Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[permanent-guest]

You're right, humans freey interpret the bible as they wish. But ask yourselves this: if your Christian god is true and loves all his children, why doesn't he make it clear in the bible that being gay is ok? Why does he create a situation such that thousands of gay people around other parts of the world are killed, bullied and driven to suicide cos god says in the bible that it is not ok to be gay? Shall I link some news here exposing some of the atrocities that people do to faggots in other countries?

 

 

Because the Christian god was not the one who wrote the bible, rather many fallible human beings did, over the years from 600BC to 100AD. It is a combination of erroneous views and valid experiences of these writers and communities of writers.

[sliceboy]

PinkPANther, FirsTimer:

 

No need for philosophical debate; only simple logic and reasoning.

 

Why do you believe the Christian faith? Why don't you believe in Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism or other religions? Do you think that Christianity is the only true religion? Do you believe the Christian Bible literally?

[sliceboy]

We need to expose Christianity for what it is, because Christianity is very shrewdly marketed and many people believe literally, People are willing to act irrationally for the unproven promise of eternal life, heaven and hell.

 

This Chinese New Year of the Snake, I once again heard a pastor preach a sermon about believing in Jesus over our Chinese cultural beliefs and he also proudly talked about how he converted his grandmother and uncle to Christianity.

 

Christianity is another collection of stories and not truer than our Chinese beliefs.

 

 

Because the Christian god was not the one who wrote the bible, rather many fallible human beings did, over the years from 600BC to 100AD. It is a combination of erroneous views and valid experiences of these writers and communities of writers.

[sliceboy]

dannysuz,

 

Why did you compare "a gay or homosexual" to "an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer"?

Why didn't you write, "A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as a heterosexual can accept Christ."

 

Why do you accept Christianity and not the other religions? Because you think Christianity is true?

How do you know which religion is true?

How do you know anything is true?

 

The Christian Bible is not literally true and definitely not truer than Buddhism, Hinduism, and other religions.

 

There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That is the sin of not believing and not receiving Jesus Christ into your life.
A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer can accept Christ. Jesus' offer of salvation is open to everyone.
The Bible teaches that if someone has truly accepted Christ into his life, nothing can keep him out of heaven. In John 10:28, Christ says of Christians,

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand.”

This is like ctrl-alt-del. You are as clean as you are. I shall accept christ when I am 64 years old.. he he..

[Steve5380]

LOL!  how you know you will make it to 64?

Which story is more fantastic,  Jesus Christ or Santa Claus? 

 

There is only one sin that is unforgivable. That is the sin of not believing and not receiving Jesus Christ into your life.
A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer can accept Christ. Jesus' offer of salvation is open to everyone.
The Bible teaches that if someone has truly accepted Christ into his life, nothing can keep him out of heaven. In John 10:28, Christ says of Christians,

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand.”

This is like ctrl-alt-del. You are as clean as you are. I shall accept christ when I am 64 years old.. he he..

Edited March 24, 2013 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

The "Church of our Saviour" is also a saviour of 377A?  How cute

 

 

Gentlemen, The time has come.....Church of our saviour is going to step in soon against the trial and repeal of Act 377A.

Brace yourselves for this storm

[Steve5380]

Wow !!! Big statement !!! So there are at least 2 million 'sinners' in Singapore alone, all because they are not believer of J.C. ?!! Hmmm .... which chapter in the Bible says that? And I thought I have the right to choose my religion but didn't know not choosing a particular one is a sin !!! Hope no mayhem here .... hehehe. Nothing against any religion ... just speaking my mind

PEACE TO MANKIND .... religion or not .... you are what you are ... nobody can stop another or ask that someone to leave the premises all because he is gay !!!

 

If the Vatican asks that every gay leaves the premises,

half of the Curia would have to walk out!

[EasleyLim]

I haven't the vaguest idea what you were talking about there, mercutio. But I'll tell u that the source material I was referring to is the bible. The one that readily available to all Christians and the one they all refer to. Never mind the version, the core teachings are the same.

I don't have time right now to check the exact verses. But I can tell u that homosexuality is clearly forbidden, not only in old testament, but in new testament as well.

You're right, humans freey interpret the bible as they wish. But ask yourselves this: if your Christian god is true and loves all his children, why doesn't he make it clear in the bible that being gay is ok? Why does he create a situation such that thousands of gay people around other parts of the world are killed, bullied and driven to suicide cos god says in the bible that it is not ok to be gay? Shall I link some news here exposing some of the atrocities that people do to faggots in other countries?

Being in lawful and moderately tolerant Singapore, we may not realise the full extent of the kind of hatred the bible incites against homosexuality. That does not mean it does not exist.

 

I feel like i'm gonna regret this here goes anyway.

 

Any quotes that I use will be taken from the KJV unless stated otherwise.

 

Let's start with the most quoted OT passage that condemns homosexuals or homosexual behaviours: Leviticus 20: 13

 

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20: 13)

But we know that that particular kind of rule doesn't apply any more for that is created during the period of the Law where people back then are still fucking barbaric and generally quite orderless. That was a period where Christ has not come to redeem us. We know this because later in the NT, passage Galatians 3: 13, Apostle Paul has explicitly said that Christ's sacrifice has rescued us from the curse of the Law, and that If we insist on following the Law and imposing the Law on others, we're basically dishonouring his sacrifice.

 

Galatians 3: 10-13

 

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. (Galatians 3: 10-13)

 

 

However, that doesn't mean we can just scraped all the other rules made during the Law like the Ten Commandments. Can we now commit murder, theft, adultery (none of which receives a renewed prohibition in the New Testament)?

No, because as Jesus says:

 

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5: 17-18)

 

 

He died so we can start life anew on a clean slate. Whether or not we will continue to sin is still dependent on us.

 

 

Anyway, for the bits condemning homosexuals in the NT I think you meant Romans 1: 26-27, 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 and 1 Timothy 1: 9-10. 

 

Let's start off with Romans 1: 26-27

 

 

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1: 26-27)

 

 

This bit is, unfortunately, is often truncated to highlight that the Bible is against homosexuality. Imma just expand the quotes a bit more to put things in context for you.

 

 

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.  (Romans 1: 26- Romans 2: 2)

 

Now we can see what Paul really meant he went on a tirade to basically shoot everyone and say we're all equally guilty and that we should shouldn't be so judgemental. A longer version of "Say people don't know how to say yourself!", if you will. That said, it still implies that lesbians are still sinful. But what exactly is the "Natural use" of women? For that we have to look at the culture in which Paul lived in to get a more proper understanding of why he might say that. For during Paul's time, life was mainly still a patriarchal society. I don't profess to truly know what is "natural" or "unnatural" about the use of women during that time period but logically speaking, I believe it means bearing children and staying at home to take care of family. So if you think about it that way, what Paul is really condemning are the women who do not want to (or unable to) give birth and raise a family. Homophobic? Not really. Sexist? Definitely.

 

Moving on to Corinthians 6: 9-10

 

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (Corinthians 6: 9-10)

 

I've checked the other versions of the Bible regarding this passage and there seems to be a lot of controversy with the usage of "effeminate". New International Version (NIV) replaces it with "men who have sex with men" while most versions uses "effeminate". As we all know, there are many kind of gays; ranging from the str8-actings one to the queens that so flaming, you can see them from outer space. Then there are st8 guys so girly, you could have swore they were gay but they're not. So does this passage condemns the all gays or just the really sissy ones, or perhaps the submissive ones (Good news for the tops)? Does it even condemns homosexuals to begin with? This is one of the main problems with the Bible, the translation can be inaccurate or there may not be words in the English dictionary that can accurately convey the actual meaning when doing translation. So again, does whether or not this condemns homosexuals is still up for debate.

 

Next, 1 Timothy 1: 9-10

 

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

I don't see anything reference homosexuals. Maybe this is the same situation as Corinthians 6: 9-10 where different versions uses different words and lo and behold,

 

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

 

That was taken from NIV. So again, does whether or not this condemns homosexuals is still up for debate.

 

 

I hope I have cleared most of your doubts concerning the NT condemning homosexuals. If you have more questions, please go ahead and ask. I'm not a man of God nor am I a Christian. I'm like most people, still learning about religions.

