Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[slut]

There are so many different interpretations and since the maker allows so many false prophets to walk among us, how can we be blamed and punished eternally for not believing? Where is the sense of logic? Who speaks true? Can we place absolute faith on some religious documents written by men who are fallible?

 

 

hi love detective, I think that's an absolutely good point you made there. in fact, that was something i contended with just a couple of weeks ago: ie, how can someone who loves us that much bear to 'hurt' us in that manner when there's so much deception around? 

 

However, I also kind of believe that if you wholeheartedly seek the truth, the truth will find you eventually. So in that sense, you cant blame the world for misleading you, but instead you should ask yourself if you've given yourself into being misled.

Edited October 8, 2013 by slut

[Guest gosh!]

hi love detective, I think that's an absolutely good point you made there. in fact, that was something i contended with just a couple of weeks ago: ie, how can someone who loves us that much bear to 'hurt' us in that manner when there's so much deception around?

However, I also kind of believe that if you wholeheartedly seek the truth, the truth will find you eventually. So in that sense, you cant blame the world for misleading you, but instead you should ask yourself if you've given yourself into being misled.

Hi Slut,

I contended abt your first point too... but who are we to understand fully what the Creator is up to when we cant even fully understand the world ard us.

I totally agree with your second point.

[slut]

Hi Slut,

I contended abt your first point too... but who are we to understand fully what the Creator is up to when we cant even fully understand the world ard us.

I totally agree with your second point.

 

haha if you agreed with my second point then you'll also agree that since Truth comes to those who genuinely seek it, you don't need to fully understand the "world ard us" or "what the Creator is up to". If you seek it, it is yours - if you dont, it isn't; regardless of how much you think you understand about the world or the Creator

Edited October 9, 2013 by slut

[thorpe]

I am christian myself and gay. I also study theology and I am sure that God loves everyone, but it is because Human like to set boundaries and use quotes in the bible to defend certain stand which causes conflict between christian and non-christian. So in the end I agree that the r/s between God and U is based on your choices. Religion is based on Law and regulation, but true Christianity is stem on the r/s between God and U. 

 

I am gay for 12 years and a christian for 14 years and till date God is still very real to me and He still leads me and guides me... Though it may be contradicting to some, I am sure there are also alot of gays and christian around who can verify and shared the same notion that God did not abandon them just because they are gay but it is the people who choose to support or disown this christian Ajs among us.

I like and respect you on what u said. very well taken. hope have a chance to meet u soon?hahaha

[Guest gosh!]

I like and respect you on what u said. very well taken. hope have a chance to meet u soon?hahaha

Yes, me too

[Guest Jesus didn't exist?]

Interesting revelation...

 

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

 

Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ' Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.

 

London (PRWEB UK) 8 October 2013

 

American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn (full details can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com).

 

Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. "I present my work with some ambivalence, as I do not want to directly cause Christians any harm," he acknowledges, "but this is important for our culture. Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods. They often do it to obtain a social order that is against the best interests of the common people."

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

 

Was Jesus based on a real person from history? "The short answer is no," Atwill insists, "in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there's simply nothing left."

 

Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

 

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

 

Is this the beginning of the end of Christianity? "Probably not," grants Atwill, "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break. We've got the evidence now to show exactly where the story of Jesus came from. Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."

 

Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."

 

Further information can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com.

About Joseph Atwill: Joseph Atwill is the author of the best-selling book "Caesar's Messiah" and its upcoming sequel "The Single Strand."

[G_M]

Dear God, (my God)

 

Can you please help me make these people, NOT to go out of topic and direct them to discuss about being "Gay & Christian" 

 

And God,

 

Can you be kind enough to help direct those who want to discuss or debate about Lawrence Khong and his clashed with MOM or his Anti LGBT News, to please go to its relevant link.http://www.blowingwind.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=38076

 

Because, I do not want to start scolding or have to lock the thread on their love for you.  

 

And I am sure later some idiots will be pissed at me for doing my job.

 

Thank you God, you have been most kind to listen to my prayers.

 

Amitabah! Amen! God the Great!

[muddywill]

I grew up in a very Christian household. Both of my parents are really conservative socially, poltically, and sexually. They are the biggest prudes. My mom's friends, for example, are surpirsed that she even has kids considering how much she hates talking or acknowledging sex. I do not think I've ever seen them be affectionate towards one another at all.

 

The fact is they do not understand homosexuality at all - often calling it a mental illness. It is for this reason I have not come out to them. I know they will have a very very bad reaction. Growing up, I went to church every week; we would spend our entire day there - because my mom was/is very involved. And I felt like I always had to hide myself - for fear of being judged and the fear of disappointing people who I actually admire and love (older family friends who also went to the same church).

 

Being in church you meet some amazing people, people who are truly compassionate but on the other side, you also meet some of the most bigoted people ever. So while I was taught what it meant to love and care, I also learned what it meant to hate, shun, and shame.

 

Like anything else, religious institutions and the Bible are not perfect. In fact, the Bible is pretty ambigious. In one chapter, it condones killing, and in another it says do not murder. I grew up learning how "perfect" "flawless" "Godly" "divinely-inspired" the Bible was. But I quickly realized that this was not true. The Bible is a book of stories written by humans. Humans who lived in a completely different time with very different values and culture. To think that every sentence or word is perfectly applicable to our modern world is absolutely ludicrious. You can't compare the Bible which talks about creationism and compare it to modern sciencific theories like the Big Bang. Most people like to pull out of their ass some kind of fake battle between Creationism and Evolution/Big Bang (debating which one is true/false) but the truth is, you cannot make that distinction. It is not fair. To the Bible or to science. They are completely incomparable things that resulted from completely different times within human history.

