they're interested in; it's just that race-based preferences are a factor for some but not others. 

 

But in any case, notice that in none of my posts (fn.1) on this topic have I ever appealed to anyone to act against their preferences. My appeals have actually always been for something else, namely for people to stop trying to shut out the voices that highlight this issue, and to try to see and empathize with the point of view of those affected. My goal in carrying on the discussion is for societal change someday, and not to snag a BF. I certainly don't bother trying to change any individual's race preference; there are members of BW who can attest that nothing ends the conversation with me more quickly than asking about my race.

 

Then you attempt to trivialize the issue and underplay its wider applicability by implying that this debate is merely a way for me to vent my frustrations, and by claiming that "The only 'discrimination' or 'oppression' here would be refusing to date you".

 

First, it's not just about me. I merely admitted to being one among the many who have felt the effects first-hand. Second, race-based preferences in dating are merely one symptom of a larger malaise. The fact that this forum discussion has largely focused on the dating/sexual attraction angle doesn't mean that that's all (and in fact, I've made this point before too). Even the participants of the survey to which I alluded in my original post admitted that racial intolerance remains a lingering issue in Sg, so if you honestly believe that there truly is no racial discrimination in Sg, you must be willfully blind.

 

Third, because in the area of sexual attraction specifically it's always tempting to draw (over and over again) a parallel between race and body type preferences, let me remind everyone why race as a trait has always been troubling when it's used to exclude people—because race is not only a trait we're born with and have no choice about, it's also thoroughly immutable (and unconcealable)—unlike physique, which we have some measure of control over.

 

---

Fn.1: 

 

On 20 September 2016 at 8:08 PM, Guest passerby said:

 

Whatever you've read into what I said, I think our opinions and replies speak more about ourselves and our world views than about reality. I personally don't like the victim mentality and do not like to see things through gender or racial glasses. You are who you are and I speak based on experience when I say: if you're attractive in character, people will like you no matter your race. Even if you are Chinese, if you're whiny or self-entitled, you'll find a million injustices to whine about and I'm quite sure people won't find you attractive. You do not want acceptance; you already have it...you want to be seen as a potential partner by everyone you're interested in and no, you can't get that no matter what; none of us can. 

 

On 20 September 2016 at 8:18 PM, Guest passerby said:

The only "discrimination" or "oppression" here would be refusing to date you. I don't think we Chinese treat any non-Chinese differently as friends, at work or school. I acknowledge your need to vent your frustrations, so please carry on. 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by 72%dark
Hyperlinks added

[Guest nice guy]

己所不欲，勿施于人。

 

The line between preference and racism is very thing and sometimes difficult to determine. Never thought having a racial preference was something bad until the same was applied to me in Japan and Australia. Who knew looking for fun could be so difficult? Suddenly, being Chinese is not desirable. Suddenly, I am insecure.  While I used to roll my eyes at those who claimed to be 'mixed' in Sg, I found myself doing the exact thing just to be accepted overseas. Suddenly, I am 1/4 white. Suddenly, I am half Japanese. How pathetic I was. Just so that a random stranger will pay attention to me? So now I understand, and I try not to be less of an asshole.

[Guest nice guy]

very thin*

[fab]

19 minutes ago, Guest nice guy said:

己所不欲，勿施于人。

 

The line between preference and racism is very thing and sometimes difficult to determine. ......

 

Preference is about liking while racial discrimination is about hatred, totally 2 different things.

 

Much as discrimination (of any kind) is wrong, it exists. If one can't deal with it, go to a place where one is majority. Else learn to deal with it. 

 

[Guest 男人不壞我不愛]

It's only frivolous ONS sex that's not important to start with. It's like saying use left hand to jo or right hand to jo, which is better? Who cares? Why so serious over such inconsequential matter?

 

I'm Chinese and I've indirectly told some Ang Mos that I don't like Ang Mo. Do they call me racist? Ang Mos in Western countries are the majority. That means there's minorities that like Chinese, they are still a big group, given they have such big populations. I don't need the whole Ang Mo gay population to like me.

 

Those who like me as Chinese are already quite knowledgeable in Chinese culture and civilisation and they use these to pick me up as conversation starter.

[Guest 72%dark]

38 minutes ago, fab said:

 

Preference is about liking while racial discrimination is about hatred, totally 2 different things.

 

Much as discrimination (of any kind) is wrong, it exists. If one can't deal with it, go to a place where one is majority. Else learn to deal with it. 

 

 

Ah, the old “if you don't like it you can just fuck off” argument.

