Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[Guest]

On 12/13/2015 at 11:18 PM, Nightingale said:

Something is wrong with your reasoning or typing.  To be religious means to be pious / devout, to devote more attention to religion.  So if mainland Chinese do not go to temples or church weekly, then they are not considered devout by your so-called eastern standards or western standards or whatever.  So it's wrong to say China is religious.

 

Yes, Buddhism originated as a philosophy but has transformed into a religion, just like the way Taoism did.  But Buddhism is never a sect of Hinduism.  Hinduism deals with gods & goddesses whereas Buddhism does not.

 

So how do you judge a term as being "stupid"?  The term "culture of the east" is too vague.  Do you see everything in black & white - "culture of the west" & "culture of the east"?  Whatever you are getting at makes no sense.

 

And why are you so obsessed with the term "paki", which bears no relevance to this thread at all?  You're weird.

 

1) Beliefs of Hinduism vary widely. India is somewhat more hard-line that China, but both are heavily influenced by religion. If you look at Japan, and the way they talk of religion, then you'll understand my thinking.

 

2) Hinduism has schools which advocate that God does not exist.

 

3) I use it to separate out the Abraham religions. "Hinduism" is also a stupid term used to cover a random collection of ideas that aren't really considered a "religion" in the eyes of most Indians.

 

4) It's an adjective that I'm using to describe "Pakistaniness".

[Guest Guest]

All you do is claim and guess.

 

The Bible is not the infallible word of the Christian God. A simple search on the Internet will show many websites which debunk Christianity and explain the errors, contradictions, ambiguities in the Bible.

 

The Christian God has a communication problem. There are numerous interpretations of the Bible and thus the numerous denominations. Even you have your own way to "explain away the gay." Why can't an almighty God communicate clearly?

 

In addition, we don't know who wrote the books of the Bible and we cannot trace the identities of the authors.

 

How do you know that all religions lead to the same God? Why do you choose only Christianity? Why don't you choose one or more of the other religions? Are you doing your own interpretation? Isn't Jesus the only way to God?

 

It is likelier that humans create god(s) than god(s) create humans.

 

There is insufficient evidence to prove that Christianity is true.

 

"Immaculate conception" is a Catholic term that refers to Mary being born without Original Sin. The birth of Jesus is the "virgin birth" and the Bible does not say that Jesus was conceived via cloning or in vitro fertilization. Neither does the Bible say that miracles are undiscovered technology (your own interpretation again?).

[chojin]

What a broad topic, made even broader by everyone's contributions.

I am a Christian and I have struggled with a lot of different types of sins in the past. Slowly they are falling away the more I know and experience of God, the more free I become.

I'm going to try to be as on the point as I can. 

Christians are called to love ALL, no matter what the sin is. We are not called to judge the man, but we can and are to judge the action. Jesus didn't condemn people, but He DID say, "Go, and sin no more."

Homosexuality is a sin. There are many sins. Homosexuality is just one of many. God does love gay people. He loves us all and wants what is best for us all. As Christians, we are called to be like Jesus. Jesus clearly loved the sinners. If we remain in sin, without repentance we can not be forgiven and cleaned from our sin. If we die in a constant state of unrepentant sin, we can not be in the presence of God. This is the same for alcoholics, fornicators, adulterers, thieves, drug paddlers, etc. But God has made a way for us to be free and enjoy everlasting life. He sent is only begotten Son to earth. His Son, Jesus became fully man, and resisted sin completely. He was innocent, and suffered greatly. Every curse was placed on to Jesus. He suffered greatly and died. He rose again and redeemed us back to God. 

 

Basically we have all committed a crime (sin). God, being just, had to set a punishment for our crimes (sins). That punishment is death. Jesus, being perfect and innocent paid for our crimes. Our sentence was placed on Him and we are set free. If someone commits a crime and they get fined and another pays their fine, then the person fined is then free. In a similar way, we are free. But when we commit a crime (sin), we must again apologise (repent), so that we can be forgiven of our crimes. God knows our hearts and sincerity is what counts here. Once we are forgiven, those crimes are forgotten. Through Christ, we have freedom. As we know Him better, we will naturally become more like Him and be more and more free from the desire to commit crimes (sin). But, we will inevitably fail. Thankfully we have a savoir!