 

Modern life as we know it is very different from the world described in the Bible. That is why we need to view the book with a critical eye and not view it so literally. The value of the book is in its universal teachings of love. Jesus himself was anti-tradtionalist; he threw out thousands of years worth of teaching and practices popular with the Jews. What does that say? It means that change and constant progress is necessary. This world is changing and we must change with it. Jesus taught us to find reasons to love and to do it even when it was difficult (when it threatened your own health &safety as with leprosy & when people questioned your actions as he did when he associated himself with a sinning but repentant tax-collector). Ff you want to follow his example, then we must always strive to improve and find ways to love in deeper and more profound ways - which means challenging societal and even old religious norms.

 

In the end, I came to the conclusion that Christianity is not about God, the holy spirit, or even Jesus. They are just representations of something even greater and more universal. God lives in all of us. We were created by him and together and collectively, we are him. Love is the ultimate expression and recognition of unity, how we are all in some way related and linked spiritually and physically.

 

No institution or single religion can contain it or have jursidiction over it. God, simply put, is love, the connection that binds us all together.

 

Btw. Who says that God and homosexuality is irreconcilable? I pray to God everyday for a boyfriend! Lol!

[Guest Reader]

@Guest

heterosexism / homophobia is a sin for it does not reflect kindness, goodness nor love. And in no way would this piece of information nullify the fact that engaging in sexual acts with another of the same gender is a sin itself..

@Jesus didnt exist?

having parallels dont mean that either one of the story might be a plagerized work of another. They might be mere coincidence. And the human mind attempts to draw links from possibly irrelevant pieces of info and turn them into the state of being possibly relevant and thus convince many many readers (lol). Furthermore, how similar are they? Once the scientist mind has this internal belief that they are similar, his mind would only work to draw attachments and his eyes would only "see" what he wishes to see. Humans are self-deceptive...

[EasleyLim]

@Jesus didnt exist?

having parallels dont mean that either one of the story might be a plagerized work of another. They might be mere coincidence. And the human mind attempts to draw links from possibly irrelevant pieces of info and turn them into the state of being possibly relevant and thus convince many many readers (lol). Furthermore, how similar are they? Once the scientist mind has this internal belief that they are similar, his mind would only work to draw attachments and his eyes would only "see" what he wishes to see. Humans are self-deceptive...

 

True. But that's why we have the peer-reviewing process, do we not?

 

I'm interested to see how well his controversial stand fares in the history and literary circles.

[Guest Guest]

@Guest

heterosexism / homophobia is a sin for it does not reflect kindness, goodness nor love. And in no way would this piece of information nullify the fact that engaging in sexual acts with another of the same gender is a sin itself...

If two men engage in sexual acts out of love and their relationship reflects goodness and kindness, is it still considered sinful?

As long as it is done by heterosexual couples, whether out of love or lust or selfish intentions , it will be considered holy and perfect in God's eyes?

[Gray]

@Guest

heterosexism / homophobia is a sin for it does not reflect kindness, goodness nor love. And in no way would this piece of information nullify the fact that engaging in sexual acts with another of the same gender is a sin itself..

@Jesus didnt exist?

having parallels dont mean that either one of the story might be a plagerized work of another. They might be mere coincidence. And the human mind attempts to draw links from possibly irrelevant pieces of info and turn them into the state of being possibly relevant and thus convince many many readers (lol). Furthermore, how similar are they? Once the scientist mind has this internal belief that they are similar, his mind would only work to draw attachments and his eyes would only "see" what he wishes to see. Humans are self-deceptive...

 

You know nothing of how scientists work if you think that way (lol). The scientific process involves a whole lot of hypothesis testing and peer review before it becomes validated as fact. It's a community effort; not the work of one self deceptive man as you seem to imply.

 

Ironically, your "scientist mind" theory happens to perfectly describe the minds of another group of individuals, particularly .... 

 

[Guest Guest]

You know nothing of how scientists work if you think that way (lol). The scientific process involves a whole lot of hypothesis testing and peer review before it becomes validated as fact. It's a community effort; not the work of one self deceptive man as you seem to imply.

 

Ironically, your "scientist mind" theory happens to perfectly describe the minds of another group of individuals, particularly .... 

 

i know which group u are talking about. 

[Guest zxcvbdfgh]

If people of christian faith can use their logical mind more , then we can have a civil and lively discussions about the origins of the christian faith , the history of its development, the question about why today there are so many denominations , each with its own interpretations about the bible,

 

Christians of today like to believe that there is one true way of belief, if only they study the history of the church, the early christians are not like the church of today, there were no church buildings, there were no priest, pastors, no musical big band electric guitar, no mega collection for mega chrurches, no gigantic fund raising.

 

Some chinese have a very good description about some things they observe about our world, they say " sin ya si ee, kui ya si ee " . Translated it says " you say you are god, and then you say there exist also  demon and evil , actually all the troubles started because you play the role of god and then the devil, and then god again, interchangebly .

 

If you all have the inquisitive mind, and want to learn more it is good to watch the BBC documentary about the history about the believe of satan, how through the early years , the church had to argue about the role of satan, and the satan in the old testament , and the jews look at the devil and satan very differently. The ducumentary argues that the church had to invent and develop the role of the devil satan, it is very mind challenging.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1UfYAoKTrs

 

 

after all the missteps of the church, and the controversial and sometimes hurtful ways of dealing with reality , like discriminating against sexual minorities, I think the church should stick to what it knows best,

 

which is selling us the idea of the unknown afterlife, because it fails miserably when the light logical thinking is cast upon a lot of its teaching .

[Guest Guest]

[Guest Readuh]

You know nothing of how scientists work if you think that way (lol). The scientific process involves a whole lot of hypothesis testing and peer review before it becomes validated as fact. It's a community effort; not the work of one self deceptive man as you seem to imply.

Ironically, your "scientist mind" theory happens to perfectly describe the minds of another group of individuals, particularly ....

How convincing. It might be you.

[Gray]

How convincing. It might be you.

I already knew that people with common sense would get it. I mean, how can it be anything other than convincing? Lol.

