Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[EasleyLim]

I doubt there is such a thing as agnostic atheist. Atheists don't believe in the existence of gods. And by the way, I think only christianity and the other similar religions say that you will go to hell if you don't become a believer.

 

So feel free to be agnostic, chances of going to hell are actually very low.

 

Agnosticism doesn't deal with beliefs but knowledge.

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

[Steve5380]

Regardless of which God turns out to be true, as long as that particular religion has an outcome called 'hell', then Agnostics are screwed. So if there are 10 such religions out of a possible 50 religions, that means an agnostic has a 1/5 chance of screwing himself up. If you picked any of the 10 religions that believe in hell, the chances of you screwing up is less,  ie 9/50.

 

Thats 2% in your favour for free, so you cannot be indifferent between the two.

 

Slut, you definitely have an eye for advantages.  Yes, choosing a religion that has an outcome of hell (and assuming that you do nothing to earn hell in this religion) gives you the slight edge that you are saved from hell if this religion turns out to be the true one.  You gain the 2% in your example of 50 religions. 

 

If you choose Catholicism, this means that for the 2% less chance to go to hell you have to renounce to all homosexual acts forever.   Is this worth it? (!!)

 

Furthermore, if you are an agnostic in agreement with EasyLim's concept that agnosticism is about knowledge,  and you give a 50/50 chance to the existence of a God (a very god-favorable position), you still have to deal with a fundamental ignorance about what this God is.  We can easily imagine millions of different stories that can give rise to organized religions.  How many of these millions of stories would include a condemnation of homosexuality?  Judging by how morally neutral a sexual orientation really is,  could we say that one in a thousand stories would have a homophobic Apostle Paul who would make homosexual acts deserving of death?   This would put your chance of being punished by gay love at  one in two thousand.  (a 0.05% chance)

 

But in a recent update of the Balance Sheet of Religion, if you are so afraid to be hit by this 0.05% and you put on a chastity belt and devote your soul to Catholicism, the largest church with the outcome "hell", ...  you will find that the head of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis, just recently stated that "who is he to judge gays?",  after having stated earlier that a non believer (an agnostic?) who acts in good faith and lives a righteous life can also attain salvation.

 

Put all this together,  and the economics of giving up on a gay lifestyle for a fear of hell is a losing proposition.  Once you accept that you can be gay without problems,  you can be so happy that it doesn't matter what other religious lunacies you believe in, and you can renounce to agnosticism to participate in whatever cult you like. 

Edited October 19, 2013 by Steve5380

[Guest Guest]

I believe in God, the existence of a higher power, not in terms of a Christian like judgmental God, but I don't believe in religion

[slut]

Not necessary. Let's use the abrahamic religions as example. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all abrahamic in origin, so let's break it down further and you'll see that the each denominations have their own rules about the rituals or beliefs that is required for proper worship so you won't go to hell. Therefore every denominations counts as an individual religion because religions are incredibly pedantic. 

 

Christianity -> Anglicanism/Catholicism/Old Catholicism/Church of the East Eastern Orthodoxy/Oriental Orthodoxy/Protestantism/Mormonism.

Islam -> Sunni/Shia/Sufi/Ahmadiyya Quraniyoon

Judaism -> Conservative/ Ethiopian/Karaite/Orthodoxy/Reformist

 

17 religions that believes in hell and those are *just* the major religions. Your chances of getting the right one are stacked against you if you include the other minor religions.

 

Sidenote, only a handful place of eternal torture and punishment in an afterlife? Really? I can think of like, 20 religions that believes in hell off the top of my head.

 

lol ok lets give it to you and say 20 religions believe in hell out of 80 religions, then the advantage is 1.25%, which in any case is still free.

 

its like budget lines and indifference curves right, here you have two bundles that are equally 'affordable' (since technically there's no budget line because choices are free). You must therefore pick a hell-believing religion between the two (in this case, assuming that you're interested in after life outcomes) or else you'd be shortchanging yourself unnecessarily.

[slut]

Slut, you definitely have an eye for advantages.  Yes, choosing a religion that has an outcome of hell (and assuming that you do nothing to earn hell in this religion) gives you the slight edge that you are saved from hell if this religion turns out to be the true one.  You gain the 2% in your example of 50 religions. 

 

If you choose Catholicism, this means that for the 2% less chance to go to hell you have to renounce to all homosexual acts forever.   Is this worth it? (!!)

 

Furthermore, if you are an agnostic in agreement with EasyLim's concept that agnosticism is about knowledge,  and you give a 50/50 chance to the existence of a God (a very god-favorable position), you still have to deal with a fundamental ignorance about what this God is.  We can easily imagine millions of different stories that can give rise to organized religions.  How many of these millions of stories would include a condemnation of homosexuality?  Judging by how morally neutral a sexual orientation really is,  could we say that one in a thousand stories would have a homophobic Apostle Paul who would make homosexual acts deserving of death?   This would put your chance of being punished by gay love at  one in two thousand.  (a 0.05% chance)

 

But in a recent update of the Balance Sheet of Religion, if you are so afraid to be hit by this 0.05% and you put on a chastity belt and devote your soul to Catholicism, the largest church with the outcome "hell", ...  you will find that the head of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis, just recently stated that "who is he to judge gays?",  after having stated earlier that a non believer (an agnostic?) who acts in good faith and lives a righteous life can also attain salvation.

 

Put all this together,  and the economics of giving up on a gay lifestyle for a fear of hell is a losing proposition.  Once you accept that you can be gay without problems,  you can be so happy that it doesn't matter what other religious lunacies you believe in, and you can renounce to agnosticism to participate in whatever cult you like. 

 

Hi Steve,  

Firstly your argument is a variant of Easley's.

 

Secondly, another thing I noticed is that people who want to enjoy BOTH their present lives and their 'after life' would rather agree that there are an extremely high number of possibly true religions out there so as to drown out the probability that their poor present live choices may lead to eternal damnation. However, if you think about it, we can't be talking about ALL religions here right (inclusive of cults and minor religions)? Why? Cos God being God would want more followers than less. It defeats the purpose of creating humans to follow Him if he cannot/ is not going to create the conditions for this. So we must only be talking about major religions here and that leads us back to my earlier argument.