Another point I'd like to make is that there has been recent scientific studies that prove that no one is born gay, bi, trans, pan, fluid, etc.  
Here is a small quote about the study, 

Quote

 

Two top Johns Hopkins University psychiatrists say there is insufficient evidence to conclude people are born with heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual attractions.

The understanding of sexual orientation as an innate, biologically fixed property of human beings — the idea that people are 'born that way' — is not supported by scientific evidence," Drs. Lawrence Mayer and Paul McHugh conclude in their new study, "Sexuality and Gender".

"While minor differences in the brain structures and brain activity between homosexual and heterosexual individuals have been identified … such neurobiological findings do not demonstrate whether [they] are innate or are the result of environmental and psychological factors."

 

In addition, studies comparing brain structures of transgender and cisgender individuals demonstrate "weak correlations between brain structure and cross-gender identification" and do not provide any evidence for a neurobiological basis for cross-gender identification, they say.

 

There are other findings that studied identical male twins. These twins have the same genetic make up, but yet only 20% of identical twins are both gay, leading researchers to believe that there must be causes which are not inherited. The full article is here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/homosexuality-may-be-triggered-by-environment-after-birth/

 

I often see comments that science proves that God doesn't exist. I love science. The more I understand science, the more I see it pointing to evidence of God. Throughout history we see that many of the greatest scientists believe in God, even in today's modern world.

Galileo was Christian. " “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them. He would not require us to deny sense and reason in physical matters which are set before our eyes and minds by direct experience or necessary demonstrations.”

 

Sir Francis Bacon is known as the founder of the scientific method. " “God never wrought miracle to convince atheism, because his ordinary works convince it. It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion. For while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them, confederate and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.”

 

Maria Mitchell, America's first female astronmer said, “Scientific investigations, pushed on and on, will reveal new ways in which God works, and bring us deeper revelations of the wholly unknown.”

Francic Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health wrote, " I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God’s majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.”

 

Even Charles Darwin went back and forth on the question of God's existence.  I may say that the impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God; but whether this is an argument of real value, I have never been able to decide. I am aware that if we admit a first cause, the mind still craves to know whence it came and how it arose. Nor can I overlook the difficulty from the immense amount of suffering through the world. I am, also, induced to defer to a certain extent to the judgment of the many able men who have fully believed in God; but here again I see how poor an argument this is. The safest conclusion seems to be that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man’s intellect; but man can do his duty.”

 

Dr. Craig, a noted mathematician has said, "
1. If God did not exist, the applicability of mathematics would be just a happy coincidence.
2. The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence.
3. Therefore, God exists."
Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/god-and-math#ixzz4M70jXnSW

 

Sorry, for the long post. There is so much to say on this subject. 

God bless everyone here.

 

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Old fart....Yawn...

 

 

[Guest Atheist]

Creesteans are at it again. Pls don't infect the world and let it fester with your sick ideologies.

[Steve5380]

6 hours ago, chojin said:

I am a Christian and I have struggled with a lot of different types of sins in the past. Slowly they are falling away the more I know and experience of God, the more free I become.  I'm going to try to be as on the point as I can. 
--------

God bless everyone here.

 

I too will be as much on the point as I can.

 

It does not speak well of yourself if you had to struggle with SINS.

Because it means that you didn't have the intelligence to challenge the DOCTRINE in the first place.

If you could have recognized that the Christian doctrine is a bunch of nonsense, 

starting with the childish fairy tale of Genesis, continuing with the childish superstition of "miracles" like a resurrection,

and ending with the super childish desire for an eternal heaven (who wants a sanctimonious heaven forever?),

if you can discard the enticements of a speculative religion that wants to make you an abject sheep,

then you will not have to pay any attention to stupid SINS because they are as false as the doctrine.

 

If you want to be really FREE, then you will recognize that nobody knows anything about the religious mysteries of life,

and you will become a happy agnostic.

 

And then, if you want to bless everyone here, you will do it from YOURSELF, not from some fantasy God.