About the second part, I'm not sure what you're implying exactly. After all, I could be many things but there are some things I try to stay away from. Like drawing my own conclusions about reality from an old book and the sky daddy of that book. Or dismissing centuries' worth of scientific studies as irrelevant when the very basic technology and infrastructure of the society which we live in is achieved through human research and study. Its a little too er... How should i put it... Self deceptive for my liking?

But in any case I'm glad you reaffirmed my position. Thanks, it made my day.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Gray

[Guest Guest]

I already knew that people with common sense would get it. I mean, how can it be anything other than convincing? Lol.

About the second part, I'm not sure what you're implying exactly. After all, I could be many things but there are some things I try to stay away from. Like drawing my own conclusions about reality from an old book and the sky daddy of that book. Or dismissing centuries' worth of scientific studies as irrelevant when the very basic technology and infrastructure of the society which we live in is achieved through human research and study. Its a little too er... How should i put it... Self deceptive for my liking?

But in any case I'm glad you reaffirmed my position. Thanks, it made my day.

Logical people can only talk to logical people. Illogical people can only talk to illogical people. If a logical person talk to an illogical person, the illogical person will always win, the logical person will always lose. I believe u can understand what i am trying to say. And i can also understand your mind, because some time ago, someone also told me about "generation sins", totally make no sense to me at all.

 

Sky daddy, that is real funny. In case u not aware, another name is ABBA. U know the song "gimme gimme gimme a man after midnight", abba song.

 

Cheers.

[Guest Guest]

'Jesus Christ' Challenges AIDS Walk Los Angeles Anti-Gay Protesters

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/14/jesus-aids-walk-los-angeles_n_4096305.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

[Guest Guest]

There will be endless debates, but all I know is His love and peace has flooded my soul, light has dawn in my heart in a world of darkness when i welcome Him into my life. He accepts me and love me,even though I am imperfect and has done things that I m not proud of..He walks with me through the ups and downs of life. His comforting Presence helps me to go through the toughest moments in life and make it more bearable. moreover,He healed me of asthma and heart sickness.Thank you,Jesus.Jesus,you rocks! Forever I am indebted to You. Life is not a bed of roses,but You are the one who will always be my side. I love You.

[Love detective]

I feel that it's possible to accept the existence of a creator without needing to have faith in any of the holy documents when they turn out to have lots of inaccuracies opened to different forms of interpretation which often lead to more confusion than clarity. For those struggling souls, it's better to let go than holding on to a contradiction. Why look like a fervent believer on the surface while trying to bury your doubts? Why suffer so much by trying to convince yourself of some interpretations that deep inside you find so hard to accept?

[Steve5380]

I grew up in a very Christian household. Both of my parents are really conservative socially, poltically, and sexually. They are the biggest prudes. My mom's friends, for example, are surpirsed that she even has kids considering how much she hates talking or acknowledging sex. I do not think I've ever seen them be affectionate towards one another at all.

 

The fact is they do not understand homosexuality at all - often calling it a mental illness. It is for this reason I have not come out to them. I know they will have a very very bad reaction. Growing up, I went to church every week; we would spend our entire day there - because my mom was/is very involved. And I felt like I always had to hide myself - for fear of being judged and the fear of disappointing people who I actually admire and love (older family friends who also went to the same church).

-------------

Btw. Who says that God and homosexuality is irreconcilable? I pray to God everyday for a boyfriend! Lol!

 

muddywill,  you know that your parents will have a very bad reaction if you come out,  and you surely don't want to hurt them.  But... do you realize that their destiny HAS GIVEN them a son who is gay?  Could there be a meaning in this?  Some would speculate that it is 'karma'.   Could it be a source of GROWTH for them to know that they have a gay son and go through the process of dealing with this?  Could it be better for them in the long run to know their truth instead of you hiding it from them for all your or their life?

 

And then there is the issue of your personal life.  We don't choose our parents and their likenesses, ideologies.  We have the right to live our lives according to what our nature is.  Are you willing to be disloyal to yourself for the sake of how your parents would react to this or that?  Nobody is perfect. You can still admire your parents and friends from this religious environment, while accepting that they are terribly wrong in their ideas about homosexuality. And perhaps they deserve to know this.

 

It is so nice that you pray to God for a boyfriend.  But what if your desire gets granted and it turns out like it was a gift from the devil?

[Steve5380]

During the time when I was a Christian struggling to reconcile my sexuality with the religion, I was just hanging at the lower end of this rope called Salvation and God was holding the other end in Heaven. The fear that God would cut the rope to punish my sin as a gay haunted me endlessly. Will the rope be cut or do I have the strength to pull myself up to heaven and finally meet up with Him? I know all the bible teachings about the issue. But I didn't have peace.

 

I could find no reconciliation between my sexuality and the religion and decided to let go of my hands. I went into free fall for many years peeling of the layers of guilt, fear and doubts. When I finally hit the bottom there was no hell. When I lifted my head up there was no heaven either. I realised then I just came back to earth, a beautiful blue planet without the Devil or God.

 

I admire those of you who can reconcile the Christian faith and your sexuality. But I'm happier now not being a Christian. May God bless you.

 

Like another poster did, I also like your post.  I find so hilarious your "rope of salvation", with God holding one end and you are clinging to the other.  And when you did let go,  the layers of gilt, fear and doubts kept pealing away!   I personally could never take seriously this God,  although I had a super-Catholic upbringing,  but I was tied down by the rope of my rigid belief of "what I SHOULD BE",  and this didn't accept homosexuality.  Little by little I was able to free myself from this rope. Now I am what I SHOULD BE and this includes a happy gay nature.  And I am still a Christian for what I think is the only valid reason: to follow the PHILOSOPHY of Christ.  I don't care for what all the invented Christian organized religions have made out of Christ's message, I would think that they are all the work of the Devil,  if I could believe in the Devil.   