[FirsTimer]

Hello, let's get back to the world. Numbers are all but numbers until you really make that decision. Have you? Anyway that's not the point. Anyway, there are many many factors which would sway that 2% stake anyone might place in choosing (duh, I think everyone knows that). That's not the focus either, though.

The point is, if there is heaven and hell, THERE IS. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact. You have to sort of "seek the truth" although of course you cant physically see it. Who cares about the 101 religions out there (and Im not even trying to pro-Christianity here). If there is a heaven, wouldnt you want to enter? Why doubt its existence instead of finding it. And it's not even being in the state of being delusional if you try to believe in it. At the very least, love yourself enough to save yourself with this faith. Those who believe without seeing would be rewarded - that's the beauty of it. Does not even (insert anyone) believes when he or she sees it.

Blessed are those who have faith.

P.S. No arguments intended, please, and pardon me for the lack of smooth-flowing thoughts-chain.

Nights!

Edited October 19, 2013 by FirsTimer

[FirsTimer]

Anyway... I think enough of this thing about God not being accepting of homosexuals ok. I think about 96.73% of us here doesnt care and wouldnt change even if the answer is smack right in your face if you happen to be in this group. (It's stated in the Bible). So... the prickly question straight to your heart is have you accepted yourself yet? For being homosexual in the first place. (directed to those who worries about being "gay and Christian here" especially the TS) The rest dont pick an argument anymore~~ What matters is have their hearts settle down yet. Are you ok with yourself yet? Isnt it the condemnation from the world that you fear more? People are the ones laughing at you not God. And that's your worry right - would you get humiliated?

"On being gay and Christian?" The answer is nonono laid bare in the Word but people just want to hear a yes that's why the thread is going on till about near-300 comments. To those Christians here that sincerely wants to change, that's not how you reconcile the discrepancy between what you wish for and what is the truth. You dont go about deluding yourself (#self-denial) until you "feel" that the truth is not so "truthful" anymore. The Word remains as it is. You didnt change anything other than to live in lies now. You became worse off but you feel better off and that's how the devil works yea? And then you get stuck doing something not so awesome feeling totally alright with it. So... At the very least do not engage in sexual acts with another first. Do it for yourself. (Hello hello those who are troubled I hope you are seeing this. Feel free to PM me).

And this post has zero intention of enraging other readers who are not troubled and sexually active.

Peace~~~~ Nights again

Edited October 19, 2013 by FirsTimer

[Steve5380]

Hello, let's get back to the world. Numbers are all but numbers until you really make that decision. Have you? Anyway that's not the point. Anyway, there are many many factors which would sway that 2% stake anyone might place in choosing (duh, I think everyone knows that). That's not the focus either, though.

The point is, if there is heaven and hell, THERE IS. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact. You have to sort of "seek the truth" although of course you cant physically see it. Who cares about the 101 religions out there (and Im not even trying to pro-Christianity here). If there is a heaven, wouldnt you want to enter? Why doubt its existence instead of finding it. And it's not even being in the state of being delusional if you try to believe in it. At the very least, love yourself enough to save yourself with this faith. Those who believe without seeing would be rewarded - that's the beauty of it. Does not even (insert anyone) believes when he or she sees it.

Blessed are those who have faith.

P.S. No arguments intended, please, and pardon me for the lack of smooth-flowing thoughts-chain.

Nights!

 

FirsTimer, for a first timer you are well opinionated.  You wrote:

 

"The point is, if there is heaven and hell, THERE IS. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact"

 

So what?  You can as well write:

 

"The point is, if there is no heaven and hell, THERE IS NOT. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact"

 

So it's hard to know what you mean with this outburst.  If you could "find the existence of heaven" then faith is not an issue.  To "try to believe" is NOT loving yourself.  It is FOOLING yourself.  Belief is not necessarily a voluntary thing.  To embrace a religion because you don't want to miss out on a heaven it promises reflects a lack of sincerity.  If I were God, I would kick this person out of heaven because of his self-interest. It is like the prostitution of the spirit.

 

It is in the interest of organized religions that the public BELIEVES.  Therefore, the phrase "Blessed are those who believe but don't see" has a high probability of being a selling job to gullible individuals to make them believers,  thinking that there is any virtue in believing.

 

In all areas of life, a blind belief (that is to believe without seeing) is a liability, an invitation to fall victim to a deception, to an illusion.  To make ourselves believe against our reason is a disservice to ourselves, and I don't think a God would look favorably at an individual who does this.

[Steve5380]

Anyway... I think enough of this thing about God not being accepting of homosexuals ok. I think about 96.73% of us here doesnt care and wouldnt change even if the answer is smack right in your face if you happen to be in this group. (It's stated in the Bible). So... the prickly question straight to your heart is have you accepted yourself yet? For being homosexual in the first place. (directed to those who worries about being "gay and Christian here" especially the TS) The rest dont pick an argument anymore~~ What matters is have their hearts settle down yet. Are you ok with yourself yet? Isnt it the condemnation from the world that you fear more? People are the ones laughing at you not God. And that's your worry right - would you get humiliated?

"On being gay and Christian?" The answer is nonono laid bare in the Word but people just want to hear a yes that's why the thread is going on till about near-300 comments. To those Christians here that sincerely wants to change, that's not how you reconcile the discrepancy between what you wish for and what is the truth. You dont go about deluding yourself (#self-denial) until you "feel" that the truth is not so "truthful" anymore. The Word remains as it is. You didnt change anything other than to live in lies now. You became worse off but you feel better off and that's how the devil works yea? And then you get stuck doing something not so awesome feeling totally alright with it. So... At the very least do not engage in sexual acts with another first. Do it for yourself. (Hello hello those who are troubled I hope you are seeing this. Feel free to PM me).