 

But from what I learn so far, the Bible is not meant to be taken literally because if we do then we won't be allowed to wear clothes made out of mixed fabrics or eat prawns, or get divorces. Christians these days do not focus so much on the Old Testament but rather, on the New Testament. Sure, they still keep the story of Creation and all that but the focus is not on the OT but on Christ's actions and words. The Bible as a whole is not meant to be taken at face value but as a series of metaphors and parables that extols the qualities that Christ wanted us to live by. That said, this doesn't mean the OT is irrelevant -- the ENTIRE Bible is still relevant. 

[azimuth]

I always feel the bible is full of controversies. Whatever you want to seek acknowledgment for, you will find if you try hard enough.

[Gray]

Easley, the version you read from refuses to use the word homosexuality for some reason. Go search up what does the bible have to say about homosexuality on google and you might have a clearer view.

 

My point still stands. At the end of the day, many other christians do not share your view on this issue. After all, that is just your own interpretation on the bible. And there are many interpretations out there. The bible is god's word, and god is supposed to be the great arbiter of this world according to the christian religion. If this is true, why is he doing such a poor job of it? Why is their unfairness in this world? Why is he allowing people to set fire and kill a person for being gay? What did he do for him to meet such a fate other than being gay? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/23/steven-simpson-gay-teen-burned-birthday-_n_2939092.html

 

NO MATTER what the interpretations are, NO MATTER how much you try to justify the goodness of the bible, NO MATTER how much you try to pretend that god loves all his children when he allows gay haters to set fire to his gay son, it does not change the fact that god CREATED a situation where people struggle to reconcile christianity with their homosexuality everyday. If god loves you, what would he do that to you?

 

Pleas don't forget that god created humans and god is controlling things from up above. If god created humans to be so intrinsically flawed and he manipulates things from above such that the world is unfair and unjust, then it speaks a lot about what kind of god he is, isn't it? After all, homosexuality aside, why are you born in Singapore and here typing on the computer replying me when some children born in Cambodia don't even know what a computer looks like? Why do devout christians like the parents of the Tampines road accident deserve to have their children taken so unfairly away from them? While spoilt, unappreciative children and irresponsible parents might need that lesson more?

 

This religion is flawed from the inside out and I'm ashamed of ever having been a christian. Homosexuality and christianity can never be reconciled when it tells you that you're a sinner for loving another man/woman and teaches you to hate yourself for it. The very fact you mentioned about christians selectively following the convenient parts and choosing not to follow the inconvenient parts speaks a lot about the barbaric and intolerant nature of the bible and the delusional mindset that most people have. After all, In Matthew 19:21 Jesus says:

• "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

So why all of you christians not selling your worldly possessions and giving them to the poor? Why are Singaporean christians still so materialistic and focused on finding places to build a church or building big churches when jesus says being rich and materialistic is not the way he teaches? OR is it just another convenient verse to ignore?

 

So go ahead, delude yourself into thinking that the verses condemning homosexuality in the bible doesn't exist. Go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that God loves everyone. Go ahead and delude yourself into thinking christianity is a religion of love.

[EasleyLim]

Easley, the version you read from refuses to use the word homosexuality for some reason. Go search up what does the bible have to say about homosexuality on google and you might have a clearer view.

 

My point still stands. At the end of the day, many other christians do not share your view on this issue. After all, that is just your own interpretation on the bible. And there are many interpretations out there. The bible is god's word, and god is supposed to be the great arbiter of this world according to the christian religion. If this is true, why is he doing such a poor job of it? Why is their unfairness in this world? Why is he allowing people to set fire and kill a person for being gay? What did he do for him to meet such a fate other than being gay? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/23/steven-simpson-gay-teen-burned-birthday-_n_2939092.html

 

NO MATTER what the interpretations are, NO MATTER how much you try to justify the goodness of the bible, NO MATTER how much you try to pretend that god loves all his children when he allows gay haters to set fire to his gay son, it does not change the fact that god CREATED a situation where people struggle to reconcile christianity with their homosexuality everyday. If god loves you, what would he do that to you?

 

Pleas don't forget that god created humans and god is controlling things from up above. If god created humans to be so intrinsically flawed and he manipulates things from above such that the world is unfair and unjust, then it speaks a lot about what kind of god he is, isn't it? After all, homosexuality aside, why are you born in Singapore and here typing on the computer replying me when some children born in Cambodia don't even know what a computer looks like? Why do devout christians like the parents of the Tampines road accident deserve to have their children taken so unfairly away from them? While spoilt, unappreciative children and irresponsible parents might need that lesson more?

 

This religion is flawed from the inside out and I'm ashamed of ever having been a christian. Homosexuality and christianity can never be reconciled when it tells you that you're a sinner for loving another man/woman and teaches you to hate yourself for it. The very fact you mentioned about christians selectively following the convenient parts and choosing not to follow the inconvenient parts speaks a lot about the barbaric and intolerant nature of the bible and the delusional mindset that most people have. After all, In Matthew 19:21 Jesus says:

• "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

So why all of you christians not selling your worldly possessions and giving them to the poor? Why are Singaporean christians still so materialistic and focused on finding places to build a church or building big churches when jesus says being rich and materialistic is not the way he teaches? OR is it just another convenient verse to ignore?

 

So go ahead, delude yourself into thinking that the verses condemning homosexuality in the bible doesn't exist. Go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that God loves everyone. Go ahead and delude yourself into thinking christianity is a religion of love.

 

I see where you're coming from. Your beef with Christianity does not lie with the Bible but Life itself. You're upset at how unfair life is, and regardless of how much I try to explain why bad things happens to good people, I will never be able to satisfy you. Look at it from various other religions, Buddhism, Taoism, Pastarafian, whatever. Try looking from their POV and see if you can find an answer that satisfy you -- I can guarantee that you won't.

 

Buddhism has karma. Why not run them down as well?

 

Why do gay teens have to die?  

Why do natural disasters happen?

Why do little kids in Africa get cancers and AIDS while YOU grow up without having to worry whether you get to go to school tomorrow?

Why do you get to live while others who had so much more potential than you and I combine, have to die?

 

BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING BAD IN THEIR PAST LIFE AND NOW THEY'RE PAYING FOR IT. TOO FUCKING BAD.

 

Does that satisfy your soul? Because It doesn't do for me. 

 

Why? Because a fair and just world DOES NOT EXISTS. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people all the time. Deal with it. It doesn't have to be from a Christianity pov either. Christ, and I don't know WHAT kind of preacher or pastor or whatever men of God you've been speaking to, but I know that Christianity is not a hateful religion, and neither is Islam nor Judaism. All major religions in the world calls for peace. That's the whole point of a religion in the first place; to curb disorder and soothe the soul.

 

Now it's my turn to ask you a question.

 

Tell me, how is it possibly that three religions managed to appear when they all have the same source? It's Humans. 

Look at all the major religions in this world, look at what they have in common -- surprise, surprise -- it's Humans again.

What about the war atrocities? Agent Orange in Vietnam war. Nuclear bombs in Hiroshima. Gas chambers of the Nazis. What do all of these have in common? Humans.

 

What does this show? Religion itself is not flawed, it is not the root of the problem. Its the believers, the people; they are the real cause of corruptions of its message for even without religions, bad things still happen because Humans are just scumbags who will fight over anything and everything.

 

So if you want to rage about anything, rage about how stupid humanity is and how low humans are willing to go to get what they want. Not religions.

 

As for Matthew 19:21, i told you the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. Just because you don't like what the Bible has to say about homosexuality doesn't mean you're free commit the same cherrypicking mistakes. You either take everything at face value or you don't.

[Gray]

I'm sorry Easley, you don't see where I'm coming from at all. You try to make it seem like you understand things but you don't understand a single thing about this issue. I'm an atheist, and I believe none of the religions you have listed. I'm discussing Christianity because it is a particularly harmful religion.

Why would a fair world not exist when God loves ALL of his children? If you were a parent, and you had 3 children and you loved all of them equally, why would you not provide for each of them equally? Why does one get to go to school in Singapore, while the other one becomes a child prostitute and the third one eats from trash in India?