[muddywill]

muddywill,  you know that your parents will have a very bad reaction if you come out,  and you surely don't want to hurt them.  But... do you realize that their destiny HAS GIVEN them a son who is gay?  Could there be a meaning in this?  Some would speculate that it is 'karma'.   Could it be a source of GROWTH for them to know that they have a gay son and go through the process of dealing with this?  Could it be better for them in the long run to know their truth instead of you hiding it from them for all your or their life?

 

And then there is the issue of your personal life.  We don't choose our parents and their likenesses, ideologies.  We have the right to live our lives according to what our nature is.  Are you willing to be disloyal to yourself for the sake of how your parents would react to this or that?  Nobody is perfect. You can still admire your parents and friends from this religious environment, while accepting that they are terribly wrong in their ideas about homosexuality. And perhaps they deserve to know this.

 

It is so nice that you pray to God for a boyfriend.  But what if your desire gets granted and it turns out like it was a gift from the devil?

 

i guess you have a point.

 Ever since I was in middle school, I have wanted to come out to them. As parents, you're supposed to love unconditionally and I believe most parents do - however that doesn't mean that parents aren't capable of doing very hateful things. But I guess I simply do not have the confidence or the strength to handle the possibiliity of rejection.

 

And some random thoughts:

 

You know, it's really strange. My aunt always says that "God will provide you with what you need". I guess technically, I have everything I "need". But what about what I want, what I yearn for, what I seek everyday? What about the blessed things such as love, connection, peace, happiness, and acceptance? It seems like I get only fleeting moments of hope where I can feel secure and happy but then that security is taken abruptly away. 

 

As much as I "believe" in God, I struggle with the idea of loving him because what is the point of putting a miserable creature like me on this earth for? I wonder everyday whether he even has a "plan", whether all this pain and suffering will be worth it..... 

 

Every single part of me struggles with believing in God. But there's something about not believing that scares me too. Because then it means I really am alone.

[Guest Ouch]

Every single part of me struggles with believing in God. But there's something about not believing that scares me too. Because then it means I really am alone.

 

I guess you should just give up now. Believing out of fear of loneliness.. Ouch.

[Steve5380]

i guess you have a point.

 Ever since I was in middle school, I have wanted to come out to them. As parents, you're supposed to love unconditionally and I believe most parents do - however that doesn't mean that parents aren't capable of doing very hateful things. But I guess I simply do not have the confidence or the strength to handle the possibiliity of rejection.

 

And some random thoughts:

 

You know, it's really strange. My aunt always says that "God will provide you with what you need". I guess technically, I have everything I "need". But what about what I want, what I yearn for, what I seek everyday? What about the blessed things such as love, connection, peace, happiness, and acceptance? It seems like I get only fleeting moments of hope where I can feel secure and happy but then that security is taken abruptly away. 

 

As much as I "believe" in God, I struggle with the idea of loving him because what is the point of putting a miserable creature like me on this earth for? I wonder everyday whether he even has a "plan", whether all this pain and suffering will be worth it..... 

 

Every single part of me struggles with believing in God. But there's something about not believing that scares me too. Because then it means I really am alone.

 

muddywill,  let me start from the end: not believing in God could make you feel that your really are alone.  Does this mean that you get company from your God?  If so I will feel much envy,  because in my whole life I have never felt even a hint of the existence of a God.  And I attended so many masses...

 

I also never believed that we have an "immortal soul" that separates us from the animals.   Therefore, if a God does not exist, not only are you not alone in this situation but accompanied by seven BILLION humans,  but the whole Animal Kingdom is with you, is with us.  I don't know WHAT we are,  but all living creatures we are in the same predicament, which is horrible if we think about, but we fortunately can and should completely ignore it.

 

Your aunt always says: "God will provide you with what you need".  With all my respect for her, can you believe this?  I have no idea of your age, but if you are an adult you can open your eyes.  Look around and see the dare need of so many people around you!  And we humans are blessed... look at the need of animals, who must eat each other, starve, perish like nothing in a daily occurrence.  WHERE is God here?  

 

It is hard to know because we don't speak with them, but I believe that most animals don't have the luxury to be happy. Their first goal is to survive.  We instead have what we need to survive, but then comes to the forefront that what we want, we yearn for, we seek.  There is no guarantee that we will get our desires satisfied, there is no law in nature that takes care of that.  

 

When we look at reality we immediately realize that happiness is not a given,  there is not even a leaning of natural life towards happiness.  But there is a big source of hope:  happiness can be cultivated. It is an attitude, a state of mind. 

 

Hopefully you can soon graduate from this idea that there must be a God who put us on this earth for a purpose, that there is a predefined destiny for us, a plan.  Hopefully you become an agnostic, and think in terms of probabilities,  and assign to the above a probability of, say, 0.00000001%  This means, that it is nearly certain that organized religion is a bunch of fantasies dumped on us for who knows what purpose,  and we are left (and also free) to do what our intelligence allows us to do,  which is to cultivate our happiness.

 

This means that if you are an adult, and self-supporting, self-sufficient,  you have the freedom to do what is best for you, in a selfish attitude that is by far the most helpful for everybody:  help yourself, so you will be able to help others.  If you are happy,  you will be able to pass happiness to your family regardless of what they think about your sexual orientation,  which is purely YOUR business to begin with.  And maybe....  you will be able to convince your aunt to start reasoning (it's never too late) and get rid of her stupid sanctimonious ideas.

 

It must be very attractive to a potential boyfriend to find a person who is happy, who can control his feelings and consciously drop the negative ones and reinforce the positive ones, who has an optimistic outlook and doesn't get depressed easily.  Something to work on, to cultivate, perhaps through some meditation too?  The cultivation of our happiness could be the best investment of our time, and it does not need any special equipment or setup.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

I feel that it's possible to accept the existence of a creator without needing to have faith in any of the holy documents when they turn out to have lots of inaccuracies opened to different forms of interpretation which often lead to more confusion than clarity. For those struggling souls, it's better to let go than holding on to a contradiction. Why look like a fervent believer on the surface while trying to bury your doubts? Why suffer so much by trying to convince yourself of some interpretations that deep inside you find so hard to accept?