And this post has zero intention of enraging other readers who are not troubled and sexually active.

Peace~~~~ Nights again

 

FirsTimer, don't worry about your post enraging anybody.  You are perfectly fine posting.  If I interpret correctly, you are saying:  "don't fool yourself trying to fit homosexuality into Christianity, because the answer is NO!  You cannot change the Word, to do so is fooling yourself, and it is something of the devil.

 

Hmmm...  aren't you fooling yourself that you know for sure what IS and what IS NOT?   You didn't live in biblical times, you didn't meet Jesus Christ, you don't have a direct hot line with God.  You just repeat something that has been instilled in your brain, by reading or by someone who evangelized you. There are people who are very intelligent, with a lot of knowledge and good will, who dwell on this issue and see good reasons to believe that the demonizing of homosexuality by Christian churches is a matter of INTERPRETATION of the Bible, not something solidly ingrained in Christianity.  Christ never condemned homosexuality.  Isn't it wise to give homosexuality the benefit of the doubt, and accept that Christianity may not have to be incompatible with homosexuality?

 

You also seem to imply that what in reality bothers us homosexuals is the condemnation by society, not by God.  This may be true, but it only gets better if we can have God on our side and only worry about society.

[Steve5380]

Hi Steve,  

Firstly your argument is a variant of Easley's.

 

Secondly, another thing I noticed is that people who want to enjoy BOTH their present lives and their 'after life' would rather agree that there are an extremely high number of possibly true religions out there so as to drown out the probability that their poor present live choices may lead to eternal damnation. However, if you think about it, we can't be talking about ALL religions here right (inclusive of cults and minor religions)? Why? Cos God being God would want more followers than less. It defeats the purpose of creating humans to follow Him if he cannot/ is not going to create the conditions for this. So we must only be talking about major religions here and that leads us back to my earlier argument.

 

Slut,  are you saying that major religions have a higher chance of being true because God wants more followers than less?  You justify this by the idea that it would defeat God's purpose of creating humans if he cannot get as many as possible to follow Him. 

 

Your argument is very rational, but let's think for a moment. Why would God want to have more humans following Him? If he is almighty, he could create billions of humans to follow him. It does not seem that religions are popular because they are true,  but because they promise more, or inspire more fear.

[slut]

Slut,  are you saying that major religions have a higher chance of being true because God wants more followers than less?  You justify this by the idea that it would defeat God's purpose of creating humans if he cannot get as many as possible to follow Him. 

 

Your argument is very rational, but let's think for a moment. Why would God want to have more humans following Him? If he is almighty, he could create billions of humans to follow him. It does not seem that religions are popular because they are true,  but because they promise more, or inspire more fear.

 

Actually to put it simply, if a religion isn't major right now, then we should just assume that their 'god' was unable to inspire a great following. How can that be if God is omnipotent? Surely if God wants more followers, he will presumably create conditions to inspire a greater following for his religion: eg by promising heaven for believers and hell for non-believers or ministering to the world via some means. This effectively rules out minor religions as true since their 'god' was unable to inspire great followings.

 

You can of course argue that I'm misled and maybe the 'god' of the TRUE religion does NOT want more followers, choosing only the few that are privy to his presence, knowledge and favour. But personally, I don't think this is true since God must be love and love is all-encompassing and not exclusive or selfish. 

 

Then of course you can say that maybe God after all isn't love, blah blah, then in that case, religion shouldn't matter to you or me at all.

 

So basically, God is LOVE - love wants to encompass all  - God will give everyone a good chance at knowing him and being part of his religion - He will create the conditions for this. Therefore, I'm not considering all the thousands and millions of minor religions and cults since they have all proven to be inferior in creating the said conditions for their religion to flourish. 

 

edit: You can also think of it this way: Anyone can start a new religion claiming that all believers get to go to heaven, while non-believers will go to hell. If what you say is true (ie that religions are popular BECAUSE they promise more or inspire greater fear, as opposed to being true), then any new religion that promises heaven and hell should become great with time. However, most people will bet on its failure cos a religion does not simply just flourish by laying down scary-sounding ground rules, but rather by divine inspiration. 

 

So thats another way of seeing why minor religions can't be true.

Edited October 20, 2013 by slut

[Guest Guest]

[EasleyLim]

Actually to put it simply, if a religion isn't major right now, then we should just assume that their 'god' was unable to inspire a great following. How can that be if God is omnipotent? Surely if God wants more followers, he will presumably create conditions to inspire a greater following for his religion: eg by promising heaven for believers and hell for non-believers or ministering to the world via some means. This effectively rules out minor religions as true since their 'god' was unable to inspire great followings.

 

You can of course argue that I'm misled and maybe the 'god' of the TRUE religion does NOT want more followers, choosing only the few that are privy to his presence, knowledge and favour. But personally, I don't think this is true since God must be love and love is all-encompassing and not exclusive or selfish. 

 

Then of course you can say that maybe God after all isn't love, blah blah, then in that case, religion shouldn't matter to you or me at all.

 

So basically, God is LOVE - love wants to encompass all  - God will give everyone a good chance at knowing him and being part of his religion - He will create the conditions for this. Therefore, I'm not considering all the thousands and millions of minor religions and cults since they have all proven to be inferior in creating the said conditions for their religion to flourish. 

 

edit: You can also think of it this way: Anyone can start a new religion claiming that all believers get to go to heaven, while non-believers will go to hell. If what you say is true (ie that religions are popular BECAUSE they promise more or inspire greater fear, as opposed to being true), then any new religion that promises heaven and hell should become great with time. However, most people will bet on its failure cos a religion does not simply just flourish by laying down scary-sounding ground rules, but rather by divine inspiration. 

 

So thats another way of seeing why minor religions can't be true.

 

You're claiming to have knowledge about how an omnipotent being works. How do you know? 