 

By this logic, women who were born in countries with poor gender equality (eg the middle east, India, Japan, etc etc) should all just leave their birthplace and found a women-only nation of their own (call it Amazon or Lesbos for giggles perhaps). By this logic, post-racist multicultural societies would never become a reality; instead we would all segregate ourselves along racial lines, one nation for every race. And when the majority takes it upon itself to realize this vision, we have ethnic cleansing… Sudan, Kosovo, Nazi Germany, etc...

 

Obviously we don't have that in Sg, but it's this kind of mentality, and the inability to empathize, that eventually leads to it. 

 

 

 

[numchucks]

Just healthy debate and I’m all for differing views. But why should we view twinks as “individual characteristics”? It should not be viewed any more differently as gender, race, physical disability, religion etc. We should be viewed as humans. Period.

And there is also a systematic preference for these “characteristics” – just take a look at tall, good looking people. There is already widespread preference for them in the general society.  So these “characteristics” are no different from race… gender… physical disabilities…etc etc etc.

The fact that I am attracted to white chubs – doesn’t mean that I have racial or “characteristic” prejudice against the opposite, eg Chinese twinks. 

We know preference exists, prejudice exists.

But don’t confuse the two and worse, don’t try to justify your own preference for “individual characteristics” when you make your own life partner choices. 

So eventually when you choose a partner of a similar race but of a certain “characteristic”, by your argument, that makes you “characteristic”-prejudiced as well – when in actual fact, it’s just your preference.
 

On 9/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, 72%dark said:

 

Your argument has already been made a million times on BW, but since I don't recall anyone else pointing out its flaws, let me do so here (at the risk of digressing from the topic of this thread); if nothing else so I copy and paste the reply the next time someone repeats your point.

 

A preference for twinks is not actually a good analogy. The crucial difference is that twink/non-twink preference seems to be truly an individual characteristic; when we look at the population as a whole there is little reason to believe that twinks are systematically preferred or disliked compared to other 'types'.

 

Not so with race-based 'preferences'. In the Singapore context there is a clear preference hierarchy (and thus, asymmetry): a Chinese Singaporean is less likely to interested in a non-Chinese Singaporean than vice versa, and so on. I think every Singaporean knows this on some level, it's just whether we're honest enough to admit it. But if you don't believe me, the ST recently reported on a study about attitudes to marrying someone outside one's own racial group, and insofar as 'preferences' among gay men mirror those of society at large, the findings basically corroborate my observation above.

 

In other words, a person's racial 'preference' is not entirely an individual quirk but is symptomatic of some larger societal issue. And therein lies the problem. When someone says, "I'm not racist just because I happen to prefer someone of a certain race," my reply is, "I'm not accusing you of making a conscious effort to discriminate against members of certain races, so I wouldn't necessarily label you a 'racist' per se. But the fact that you act according to a preference that is systematic on a societal level means that in some sense you are complicit in a pattern of discrimination, which can operate even if its individual participants don't consciously choose to perpetuate it, and even if on an intellectual level they consider the nett result abhorrent." 

 

And each time someone attempts to rationalize their 'individual' race-based 'preference' and it goes unchallenged, it's a lost opportunity for reflection and examination of the deeper issues that are so frequently swept under the rug, such as why those preferences exist and what it means for those who get the shorter end of the stick because of them.

 

So for a change, instead of asking someone of the race you disprefer "not to take (it) personally", don't take it personally when someone points out that race-based preferences in Sg are troubling, and don't rush to a hasty defense. Because someone who truly isn't racist would presumably be concerned about the welfare of all races and not just their own. =)

 

[Guest Addicted]

On 21 September 2016 at 10:53 AM, btmslut said:

Honestly in my younger days i was afraid of indians. Malays were ok to me. One day in Rairua (thats quite a while ago if you can imagine) i was in the darkroom sucking a really sizeable cock. I wrapped him up and put him in me. It hurt quite a lot initially then it was heavenly after the initial pain. We felt hands all over us which was quite distracting to him (i was seeing stars and if you read my posts, i do love an audience). He took my hand and led me to a cubicle and i was shocked to see  he was a smooth inidian. No more indian protests after that! Unfortunately, i do find indians more forceful and they just like to ram it in. Need to prelube and loosen myself up beforehand if im meeting one. 

 

Chinese, well i think theyre cute (im chinese myself)  but my experiences were not good, one actually stopped midway and asked me for money!!! What the hell!! Not that i'll turn down a prc if he needs me...

Ooohhhhh, I could hot rod you! 