 

Good work, detective.  It is also possible to have a blessed perspective:  "I don't know anything about the mysteries of religion and I believe NOBODY does, because it may be beyond our capacity as humans to know".  This is the formula to be a happy agnostic, free of all the speculations, concerns, worries, and fears about gods and spirits and creators.  It is perfectly possible to live a righteous, fulfilling life while having total ignorance of the supernatural.

[Guest Guest]

Steve, this thing about "beyond human capacity to comprehend" and "we cannot apply our human logic on the creator which is not human but a supernatural" is absurdity in the first degree. This was mentioned in the past, not by you of course. 

[jolterxtreme]

If you love God, you will obey to his command.

 

If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

 

i can say that u cant be gay christian, u are either a gay(sinner) or a christian. And personal experience, devil manifested in me before, not possession. I cld visual it like an dark ooze and It's like a root, stem to my heart feeling that gives momentum excitement and anger to encounters. Why wld I put it this way, it's because god (in name of jesus christ) freed me and I cld distinguish the moment that the root was ripped away. It was relieved, and righteous and you are with god and he is with you feeling. very strong.

 

I got back to my bad ways again, cause the tempt was to believe the I was not in my right mind and I watched gay porns and addicted. But now, I clearly know the feeling of the sinful desires and the difference of being with god feelings. I thought it will be good to share with some of guys here.

 

Infact, the tempter is real. god is real. this is what I have to share. 

 

I am struggling now, to have faith in god even I know his greatness and truth. But I need to let you know that life is too short for many like us to turn to him(Jesus).

[Guest Raiden Alpha]

Not address to anyone just a general voice out.

Why not just renounce faith in Christianity or choose to convert to a different religion?Try living on your own without relying on god intervention and man made doctrines.

There is a inner good voice in all of us that guide us away from wreck and ruins. I find it easier listening inward to this source rather than trying to catch the gabble outside.

[slut]

Steve, this thing about "beyond human capacity to comprehend" and "we cannot apply our human logic on the creator which is not human but a supernatural" is absurdity in the first degree. This was mentioned in the past, not by you of course. 

 

can you please explain why that's 'absurd'?

[Steve5380]

If you love God, you will obey to his command.

 

If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

 

i can say that u cant be gay christian, u are either a gay(sinner) or a christian. And personal experience, devil manifested in me before, not possession. I cld visual it like an dark ooze and It's like a root, stem to my heart feeling that gives momentum excitement and anger to encounters. Why wld I put it this way, it's because god (in name of jesus christ) freed me and I cld distinguish the moment that the root was ripped away. It was relieved, and righteous and you are with god and he is with you feeling. very strong.

 

I got back to my bad ways again, cause the tempt was to believe the I was not in my right mind and I watched gay porns and addicted. But now, I clearly know the feeling of the sinful desires and the difference of being with god feelings. I thought it will be good to share with some of guys here.

 

Infact, the tempter is real. god is real. this is what I have to share. 

 

I am struggling now, to have faith in god even I know his greatness and truth. But I need to let you know that life is too short for many like us to turn to him(Jesus).

 

You wrote: "If you love God, you will obey to his command."  To LOVE a God!    How you LOVE a God without having a serious case of anthropomorphism?   Do you love the sun,  the moon,  the Milky Way galaxy, the universe?  We hear about this "Love to / from God all the time as Christians.  But I think the Christian organized religions have exploited the idea of "love" as a way to attract followers.

 

To "love" or "be loved by" a divinity makes little sense. We better apply our emotions to living creatures like we are.  For example, to love our pet.   And to "obey" out of some misdirected emotion of love makes us a puppet of what some religious organization wants us to believe.  A REAL divinity would not have any need to be "obeyed". 

 

If having faith in your God would be the right thing to have,  then you would not be struggling with that, but you would be blessed and in peace.  Don't you think that something in you is not in agreement with this "faith"?   Maybe an instinct, a reasoning power that is one of your assets as a human being?

 

You need to be loyal to yourself and realize that being gay is something perfectly normal and acceptable.  From this fundamental basis, you can always accept the teachings of Christ as a philosophy,  or even as a religion if you need so,  just ignoring the artificial, invented condemnation of homosexuality.  Christ never said a word against gays.  You can always find a Christian church that is not against homosexuality. 

 

You can free yourself from these beliefs in devils and rules that most probably are nothing but nonsense,  and live the happy life you deserve.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Steve5380

[muddywill]

Lol. Believing in god is important for me though. As much as my mind wants to have a more secular view of the world, my heart wants to continue and believe. With any faith based religion, i cannot show you facts with which to base my beliefs. But even if god did not exist, i think believing in him is still better than not just because it gives me some hope. Have you guys ever read Life of Pi or watched the movie?

[Guest Guest]

can you please explain why that's 'absurd'?

 

It is the bad logic and reasoning that surrounds the obsession and glorification of sky daddy. I think Steve5380 is in a better position to explain this as he grew up as a christian and he study bible. I have never accepted Christ because i feel that those people who try to convert me offers me very poor reasoning and totally doesn't make sense at all, and i was not convinced by the things that they told me.

[Steve5380]

It is the bad logic and reasoning that surrounds the obsession and glorification of sky daddy. I think Steve5380 is in a better position to explain this as he grew up as a christian and he study bible. I have never accepted Christ because i feel that those people who try to convert me offers me very poor reasoning and totally doesn't make sense at all, and i was not convinced by the things that they told me.