 

Religions that have lots of believers now are well-established, meaning to say they had more time to grow and spread compared the other "newer" ones. Just because one has a richer lore doesn't make it any more real than Lord of the Rings. Ultimately, how long the religion has been around or how little believers they have speaks nothing about the abilities of their god(s) nor the veracity of their dogma - it's still unfalsifiable. You believe that the Christian God is good but you can't know for sure. I, too, can believe that a giant omnipotent invisible purple teapot is orbiting around the moon but I can't know for sure either. Only difference between your beliefs and mine is that yours affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, whose hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time but neither religion is any more legitimate than say, scientology.  

[FirsTimer]

FirsTimer, don't worry about your post enraging anybody. You are perfectly fine posting. If I interpret correctly, you are saying: "don't fool yourself trying to fit homosexuality into Christianity, because the answer is NO! You cannot change the Word, to do so is fooling yourself, and it is something of the devil.

Hmmm... aren't you fooling yourself that you know for sure what IS and what IS NOT? You didn't live in biblical times, you didn't meet Jesus Christ, you don't have a direct hot line with God. You just repeat something that has been instilled in your brain, by reading or by someone who evangelized you. There are people who are very intelligent, with a lot of knowledge and good will, who dwell on this issue and see good reasons to believe that the demonizing of homosexuality by Christian churches is a matter of INTERPRETATION of the Bible, not something solidly ingrained in Christianity. Christ never condemned homosexuality. Isn't it wise to give homosexuality the benefit of the doubt, and accept that Christianity may not have to be incompatible with homosexuality?

You also seem to imply that what in reality bothers us homosexuals is the condemnation by society, not by God. This may be true, but it only gets better if we can have God on our side and only worry about society.

Andddd, I have made my decision by phrasing it that way. You are not a believer that's why there's room for negotiation for you. What was written is "do not engage in sexual immorality". Anyway, we arent talking about demonizing homosexuality. Wutttt

[slut]

You're claiming to have knowledge about how an omnipotent being works. How do you know? 

 

Religions that have lots of believers now are well-established, meaning to say they had more time to grow and spread compared the other "newer" ones. Just because one has a richer lore doesn't make it any more real than Lord of the Rings. Ultimately, how long the religion has been around or how little believers they have speaks nothing about the abilities of their god(s) nor the veracity of their dogma - it's still unfalsifiable. You believe that the Christian God is good but you can't know for sure. I, too, can believe that a giant omnipotent invisible purple teapot is orbiting around the moon but I can't know for sure either. Only difference between your beliefs and mine is that yours affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, whose hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time but neither religion is any more legitimate than say, scientology.  

 

I actually wasn't claiming to have knowledge about how God works, or else I wouldn't have stated the counterarguments that I did in my previous reply. I'm open to everything, but I said that if God wasn't love then whether or not his religion is true shouldnt matter to anyone (both in terms of after and present life outcomes)! If God is love however then the one of the major religions should be the real one (for the reasons stated above).

 

lastly, a giant purple teapot orbiting the moon is falsifiable in case you didnt realise

[FirsTimer]

FirsTimer, for a first timer you are well opinionated. You wrote:

"The point is, if there is heaven and hell, THERE IS. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact"

So what? You can as well write:

"The point is, if there is no heaven and hell, THERE IS NOT. The 2 million and 46 religions out there doesnt change that fact"

So it's hard to know what you mean with this outburst. If you could "find the existence of heaven" then faith is not an issue. To "try to believe" is NOT loving yourself. It is FOOLING yourself. Belief is not necessarily a voluntary thing. To embrace a religion because you don't want to miss out on a heaven it promises reflects a lack of sincerity. If I were God, I would kick this person out of heaven because of his self-interest. It is like the prostitution of the spirit.

It is in the interest of organized religions that the public BELIEVES. Therefore, the phrase "Blessed are those who believe but don't see" has a high probability of being a selling job to gullible individuals to make them believers, thinking that there is any virtue in believing.

In all areas of life, a blind belief (that is to believe without seeing) is a liability, an invitation to fall victim to a deception, to an illusion. To make ourselves believe against our reason is a disservice to ourselves, and I don't think a God would look favorably at an individual who does this.

Annnddd that's why "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." A child free of motive.. I really dont know what are you trying to do. What's your motive of posting more here?

[EasleyLim]

I actually wasn't claiming to have knowledge about how God works, or else I wouldn't have stated the counterarguments that I did in my previous reply. I'm open to everything, but I said that if God wasn't love then whether or not his religion is true shouldnt matter to anyone (both in terms of after and present life outcomes)! If God is love however then the one of the major religions should be the real one (for the reasons stated above).

 

lastly, a giant purple teapot orbiting the moon is falsifiable in case you didnt realise

 

But then how would you know that God would want more followers...? Or that God is the embodiment of love? 

 

And nope, sorry I said giant omnipotent invisible purple teapot. Not falsibiable at all.

[slut]

But then how would you know that God would want more followers...? Or that God is the embodiment of love? 

 

And nope, sorry I said giant omnipotent invisible purple teapot. Not falsibiable at all.

 

if God is Love (love being boundless and inclusive), then he would want more people to come to him, abide in him and free themselves in the Truth that is Him, and so he would create the conditions for that.

If God isn't love, then really, are we even concerned with what he has to offer? no.

 

You could use your giant omnipotent purple teapot to test this if you dont believe me. If you truly believed in that teapot and whatever it stands for, you could could start that religion and see if it flourishes. If its true and that teapot embodied love, then that religion WILL flourish. If its either false or if it didnt embody love, then either nothing would happen or it just wont be bothered enough to make anything happen.  In the end you'll either find out that the teapot isn't god or you'll find out that the teapot is 'god' and you get to spend eternity with it in its apathy. Either way, its not something you'd be concerned with.

 

(See above)

Edited October 20, 2013 by slut

[Guest Guest]

eckhart tolle : what it means to finding god

[Steve5380]

Annnddd that's why "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." A child free of motive.. I really dont know what are you trying to do. What's your motive of posting more here?

 

FirsTimer, my motive here is NOT to convince you of anything, but to fight false ideas of religion through the use of reason. 