[chojin]

To answer the above questions, criticisms, and critiques:

Q: Why is homosexuality a sin?
A: There are many reasons why homosexuality is a sin. 
-Sex is a beautiful gift and expression of love with the possibility to bring forth new life to nurture in a loving family. Homosexuality has no possibility of creating new life or being a complete family. A father is irreplaceable,  a mother is irreplaceable. Two fathers can not make up for a lack of a mother. Two mothers can not make up for the lack of a father.
-You can look at the anatomy and see that male parts match female parts and are meant to be joined together. 
-The lifestyle is unhealthy. A study published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the mortality rates of homosexuals concluded that homosexuals have a significantly reduced life expectancy. Some of the reasons for this are the higher rates of STD's and AIDS among the homosexual community, as well as higher rates of cancer and mental health issues. 
-Despite the fact that the heterosexual community is at least 20 times larger in numbers than the gay community in 2011, Singapore's health ministry revealed that the number of homosexual and bisexual men diagnosed with HIV far overtakes the number in the heterosexual community.
-Research that focused on countries with a long history of gay marriage (ie Denmark, Norway) showed that married gays and lesbians have a shorter lifespan than their conventionally married counter parts by a whopping 24 years!
-Scientific studies have shown that we are not born gay. Environmental and psychological factors are what leads a person into homosexual lifestyles. 

I could go on, but I think this is enough for now to show why I believe homosexuality is sinful.
 

Q: We means who? (in regards to who has been condemned to death by sin)
A: No, we does not mean gays, we means, we; all of us. But the price has been paid and our penalty has been commuted by Jesus Christ when we accept Him as our Lord and do our best to live as He has shown us by His own example of obedience.

Q: What is the point of having a savoir when humans continue to sin? Are we waiting for another Jesus to come and save us for our sins?
A: We need a savoir because sin separates us from God who is the source of life. God is holy and sin cannot remain in His presence. In our sin, we are dying. 
-Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins. Yes, sin continues, but we have already been saved. It is up to us now to accept that saving grace, to have that death sentence commuted from us. When we submit to Jesus as our Lord and savoir and do our best to be more and more like Him, we are under His grace. When we do fall to sin, we can come before Him and repent, knowing that He will clean our sins from us and make us righteous and justified, able to stand before God. The more we obey God, the better and more free we become. We are free from worry, fear, and we know death holds no victory over us. That is true and eternal freedom. The "freedom" to indulge in all our selfish desires never brings pleasure for anything more than a brief moment. So, we go on searching and searching for that next bit of selfish pleasure. That is not freedom.

Q: So, since we are not born gay, we are able to turn straight at will? Are you gay?
A: Since we are not born gay, we can return to being straight. Yes. At will? That depends on what you mean by that. Can an alcoholic become sober at will? Can a drug addict become sober at will? How about a smoker? Can an overweight person become fit at will? Are bad habits broken at will? The answer is yes and no. Yes it can be done. No, it isn't likely to be instant. It is not a switch that can be easily turned on or off. It requires a lot of effort to change anything about ourselves; to stop smoking, to stop drinking, to lose weight, to end same sex attraction, etc.
A: I am not gay, but I have struggled with it in the past. At one point I said to myself that I was gay. I tried to believe it was just a simple thing and okay. But my heart was convicted and I knew it was wrong. I have a great love for the gay community and all those who have same sex attraction. It isn't an easy thing one way or another, no matter if you believe it to be right or wrong. I don't condemn anyone here. I understand some of what it is like, but out of love, I have to share the truth. 

The truth is that there are many, many, many gay men and women who are now straight. I recommend this link to listen to just a few http://ex-gaytruth.com/ex-gay-testimonies/ .
You can also see another here: https://youtu.be/6m0a2TFrCQE . There are lots of people who have come out of homosexuality.
 

I hope this answers some of the questions that have been asked. Everything I say is out of love, I hope it can be received as such.

 

To answer Steve5380:

You have said, "

If you want to be really FREE, then you will recognize that nobody knows anything about the religious mysteries of life,

and you will become a happy agnostic." 

I couldn't disagree more, unless you subscribe to the notion that ignorance is bliss, which I don't. 

I believe that the mysteries of life can be solved to a great degree. I believe that God has given us a sound mind to search out these mysteries. He has given us the ability to observe, to discover, to learn, etc. God has told us that We sill seek Him and find Him when we search with all our hearts -Jeremiah 29:13. Again we are told, "...Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. What father among you , if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? So, if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" - Luke 11:8-13 The Holy Spirit reveals truth. -John 16:13
Again we see that we are able to increase our understanding of all things. The wise store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin. -Proverbs 10:14
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. -Proverbs 1:7 

What God wants is a relationship with us. We are called to know Him personally. He has given us the means to find Him and know Him. I am not content to merely say that answers cannot be found, so I won't bother looking.