[Guest Abnn]

I had a couple of Indians, one is bollywood fair skin type who had big cock and dark skin ones who got small cock, they are both only like to be service by willing mouth, boring.

[Guest willing]

When someone asks for a race preference what do they actually mean? what if I am malay but look extremely chinese? or indian but look extremely malay? so if you wanted a chinese person but got a chinese person who looks like malay/indian you would reject? But the thing is you asked for the race and that person told you his race. 

[fab]

7 minutes ago, Guest willing said:

When someone asks for a race preference what do they actually mean? what if I am malay but look extremely chinese? or indian but look extremely malay? so if you wanted a chinese person but got a chinese person who looks like malay/indian you would reject? But the thing is you asked for the race and that person told you his race. 

 

It means if u manage to get the guy of the race u like,  good for u. If u don't, stop whining n quit the minority victim game. "He rejects me, must be i m too fair/dark for him." 

[Guest Addicted]

On 14 September 2016 at 4:56 PM, Ener said:

Y PRC cocks only? Cause the food they eat? Their cock got the mala kind of taste? Tongue and mouth will have burning sensation? 

I showed one of my PRC men this and he laughed SO loudly... Then I went down on him in delight! 

[Guest passerby]

17 hours ago, 72%dark said:

You are still unable to respond to the substantive points in my original post (eg, the existence of a systematic preference hierarchy and what it suggests about race relations in Sg), and still unable to defend the faulty logic in your original reply. So instead, you're attempting to shift the argument away by casting aspersions on my character and motives, suggesting that they undermine my points, imputing positions that I don't actually adopt, and attempting to impose your own framing on the issue, all of which are logical fallacies or rhetorical evasions.

 

Your use of phrases like "victim mentality", "whiny" and "self-entitled" betray your judgmental framing; by this 'logic', anyone who points out that a group they belong to has endured discrimination and that they find it distressing has a "victim mentality", is "whining", and appealing for more equitable treatment betrays "self-entitlement". The same charge could be leveled against any woman who complains about a glass ceiling, any disabled person who laments the lack of accessibility in public places/amenities, and so on. But a moment's thought should make it obvious that it's the very people who've borne the brunt of discrimination who are most likely to give voice to the issue, not those who are unaffected. If people who are negatively affected by something don't speak up because they're afraid of being accused of having a "victim mentality", then an improvement in the circumstances would never come about. Your framing attempts to undermine my points not by logic but by attempting to discredit my character and motives and therefore hoping that my points would be vitiated by association.

 

You say, "if you're attractive in character, people will like you no matter your race". I'm sure this is true in theory, but it's a moot point for all the people out there who filter out members of other races before they even have a chance to get to know a person's character. All those disclaimers like "Chinese only/preferred" etc are filters. And of course there are also people who say that someone's looks are a veto factor, so even if they could appreciate the character of a person of another race, if they don't fancy the looks of that person because of his race… then it's a moot point again anyway.

 

Then you accuse me of wanting "to be seen as a potential partner by everyone you're interested in". Actually, in some sense, everyone wants to be seen as a potential partner by the people they're interested in; it's just that race-based preferences are a factor for some but not others. 

 

But in any case, notice that in none of my posts (fn.1) on this topic have I ever appealed to anyone to act against their preferences. My appeals have actually always been for something else, namely for people to stop trying to shut out the voices that highlight this issue, and to try to see and empathize with the point of view of those affected. My goal in carrying on the discussion is for societal change someday, and not to snag a BF. I certainly don't bother trying to change any individual's race preference; there are members of BW who can attest that nothing ends the conversation with me more quickly than asking about my race.

 

Then you attempt to trivialize the issue and underplay its wider applicability by implying that this debate is merely a way for me to vent my frustrations, and by claiming that "The only 'discrimination' or 'oppression' here would be refusing to date you".

 

First, it's not just about me. I merely admitted to being one among the many who have felt the effects first-hand. Second, race-based preferences in dating are merely one symptom of a larger malaise. The fact that this forum discussion has largely focused on the dating/sexual attraction angle doesn't mean that that's all (and in fact, I've made this point before too). Even the participants of the survey to which I alluded in my original post admitted that racial intolerance remains a lingering issue in Sg, so if you honestly believe that there truly is no racial discrimination in Sg, you must be willfully blind.

 

Third, because in the area of sexual attraction specifically it's always tempting to draw (over and over again) a parallel between race and body type preferences, let me remind everyone why race as a trait has always been troubling when it's used to exclude people—because race is not only a trait we're born with and have no choice about, it's also thoroughly immutable (and unconcealable)—unlike physique, which we have some measure of control over.