 

Should we "receive the kingdom of God like a child"?  Should we handle our finances like a child?  Should we approach work like a child?  Should we organize our life like a child?

 

I think all these questions deserve a NO.  A child, as an innocent creature, is IGNORANT.  We should try to not be ignorant but smart and experienced.

 

Because a child is ignorant, he/she is vulnerable.  Is this why organized religions want their "kingdom of God" be received (be believed, swallowed) by children?  Would it not make more sense to sell this "kingdom of God" to an adult, intelligent, experienced, even skeptical person?  

 

What does it tell you when someone wants to sell something, not to an informed consumer, but to an innocent child?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

if God is Love (love being boundless and inclusive), then he would want more people to come to him, abide in him and free themselves in the Truth that is Him, and so he would create the conditions for that.

If God isn't love, then really, are we even concerned with what he has to offer? no.

 

You could use your giant omnipotent purple teapot to test this if you dont believe me. If you truly believed in that teapot and whatever it stands for, you could could start that religion and see if it flourishes. If its true and that teapot embodied love, then that religion WILL flourish. If its either false or if it didnt embody love, then either nothing would happen or it just wont be bothered enough to make anything happen.  In the end you'll either find out that the teapot isn't god or you'll find out that the teapot is 'god' and you get to spend eternity with it in its apathy. Either way, its not something you'd be concerned with.

 

(See above)

 

Slut, I keep wondering.  Why is "love" so important in a God?  Is love anything more than an emotion of living creatures?  Aren't there already so many different forms of love that make it difficult to exactly define what the simple word "love" means?

 

I don't know.  I cannot second-guess a God.  But I can imagine something close:  I am a creator of some things, let's say some mechanical puppets. Will I "love" my puppets?  Perhaps.  Will I expect "love" from my puppets?  No, this doesn't make any sense. 

 

Let's go back to God.  So a God creates us.  Does he love us?  Perhaps.  But it's difficult to imagine, because we were made full of imperfections and our conditions of life are far from what "love" would provide to us.  Our life is not lovely. 

 

And now the biggest absurdity:  will this God want his creatures to come to him, "free themselves in the Truth that is Him"?   If this God would want this, then it is totally in His power to make himself VISIBLE, AWARE to us  instead of HIDING totally out of reach.

 

Other parts of nature are visible, offer awareness to us.  We can see the sun, the moon, the stars.  The principal reason God is not recognized by people like agnostics and atheists is that IT DOESN'T MAKE HIMSELF RECOGNIZABLE.   So God should blame himself if he is not recognized. 

[slut]

Slut, I keep wondering.  Why is "love" so important in a God?  Is love anything more than an emotion of living creatures?  Aren't there already so many different forms of love that make it difficult to exactly define what the simple word "love" means?

 

I don't know.  I cannot second-guess a God.  But I can imagine something close:  I am a creator of some things, let's say some mechanical puppets. Will I "love" my puppets?  Perhaps.  Will I expect "love" from my puppets?  No, this doesn't make any sense. 

 

Let's go back to God.  So a God creates us.  Does he love us?  Perhaps.  But it's difficult to imagine, because we were made full of imperfections and our conditions of life are far from what "love" would provide to us.  Our life is not lovely. 

 

And now the biggest absurdity:  will this God want his creatures to come to him, "free themselves in the Truth that is Him"?   If this God would want this, then it is totally in His power to make himself VISIBLE, AWARE to us  instead of HIDING totally out of reach.

 

Other parts of nature are visible, offer awareness to us.  We can see the sun, the moon, the stars.  The principal reason God is not recognized by people like agnostics and atheists is that IT DOESN'T MAKE HIMSELF RECOGNIZABLE.   So God should blame himself if he is not recognized. 

 

ok,

1: You can't expect love from your 'puppets' if they aren't capable of love. Humans are capable of love, so God isn't wrong to expect love from us.

2: Love doesn't guarantee that your life is going to be perfect here on earth. Otherwise, why shouldn't God just create humans in heaven in the first place? What's the point of placing humans here on earth if all that God wants for us is a perfect life? Obviously this means that there are other things that are required of us here first before we head elsewhere.

3: If he basically just appeared to everyone here on earth, then we would believe in him by sight and not by faith. 

[Steve5380]

ok,

1: You can't expect love from your 'puppets' if they aren't capable of love. Humans are capable of love, so God isn't wrong to expect love from us.

2: Love doesn't guarantee that your life is going to be perfect here on earth. Otherwise, why shouldn't God just create humans in heaven in the first place? What's the point of placing humans here on earth if all that God wants for us is a perfect life? Obviously this means that there are other things that are required of us here first before we head elsewhere.

3: If he basically just appeared to everyone here on earth, then we would believe in him by sight and not by faith. 

 

1: If we are capable of love, it is because your God put this feature in us.  If this feature doesn't work, and we don't love God, it is God's fault for making a defective creation that doesn't work as desired (His desire that we love Him).  

2: Yes, yes!  Why didn't God create us humans in heaven in the first place?

3: What would be the problem if we perceive God instead of having to "believe" in Him?  What is the big deal with believing?  If believing is so important, why not make the sun, the moon, the stars invisible and let us "believe" in them?

[slut]

1: If we are capable of love, it is because your God put this feature in us.  If this feature doesn't work, and we don't love God, it is God's fault for making a defective creation that doesn't work as desired (His desire that we love Him).  

2: Yes, yes!  Why didn't God create us humans in heaven in the first place?

3: What would be the problem if we perceive God instead of having to "believe" in Him?  What is the big deal with believing?  If believing is so important, why not make the sun, the moon, the stars invisible and let us "believe" in them?

 

1. Because on top of love, God also gave us the free will to choose what we 'love'. If you don't love God, or anything for that matter, then you made that choice and so you're responsible for it.

2. Probably because we have things to learn here first before we are allowed to proceed.

3. Because faith by sight is completely worthless. If you see a cat, you'll believe in its existence; if you see a pile of poop, you'll also believe its there. God shall not be relegated to that.