 

I don't have the authority to 'explain',  but maybe we can reason together.  When we look at other species, it becomes clear that we may have limits to our knowledge like they have.  The fish swimming in a bowl in a room without a view to the outside will never be able to learn about our solar system, no matter how intelligent they are.  If there is a supernatural out there, it seems that we humans don't have the senses to perceive it.  And if we do have them, then every one of us should have a chance at perceiving it.  I never have, 

 

Ah, but we don't have senses to detect radio waves and we surely are able to do that!  Maybe in the future our science will be so advanced that we will be able to tune into the supernatural and understand it.   Well, it's possible.  There may be also some celestial body in the vast universe which is made of blue cheese.  But TODAY there is no such possibility.  And it surely didn't exist 5000 years ago when Moses came down from the mountain, or 2000 years ago when Christ allegedly resurrected.  So anything that will be possible IN THE FUTURE  does not give credence to the religious stories we are told today.

 

Ah, but maybe the Bible and the miracles of Christ were the work of extraterrestrials who came from other worlds which have the science to do all the miraculous things!   Well, in this case, the Genesis with God creating everything in seven days and Adam and Eve out of dust... is a childish story that these extraterrestrials invented for consumption by us primitive humans.  Why should one believe in these fairy tales  (and especially, the nonsense that homosexuality is "sin"?)

 

What is better,  ignorance or false information?  I choose ignorance.   Because ignorance leaves all the possibilities open, and does not enslave to questionable dogmas imposed by fear and enticement.   It gives us the freedom to be guided by our own inborn moral sense, which turns out to be quite good!

[jolterxtreme]

If having faith in your God would be the right thing to have,  then you would not be struggling with that, but you would be blessed and in peace.  Don't you think that something in you is not in agreement with this "faith"?   Maybe an instinct, a reasoning power that is one of your assets as a human being?

 

I am given freewill to follow or reject. so do you. I said already. God is real. Tempter is real. I described the feeling and gush I have and describe in a manner to be perceive. faith is to believe or not. 

 

Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.” -Matthew 13

[EasleyLim]

I don't have the authority to 'explain',  but maybe we can reason together.  When we look at other species, it becomes clear that we may have limits to our knowledge like they have.  The fish swimming in a bowl in a room without a view to the outside will never be able to learn about our solar system, no matter how intelligent they are.  If there is a supernatural out there, it seems that we humans don't have the senses to perceive it.  And if we do have them, then every one of us should have a chance at perceiving it.  I never have, 

 

Ah, but we don't have senses to detect radio waves and we surely are able to do that!  Maybe in the future our science will be so advanced that we will be able to tune into the supernatural and understand it.   Well, it's possible.  There may be also some celestial body in the vast universe which is made of blue cheese.  But TODAY there is no such possibility.  And it surely didn't exist 5000 years ago when Moses came down from the mountain, or 2000 years ago when Christ allegedly resurrected.  So anything that will be possible IN THE FUTURE  does not give credence to the religious stories we are told today.

 

Ah, but maybe the Bible and the miracles of Christ were the work of extraterrestrials who came from other worlds which have the science to do all the miraculous things!   Well, in this case, the Genesis with God creating everything in seven days and Adam and Eve out of dust... is a childish story that these extraterrestrials invented for consumption by us primitive humans.  Why should one believe in these fairy tales  (and especially, the nonsense that homosexuality is "sin"?)

 

What is better,  ignorance or false information?  I choose ignorance.   Because ignorance leaves all the possibilities open, and does not enslave to questionable dogmas imposed by fear and enticement.   It gives us the freedom to be guided by our own inborn moral sense, which turns out to be quite good!

 

So in short, we do not have enough knowledge or have sufficient rational grounds, at this point in time, to justify either belief: that there exists some deity, or that no deities exist?

[Steve5380]

So in short, we do not have enough knowledge or have sufficient rational grounds, at this point in time, to justify either belief: that there exists some deity, or that no deities exist?

 

Exactly.  If we had enough knowledge, or sufficient rational grounds to justify the existence of a deity,  there would not be countless contradictory religions around and a large group of atheists.  Notice that in subjects WE KNOW,  there is little controversy.  There is practically ONE physics,  ONE law of gravity that says that masses attract each other.  If it were like religion, one "physics" would say that if we let loose of an object it falls down, while another "physics" would say that it raises UP.  

[EasleyLim]

Exactly.  If we had enough knowledge, or sufficient rational grounds to justify the existence of a deity,  there would not be countless contradictory religions around and a large group of atheists.  Notice that in subjects WE KNOW,  there is little controversy.  There is practically ONE physics,  ONE law of gravity that says that masses attract each other.  If it were like religion, one "physics" would say that if we let loose of an object it falls down, while another "physics" would say that it raises UP.  

 

Welcome to agnosticism, my friend.

[Guest Guest]

http://cwg.org/index.php?b=559&fb_action_ids=10201697291541704&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210201697291541704%22%3A1397198987176739%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210201697291541704%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Why is life turning out the way it is turning out? Why is love so often so hard to find, and then to keep? Why is goodness and kindness and compassion and even a smiling face sometimes so hard to find in our day-to-day experience? Must our lives consist of drama, drama, and more drama day in and day out?

I get asked questions like these a lot, and as I turn to the Conversations with God dialogues to find answers, here is some of what I uncover, in these words from God:

Every human thought, and every human action, is based in either love or fear. There is no other human motivation, and all other ideas are but derivatives of these two. They are simply different versions --- different twists on the same theme. Think on this deeply and you will see that it is true.

This is what God has called the Sponsoring Thought. It is either a thought of love or fear. This is the thought behind the thought behind the thought. It is the first thought. It is prime force. It is the raw energy that drives the engine of human experience.

And here is how human behavior produces repeat experience after repeat experience; it is why humans love, then destroy, then love again: always there is the swing from one emotion to the other. Love sponsors fear sponsors love sponsors fear …

… and the reason is found in the first lie --- the lie which you hold as the truth about God --- that God cannot be trusted; that God’s love cannot be depended upon; that God’s acceptance of you is conditional; that the ultimate outcome is thus in doubt. For if you cannot depend on God’s love to always be there, on whose love can you depend? If God retreats and withdraws when you do not perform properly, will not mere mortals also?