 

---

Fn.1: 

 

 

 

I disagree but I'm not keen on taking the time to rebut your points; they are correct based on your emotional premises, which I reject. Just move on with your life already. If you die now you'll turn into either a 冤死鬼 (ghost with grievance) or 厉鬼 (malicious ghost) so I hope you find some light and peace. Being at peace with the world doesn't mean we cannot recognise the injustices and ridiculous things that are going on, but it allows us to make a positive difference rather than do acts which will only lead to further imbalance (an eye for an eye and the world goes blind), etc etc aiya seriously don't you have a boyfriend or friends to spend time with? Bye!

[Guest Guest V]

Most of the majority here got the superiority complex. Sorry the truth hurts.

[Guest USA]

72% Dark, I applaud you for your patience in replying all these. I'm an American-born Chinese guy and my bf is a local Indian guy. We're in an open relationship. When I'm on grindr, I get all sorts of racist comments about my partner when we look for a threesome.

 

Where I come from, the Asian American community bands together. Imagine my shock when I came here to Singapore to find sexual racism amongst our own Asians. Mind you, back in the States, I was at the bottom of the hierarchy. The only white guys who would sleep with me are furry grandpas and I'm often subjected to racist taunts and stereotypes.

 

Until you've been in a position as a minority, you would never understand. And because you don't understand, the least you could do is shut up and listen.

[fab]

I wonder if peter le has been discriminated as an asian american.

[Guest Guest]

9 hours ago, Guest 男人不壞我不愛 said:

 

 

Those who like me as Chinese are already quite knowledgeable in Chinese culture and civilisation and they use these to pick me up as conversation starter.

 

And then found out that Singaporeans are so lacking in knowledge relating to Chinese culture and stuffs, and speaking singlish accented English, such that Singaporeans are known not as the banana man, but the banana-skin man (hollow all the way inside and not even white).

[Guest Guest V]

1 hour ago, Guest USA said:

72% Dark, I applaud you for your patience in replying all these. I'm an American-born Chinese guy and my bf is a local Indian guy. We're in an open relationship. When I'm on grindr, I get all sorts of racist comments about my partner when we look for a threesome.

 

Where I come from, the Asian American community bands together. Imagine my shock when I came here to Singapore to find sexual racism amongst our own Asians. Mind you, back in the States, I was at the bottom of the hierarchy. The only white guys who would sleep with me are furry grandpas and I'm often subjected to racist taunts and stereotypes.

 

Until you've been in a position as a minority, you would never understand. And because you don't understand, the least you could do is shut up and listen.

This is something they will deny being racist. Typical. If u ask them they will just say it's their preference.

[Guest USA]

9 minutes ago, Guest Guest V said:

This is something they will deny being racist. Typical. If u ask them they will just say it's their preference.

 

It's the exact same thing happening over here and it's simply bullshit. If you happen to visit the states (that's not NY or San Francisco) you'll see "No Azn" on Grindr a lot.

Snap out of it mofos and get with the 21st century.

[wilfgene]

On 9/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, 72%dark said:

 

Your argument has already been made a million times on BW, but since I don't recall anyone else pointing out its flaws, let me do so here (at the risk of digressing from the topic of this thread); if nothing else so I copy and paste the reply the next time someone repeats your point.

 

A preference for twinks is not actually a good analogy. The crucial difference is that twink/non-twink preference seems to be truly an individual characteristic; when we look at the population as a whole there is little reason to believe that twinks are systematically preferred or disliked compared to other 'types'.

 

Not so with race-based 'preferences'. In the Singapore context there is a clear preference hierarchy (and thus, asymmetry): a Chinese Singaporean is less likely to interested in a non-Chinese Singaporean than vice versa, and so on. I think every Singaporean knows this on some level, it's just whether we're honest enough to admit it. But if you don't believe me, the ST recently reported on a study about attitudes to marrying someone outside one's own racial group, and insofar as 'preferences' among gay men mirror those of society at large, the findings basically corroborate my observation above.

 

In other words, a person's racial 'preference' is not entirely an individual quirk but is symptomatic of some larger societal issue. And therein lies the problem. When someone says, "I'm not racist just because I happen to prefer someone of a certain race," my reply is, "I'm not accusing you of making a conscious effort to discriminate against members of certain races, so I wouldn't necessarily label you a 'racist' per se. But the fact that you act according to a preference that is systematic on a societal level means that in some sense you are complicit in a pattern of discrimination, which can operate even if its individual participants don't consciously choose to perpetuate it, and even if on an intellectual level they consider the nett result abhorrent." 