Yes I have never disputed the fact that all of these are caused by humans. Yes Christianity is a human construct! That is the key to the problem. There is no god. Christianity is a medium in which bigots use to justify their actions and discriminate freely. How do YOU know what christianity, and the 3 abrahamic religions are about when you don't even subscribe to the religion? What exactly makes you an authority on this subject?

You have agreed with me unknowingly. You either take everything at face value or you don't. Why is it that christians get to pick and choose which verses they want to follow and which verses are just "metaphor". Who decides all this? Humans. And who made humans the way they are? God. Who is manipulating things from above? God.

I'm not upset at why bad things happen to good people. I know they do. There are no emotions from me ragarding this. What you fail to see is me trying to expose the logical fallacies of the bible, that if god loves everyone as his children, then WHY do bad things happen to good people? That does not make sense, does it? Can you answer this question?

I see where you're coming from. Your beef with Christianity does not lie with the Bible but Life itself. You're upset at how unfair life is, and regardless of how much I try to explain why bad things happens to good people, I will never be able to satisfy you. Look at it from various other religions, Buddhism, Taoism, Pastarafian, whatever. Try looking from their POV and see if you can find an answer that satisfy you -- I can guarantee that you won't.

Buddhism has karma. Why not run them down as well?

Why do gay teens have to die?

Why do natural disasters happen?

Why do little kids in Africa get cancers and AIDS while YOU grow up without having to worry whether you get to go to school tomorrow?

Why do you get to live while others who had so much more potential than you and I combine, have to die?

BECAUSE THEY DID SOMETHING BAD IN THEIR PAST LIFE AND NOW THEY'RE PAYING FOR IT. TOO FUCKING BAD.

Does that satisfy your soul? Because It doesn't do for me.

Why? Because a fair and just world DOES NOT EXISTS. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people all the time. Deal with it. It doesn't have to be from a Christianity pov either. Christ, and I don't know WHAT kind of preacher or pastor or whatever men of God you've been speaking to, but I know that Christianity is not a hateful religion, and neither is Islam nor Judaism. All major religions in the world calls for peace. That's the whole point of a religion in the first place; to curb disorder and soothe the soul.

Now it's my turn to ask you a question.

Tell me, how is it possibly that three religions managed to appear when they all have the same source? It's Humans.

Look at all the major religions in this world, look at what they have in common -- surprise, surprise -- it's Humans again.

What about the war atrocities? Agent Orange in Vietnam war. Nuclear bombs in Hiroshima. Gas chambers of the Nazis. What do all of these have in common? Humans.

What does this show? Religion itself is not flawed, it is not the root of the problem. Its the believers, the people; they are the real cause of corruptions of its message for even without religions, bad things still happen because Humans are just scumbags who will fight over anything and everything.

So if you want to rage about anything, rage about how stupid humanity is and how low humans are willing to go to get what they want. Not religions.

As for Matthew 19:21, i told you the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. Just because you don't like what the Bible has to say about homosexuality doesn't mean you're free commit the same cherrypicking mistakes. You either take everything at face value or you don't.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Gray

[Guest Guest]

Gray, I also made similar observations as yours. I also notice that they can interpret and twist things to arrive at the conclusion that they desire.

 

The bigots would always say we must thank & praise almighty for whatever good things that happens. But by the same logic, we ought to question why bad things happen that causes innocent loss of lives, injuries and suffering. They would tell me he must have a good reason for causing this to happen which we need not know what is the reason. Doesn’t make sense to me at all. I asked them many other question which they could not me give convincing explanations, but they go on and on and on incessantly thanking and praising. As I could not see any enlightenment, I turn down all Sunday invitations from then on.

 

The religion promotes peace and love and deserves respect even though I am non believer, but it is the bigots who are very problematic and very imposing and very intolerant.

 

Why some are born so goodlooking? Why some are born so ugly? They can't answer convincingly.

[Gray]

Gray, I also made similar observations as yours. I also notice that they can interpret and twist things to arrive at the conclusion that they desire.

 

The bigots would always say we must thank & praise almighty for whatever good things that happens. But by the same logic, we ought to question why bad things happen that causes innocent loss of lives, injuries and suffering. They would tell me he must have a good reason for causing this to happen which we need not know what is the reason. Doesn’t make sense to me at all. I asked them many other question which they could not me give convincing explanations, but they go on and on and on incessantly thanking and praising. As I could not see any enlightenment, I turn down all Sunday invitations from then on.

 

The religion promotes peace and love and deserves respect even though I am non believer, but it is the bigots who are very problematic and very imposing and very intolerant.

 

Why some are born so goodlooking? Why some are born so ugly? They can't answer convincingly.

 

wish i can like your post. Anyway good point.

[Steve5380]

PinkPANther, FirsTimer:

 

No need for philosophical debate; only simple logic and reasoning.

 

Why do you believe the Christian faith? Why don't you believe in Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism or other religions? Do you think that Christianity is the only true religion? Do you believe the Christian Bible literally?

 

Maybe it is the appeal of the story of Jesus.  Combine this with the enticement of a heaven, and the horror of hell.  Add to it the heavy proselytizing by the Christian churches.

 

And finally, the Christianity sold to the public does not include the real uncertainty of all of it, nor the evils committed by its churches.

[trxsuspension]

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." 

[EasleyLim]

I'm sorry Easley, you don't see where I'm coming from at all. You try to make it seem like you understand things but you don't understand a single thing about this issue. I'm an atheist, and I believe none of the religions you have listed. I'm discussing Christianity because it is a particularly harmful religion.

Why would a fair world not exist when God loves ALL of his children? If you were a parent, and you had 3 children and you loved all of them equally, why would you not provide for each of them equally? Why does one get to go to school in Singapore, while the other one becomes a child prostitute and the third one eats from trash in India?

Yes I have never disputed the fact that all of these are caused by humans. Yes Christianity is a human construct! That is the key to the problem. There is no god. Christianity is a medium in which bigots use to justify their actions and discriminate freely. How do YOU know what christianity, and the 3 abrahamic religions are about when you don't even subscribe to the religion? What exactly makes you an authority on this subject?

You have agreed with me unknowingly. You either take everything at face value or you don't. Why is it that christians get to pick and choose which verses they want to follow and which verses are just "metaphor". Who decides all this? Humans. And who made humans the way they are? God. Who is manipulating things from above? God.

I'm not upset at why bad things happen to good people. I know they do. There are no emotions from me ragarding this. What you fail to see is me trying to expose the logical fallacies of the bible, that if god loves everyone as his children, then WHY do bad things happen to good people? That does not make sense, does it? Can you answer this question?

I think it is you who is unable to see the bigger picture here. Perhaps I didn't explain my side properly. As an agnostic AND a non-believer, I can view the religion without being biased against or for it. Make no mistake, I'm not defending Christianity but religions as a whole. I have no particular affliation to Christianity nor the other Abrahamic faiths, or to any other kind of faiths for that matter. Nothing is sacrosanct to me.

I see You're running on Epicurus' trilemma.

If God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent

if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good

if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?

But really, does the presence (or lack of) of God means that mean everything in the bible, even the good parts, becomes irrelevant and cease to be useful? Even with its logical fallicies and contradictions, you cannot deny that Christianity has its good bits. The NT has more texts that promotes acceptance, humblessness and forigiveness than it has on condeming homosexuals. Just because it has bad parts in the bible doesn't change the core message of Christianity.

That said, my main beef with you is not that you think Christianity is false but rather, your dichotomous view of it. If part of the bible is found to be false, it should be destroyed completely. I think it's rather wasteful of you to discount Christianity as a tool to better mankind.

Religion is but a tool. You blaming Christianity for everything bad that was done in its name is like saying gun are bad because guns have been used to kill people. But guns have been used in self-defence too. Atttempting to remove guns will deprive people of that benefit. Should it be clear then that the tool is not responsible for what it's used for, but the user is?

Making guns go away will not make bad people stop doing bad things because if they really wanted to do bad things, they will find a way to do it, no? I just don't see how is it fair for you to single out Christianity alone when any other religions are equally susceptible to this kind of misue.