 

Something else to think about... What if the Bible is true? What if there really is life after death, and God does punish sin, that hell does exist and that Jesus is the only way to heaven?

We can't blame God:
He has already made it possible to be saved: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Death on the cross is one of the most horrible ways to die (read about it here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/apr/08/thisweekssciencequestions ).

 

We can't say you aren't a sinner:
Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned (Romans 5:12)

 

We can't say" "I am doing the best I can." or "I'm a good person."
We are saved by grace, through faith--and it is not from ourselves, it is the gift of God. - Ephesians 2:8
If we have lied, we are liars, if we have stolen, we are thieves, if we have cheated, or looked on someone else lustfully, we are adulterers. Would any of us call a liar, thief, adulterer, etc good? God has one standard, and that is His way; perfection. Only one lived a perfect life, and that was Jesus Christ. Only through His taking our sin and making us clean and innocent are we saved. When we believe through faith, and repent, we receive the gift of life through the grace of God.

We can't say there is plenty of time to settle the matter:
Now is the favourable time; now is the day of salvation. - 2 Corinthians 6:2 
We don't know the hour of our death and it can come suddenly, without warning. Are we ready to face death?

 

We can't say that we haven't been told:

I am sharing the news now for our benefit, and there are plenty of places to get this truth.

We may say that we don't believe all this.
What we believe doesn't change the facts. Perception is not reality. The choice of spending an eternity in heaven or hell is up to the individual. If we aren't concerned about our own soul and have no desire to be saved, then so be it. But let others read and hear and make up their own minds.

Where will we spend eternity? 
Jesus says, "Whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24). "To all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12).

This thread is about being Gay and Christian. If anyone who is gay isn't welcomed by the church with loving arms, then there are problems in that church. If any church welcomes you with loving arms, but does not share the truth with you about homosexuality, they are not loving you. 

I hope what I have written can be received with respect. I also hope it is clear that I love and respect everyone here, even if we may disagree on the matter of life and death, freedom, and salvation.

 

God is not a fantasy, He is reality.  I do my best to live by God's commandments to Love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love my neighbour as myself.

God bless us all.  

 

[Steve5380]

11 hours ago, chojin said:

To answer the above questions, criticisms, and critiques:

Q: Why is homosexuality a sin?
A: There are many reasons why homosexuality is a sin. 
-Sex is a beautiful gift and expression of love with the possibility to bring forth new life to nurture in a loving family. Homosexuality has no possibility of creating new life or being a complete family. A father is irreplaceable,  a mother is irreplaceable. Two fathers can not make up for a lack of a mother. Two mothers can not make up for the lack of a father.
-You can look at the anatomy and see that male parts match female parts and are meant to be joined together. 
-The lifestyle is unhealthy. A study published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the mortality rates of homosexuals concluded that homosexuals have a significantly reduced life expectancy. Some of the reasons for this are the higher rates of STD's and AIDS among the homosexual community, as well as higher rates of cancer and mental health issues. 
-Despite the fact that the heterosexual community is at least 20 times larger in numbers than the gay community in 2011, Singapore's health ministry revealed that the number of homosexual and bisexual men diagnosed with HIV far overtakes the number in the heterosexual community.
-Research that focused on countries with a long history of gay marriage (ie Denmark, Norway) showed that married gays and lesbians have a shorter lifespan than their conventionally married counter parts by a whopping 24 years!
-Scientific studies have shown that we are not born gay. Environmental and psychological factors are what leads a person into homosexual lifestyles. 

I could go on, but I think this is enough for now to show why I believe homosexuality is sinful.

 

I think you could go on for a long time, but you won't find a single TRUE reason for homosexuality to be intrinsically sinful.

- OF COURSE homosexuals can procreate!  Homosexuality is an inclination, an 'orientation',  not a LIMITATION.  There are countless gays and lesbians who are married and have children.  And both fathers and mothers are replaceable.  So many good people never had a father or a mother, and so many bad people come from perfect families like in the fairy tales.

- Our anatomy requires a matched set of sex organs to reproduce. (not anymore today).  But it does not prevent the sex organs to be used in other ways. 

- An unhealthy lifestyle is not an exclusivity of homosexuals.  Heterosexuals can have as much unhealthy lifestyles.  Men and women having sex with each other contract STDs all the time, and in certain places the heterosexuals are the majority with HIV.