…And so it is that in the moment you pledge your highest love, you greet your greatest fear. For the first thing you worry about after saying “I love you” is whether you’ll hear it back. And if you hear it back, then you begin immediately to worry that the love you have just found, you will lose. And so all action becomes a reaction --- defense against loss.

Yet if you knew Who You Are --- that you are the most magnificent, the most remarkable, the most splendid being God has ever created --- you would never fear. But you do not know Who You Are, and you think you are a great deal less.

And where did you get the idea of how much less than magnificent you are? From the only people whose word you would take on everything. From your mother and your father. These are the people who love you the most. Why would they lie to you? Yet have they not told you that you are too much of this, and not enough of that? Have they not reminded you that you are to be seen and not heard? Have they not scolded you in some of the moments of your greatest exuberance? And, did they not encourage you to set aside some of your wildest imagining?

These are the messages you’ve received, and though they do not meet the criteria, and are thus not messages from God, they might as well have been, for they have come from the gods of your universe surely enough. It was your parents who taught you that love is conditional – you have felt their conditions many times – and that is the experience you take into your own love relationships.

It is also the experience you bring to God. From this experience you draw your conclusions about God. Within this framework you speak your truth. “God is a loving God,” you say, “but if you break His commandments, He will punish you with eternal banishment and everlasting damnation.” For have you not experienced the banishment of your own parents? Do you not know the pain of their damnation? How, then, could you imagine it to be any different with God?

You have forgotten what it was like to be loved without condition. You do not remember the experience of the love of God. And so you try to imagine what God’s love must be like, based on what you see of love in the world. You have projected the role of “parent” onto God, and have thus come up with a God Who judges and rewards or punishes, based on how good He feels about what you’ve been up to. But this is a simplistic view of God, based on your mythology. It has nothing to do with Who God is.

Having thus created an entire thought system about God based on human experience rather than spiritual truths, you then create an entire reality around love. It is a fear-based reality, rooted in the idea of a fearful, vengeful God. Its Sponsoring Thought is wrong, but to deny that thought would be to disrupt your whole theology. And though the new theology which would replace it would truly be your salvation, you cannot accept it, because the idea of a God Who is not to be feared, Who will not judge, and Who has no cause to punish is simply too magnificent to be embraced within even your grandest notion of Who and What God is.

This fear-based love reality dominates your experience of love; indeed, actually creates it. For not only do you see yourself receiving love which is conditional, you also watch yourself giving it in the same way. And even while you withhold and retreat and set your conditions, a part of you knows this is not what love really is. Still, you seem powerless to change the way you dispense it. You’ve learned the hard way, you tell yourself, and you’ll be damned if you’re going to leave yourself vulnerable again.

Yet the truth is, you’ll be damned if you don’t.

[slut]

Welcome to agnosticism, my friend.

 

agnosticism is pretty dumb actually lol guess why?

 

if there isnt a God rite, then nothing matters so all choices are equal. However, if there is a God rite, I expect that He'd want you to make a choice for him and so not all choices are equal. In this case, agnostics will get it regardless of which God turns out to be true lol (assuming that an outcome called Hell exists for non-believers)

 

So basically, other religions offer better after-life outcomes than Agnosticism

[Guest Guest]

Exactly.  If we had enough knowledge, or sufficient rational grounds to justify the existence of a deity,  there would not be countless contradictory religions around and a large group of atheists.  Notice that in subjects WE KNOW,  there is little controversy.  There is practically ONE physics,  ONE law of gravity that says that masses attract each other.  If it were like religion, one "physics" would say that if we let loose of an object it falls down, while another "physics" would say that it raises UP.  

Question is if there is insufficient knowledge and evidence, what is the justification for so much idolisation, obsession and glorification? Of course, this question is not directed at you, but to those evangelists. 

 

They ask me to go there on sunday and tell me "can u feel so much love from HIM", "how blessed u are". i couldn't feel the love and the blessing, couldn't feel anything at all

[EasleyLim]

agnosticism is pretty dumb actually lol guess why?

 

if there isnt a God rite, then nothing matters so all choices are equal. However, if there is a God rite, I expect that He'd want you to make a choice for him and so not all choices are equal. In this case, agnostics will get it regardless of which God turns out to be true lol (assuming that an outcome called Hell exists for non-believers)

 

So basically, other religions offer better after-life outcomes than Agnosticism

 

Not necessarily.

 

There have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many conceptions of God (or gods). So going by your scenario, we need to factor all of them in when making a decision as to which god(s) to follow. But when you do that, it leads to a high probability of believing in "the wrong god", thus it eliminates the mathematical advantage that one gets from this line of thinking. Another way of refuting this logic is that that for every religion with some specific rules, there exists another religion that has rules of the opposite kind. So if a certain action leads one closer to salvation in the former religion then it stands that it also leads one further away from it in the latter. Therefore, the expected value of following a certain religion could be negative. Or one could also argue that there is an infinite number of mutually exclusive religions (which is a subset of the set of all possible religions), and that the probability of any one of them being true is 0, therefore the expected value of following a certain religion is 0.

Tl;DR: Pick or don't pick, you will still get fucked over so might as well don't waste energy. It's also no more dumber than believing in a religion. 

 

 

Question is if there is insufficient knowledge and evidence, what is the justification for so much idolisation, obsession and glorification? Of course, this question is not directed at you, but to those evangelists. 

 

They ask me to go there on sunday and tell me "can u feel so much love from HIM", "how blessed u are". i couldn't feel the love and the blessing, couldn't feel anything at all

 

To some people, feeling is more than enough for them to believe in God.

 

But for most people...

 

Edited October 19, 2013 by EasleyLim

[slut]

Not necessarily.