 

And each time someone attempts to rationalize their 'individual' race-based 'preference' and it goes unchallenged, it's a lost opportunity for reflection and examination of the deeper issues that are so frequently swept under the rug, such as why those preferences exist and what it means for those who get the shorter end of the stick because of them.

 

So for a change, instead of asking someone of the race you disprefer "not to take (it) personally", don't take it personally when someone points out that race-based preferences in Sg are troubling, and don't rush to a hasty defense. Because someone who truly isn't racist would presumably be concerned about the welfare of all races and not just their own. =)

I am praying for your understanding of only You fucking me.

Since I'll be impotent, with You.

Mind You, I'm an atheist.

 

Thanks for another impressive post.

[Guest Disguised]

12 hours ago, Guest Guest V said:

This is something they will deny being racist. Typical. If u ask them they will just say it's their preference.

 

There is a reason why the word preference exist in English in the first place, it's created to disguised racism.

[Guest Glyph]

^ Not entirely true, but preference has, undeniably, always been a form of bias. Though, a bias doesn't necessarily have to be prejudice.

 

A bias can go both ways, either liking something more than others or disliking something as compared to the rest. Prejudice, however, is usually only used in a negative way. Someone with a racial preference/bias would be saying something along the lines of, "prefer [insert race] / similar race", and one who is prejudiced against a particular race would be saying something that a Guest above has already mentioned, "NO Azn".

 

We all have to agree though, that any form of bias generally leads to unfairness (if you actually paid any attention to posts by @72%dark, that's like 90% of what he's going on about). But only prejudice results in discrimination (the act of prejudice itself). It's also right to say that one may have preferences without prejudice (like a mother's love for her child), but you can never be prejudiced without preference(s).

[Guest nonazn]

Actually most of those who put no asians are referring to those dark skinned ones like Pakistanis, Indians, Thais etc. They are considered the laborers. Fair skinned East asians are considered Orientals.

 

Many of them chat with me and I told them I'm Asian also. That's where they told me.

 

Don't blame me for their prejudice because there are many such laborers in the West.

 

[Guest Guest V]

Fair skin orientals ? You are called slid eyes or chinks over there.

[Guest Cool]

So those Chinese in Malaysia who couldn't get laid with Malays or those Non-Indians in India who couldn't find a partner because of the "racism" may also be full of angst. What do you suggest? Fight it out? 

 

If gays in Singapore are so bigoted then I really wouldn't even want to make friends with non-Chinese gays anymore. What's the point of trying to have a sincere friendship / relationship with someone who already severely judges your preferences for a partner?

 

Say I am a tall handsome Chinese. I may want someone around my height and looks. Should all the short Chinese cry discrimination? Most people want to see some sort of reflection of themselves in a partner, or sympathetic traits and qualities. If the other party is too disparate physically or psychologically then only time can draw them Tgt. Not everyone must take the time out to give someone they're not interested in a chance. What is this twisted idea of equality?

 

Nonetheless I can still understand what people feel. If people of one race keep rejecting me I would feel pissed and blame it on my race if I can, but if I can't, I might reluctantly realise it could be my looks, character, attitude etc. So yeah I get it but no, I'm not going to buy Alibaba curry shaker fries instead of macs seaweed shaker fries simply because Alibaba is not popular and in desperate need of business. I like macs seaweed shaker fries dammit stop forcing me to like other food!!!

[Guest Terminology]

On September 23, 2016 at 6:04 AM, Guest nonazn said:

Actually most of those who put no asians are referring to those dark skinned ones like Pakistanis, Indians, Thais etc. They are considered the laborers. Fair skinned East Asians are considered Orientals. Many of them chat with me and I told them I'm Asian also. That's where they told me. Don't blame me for their prejudice because there are many such laborers in the West.

 

That is based on British English. Americans refer to Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. as Asians -- but -- Indians, Pakis, Banglas, etc. as South Asians. The word Oriental is considered offensive in America and is almost never used there nowadays. So when an American says he is looking for an Asian, he expects somebody whose home or ancestral country can range from Myanmar all the way East to the Pacific Islands.

 

If an American says he's looking for an Asian -- but an Indian, Paki, Bangla, etc. responds -- he will probably not be interested because he did not specifically ask for a South Asian even though those places are technically in Asia. On the other hand, if an American requests No Asians, he probably will not be interested in people from anywhere in Asia -- regardless of whether from China or Thailand or India or Saudi Arabia.