- The shorter life span of same-sex couples is nonsense. It turns out that homosexuals in same-sex marriage have longer life spans than the single.  Look it up in:

http://www.livescience.com/27796-same-sex-marriage-mortality-rates.html

- And here the biggest deception, lie of all: "Scientific studies show that we are not born gay".

There are good reasons to believe that sexual orientation is INBORN.  But there is no proof one way or the other.

The safest criterion is to consider homosexuality a combination of genetics and environment.

 

And... throughout your long dissertation of alleged disadvantages, shortcomings of homosexuals,  you have given no proof that homosexuality is SIN.

SIN is such an idiotic, superstitious nonsense.  

One definition of sin is: "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law".

All you know about "divine law" is what was written thousands of years ago by unknown people for unknown purposes. 

[Steve5380]

19 hours ago, chojin said:

Q: What is the point of having a savoir when humans continue to sin? Are we waiting for another Jesus to come and save us for our sins?
A: We need a savoir because sin separates us from God who is the source of life. God is holy and sin cannot remain in His presence. In our sin, we are dying. 
-Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins. Yes, sin continues, but we have already been saved. It is up to us now to accept that saving grace, to have that death sentence commuted from us. When we submit to Jesus as our Lord and savoir and do our best to be more and more like Him, we are under His grace. When we do fall to sin, we can come before Him and repent, knowing that He will clean our sins from us and make us righteous and justified, able to stand before God. The more we obey God, the better and more free we become. We are free from worry, fear, and we know death holds no victory over us. That is true and eternal freedom. The "freedom" to indulge in all our selfish desires never brings pleasure for anything more than a brief moment. So, we go on searching and searching for that next bit of selfish pleasure. That is not freedom.

 

All what you tell here is a BELIEF, not a FACT. 

And it is a DUMB belief.  A savior?  Savior from what?  You write like a guy who has been hypnotized with a fairy tale. 

It does not matter that millions believe like you.  It is still a BELIEF.  And the majority of humans don't share that belief.

 

[Steve5380]

19 hours ago, chojin said:

Q: So, since we are not born gay, we are able to turn straight at will? Are you gay?
A: Since we are not born gay, we can return to being straight. Yes. At will? That depends on what you mean by that. Can an alcoholic become sober at will? Can a drug addict become sober at will? How about a smoker? Can an overweight person become fit at will? Are bad habits broken at will? The answer is yes and no. Yes it can be done. No, it isn't likely to be instant. It is not a switch that can be easily turned on or off. It requires a lot of effort to change anything about ourselves; to stop smoking, to stop drinking, to lose weight, to end same sex attraction, etc.
A: I am not gay, but I have struggled with it in the past. At one point I said to myself that I was gay. I tried to believe it was just a simple thing and okay. But my heart was convicted and I knew it was wrong. I have a great love for the gay community and all those who have same sex attraction. It isn't an easy thing one way or another, no matter if you believe it to be right or wrong. I don't condemn anyone here. I understand some of what it is like, but out of love, I have to share the truth. 
The truth is that there are many, many, many gay men and women who are now straight. I recommend this link to listen to just a few http://ex-gaytruth.com/ex-gay-testimonies/ .
You can also see another here: https://youtu.be/6m0a2TFrCQE . There are lots of people who have come out of homosexuality.

 

Your "truth" is FALSE.  Like is all you wrote here. 

This "reeducation" of gays to make them straight has been proven to be false.

And you want to share your false "truth" out of love?  Kind of love!

And...  why have you "struggled with it" if you are not gay?

It sounds to me like YOU ARE gay, and you go for all those fantasies to try to convince yourself that you are not.

We gays who accept our nature feel sorry for you.

[Steve5380]

19 hours ago, chojin said:

I believe that the mysteries of life can be solved to a great degree. I believe that God has given us a sound mind to search out these mysteries. He has given us the ability to observe, to discover, to learn, etc. God has told us that We sill seek Him and find Him when we search with all our hearts -Jeremiah 29:13. Again we are told, "...Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

 

 

And why you need to cite the Bible to try to prove that the Bible is real?  

Such is a circular reasoning.

 

There is not a shred of evidence that all what you hold as absolutely true is more than a fantasy.

If you enjoy your fantasy, this is fine.

But if you try to convince others, like us, that your fantasy is real, you are being deceptive.