Both good and bad things have been, and will continue to be, done in the name of God or whatever deity they identify with. Even though I'm not a believer, I am not above working with Christianity to better mankind. If making someone a Christian means they'll learn to live their life to help other then by all means, go ahead. I also have no qualm with cherrypicking, preseving the parts in religious texts that encourage altruism and throwing away the ones that encourages violence or discriminations. That might make me a hypocrite but hey, it benefits mankind so I don't care.

But if your hatred for Christianity, and to a lesser extent, religions, blinds you to its potentially beneficial parts then you ought to rethink your own perspective on things.

[khanomjeen]

Reading so much information about christianity just to justify our worth. Makes me glad i am not one and able to be happy smart and confident within myself.

[Gray]

I'm not blind to the good side of Christianity, Easley. I come from a largely christian background and many of my christian family and friends are all good and just people that follow the good parts of the bible. Christians tend to be very nice people when you don't appear to be a sinner. However, bringing back the discussion to its original topic of christianity and homosexuality, it is a FACT that homosexuality is considered a sin in the bible. God created the bible. God created humans. God created human interpretations. God created the contrasting verses in the bible. God allowed his followers to fight over which interpretations of the bible are correct everyday. God created the conflict gay people feel when trying to reconcile their religion with their sexuality. God created evil people who harm the innocent. God allowed the Crusades to happen. God allowed so much discrimination to exist in the hearts of his followers. Why is the christian god doing such a poor job of being a god?

Don't get me wrong. I definitely see the good that can come out of christianity. Of course there are good christians, just like how there are good buddhists, good muslims, good atheists, good agnostics, good scientologists, good whatever philosophy or whatever religion people subscribe to. But notice that only the abrahamic religions have verses such as this:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. ¹⁰ Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Or your beloved NEw Testament has a verse like this too:

Matthew 10:21-22

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I'm not blind nor am I naive. The reason why I'm opposed to Christianity, especially so to gay people defending christianity, is because of the intolerance it preaches and instills in the minds of its followers. There is good in christianity; indeed good can be found in aspects of life everywhere if one tries hard enough. In this case, the evil far exceeds the good.

I think it is you who is unable to see the bigger picture here. Perhaps I didn't explain my side properly. As an agnostic AND a non-believer, I can view the religion without being biased against or for it. Make no mistake, I'm not defending Christianity but religions as a whole. I have no particular affliation to Christianity nor the other Abrahamic faiths, or to any other kind of faiths for that matter. Nothing is sacrosanct to me.

I see You're running on Epicurus' trilemma.

If God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent

if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good

if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?

But really, does the presence (or lack of) of God means that mean everything in the bible, even the good parts, becomes irrelevant and cease to be useful? Even with its logical fallicies and contradictions, you cannot deny that Christianity has its good bits. The NT has more texts that promotes acceptance, humblessness and forigiveness than it has on condeming homosexuals. Just because it has bad parts in the bible doesn't change the core message of Christianity.

That said, my main beef with you is not that you think Christianity is false but rather, your dichotomous view of it. If part of the bible is found to be false, it should be destroyed completely. I think it's rather wasteful of you to discount Christianity as a tool to better mankind.

Religion is but a tool. You blaming Christianity for everything bad that was done in its name is like saying gun are bad because guns have been used to kill people. But guns have been used in self-defence too. Atttempting to remove guns will deprive people of that benefit. Should it be clear then that the tool is not responsible for what it's used for, but the user is?

Making guns go away will not make bad people stop doing bad things because if they really wanted to do bad things, they will find a way to do it, no? I just don't see how is it fair for you to single out Christianity alone when any other religions are equally susceptible to this kind of misue.

Both good and bad things have been, and will continue to be, done in the name of God or whatever deity they identify with. Even though I'm not a believer, I am not above working with Christianity to better mankind. If making someone a Christian means they'll learn to live their life to help other then by all means, go ahead. I also have no qualm with cherrypicking, preseving the parts in religious texts that encourage altruism and throwing away the ones that encourages violence or discriminations. That might make me a hypocrite but hey, it benefits mankind so I don't care.

But if your hatred for Christianity, and to a lesser extent, religions, blinds you to its potentially beneficial parts then you ought to rethink your own perspective on things.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Gray

[Guest Guest]

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." 

U see, precisely, this is what i find unacceptable, that is why i am not converted. This is bad logic to me. Just believe & worship & praise & thank, and everything will be fine, no need to ask why. To me, no such thing as no explanation is necessary. Everything must be properly explained and reasoned. 

[EasleyLim]

I'm not blind to the good side of Christianity, Easley. I come from a largely christian background and many of my christian family and friends are all good and just people that follow the good parts of the bible. Christians tend to be very nice people when you don't appear to be a sinner.

However, bringing back the discussion to its original topic of christianity and homosexuality, it is a FACT that homosexuality is considered a sin in the bible. God created the bible. God created humans. God created human interpretations. God created the contrasting verses in the bible. God allowed his followers to fight over which interpretations of the bible are correct everyday. God created the conflict gay people feel when trying to reconcile their religion with their sexuality. God created evil people who harm the innocent. God allowed the Crusades to happen. God allowed so much discrimination to exist in the hearts of his followers. Why is the christian god doing such a poor job of being a god?

Don't get me wrong. I definitely see the good that can come out of christianity. Of course there are good christians, just like how there are good buddhists, good muslims, good atheists, good agnostics, good scientologists, good whatever philosophy or whatever religion people subscribe to. But notice that only the abrahamic religions have verses such as this.

I'm not blind nor am I naive. The reason why I'm opposed to Christianity, especially so to gay people defending christianity, is because of the intolerance it preaches and instills in the minds of its followers. There is good in christianity; indeed good can be found in aspects of life everywhere if one tries hard enough. In this case, the evil far exceeds the good.

.

While it's true that homosexuality was once considered as a sin in the past, these days, homosexuality is a sin in the same way as wearing clothes of mixed fibres is a sin in today's times. If the christians can ignore the mixed fibre law, they sure as hell can ignore the homosexuality one... which they ought to. So again, not the religion's fault but the people. This doesn't proof that abrahamic faiths are evil.

Moving on to your God questions, I don't know why God, an all-merciful being, would allow bad things to happen not, that's why I'm agnostic. God is a supernatural being and an omnipotent one at that, so attempts to understand it with natural logic will fail. Attempting to understand the supernatural with natural means is futile, therefore God's actions are incomprehensible to us. Luckily I'm less concerned with trying to understand God than I am with the actual work done in his name.

But showing me the negative stuff about the abrahamic religions isn't proof enough to convince me that they're all inherently bad, just as how showing you all the positive verses won't convince you of the opposite. For every negative verse, there's one that promotes something positive. If we tally up the things Christianity has done in the past till now there is no doubt it will score pretty high on the evil-o-meter. This is primarily where our thinking differs. While you placed more weights on the evils it can create, I placed more weights on the good it can create. You see it as half-empty, I see it as half-full. You see it as the tool that can be used to murder in cold blood and I see it as the tool that can be used in self-defence.

So like all debates about religions, it all boils down to faith. You believe that humanity will learn all the negative traits mentioned in the Bible but I have that they would do otherwise. Neither one of us is actually right or wrong.

[sliceboy]

Gray and EasleyLim:

 

Have you heard of the New Apostolic Reformation? This Christian movement intends to reclaim "the seven mountains of culture from demonic influence. The "mountains" are arts and entertainment; business; family; government; media; religion; and education."

 

Homosexuality is one of their targets; they think that gays are controlled by demonic spirits.

 

I don't know if Singapore Christian groups are related to this movement but we are seeing similar actions by them.

The Evangelicals Engaged In Spiritual Warfare

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare

 

 

New Apostolic Reformation Watch website

Monitoring a Growing Dominionist Movement

http://nar-watch.com

 

Rainbow Harvest website

http://www.psa91.com/index2a.htm

Who operates this website? It looks outdated but some one or people were watching the Singapore anti-gay movement.

Edited November 25, 2013 by sliceboy

[Steve5380]

Reading so much information about christianity just to justify our worth. Makes me glad i am not one and able to be happy smart and confident within myself.

 

I have found that the most stable equilibrium is reached when one is an agnostic. "I don't know, nobody knows because it is not humanly possible to know" works wonders to give peace of mind.

