Discussion On Being Gay & Christian (Compiled)

[Guest Passingthru]

According to you, all religions lead to the same God.

 

According to the Gospel of John 14:6, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

 

You have contradicted Jesus. And you say that you are a follower of Jesus.

-  No, I have not.  I said that the God I worship is everyone's God/Creator.  People are free to share or reject my belief in Jesus and His salvation but He remains the God of all notwithstanding/inspite of the belief or religion.

 

In your first post, you said,

"4.  Atheism, environmentalism, political correctness, darwinism, LBGT along with a whole host of other "isms" and groups have in themselves become religions in various states/levels of organisation complete with beliefs, dogma, idols, leaders, literature...etc.  If you think you're a free thinker or without a religion, better think twice."

 

All "isms" have become religions.

All religions lead to the same God.

Therefore, all "isms" lead to the same God.

 

So, why must free thinkers and those without a religion think twice?

-  You fail to understand the meaning of "religion" used in this context.  People can be religious in ways they are not aware of.  Set ways, rituals, being dogmatic and inflexible without a manual are some examples of "religious" behaviour.  Therefore, think twice.

 

Who should I believe is right? You or Jesus?

-  Jesus.

 

Are you sure or not? You sabo other people, you also go to hell.

-  I wasn't sabo-ing and yes, we will all be judged.

 

[sliceboy]

Sorry, I don't understand your explanation on how all religions lead to the same god. Please try to explain again.

 

I think your statement about "ism" is ignorant. How are the "ism" groups just as dogmatic as religion? You have shown little understanding of scientific community and social/political movements. Have you worked in those areas? You say that you don't believe in organized religions and yet you posted such URLs, one to speak about creationism on your behalf and the other to justify the Bible as the infallible word of god.

 

How arrogant of you to tell non-believers to think twice while you refuse to look into the origins of the Bible.

 

 

You have contradicted Jesus. And you say that you are a follower of Jesus.

-  No, I have not.  I said that the God I worship is everyone's God/Creator.  People are free to share or reject my belief in Jesus and His salvation but He remains the God of all notwithstanding/inspite of the belief or religion.

 

...

 

"4.  Atheism, environmentalism, political correctness, darwinism, LBGT along with a whole host of other "isms" and groups have in themselves become religions in various states/levels of organisation complete with beliefs, dogma, idols, leaders, literature...etc.  If you think you're a free thinker or without a religion, better think twice."

 

All "isms" have become religions.

All religions lead to the same God.

Therefore, all "isms" lead to the same God.

 

So, why must free thinkers and those without a religion think twice?

-  You fail to understand the meaning of "religion" used in this context.  People can be religious in ways they are not aware of.  Set ways, rituals, being dogmatic and inflexible without a manual are some examples of "religious" behaviour.  Therefore, think twice.

[Guest Passingthru]

 

Can I say, instead, that the onus is on the atheist camp to disprove absolutely that there is no God?

Oops, sorry, I meant ............prove absolutely that there is no God. ( or for that matter to disprove absolutely that there is a God )

[Guest Passingthru]

Sorry, I don't understand your explanation on how all religions lead to the same god. Please try to explain again.

-  It's simple.  The worship of a deity, deities, supernatural force...etc  is an act of recognition that there is a God/Creator/someone or something bigger than ourselves.  This recognition is also a form of fellowship/bonding/reaching out which takes on different styles and methods and therefore become different religions with differing philisophies but it is actually directed to the same God, ie, the supreme being and creator of the universe.

 

I think your statement about "ism" is ignorant. How are the "ism" groups just as dogmatic as religion? You have shown little understanding of scientific community and social/political movements. Have you worked in those areas? You say that you don't believe in organized religions and yet you posted such URLs, one to speak about creationism on your behalf and the other to justify the Bible as the infallible word of god.

-  If my statements are ignorant, then your cross examinations throughout this thread are out of line.  Beg to differ?  So do I.  See how relative things are?  In any case, are you sure your questionings are done in the spirit of enquiry and exchange or are you driven by something deeper?  Did I somehow summon the zealot in you?  If so, what are you zealous about and can that not be construed as your "religion" ? 

URLs ..etc are a source of reference and refering to them doesn't make me belong to those sources.  I could also quote from atheist sources but does that make me an atheist?

 

How arrogant of you to tell non-believers to think twice while you refuse to look into the origins of the Bible.

-  How arrogant of you to conclude that I've not looked into the origins of the Bible.  I may not fully understand its mysteries but that doesn't mean I'm not trying.  Ditto the POVs of atheists and other religions.  Arrogance is as arrogance does.  I'm quite certain I'm not the one with the battle-axe or the torch barrer of outrage.

 

[Steve5380]

. 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Steve5380

[Guest Guest]

Could it be that there is higher power that holds everything together which is not perceivable by the consciousness of most human beings?

It is like fish even though live in water, they might not know the existence of water. Because to them that is everything they are aware of.

Like ants are living in a different level of consciousness. They might see them being stepped on as a 'natural disaster ' or an 'act of god' which they can offer no explanation.

[sliceboy]

Evidence show a creature that stepped out of water.