Even if you honestly BELIEVE you fantasy, you cannot push it as a TRUTH, but as your belief.

You have been deceived.

And you have been told to pass your deception to others.

This world is a dangerous place.

We can be deceived even by those who come to us with 'holy' words.

We need to defend ourselves with our reason, intuition, skepticism, and a lot of common sense.

[Steve5380]

37 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

Of course we should blame God.  He's omnipotent, remember?  He created everything, knowing well in advance how people are going to behave, what they will turn out to be.  So why thank God for his food and good harvests but not thank him for the typhoons, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods that have taken innocent lives including young children?  Why do you cherrypick?

 

Your answer shows the reason why the Abrahamic religions need the DEVIL.  

The DEVIL is absolutely necessary to protect the God from any responsibility for the evil in the world.

And this is the reason why the DEVIL is kept alive and not defeated by the almighty God.

This God needs a fall guy, at least in front of his human believers.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Steve5380

[Guest No sin]

If I can choose, I rather be gay than become a sinner.  What's the point of believing in a religion that condemned everyone as sinners?  

[Guest Belief and truth]

9 minutes ago, Guest No sin said:

If I can choose, I rather be gay than become a sinner.  What's the point of believing in a religion that condemned everyone as sinners?  

The point is that we believe because it is the truth, not because the idea fits better for me or otherwise. 

 

The truth will not be less of a truth just because I choose not to believe.

 

[Guest Atheist]

2 hours ago, Guest Belief and truth said:

The point is that we believe because it is the truth, not because the idea fits better for me or otherwise. 

 

The truth will not be less of a truth just because I choose not to believe.

 

And how do you know what you believe is the truth? Or for you maybe it is blind faith. But to convince others of "truth" you need some evidence at least. Where's the evidence? 

[Steve5380]

10 hours ago, Guest Belief and truth said:

The point is that we believe because it is the truth, not because the idea fits better for me or otherwise. 

The truth will not be less of a truth just because I choose not to believe.

 

What you believe is not necessarily a truth.  If it were, then "belief" would not be necessary.

We don't "believe" that the sun is in the sky. We have all the proof of it we need.

 

A belief is not necessarily a "choice". 

If one does not believe, there are usually reasons for that.

One does not, and SHOULD not believe in something that sounds stupid and is unfounded.

Religions usually fall in this category.

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, Nightingale said:

http://9gag.com/gag/avnjojE

 

 

LOL!  A hilarious variation on the biblical theme.

 

If there were any truth in any divinity from the old biblical stories,

it would be so obvious as the force of gravity that keeps us down on the surface of the planet.

[Guest Sinless]

13 hours ago, Nightingale said:

Schizophrenics also claim that what they hear is also the truth.  So how do you know their hearing "God asks me to murder you because He says you are Demon." is true or not?  Want to know the answer?  Ask the scientist.

 

http://9gag.com/gag/avnjojE

 

 

10 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

What you believe is not necessarily a truth.  If it were, then "belief" would not be necessary.

We don't "believe" that the sun is in the sky. We have all the proof of it we need.

 

A belief is not necessarily a "choice". 

If one does not believe, there are usually reasons for that.

One does not, and SHOULD not believe in something that sounds stupid and is unfounded.

Religions usually fall in this category.

 

Are both of you trying to convert him (Chojin) from a Christian to an Atheist ?  

As long as he is comfortable being gay and accept that being gay is normal and not sinful, let him keep his Christian faith.  

[Steve5380]

54 minutes ago, Guest Sinless said:

Are both of you trying to convert him (Chojin) from a Christian to an Atheist ?  

As long as he is comfortable being gay and accept that being gay is normal and not sinful, let him keep his Christian faith.  

 

What makes you think that the intention here is to convert believers into non believers?  Every person is free to make up his own mind.

 

Myself I counter religious arguments that I perceive as false.  

No judgement on those who hold such arguments.

It is not a person's fault to have been brain washed into religious beliefs,

and it is such person's right to defend his beliefs.

However, I don't condone the deception of believers who push their beliefs as facts,

and this goes also for the organized religions who claim their doctrines are "the truth".

 

[Guest guest 1]

Former Christian Placed Chicken Heads And Joss Sticks Outside Lighthouse Chu

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SINGAPORE - A disgruntled former member of Lighthouse Evangelism church, who was suffering from delusional disorder,placed joss sticks and chicken heads outside the church in Woodlands on several occasions, a court heard.