 

AND, it does not impide to get some fun reading and arguing over the lunacies of others, haha.

[Gray]

Easley, you remind of myself when I was your age. Which wasn't that long ago actually. There are some things I wish to say to you that are not very nice. I will try to make you realise them yourself in a diplomatic manner.


Response to your 1st para:

First, let me pose a question to you. Say you were to go out into the public now and tell 5 random christians that you love men in a homoerotic fashion. What are their reactions likely to be?

Secondly, say we live in an alternate universe where bible verses condemning homosexuality did not exist. How do you think the same 5 christians are inclined to react in the same situation?

Response to your 2nd para:

Do you know that most things in this world that we have today are gained from stubbornly seeking to learn the WHY WHAT HOW of things? If scientists just dismissed the supernatural as things we couldn't possibly try to understand with natural logic, then society would be far more backward now. I'm really shocked that you said this. I thought you agreed with me that knowledge and understanding is very important. How is god and religion an exception? If something does not make sense, question it. Keeping your silence and blaming your own limited wisdom means that the human race would not advance anywhere.

Reponse to your 3rd para:

What are the good things that a good christian can do that a good atheist, a good buddhist, a good scientologist, a good muslim, etc, cannot do? Every good that comes out of christianity can come out of any other human being. You would notice that only the abrahamic faiths have such a blood splattered history though. Even today we are wary of terrorist activities in our country. Coincidentally, the same faiths preach intolerance against homosexuality. Tell me now without googling it:

1) The church and Galileo
2) The right wing republicans and the education bills they are trying to pass in the states
3) Proposition 8

Did you know that in some right wing controlled states in america, if a girl gets raped, she is not allowed to have an abortion and is required to bear her rapist's child under law? Because abortion is forbidden in the bible? Do you know how many cases of gay suicides there are in the bible belt? Do you know that if you had christian parents, they would likely never be able to accept you because of your sexuality? Because of the bible? You don't have christian family members, do you? Even today, my young cousins are being taught that homosexuality is forbidden in the bible. If you had any christian relatives at all, what makes you think they would accept you?

Easley, you don't have enough background in this issue to work with. You know too little about what is happening in the world regarding christianity and homosexuality and the troubles people have dealing with them. It is pretty foreign to you. You're working purely on the basis that, oh it's a religion - it must be good!

Sadly, it's not that simple. I know a number of gay people in our community who struggle to be a GOOD person as defined by the bible and hate themselves for being gay everyday. They pray to god to forgive them for sinning everyday. For what? Just for being the way they were born. Some of them even want to turn straight. Some christian parents force their children into unhappy marriages where the husband cheats on their wives with other men anyway. For what? These are all glaring issues that prove that homosexuality and the bible can never be reconciled. No matter how people try to convince themselves it can be done.

 

.

While it's true that homosexuality was once considered as a sin in the past, these days, homosexuality is a sin in the same way as wearing clothes of mixed fibres is a sin in today's times. If the christians can ignore the mixed fibre law, they sure as hell can ignore the homosexuality one... which they ought to. So again, not the religion's fault but the people. This doesn't proof that abrahamic faiths are evil.

Moving on to your God questions, I don't know why God, an all-merciful being, would allow bad things to happen not, that's why I'm agnostic. God is a supernatural being and an omnipotent one at that, so attempts to understand it with natural logic will fail. Attempting to understand the supernatural with natural means is futile, therefore God's actions are incomprehensible to us. Luckily I'm less concerned with trying to understand God than I am with the actual work done in his name.

But showing me the negative stuff about the abrahamic religions isn't proof enough to convince me that they're all inherently bad, just as how showing you all the positive verses won't convince you of the opposite. For every negative verse, there's one that promotes something positive. If we tally up the things Christianity has done in the past till now there is no doubt it will score pretty high on the evil-o-meter. This is primarily where our thinking differs. While you placed more weights on the evils it can create, I placed more weights on the good it can create. You see it as half-empty, I see it as half-full. You see it as the tool that can be used to murder in cold blood and I see it as the tool that can be used in self-defence.

So like all debates about religions, it all boils down to faith. You believe that humanity will learn all the negative traits mentioned in the Bible but I have that they would do otherwise. Neither one of us is actually right or wrong.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Gray

[Guest Guest]

.

Moving on to your God questions, I don't know why God, an all-merciful being, would allow bad things to happen not, that's why I'm agnostic. God is a supernatural being and an omnipotent one at that, so attempts to understand it with natural logic will fail. Attempting to understand the supernatural with natural means is futile, therefore God's actions are incomprehensible to us. Luckily I'm less concerned with trying to understand God than I am with the actual work done in his name.

ong.

Totally doesn't make sense at all. Why do we worship him if we could not understand him? If he causes bad things to happen without us understanding why, is he still that great and deserving our worshipping, incessant praising, and thanking? And he can still be considered all merciful? Everything is at his whims and fancies? This is equivalent to blindly following

 

They always say they want to save me by getting me converted. To me, i am very glad to be saved by being not converted.

[Steve5380]

.

While it's true that homosexuality was once considered as a sin in the past, these days, homosexuality is a sin in the same way as wearing clothes of mixed fibres is a sin in today's times. If the christians can ignore the mixed fibre law, they sure as hell can ignore the homosexuality one... which they ought to. So again, not the religion's fault but the people. This doesn't proof that abrahamic faiths are evil.

Moving on to your God questions, I don't know why God, an all-merciful being, would allow bad things to happen not, that's why I'm agnostic. God is a supernatural being and an omnipotent one at that, so attempts to understand it with natural logic will fail. Attempting to understand the supernatural with natural means is futile, therefore God's actions are incomprehensible to us. Luckily I'm less concerned with trying to understand God than I am with the actual work done in his name.

But showing me the negative stuff about the abrahamic religions isn't proof enough to convince me that they're all inherently bad, just as how showing you all the positive verses won't convince you of the opposite. For every negative verse, there's one that promotes something positive. If we tally up the things Christianity has done in the past till now there is no doubt it will score pretty high on the evil-o-meter. This is primarily where our thinking differs. While you placed more weights on the evils it can create, I placed more weights on the good it can create. You see it as half-empty, I see it as half-full. You see it as the tool that can be used to murder in cold blood and I see it as the tool that can be used in self-defence.

So like all debates about religions, it all boils down to faith. You believe that humanity will learn all the negative traits mentioned in the Bible but I have that they would do otherwise. Neither one of us is actually right or wrong.

 

EaseyLim, are you thinking logically?

 

Is it not the religion's fault that wearing clothes of mixed fibers, homosexuality was once or is considered a sin?   If the religion wants to get clean of fault, why doesn't it teach that those actions are NOT a sin?

 

It is nice to think that the faithful and the unfaithful are both half-way rignt, and neither is actually right or wrong.

But you have to accept that the religion is either true or false.  I'ts hard to imagine it half way.

If it is true, the unfaithful are wrong, it it is false the faithful are wrong.

[Guest Guest]

Hi Steve 5380, by their logic, other than the SuperNatural, all else are devil. Whatever chinese gods, prophet mohamed, hindu gods all are regarded as evil. I rather worship devils with good logic. I cannot accept reasoning like "I don't know, nobody knows because it is not humanly possible to know, just worship and u will go heaven, all else are not important".

[AlphonsusTan]

Dear brother in Christ! Im facing that too and am in 2 churches now one in which i grew up my faith in which is an anti gay church and anothewhich is free community church which is for gays! And my church has been telling me that its a great sin and it may even lead u to hell and beseech me from getting out of it! Me too kept saying its difficult! And the thing is that its the devil who keeps putting in our mind that its too difficult and its the devil who keeps telling us that wadever we do, we will fail! And i believe that God still loves us as sinners! But He will help us get out of it so long we believe in Him! Amen?

[Mercutio]

I haven't the vaguest idea what you were talking about there, mercutio. But I'll tell u that the source material I was referring to is the bible. The one that readily available to all Christians and the one they all refer to. Never mind the version, the core teachings are the same.

I don't have time right now to check the exact verses. But I can tell u that homosexuality is clearly forbidden, not only in old testament, but in new testament as well.