[Steve5380]

1. Because on top of love, God also gave us the free will to choose what we 'love'. If you don't love God, or anything for that matter, then you made that choice and so you're responsible for it.

2. Probably because we have things to learn here first before we are allowed to proceed.

3. Because faith by sight is completely worthless. If you see a cat, you'll believe in its existence; if you see a pile of poop, you'll also believe its there. God shall not be relegated to that.

 

Slut,  now I see that you are completely indoctrinated by Christian religious ideology.

 

1- You are a believer in "free will".  Free will is the excuse of organized Christian religions to let your God off the hook for our actions.  If I create something, and the something misbehaves,  I have some responsibility for the actions of my creation.  But in the case of God and humans,  this "free will" is the disclaimer.  Imagine a manufacturer of computers, whose products don't work, claiming that it is the computer's fault because they have "free will".

 

3- You resort to the argument of organized religion that faith is A VIRTUE.  For the churches,  faith is ESSENTIAL because they don't have any proof of what they preach.  Therefore, they make faith something that should be praised.  But in reality,  faith is merely a necessity of daily life when there is insufficient information.  Blind faith, which is the one about religion,  rather than a virtue it is a liability.  It makes us vulnerable to charlatans who deceive and lie,  I can speak mostly for Catholicism, which is the religion I was educated in.  But all the Christian Churches LIE.  Their lie is to misrepresent as a fact what is merely a belief.  For example, they say:  God IS this-and-that,  instead of "we BELIEVE that God is this-and-that".

 

I am sorry to see that you may have fallen pray of the tricks of organized religion.

[Guest Guest]

ok,

1: You can't expect love from your 'puppets' if they aren't capable of love. Humans are capable of love, so God isn't wrong to expect love from us.

2: Love doesn't guarantee that your life is going to be perfect here on earth. Otherwise, why shouldn't God just create humans in heaven in the first place? What's the point of placing humans here on earth if all that God wants for us is a perfect life? Obviously this means that there are other things that are required of us here first before we head elsewhere.

3: If he basically just appeared to everyone here on earth, then we would believe in him by sight and not by faith. 

other things that are required of us here first before we head elsewhere? Totally does not make sense at all

 

we would believe in him by sight and not by faith? Seeing is believing.

 

This is a very severe case of indoctrination and brain washing. No logic at all.

[slut]

Slut,  now I see that you are completely indoctrinated by Christian religious ideology.

 

1- You are a believer in "free will".  Free will is the excuse of organized Christian religions to let your God off the hook for our actions.  If I create something, and the something misbehaves,  I have some responsibility for the actions of my creation.  But in the case of God and humans,  this "free will" is the disclaimer.  Imagine a manufacturer of computers, whose products don't work, claiming that it is the computer's fault because they have "free will".

 

3- You resort to the argument of organized religion that faith is A VIRTUE.  For the churches,  faith is ESSENTIAL because they don't have any proof of what they preach.  Therefore, they make faith something that should be praised.  But in reality,  faith is merely a necessity of daily life when there is insufficient information.  Blind faith, which is the one about religion,  rather than a virtue it is a liability.  It makes us vulnerable to charlatans who deceive and lie,  I can speak mostly for Catholicism, which is the religion I was educated in.  But all the Christian Churches LIE.  Their lie is to misrepresent as a fact what is merely a belief.  For example, they say:  God IS this-and-that,  instead of "we BELIEVE that God is this-and-that".

 

I am sorry to see that you may have fallen pray of the tricks of organized religion.

 

1. Free will MUST exist to verify true love. It's not a flaw of the system but it is the system. 

 

A very crude example is this: Imagine you bought a dog and you had the option to either a) programme it to love you or b) let it decide to love you. If you chose option A, you will in time begin to realise that none of this 'love' is true and instead just a result of the way you programmed it. If you chose option B, then you have to live with the idea that it might love you or hate you. However, should it love you then you would necessarily know that its true.

 

You're basically trying to argue for the idea that the imposing of free will really isnt free will and that it merely exists 'as an excuse' to absolve God of his supposed responsibilities for your choices. However, for the above reason, you should understand that the system has to play out in this manner. You only have two options to choose between and the choice you make equals the responsibilities that you have to bear. 

 

2. Unfortunately, I really cannot argue more about why Faith should be more important to you. But all I can say is that this is again how the system works. This entire place is a test - of how much you love God and how much you believe in him, amongst other things. If you pass the test, you get the reward. If you dont, then you bear the consequence. What the consequences are I'm seriously not sure since there are many interpretations of this.

 

Lastly, God also offers his help to you if you need/want it so this test really isn't designed to ensnare or overwhelm us like you somehow believe.

Edited October 21, 2013 by slut

[Marineboy]

Our time on earth usually wont exceed 100years.

But this time we are judged and can be condemned to eternity...

 

There is no loving GOD here....unless he loves to punish his creations....its better not to be created no?

[slut]

Our time on earth usually wont exceed 100years.

But this time we are judged and can be condemned to eternity...

 

There is no loving GOD here....unless he loves to punish his creations....its better not to be created no?

 

Like I said, I am not entirely sure what the consequences are since there are at least a few interpretations of this - it may be for eternity, it may not; I don't know. But you do have about 50-70 years to get this test right, which is an acceptable amount of time.

[FirsTimer]

FirsTimer, my motive here is NOT to convince you of anything, but to fight false ideas of religion through the use of reason. 

 

Should we "receive the kingdom of God like a child"?  Should we handle our finances like a child?  Should we approach work like a child?  Should we organize our life like a child?

 

I think all these questions deserve a NO.  A child, as an innocent creature, is IGNORANT.  We should try to not be ignorant but smart and experienced.

 

Because a child is ignorant, he/she is vulnerable.  Is this why organized religions want their "kingdom of God" be received (be believed, swallowed) by children?  Would it not make more sense to sell this "kingdom of God" to an adult, intelligent, experienced, even skeptical person?  