 

There have been many religions throughout history, and therefore many conceptions of God (or gods). So going by your scenario, we need to factor all of them in when making a decision as to which god(s) to follow. But when you do that, it leads to a high probability of believing in "the wrong god", thus it eliminates the mathematical advantage that one gets from this line of thinking. Another way of refuting this logic is that that for every religion with some specific rules, there exists another religion that has rules of the opposite kind. So if a certain action leads one closer to salvation in the former religion then it stands that it also leads one further away from it in the latter. Therefore, the expected value of following a certain religion could be negative. Or one could also argue that there is an infinite number of mutually exclusive religions (which is a subset of the set of all possible religions), and that the probability of any one of them being true is 0, therefore the expected value of following a certain religion is 0.

Tl;DR: Pick or don't pick, you will still get fucked over. So might as well don't waste energy.

 

 

Regardless of which God turns out to be true, as long as that particular religion has an outcome called 'hell', then Agnostics are screwed. So if there are 10 such religions out of a possible 50 religions, that means an agnostic has a 1/5 chance of screwing himself up. If you picked any of the 10 religions that believe in hell, the chances of you screwing up is less,  ie 9/50.

 

Thats 2% in your favour for free, so you cannot be indifferent between the two.

[EasleyLim]

Regardless of which God turns out to be true, as long as that particular religion has an outcome called 'hell', then Agnostics are screwed. So if there are 10 such religions out of a possible 50 religions, that means an agnostic has a 1/5 chance of screwing himself up. If you picked any of the 10 religions that believe in hell, the chances of you screwing up is less,  ie 9/50.

 

Thats 2% in your favour for free, so you cannot be indifferent between the two.

 

Why just those 10 out of the 50? Why not all 50 of them? As an agnostic atheist, I have no reason to exclude the other 40 because they're all equally (un)real to me. Once you assume that only 10 have any chance of being the real deal, you're claiming you have probable cause or knowledge of the supernatural and that means you're no long agnostic but theistic.

[slut]

Why just those 10 out of the 50? Why not all 50 of them? As an agnostic atheist, I have no reason to exclude the other 40 because they're all equally (un)real to me. Once you assume that only 10 have any chance of being the real deal, you're claiming you have probable cause or knowledge of the supernatural and that means you're no long agnostic but theistic.

 

lol no what i meant was assuming 10 out of 50 religions have an outcome for non-believers called Hell.

We are not concerned with the other 40 because if there isnt an punitive outcome for non-believers, then essentially all religions are considered equivalents in terms of outcomes for their followers.

[EasleyLim]

lol no what i meant was assuming 10 out of 50 religions have an outcome for non-believers called Hell.

We are not concerned with the other 40 because if there isnt an punitive outcome for non-believers, then essentially all religions are considered equivalents in terms of outcomes for their followers.

 

Ah! I see what you mean now. But my stand remains the same, that is I have no reason to not consider the other religions with or without some form of underworld punishment. It's a bit silly to limit the religions that has some form of underworld because frankly, I can't think of one that doesn't have and it's also quite impossible to calculate the total number of religions in this world. In your scenario, you limited the total number of religion with hell to just 50, so 1 out of 50 gets you 2%. But realistically speaking there's definitely more than 50 religions in this world even if we don't include the different branched out ones. So statistically, the difference it's not significant enough to make me consider one religion over another. You 2% chanc of picking the right religion and doing the right thing will be reduce to near 0%.

[slut]

Ah! I see what you mean now. But my stand remains the same, that is I have no reason to not consider the other religions with or without some form of underworld punishment. It's a bit silly to limit the religions that has some form of underworld because frankly, I can't think of one that doesn't have and it's also quite impossible to calculate the total number of religions in this world. In your scenario, you limited the total number of religion with hell to just 50, so 1 out of 50 gets you 2%. But realistically speaking there's definitely more than 50 religions in this world even if we don't include the different branched out ones. So statistically, the difference it's not significant enough to make me consider one religion over another. You 2% chanc of picking the right religion and doing the right thing will be reduce to near 0%.

 

actually the 2% is just some random advantage given to illustrate the benefits of picking a religion that believes in hell (as an outcome) as opposed to agnosticism; it wasnt the percent of hell-believing religions in my eg - that would be 20% or 1 in 5. Factoring out the choice of picking a hell-believing religion gets you 9/50 or 18%. 20-18=2.

 

NB: you might be right only if there are inordinately high number of 'hell-believing' religions (and consequently a inordinately high number of religions) such that the benefit of picking a hell-believing religion is drowned out by the sheer number of religions. However, quick research on google tells you that there are only about 40-50 religions with a handful (around 8?) believing in hell. 

Edited October 19, 2013 by slut

[EasleyLim]

NB: you might be right only if there are inordinately high number of 'hell-believing' religions (and consequently a inordinately high number of religions) such that the benefit of picking a hell-believing religion is drowned out by the sheer number of religions. However, quick research on google tells you that there are only about 40-50 religions with a handful (around 8?) believing in hell. 

 

Not necessary. Let's use the abrahamic religions as example. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all abrahamic in origin, so let's break it down further and you'll see that the each denominations have their own rules about the rituals or beliefs that is required for proper worship so you won't go to hell. Therefore every denominations counts as an individual religion because religions are incredibly pedantic. 

 

Christianity -> Anglicanism/Catholicism/Old Catholicism/Church of the East Eastern Orthodoxy/Oriental Orthodoxy/Protestantism/Mormonism.

Islam -> Sunni/Shia/Sufi/Ahmadiyya Quraniyoon

Judaism -> Conservative/ Ethiopian/Karaite/Orthodoxy/Reformist

 

17 religions that believes in hell and those are *just* the major religions. Your chances of getting the right one are stacked against you if you include the other minor religions.

 

Sidenote, only a handful place of eternal torture and punishment in an afterlife? Really? I can think of like, 20 religions that believes in hell off the top of my head.

Edited October 19, 2013 by EasleyLim

[Gray]

I doubt there is such a thing as agnostic atheist. Atheists don't believe in the existence of gods. And by the way, I think only christianity and the other similar religions say that you will go to hell if you don't become a believer.

 

So feel free to be agnostic, chances of going to hell are actually very low.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Gray