 

 

Sigh, that was exactly my point. It seems to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Simply put, Christianity is not the Bible. The Bible is not Christianity. What you read on websites is not the Bible and neither is it the entirety of Christianity, and what you read in English is certainly not the Bible.

 

Christianity is both easily and not easily defined. At its most basic, Christianity is the belief that a certain Jeshua ben Josef was the Messiah and God Incarnate. At its broadest, Christianity encompasses so many different views and doctrines and practices that they conflict and contradict one another: the Western Churches (Catholicism, Anglicanism and the Protestants) hold that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, the Eastern Churches (Orthodox, Armenian et al) hold that the Spirit proceeds only from the Father. In the same way, some independent churches accept homosexuality, while admittedly the majority do not. The Anglican Church for example accepts homosexuality, so long as it is not put into practice as a sexual act, which by the way is the same view espoused by the Dalai Lama.

 

And reading the Bible in English and without knowledge of the historical context in which any particular book (for the Bible is not one book) was written has been a major cause of why certain "Christian" beliefs are the way they are.

 

Leviticus 20:13, for example: great to quote, but have any of you *wondered* why the book is called Leviticus? It's because it was a set of laws only for the Levites, i.e. those members of the Hebrew tribe of Levi, who were the priests. Keeping that in mind, chapter 20 is also written in a very different style from the rest of the Book (in Hebrew, not so obvious in English) and is very likely a later insertion. While many Christians draw extensively on Leviticus 20 as justification to condemn what they probably didn't like already to begin with, there is also discussion as to whether Leviticus as a whole is still even applicable now that the Levites no longer exist. Many Jews themselves are of the opinion that the entire set of rules in Leviticus are "on hold" until a new Temple is built, and a new Levite class instituted. (Here's a nice summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_Code.)

 

Gray, I immensely dislike many of the beliefs of many Christian groups. I'm simply advocating that one not condemn all for the sins of some. We as homosexuals fight a hard enough battle as is, against prejudice, sweeping statements, bigotry and intolerance. Should we not ourselves practice what we ask others to do for us? I wholeheartedly agree with you that the institutionalized Christian Churches for the most part are our greatest adversary, but let's not witch-hunt among ourselves. If all Christians are to be criticized because most Christians condemn homosexuality, then all homosexuals are to be condemned the moment one homosexual molests a small boy.

 

P.S. The many versions of the Bible you mention - I assume you mean the different English versions, e.g. KJV, New American Standard, Darby etc. Different versions exist because they are all translations. Translations are never perfect and never exact, which is why I shudder every time I see a Bible Study class turn every, single word in ENGLISH around and around and around as if they were appraising a precious gem, when all they are really examining at best are glints of light flashing off certain facets of that gem.

 

The original texts, the ones we still have, are for the most part in Hebrew (already a difficult language because of its lack of written vowels - as an illustration, FLASH, FLESH and FLUSH would all be written FLSH, which can sometimes lead to ambiguity as to meaning), Aramaic and Greek. Even worse, many English translations were made off the Vulgate, the Latin language Bible. Latin is a very legalistic, structured, "hard" language, whereas Greek for example has words that are very rich with multiple shades of meaning. Hebrew and Aramaic are even farther removed.

 

Most of us are to some extent bilingual (not me, unfortunately), thanks to our educational system. As an exercise, have two or three of your friends translate say .... hmmm .... 但願人長久 into English, and compare the results. And then compare the translations with the original text in Chinese. I suspect you will find that they are all fairly accurate translations, yet may contradict one another, and also that none approach the original's full depth of meaning.

 

One might counter saying that no matter what the translation, the meaning is obvious, that it condemns homosexuality ... but is it really? Can Leviticus, a book compiled about 2,600 years ago, condemn "homosexuality", when "homosexuality" as a concept was only crystallized in the 19th century? One might again say that I'm playing with words, but then words are exactly what we quibbling over.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mercutio

[Mercutio]

Non-sequitur sidebar:

 

An example of the problems in translating and transliterating the Bible, PLUS human error in making copies.

 

It is now quite firmly accepted among Bible scholars and academics that there is a glaring typo in the Book of Exodus. Moses and the Israelites never crossed the Red Sea. They actually crossed the REED Sea, i.e. a swamp.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that scene in Prince of Egypt and (for the older ones) the Ten Commandments with vast walls of water and silhouettes of whales? Never happened. Not even in the Bible. They crossed a quagmire in which the Egyptian chariots got stuck.

[Mercutio]

Dear brother in Christ! Im facing that too and am in 2 churches now one in which i grew up my faith in which is an anti gay church and anothewhich is free community church which is for gays! And my church has been telling me that its a great sin and it may even lead u to hell and beseech me from getting out of it! Me too kept saying its difficult! And the thing is that its the devil who keeps putting in our mind that its too difficult and its the devil who keeps telling us that wadever we do, we will fail! And i believe that God still loves us as sinners! But He will help us get out of it so long we believe in Him! Amen?

Dear Gay Bro,

Decide what you want to believe:

Option 1: God has certain unbreakable rules, which may make no sense but are nevertheless unbreakable, for which He will punish you horribly if you don't follow them, and then laugh in your face as you burn, hahaha.

Option 2: God is all Good and all Powerful. If you commit a "sin", it's because you have hurt yourself or hurt your fellow human beings, and He'd rather not have you or other people hurt, so try not to do such things. If it happens sometimes, apologize, make amends and go on and try not to do it again. He himself can't be hurt.

And don't blame poor Satan. He's a scapegoat (see Leviticus 16:10), someone who is faulted for everyone else's mistakes, to the extent that he becomes a convenient excuse: "Satan is so powerful, how can I resist him???"

Go read the Book of Job; it's not a long read although the ending is flakey imho. Satan is God's servant and nothing he does is without the permission of God, which casts into *very* dubious light any statement to surrender yourself to the Lord that he may protect you from Satan. Why? Because any God who gives permission to Satan to torment you until you go crawling to God for help, must be a very petty God indeed.

Satan is each and every one of us, including those people who tell you you're going to Hell.

John Webster: "There's but three Furies¹ found in spacious Hell, but in a great man's breast three thousand dwell".

¹ Reference to the Erinyes which, in this context, may be interpreted to mean devil².

² Of course it doesn't really mean devil, but the trifold personifications of hubris³ in Greek mythology

³ I love this function why have I never noticed it before?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mercutio

[Gray]

Your views are enlightening, Mercutio. I suppose you are christian? If so, I've never seen one like you before. In any case....

My point still stands. Whatever you may think and whatever I may think or whatever anyone else thinks, nothing changes reality. You must realise that whatever interesting theories or interpretations you may have, at the end of the day actions still speak louder than words. You say bible does not represent christianity, yet christians still use it and refer to it and gay people still get hurt. So in the end, nothing changes right?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Gray

[slut]

 Translations are never perfect and never exact, which is why I shudder every time I see a Bible Study class turn every, single word in ENGLISH around and around and around as if they were appraising a precious gem, when all they are really examining at best are glints of light flashing off certain facets of that gem.

couldn't have said it better

 

 Can Leviticus, a book compiled about 2,600 years ago, condemn "homosexuality", when "homosexuality" as a concept was only crystallized in the 19th century? One might again say that I'm playing with words, but then words are exactly what we quibbling over.

 

...but er since when was 'homosexuality' a modern construct?

'Homosexuality' was already so prevalent in Ancient Greece it was practically a cultural norm. Plus 'homosexuality' is so distinct a cultural construct that it is almost impervious to poor translation. I mean, what else can 'homosexuality' in Aramaic or what-have-you be mistranslated as? 

 

I think no matter how you twist this gem, you really have to call a spade a spade

Edited March 28, 2013 by slut

[Mercutio]

...but er since when was 'homosexuality' a modern construct?

'Homosexuality' was already so prevalent in Ancient Greece it was practically a cultural norm. Plus 'homosexuality' is so distinct a cultural construct that it is almost impervious to poor translation. I mean, what else can 'homosexuality' in Aramaic or what-have-you be mistranslated as?

I think no matter how you twist this gem, you really have to call a spade a spade

Homosexual practices were prevalent in ancient Greece, as they were in other archaic societies. Homosexuality is something altogether different: the concept that a person would be, in a formal sense, inclined solely towards members of his or her own sex, in matters both carnal and emotional, in lieu of the opposite sex.