 

What does it tell you when someone wants to sell something, not to an informed consumer, but to an innocent child?

 

there're no such quotes as "handles your finances as an ignorant child". So your questions are not applicable for He does not put it that way. So there's nothing false other than the hypothetical scenarios that you bring out to subtle cause others to be convinced when they are actually invalid paiseh.. and if you put ignorance into the quote, would people still follow it? "Enter the Kingdom like a fool". Makes a lot of sense eh? So of course we would choose to use the description of the child, in this case, to be "pure" rather than "ignorant". Out of the many interpretations, we should find out what the author truly has to say. I understand the style of your argument but let's move beyond that mere showcase of pride and use knowledge accurately and appropriately.

 

Anddddd... we havent been talking about how to help end the misery in the TS. See how purposeless our discussion is. Totally out of thread point and saying whatever we wanna say. This IS a mere display of ego. Like wah you know a lot I know a lot. wah wah wah and the TS is not even here anymore. That's why I questioned about our motives.. Let's not waste time in mindless ranting anymore =D

Edited October 21, 2013 by FirsTimer

[EasleyLim]

Our time on earth usually wont exceed 100years.

But this time we are judged and can be condemned to eternity...

There is no loving GOD here....unless he loves to punish his creations....its better not to be created no?

I will always love you and forgive you... unless you dont believe in me which in that case, you can burn in hell.

It's like parents making you learn piano when you were younger then get freaked out and tell you to pick an engineering job or risk getting cut off financially when you say you want to be a musician.

If you dont want your child to grow up to be a musician then dont give them music lessons in the first place and certainly don't threaten them with punishment for their choice.

[Steve5380]

I will always love you and forgive you... unless you dont believe in me which in that case, you can burn in hell.

It's like parents making you learn piano when you were younger then get freaked out and tell you to pick an engineering job or risk getting cut off financially when you say you want to be a musician.

If you dont want your child to grow up to be a musician then dont give them music lessons in the first place and certainly don't threaten them with punishment for their choice.

 

This is exactly like the organized religions put it.  An infinitely just, compassionate God.  But dare not to believe in Him,  and he sends you straight to hell.

 

Why would a God care at all if we believe in Him, love Him?   Hasn't this God ever learned about unselfish love, when we love someone regardless of how the object of or love reacts?  I had that once with a pet which I loved.  I never got a feeling of reciprocal love, but the pet was fed and cared for.  If God loves us, isn't this sufficient to send us to heaven no matter how much we "adore" him or kiss his butt?

[Guest Adult]

lol you guys = whiny kids

want to do wrong dont want to get punished

[Steve5380]

lol you guys = whiny kids

want to do wrong dont want to get punished

 

You don't sound like Adult.

[Guest Guest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtbI5YH34-0

 

Help! I am very frightened after watching this video   . All of us here will be sent to hell to be damned.   

[Steve5380]

Help! I am very frightened after watching this video   . All of us here will be sent to hell to be damned.   

 

The video is a monologue.  Any person can say what he wants in a monologue. But a dialog is different.  This guy may not realize the many ways his statements can be proven false.  He has a somewhat bewildered look,  something in his eyes,  but otherwise he could be a normal guy.   He could become an interesting specimen to study.  How can a normal-looking individual have such twisted, lunatic beliefs? 

 

I think we are living in good times when we can totally ignore this guy and his nonsense.  There are people like him in positions of power, but little by little they are being exposed. 

Edited October 23, 2013 by Steve5380

[Steve5380]

The first minute of the video says that homosexuality is a sin.  Pastor Khong would certainly love to hear this man's words.

At the second minute of the video, the speaker asserts that God wants to redeem us and loves homosexuals.  So that is how the speaker interprets the Bible!  Is he aware of other interpretations?

Then he says that gays are "lost in their homosexuality".  Really?  How come I do not feel lost?

And he emphasises that homosexuality is linked to being fatherless and being abused by an uncle or some other men.  Nonsense again.  He must be speaking from only his own experience.

In the last minute of the video, he says "A man's seed is not meant to eat crap and die ... it is the most filthy way for the sperm to go.  It's disgusting, even dangerous, causes diseases."   He is referring to anal sex of course.  Is he aware that straights also practise anal sex?  Is he saying that straight sex can never cause diseases?  Sigh!

 

He is so full of it!  and he doesn't realize it.  A person so blinded by false ideology cannot be trusted in any way.  He surely thinks that his slanders give him some credit with his God.  Who knows how long he can believe that before reality falls hard on him.

[Guest Guest]

not only am i not lost, but my world has illuminated after i cease to self deny & pretend & suppress, and recognise my sexuality

 

i find this ang mo still very sister. Look at the finger, look at the neck wrap, looks very hiao

[Guest Guest]

"Welcome to TruthQuest’s exciting Vacation Bible School program, TrueRassic Park! This exciting VBS program takes children on a fun adventure with dinosaurs, learning about the wonder of God’s creation and His divine power.

First, to set the stage for the week’s lessons, children are taught about how REAL science works, why evolutionary theories do NOT comply with scientific procedures, and the difference between scientific facts, theories, and faith, which is defined in Hebrews 11:1. A lesson in faith follows, showing children how our belief in the Truth of God’s Word, by faith, is well-founded.

Children are then guided through the six days of creation from Genesis chapter one, pointing out the flaws with evolutionary theories and emphasizing the reliability of God’s Word.

Then, they’ll learn about dinosaurs, which were created along with humans on the sixth day of creation, and where dinosaurs are described in the Bible, again shooting holes in evolutionary theories.

Next, children learn about the great flood, which wiped out the dinosaurs that hadn’t been on the ark, and how the sin of mankind is ultimately responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs, along with all death, pain and sorrow."

http://moriahbpc.org/home/resources/events/event/vacation-bible-school/

This is what they teach children in church in singapore!