But Cyrus Teo King Huat, 44, was caught on camera when on May 13 he set on fire a sign, bearing Lighthouse Evangelism's name, outside the church.

The church had installed a closed-circuit television camera to monitor the sign, after it had been set ablaze a few times.

On Friday (Oct 7), Teo was jailed for 10 months, after he pleaded guilty to one charge of mischief by fire.

Three other charges were taken into consideration in sentencing: one each of mischief by fire, refusing to allow a policeman to take his photo and finger impressions, and refusing to give a blood sample.

A community court heard that Teo used to attend Lighthouse Evangelism, a non-denominational megachurch, located at 81 Woodlands Circle.

On Sept 23 last year, he sent a letter to the church saying he had changed his religion, the court heard.

"Teo was dissatisfied with the church, and also admitted to placing joss sticks and chicken heads outside the church on several occasions," said Deputy Public Prosecutor Esther Tang.

On Oct 2 last year, pastor Timothy Tan Soo Chai, 57, found three chicken heads, joss sticks and burnt candles in front of the church's sign. He found three more chicken heads at the church's side gate.

Later on May 13, pastor Tan went to work to find that the church's sign had been burnt. He called the police as this was not the first time it had happened.

Video footage captured a man splashing a flammable liquid on the sign, before setting it alight at about 1.55am, and then running away.

Police tracked Teo down as the culprit behind the crime.

As a result of his mischief, the church incurred $19,020 in cost to repair the sign.

Teo admitted to burning the sign on a previous occasion, sometime between 9am on May 2 and 12.45am the next day.

On May 3, while under arrest at Jurong Police Division on suspicion of having committed mischief by fire, Teo refused to give a blood sample to a policeman.

Then on July 13, again under arrest at the same police station for the same crime, he refused to have his photographs and finger impressions taken.

Teo's pro-bono lawyer Cheryl Ng Huiling said he is seeking treatment at the Institute of Mental Health for delusional disorder.

Teo believed that he had been under a curse, and that burning the sign would remove the curse, the lawyer said.

The maximum penalty for committing mischief by fire or any explosive substance, knowing that it would likely cause damage to property, is seven years in jail and a fine.

Under the Registration of Criminals Act, a person who is accused of a crime and under arrest can be required to give a blood sample and have photographs and finger impressions taken.

The maximum punishment for refusing to allow such body samples to be taken is a $1,000 fine and one month in jail.

 

[Guest Church mouse]

3 hours ago, Guest guest 1 said:

Former Christian Placed Chicken Heads And Joss Sticks Outside Lighthouse Chu

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This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 780x520.

SINGAPORE - A disgruntled former member of Lighthouse Evangelism church, who was suffering from delusional disorder,placed joss sticks and chicken heads outside the church in Woodlands on several occasions, a court heard.

But Cyrus Teo King Huat, 44, was caught on camera when on May 13 he set on fire a sign, bearing Lighthouse Evangelism's name, outside the church.

The church had installed a closed-circuit television camera to monitor the sign, after it had been set ablaze a few times.

On Friday (Oct 7), Teo was jailed for 10 months, after he pleaded guilty to one charge of mischief by fire.

Three other charges were taken into consideration in sentencing: one each of mischief by fire, refusing to allow a policeman to take his photo and finger impressions, and refusing to give a blood sample.

A community court heard that Teo used to attend Lighthouse Evangelism, a non-denominational megachurch, located at 81 Woodlands Circle.

On Sept 23 last year, he sent a letter to the church saying he had changed his religion, the court heard.

"Teo was dissatisfied with the church, and also admitted to placing joss sticks and chicken heads outside the church on several occasions," said Deputy Public Prosecutor Esther Tang.

On Oct 2 last year, pastor Timothy Tan Soo Chai, 57, found three chicken heads, joss sticks and burnt candles in front of the church's sign. He found three more chicken heads at the church's side gate.

Later on May 13, pastor Tan went to work to find that the church's sign had been burnt. He called the police as this was not the first time it had happened.

Video footage captured a man splashing a flammable liquid on the sign, before setting it alight at about 1.55am, and then running away.

Police tracked Teo down as the culprit behind the crime.

As a result of his mischief, the church incurred $19,020 in cost to repair the sign.