In Greece, or more correctly within certain polises within the Hellenistic world, it was acceptable for a grown man to take a younger man under his (ahem) care. The younger man would serve as the passive partner in sex, and in return would receive teaching and guidance from the older man, until such time when the first flecks of a beard appeared on the younger man's chin. It was not conceivable that a man would "marry" another man in lieu of a woman, in fact it was considered an aberration if the man did not marry a woman at all, even if he spent all his time hunting the gymnasiums.

Nor was the younger man expected to be "in love" with the older man. Respect: yes, love: no. One reason why Achilles received such honour and acclaim for having furiously avenged the death of Patroclus, was because Achilles had been the erômenos in the relationship between the two men. Yes, children, Achilles was the bottom. And the bottom was not expected to care so much for the top.

In Athens at least, it was also considered shameful for a grown man to serve as the passive partner in sex, while it is claimed by some sources that in Sparta the only time a warrior would see his wife would be for procreational purposes.

I admit the subtleties might seem slight to our modern eyes, but consider that in our own Penal Code, 377A only incriminates carnal relations between two men, and remains silent about same-sex love between women. It's not that lesbianism was thought permissible. Rather, it was then thought that hot vee-on-vee action between two panting, heaving, dripping ladies scissor-sistering away was quite impossible.

There is always a risk of thinking we see very clearly indeed through the lens of our modern times, and forget there is a separation of almost two and a half millennia.

Could we consider to be Singaporean those people who, five hundred years ago, were born to parents of like heritage on this sceptered isle, this blessed plot, this earth, this Jurong West Extension? Clearly we wouldn't, on the basis that there was no concept of Singapore then. Yet if we employ the modern test for citizenship, they would be considered Singaporean, having been born to parents of Singaporean origin, on Singaporean soil (even if such were not named "Singaporean" until later).

You may certainly call a spade a spade, except for those spade-like things that were used kind of in the same way but not exactly as spades before spades were invented.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Mercutio

[Mercutio]

Your views are enlightening, Mercutio. I suppose you are christian? If so, I've never seen one like you before. In any case....

My point still stands. Whatever you may think and whatever I may think or whatever anyone else thinks, nothing changes reality. You must realise that whatever interesting theories or interpretations you may have, at the end of the day actions still speak louder than words. You say bible does not represent christianity, yet christians still use it and refer to it and gay people still get hurt. So in the end, nothing changes right?

 

I was baptised as an infant under the Roman rite and grew up attending mass with one half of my family and folding paper ingots for seventh month with the other half. In terms of beliefs, I don't technically qualify as Christian, but don't tell my mother that. I'm sure she was heartbroken when Ratzinger retired.

 

Nothing changes, yes. Nothing stays the same. A journey of a thousand miles has to begin with a single step. Millions of steps to go, so we should get moving already.

[FirsTimer]

My point still stands. Whatever you may think and whatever I may think or whatever anyone else thinks, nothing changes reality. You must realise that whatever interesting theories or interpretations you may have, at the end of the day actions still speak louder than words. You say bible does not represent christianity, yet christians still use it and refer to it and gay people still get hurt. So in the end, nothing changes right?

 

Does your usage of "Christians" cover everyone who claims that he is a christian?? Hais.. Why must such generalization occur.. Me for one, do not have the motive of condemning anyone at all if I were to discuss about homosexuality.. And what's more, personally Im "curious" as well.. (It wouldnt make sense for me to be judging myself harshly.) Those who comment insensitively without a kind motive in voicing out have not quite understand what it means to be Christ-like yet, so erms, you might want to overlook their words from those whom are untactful? =)) 

[Guest Cube3]

Your views are enlightening, Mercutio. I suppose you are christian? If so, I've never seen one like you before. In any case....

My point still stands. Whatever you may think and whatever I may think or whatever anyone else thinks, nothing changes reality. You must realise that whatever interesting theories or interpretations you may have, at the end of the day actions still speak louder than words. You say bible does not represent christianity, yet christians still use it and refer to it and gay people still get hurt. So in the end, nothing changes right?

 

Most of Singapore's churches are blind and foolish. But some outside of Singapore seek to build bridges between the LGBT and traditional church community. Change is happening...tho not as quickly as we may like. This group below, does some really interesting work:

 

http://www.themarinfoundation.org/about-us/mission/

 

All humanity is flawed...gays or not, no? Whatever believers say, there's no one who isn't flawed (except for the Son of God) and therefore must pay the price of sin. Archbishops, Pastors, Disciples, Believers...all are sinful. Unfortunately many in our churches think they're above sin. (Sigh)...They really are NOT.

[Cube3]

Most of Singapore's churches are blind and foolish. But some outside of Singapore seek to build bridges between the LGBT and traditional church community. Change is happening...tho not as quickly as we may like. This group below, does some really interesting work:

 

http://www.themarinf...out-us/mission/

 

All humanity is flawed...gays or not, no? Whatever believers say, there's no one who isn't flawed (except for the Son of God) and therefore must pay the price of sin. Archbishops, Pastors, Disciples, Believers...all are sinful. Unfortunately many in our churches think they're above sin. (Sigh)...They really are NOT.

[slut]

Homosexual practices were prevalent in ancient Greece, as they were in other archaic societies. Homosexuality is something altogether different: the concept that a person would be, in a formal sense, inclined solely towards members of his or her own sex, in matters both carnal and emotional, in lieu of the opposite sex.

In Greece, or more correctly within certain polises within the Hellenistic world, it was acceptable for a grown man to take a younger man under his (ahem) care. The younger man would serve as the passive partner in sex, and in return would receive teaching and guidance from the older man, until such time when the first flecks of a beard appeared on the younger man's chin. It was not conceivable that a man would "marry" another man in lieu of a woman, in fact it was considered an aberration if the man did not marry a woman at all, even if he spent all his time hunting the gymnasiums.

Nor was the younger man expected to be "in love" with the older man. Respect: yes, love: no. One reason why Achilles received such honour and acclaim for having furiously avenged the death of Patroclus, was because Achilles had been the erômenos in the relationship between the two men. Yes, children, Achilles was the bottom. And the bottom was not expected to care so much for the top.

In Athens at least, it was also considered shameful for a grown man to serve as the passive partner in sex, while it is claimed by some sources that in Sparta the only time a warrior would see his wife would be for procreational purposes.

I admit the subtleties might seem slight to our modern eyes, but consider that in our own Penal Code, 377A only incriminates carnal relations between two men, and remains silent about same-sex love between women. It's not that lesbianism was thought permissible. Rather, it was then thought that hot vee-on-vee action between two panting, heaving, dripping ladies scissor-sistering away was quite impossible.

There is always a risk of thinking we see very clearly indeed through the lens of our modern times, and forget there is a separation of almost two and a half millennia.

Could we consider to be Singaporean those people who, five hundred years ago, were born to parents of like heritage on this sceptered isle, this blessed plot, this earth, this Jurong West Extension? Clearly we wouldn't, on the basis that there was no concept of Singapore then. Yet if we employ the modern test for citizenship, they would be considered Singaporean, having been born to parents of Singaporean origin, on Singaporean soil (even if such were not named "Singaporean" until later).

You may certainly call a spade a spade, except for those spade-like things that were used kind of in the same way but not exactly as spades before spades were invented.

 

so if homosexual practices were found back in the Ancient Hellenistic world already, and the bible goes ahead to condemn 'homosexuality', what does this tell you?

 

Also, for most gay men, whom this entire discussion is directed at, homosexual love and homosexual practice are often but two sides molded to form the same coin, so what is the point of drawing distinctions between sex or love when most gay guys arent strictly either or? since the bible uses one paddle to condemn the entirety of 'homosexuality', the entire gay population is guilty one way or the other no matter how you look at it.

 

Having said that, I think that since everyone sins in fair amounts anyway, there is also no point harping on whether one sins as a homosexual, a thief, an arsonist, a liar or whatever, because God's pardon extends to every sinner and that includes the homosexuals. So as long as one wishes to accept this, he or she will be counted worthy to escape God's wrath. The premise of course is that the sinner has to turn back from their ways and lead a whole new life (free of the said sin) in godliness. This is of course easier for some sins and harder for others. So, while the gift (of God's pardon) is the same for everyone, the route to the gift for each one is unfortunately different and that's all there is to be said at this point.