[Blacque]

"Welcome to TruthQuest’s exciting Vacation Bible School program, TrueRassic Park! This exciting VBS program takes children on a fun adventure with dinosaurs, learning about the wonder of God’s creation and His divine power.

First, to set the stage for the week’s lessons, children are taught about how REAL science works, why evolutionary theories do NOT comply with scientific procedures, and the difference between scientific facts, theories, and faith, which is defined in Hebrews 11:1. A lesson in faith follows, showing children how our belief in the Truth of God’s Word, by faith, is well-founded.

Children are then guided through the six days of creation from Genesis chapter one, pointing out the flaws with evolutionary theories and emphasizing the reliability of God’s Word.

Then, they’ll learn about dinosaurs, which were created along with humans on the sixth day of creation, and where dinosaurs are described in the Bible, again shooting holes in evolutionary theories.

Next, children learn about the great flood, which wiped out the dinosaurs that hadn’t been on the ark, and how the sin of mankind is ultimately responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs, along with all death, pain and sorrow."

http://moriahbpc.org/home/resources/events/event/vacation-bible-school/

This is what they teach children in church in singapore!

 

That's why it's not registered under MOE. 

[Steve5380]

"Welcome to TruthQuest’s exciting Vacation Bible School program, TrueRassic Park! This exciting VBS program takes children on a fun adventure with dinosaurs, learning about the wonder of God’s creation and His divine power.

 

Guest,  those responsible for teaching that to innocent children should be criminally prosecuted for deceptive indoctrination.

 

But this is not possible.  Like they cannot prove any of their lunacies,  we cannot prove categorically that they are wrong.  We cannot prove that there are no creatures with antennas on their heads on Mars.   All we can conclude is that those theories don't make logical sense.

 

Children should not be given religious and other controversial indoctrination.  If they evolved or were created, if there are Gods floating around, this should not be their concerns.  They should be free to concentrate on their starting lives, interested in learning math, science (the one that is not controversial), learn discipline and critical thinking.   Once they are adults and have all that preparation, then they should read the Bible, hear the televangelists.  Then they will realize that the world is full of deceivers that preach and indoctrinate nonsense.   

 

Their preparation and the realization that so much is deception, misrepresentation,  will help them fully accept homosexuality if this is their orientation,  and they can even disregard the abominable bashing of gays alleged to be in the Bible  and embrace Christianity as a positive philosophy.

[EasleyLim]

Guest,  those responsible for teaching that to innocent children should be criminally prosecuted for deceptive indoctrination.

 

But this is not possible.  Like they cannot prove any of their lunacies,  we cannot prove categorically that they are wrong.  We cannot prove that there are no creatures with antennas on their heads on Mars.   All we can conclude is that those theories don't make logical sense.

 

Children should not be given religious and other controversial indoctrination.  If they evolved or were created, if there are Gods floating around, this should not be their concerns.  They should be free to concentrate on their starting lives, interested in learning math, science (the one that is not controversial), learn discipline and critical thinking.   Once they are adults and have all that preparation, then they should read the Bible, hear the televangelists.  Then they will realize that the world is full of deceivers that preach and indoctrinate nonsense.   

 

Their preparation and the realization that so much is deception, misrepresentation,  will help them fully accept homosexuality if this is their orientation,  and they can even disregard the abominable bashing of gays alleged to be in the Bible  and embrace Christianity as a positive philosophy.

 

Actually we CAN prove that creationism, as a form of science, is bullshit. 

 

 

[Steve5380]

Actually we CAN prove that creationism, as a form of science, is bullshit. 

 

 

After watching your video,  I think these creationists should not be criminally prosecuted.  

Instead, they should be given a chance to recant the abominations they preach to so many innocent children.  If they don't recant, then a big pyre should be built with coal that is, say, 300 million years old.  Then the creationists are tied to the pyre and doused with petroleum that is, say, 200 million years old,  and a match is lighted over the creationists.  If it is true that hydrocarbons formed in the coal and petroleum over the passage of geological time, then the whole thing will go up in flames and the souls of the creationists will be sent back to the hell where they belong.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Steve5380

[EasleyLim]

After watching your video,  I think these creationists should not be criminally prosecuted.  

Instead, they should be given a chance to recant the abominations they preach to so many innocent children.  If they don't recant, then a big pyre should be built with coal that is, say, 300 million years old.  Then the creationists are tied to the pyre and doused with petroleum that is, say, 200 million years old,  and a match is lighted over the creationists.  If it is true that geological times allowed the formation of hydrocarbons in the coal and petroleum, then the whole thing will go up in flames and the souls of the creationists will be sent back to the hell where they belong.

 

I wouldn't go that far...

[Steve5380]

I wouldn't go that far...

 

You mean, the 200 million years old gasoline is too far back?  How about some natural gas that goes back only 10 million years?

[Guest leon]

Many of their practices are not practical in our modern world. Some of their opinions not convincing in this generation. The original messages are different from what is preached today. Any happy wise man knows one need not believe in an external force to go to heavens. If u commit crimes, u tell the police n judge to let u off because they r loving? Then there will b chaos in the country and universes! U create your own destiny although some external forces may exist. Your outcomes arise from your thoughts which are shaped by ignorance, knowledge, experiences, attitudes, personality. Thoughts lead to actions then outcome (positive, negative). U will not go to hell if u don't take part in a religion. Don't be scared.

[Guest Guest]

The most ridiculous and self contradicting belief of most Christians is they can pick and choose what they believe from the bible.

If they believe the bible is the true word of God, why they don't follow everything it says??

Who grant them the authority and wisdom to decide what applies and what doesn't?

[Guest Guest]

not only pick and choose, they can interpret in any manner that they fancy. Someone earlier on already illustration the case about abraham.

[EasleyLim]

You mean, the 200 million years old gasoline is too far back?  How about some natural gas that goes back only 10 million years?

 

Yeah, how bout we just not kill people for their beliefs? 

[Steve5380]

Yeah, how bout we just not kill people for their beliefs? 

 

All right,  all right,   I might reconsider burning the creationists to death.