Teo admitted to burning the sign on a previous occasion, sometime between 9am on May 2 and 12.45am the next day.

On May 3, while under arrest at Jurong Police Division on suspicion of having committed mischief by fire, Teo refused to give a blood sample to a policeman.

Then on July 13, again under arrest at the same police station for the same crime, he refused to have his photographs and finger impressions taken.

Teo's pro-bono lawyer Cheryl Ng Huiling said he is seeking treatment at the Institute of Mental Health for delusional disorder.

Teo believed that he had been under a curse, and that burning the sign would remove the curse, the lawyer said.

The maximum penalty for committing mischief by fire or any explosive substance, knowing that it would likely cause damage to property, is seven years in jail and a fine.

Under the Registration of Criminals Act, a person who is accused of a crime and under arrest can be required to give a blood sample and have photographs and finger impressions taken.

The maximum punishment for refusing to allow such body samples to be taken is a $1,000 fine and one month in jail.

 

Wah so happening. Isn't lighthouse evangelism where the controversial (read: law breaking) anti-gay, anti-religious harmony pastor rony tan preaches at? 

 

[Steve5380]

4 hours ago, Guest Church mouse said:

Wah so happening. Isn't lighthouse evangelism where the controversial (read: law breaking) anti-gay, anti-religious harmony pastor rony tan preaches at? 

 

 

Yes, he founded the church nearly 40 years ago and is now the head pastor. 

 

40 years dedicated to the proliferation of falsities, lies, deceptions. 

If the figure of Jesus Christ could resurrect now, and see what happened to his teachings, philosophy,

he would immediately rush back to his grave.

[Guest Auntie "killer"]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Yes, he founded the church nearly 40 years ago and is now the head pastor. 

 

40 years dedicated to the proliferation of falsities, lies, deceptions. 

If the figure of Jesus Christ could resurrect now, and see what happened to his teachings, philosophy,

he would immediately rush back to his grave.

Many local aunties found him to be an engaging and "convincing" speaker just by his rhetorics and theatrics alone. Spectacle and controversy courting with little substance is lauded here, it seems. 

[Guest Auntie magnet]

Free entertainment. And at least the aunties won't fall asleep during service.

[Guest Richie perfum]

Don't laugh, the pastor maybe having the last laughs all the way to the bank. Two middle age single women I know goes there , the are quite wealthy and donate alot out of their own free will. A highly hetreosexual pastor could be very charming.

 

There are lots of rich single women in Sg.

[Guest Hen club or church?]

40 minutes ago, Guest Richie perfum said:

Don't laugh, the pastor maybe having the last laughs all the way to the bank. Two middle age single women I know goes there , the are quite wealthy and donate alot out of their own free will. A highly hetreosexual pastor could be very charming.

 

There are lots of rich single women in Sg.

Disgusting. If hell exists, these women will be going straight there. Joining him. For sullying god's name.

[Guest 只爱巧克力慕斯]

According to some local aunties from another church "这个慕斯很油墨，很有说服力，很厉害，跟别的慕斯很不一样！你一定会被他的话给说服，让你大开眼界，所以你一定要去听他讲道！”

 

屁呃！

 

很明显的在帮他招兵买马。真是中毒太深，无药可救！

[Guest Church rot]

Churches are often rampant with disgusting leaders. 也许只是少数，但却是有很多很多外表满口仁义道德，但实际上内心却是男盗女昌的男男女女在那里耀虎杨威着。With some of the female leaders behaving like whores and male leaders like robbers, I'd rather go to hell than step into one.

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, Guest Church rot said:

Churches are often rampant with disgusting leaders. 也许只是少数，但却是有很多很多外表满口仁义道德，但实际上内心却是男盗女昌的男男女女在那里耀虎杨威着。With some of the female leaders behaving like whores and male leaders like robbers, I'd rather go to hell than step into one.

 

Maybe Kong He and the Ho are just the tip of the iceberg?

 

[Guest Lucrative circus]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

Maybe Kong He and the Ho are just the tip of the iceberg?

 

The ho？Hmmm I like the ring to it. 

 

There definitely is more than meets the eye!

 

Mega churches are big businesses. Look at the spin offs - magic shows, movies, even pop albums. I wonder how much of "personal donations" are kick backs.

[Guest David]

It is a very difficult situation growing up a gay in a chrstian family. You have to suppress your homosexuality until you become independent enough to embrace your true nature