[FirsTimer]

Why some are born so goodlooking? Why some are born so ugly? They can't answer convincingly.

 

Every single thing has to have a flipside to it. The point that some are ugly while others are good-looking is for people to understand the superficiality of appearance. Those who hold the understanding that looks dont matter will ultimately receive more valuable rewards. This causes their "pain" of being looked down on or having self-esteem issues to be paid off. Please dont find that it is unfair for those born "ugly".. Goodness. I personally dont find that to be a defect when compared to other physical disabilities but now I sound like Im looking down on those who are less than gorgeous. Im just trying to relate to what the "shallow" world conveniently thinks to be logical without further questioning or application of critical thinking.. Upon further thoughts, anything "bad" will have a good outcome in the end.. That is, if you can think of it. And not being able to think of it doesnt mean that there isnt any existing good or reward.. It might just be the limitation to our thinking.. =))

 

 

 

Hi Steve 5380, by their logic, other than the SuperNatural, all else are devil. Whatever chinese gods, prophet mohamed, hindu gods all are regarded as evil. I rather worship devils with good logic. I cannot accept reasoning like "I don't know, nobody knows because it is not humanly possible to know, just worship and u will go heaven, all else are not important".

 

Does your "their" means all Christians? I personally do not be mean by calling idols of other religions "devils" right in other people's faces.. And they are not devils. There's only one devil right, and that's Satan and you might to count in any evil spirit that might be lurking out there. Not everyone is that inaccurate in describing reality.. 

 

And I do not say that:

"Not all Christians are that inaccurate in describing reality.." because it is not that people err because they are Christians but that people err because they are simply people.. lol. Not a defensive statement but think about it, no terming should be coupled by anyone with a negative connotation. Just like how it does not make sense in describing Muslims to be more of a terrorist simply because they are of that religion.. Judge each one for what each has done, and dont generalize that all elderlies are senile or all youngsters are plain blockheads. Definitely there will people who dont fit into such generalization rendering that sweeping statement false.. So once again, please dont read up on such thread or article: "Christian Pastor Gets Child To Bj On Him On Church Grounds." and hold more grounds against the entire Christian community. Pick out the possible deceptions that are conditioning your mind.. Why does the sentence have to use "Christian", "Pastor" and the "Church Grounds"? The act itself is bad. And the use of the 3 terms do not make the action any less evil because it is still the same action taken right. Those 3 terms serve to associate Christianity to these negative acts and possibly leaves a mark in your subconscious mind.. Again, it is not the Bible that taught the Pastor to behave like this or failed to guide him to the correct path - it is himself as a person who is conducting himself inappropriately.. =))

[Guest Guest]

First timer, based on the second part of your text, i feel that u are a good Christian, u deserve respect from other non believers including me, and u can be a friend of anyone regardless of religion. The world will be nicer with more people like u. 

 

But on the first part about looks, u reacted just like many of the bigots (u are definitely not a bigot), i failed to see any light from your explanations. Looks defintely matters in reality. U look at media corp. They put those very experienced actors/actresses on their drama, but they don't look good. Many are in their 40s, but they are very skilful in acting. Whereas korean dramas often feature good looking guys, never mind if they can't act very well. Korean dramas sells much better than local dramas. So if u are a broadcasting company, if u don't bother about looks, u will not "ultimately receive more valuable rewards" like what u said. Looks definitely matters especially for gays. Don't believe u just observe. It is superficial, but it is reality.

 

Maybe we should rephrase the question for u, see whether u can explain convincingly. Instead of superficial looks, please explain : Why god makes majority of people able bodied, but a small number of people disabled and inflicted so much suffering on them?

[sliceboy]

Last Sunday, one week before Easter, lawyer Suzanne Chin had her alleged brain-death story published on The Straits Times. Note that she had the interview conducted via E-mail and provided few medical details.

 

This is another example of Christian shrewd marketing. The article was misleading and religiously biased. Christianity has a virtual monopoly on Near-Death Experience stories.

 

It is a good thing that MOH responded the next day and stated that brain-death is an irreversible condition. If Suzanne's god can cure irreversible brain-death, then she and her brother doctor should publish in the science journals and change the brain-death medical protocols.

[curious_boi]

"What we give every week is the measure of the value that you place on your Lord and your saviour Jesus Christ”. “We can lift up our hands to worship god, but if the tithes are still in our pockets, then due tribute has not been given. Then our praises are empty. Our words are empty. There is no value to back it up.”  -- Millionaire Pastor Kong Hee

[slut]

"What we give every week is the measure of the value that you place on your Lord and your saviour Jesus Christ”. “We can lift up our hands to worship god, but if the tithes are still in our pockets, then due tribute has not been given. Then our praises are empty. Our words are empty. There is no value to back it up.”  -- Millionaire Pastor Kong Hee

 

LOLZ

[pop24246]

for AJs whom are christian, do your church and pastor accept you for who you are?

do you reveal your sexual perference to your church?

 

the church will send the gays for counselling and publicly shame the gay .. i feel that this is not constructive. i feel the church should open up and accept gay lifestyle.

 

many of the parishioners are gay or bisexual.  if the discrimination goes on , AJs might as well switch religion

[braveheart]

well, you can be gay and christian. you'll need to answer why you're gay and why you're a christian.

[pop24246]

well, you can be gay and christian. you'll need to answer why you're gay and why you're a christian.

 the pastor stand is that being gay and being christian is not mutually exclusive and thus the persecution of the AJs

[gammaray]

Hope gawd didn't forsaken you. I heard he created man though. Ironic. Him, not you.

[smokey]

Well , Christianity all in all is about love .

The bible is a story book about a long age a love story , about a love that never dies and is unconditional , that doesn't and will never forsake anyone or condemn .

Understanding the bible clear enough , it teaches us to be Christ-like , to be more and more like him .

If you observe carefully , the books that condemn homosexuality is books written by humans . By disciples of Christ , who is appointed to share the word .

As humans we definitely make mistakes . Even when Christ was with the disciples , they already made mistakes .

So who can say they hasn't made any , when disciples of Christ are jailed and condemned , when their human feelings are being penned down on paper while writing letters to the outside world , to the nations ?

And after that , we another generation of humans , hasn't misintepreted what they had been trying to say and then taking the misunderstanding and personal feelings to another whole new different level ?

Even Christ himself mix around with the sinners and tax collectors .

So who are we , as humans condemn homosexual people ?

Saying that we will die and go to hell if Christ himself already claimed our lives and died for us on the cross ?

Edited April 1, 2013 by smokey

[Guest BRIAN]

I WOULD LIKE EVERYONE INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC, TO WATCH THIS VERY POWERFUL VIDEO POSTED ON YOUTUBE ABOUT FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN BELIEVES AND HOW IT MAY NEGATIVELY AFFECT A NOT VERY STABLE AND SPIRITUALLY STRONG PERSON WHO WANTS TO LEAD THE GOOD AND LOVING CHRISTIAN LIFE.

 

IT IS A BIT LONG, BUT TOWARDS THE END , I LIKE THE PART ABOUT THE VICTIM'S FAMILY UNITING AND CHALLENGING THE FOUNDER OF FOCUS ON THE FAMILY TO COME OUT AND LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT 35 YEARS OF HIS TEACHINGS THAT MAY HAVE DRIVEN SOME TEENS TO SUICIDE AND CAUSED SOME FAMILIES ANGUISH OF DISOWNING THEIR OWN CHILDREN FOR COMING OUT GAY.

 

THE VIDEO IS  1HOUR AND 38 MINUTES LONG SO BE PREPARED AND BE COMFORTABLE, BUT IS IS REALLY WORTH WATCHING , BECAUSE IT PRESENTS  SOME NEW READINGS AND INTERPRETATIONS ABOUT THE BIBLE PASSAGE ABOUT SODOM AND GOMORRAH, A PASSAGE THAT IS OFTEN USED TO "BEAT" AND " PULVERISE"  THE GAY LIFE PRACTITIONER.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abcj6kSkO1A