 

Should a gay Christian step out of Christianity?

 

 

Could it be that there is higher power that holds everything together which is not perceivable by the consciousness of most human beings?

It is like fish even though live in water, they might not know the existence of water. Because to them that is everything they are aware of.

Like ants are living in a different level of consciousness. They might see them being stepped on as a 'natural disaster ' or an 'act of god' which they can offer no explanation.

Edited November 10, 2013 by sliceboy

[Steve5380]

Evidence show a creature that stepped out of water.

 

Should a gay person step out of Christianity?

 

sliceboy,  who knows if a gay person should step out of Christianity.  But I think that it can be helpful, and very RATIONAL. I did, and thanks to being gay.  

 

Let's look at a specific religion taught by some Church like a theorem that is to be proven.  The dogmas are postulates.  The interpretation of dogmas by the theologians are the hypothesis.  One postulate in the Old Testament is that homosexuality is an aberration (it is a postulate because nobody has been able to justify why it should be an aberration, except that it is "the will of God").  Then in the New Testament the Apostle Paul writes his condemnations of homosexuals, including his assumption that their acts deserve death.  Let's say this is not a dogma but the result of Paul's feelings (such miserable homophobe!), so this is an hypothesis.  If the theorem has even just one wrong hypothesis, it is not correct. And if in addition even just one premise is wrong,  the theorem is FALSE.

 

Thanks to being gay, I am able to have the certainty of something that is is irrevocably true:  homosexuality is not an aberration, and homosexual sex does not deserve death.  So this leads me to the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic religion, the one I was sold in a complete package as a child,  is FALSE.  

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2013 by Steve5380

[sliceboy]

Steve5380 - I agree, plus all your other posts. We should not wear Christian God glasses to see the world. But for those who insist, maybe bifocals are needed.

 

I think a book, course or seminar is needed for this topic.

 

 

sliceboy,  who knows if a gay person should step out of Christianity.  But I think that it can be helpful, and very RATIONAL. I did, and thanks to being gay.  

 

Let's look at a specific religion taught by some Church like a theorem that is to be proven.  The dogmas are postulates.  The interpretation of dogmas by the theologians are the hypothesis.  One postulate in the Old Testament is that homosexuality is an aberration (it is a postulate because nobody has been able to justify why it should be an aberration, except that it is "the will of God").  Then in the New Testament the Apostle Paul writes his condemnations of homosexuals, including his assumption that their acts deserve death.  Let's say this is not a dogma but the result of Paul's feelings (such miserable homophobe!), so this is an hypothesis.  If the theorem has even just one wrong hypothesis, it is not correct. And if in addition even just one premise is wrong,  the theorem is FALSE.

 

Thanks to being gay, I am able to have the certainty of something that is is irrevocably true:  homosexuality is not an aberration, and homosexual sex does not deserve death.  So this leads me to the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic religion, the one I was sold in a complete package as a child,  is FALSE.  

 

 

 

 

[sliceboy]

I'm not sure if your current interpretation of God is acceptable to Jesus. I'm also not sure if believers of other religions can reach this same God without Jesus.

 

It's OK. Thanks for your explanation of your posts.

 

Do you have any ideas on how to test for god or supernatural?

 

Have you heard of the Amazing Randi $1 Million Paranormal Challenge?

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand your explanation on how all religions lead to the same god. Please try to explain again.

-  It's simple.  The worship of a deity, deities, supernatural force...etc  is an act of recognition that there is a God/Creator/someone or something bigger than ourselves.  This recognition is also a form of fellowship/bonding/reaching out which takes on different styles and methods and therefore become different religions with differing philisophies but it is actually directed to the same God, ie, the supreme being and creator of the universe.

 

I think your statement about "ism" is ignorant. How are the "ism" groups just as dogmatic as religion? You have shown little understanding of scientific community and social/political movements. Have you worked in those areas? You say that you don't believe in organized religions and yet you posted such URLs, one to speak about creationism on your behalf and the other to justify the Bible as the infallible word of god.

-  If my statements are ignorant, then your cross examinations throughout this thread are out of line.  Beg to differ?  So do I.  See how relative things are?  In any case, are you sure your questionings are done in the spirit of enquiry and exchange or are you driven by something deeper?  Did I somehow summon the zealot in you?  If so, what are you zealous about and can that not be construed as your "religion" ? 
URLs ..etc are a source of reference and refering to them doesn't make me belong to those sources.  I could also quote from atheist sources but does that make me an atheist?
 

How arrogant of you to tell non-believers to think twice while you refuse to look into the origins of the Bible.

-  How arrogant of you to conclude that I've not looked into the origins of the Bible.  I may not fully understand its mysteries but that doesn't mean I'm not trying.  Ditto the POVs of atheists and other religions.  Arrogance is as arrogance does.  I'm quite certain I'm not the one with the battle-axe or the torch barrer of outrage.
 

 

[Guest Passingthru]

I'm not sure if your current interpretation of God is acceptable to Jesus. I'm also not sure if believers of other religions can reach this same God without Jesus.

 

It's OK. Thanks for your explanation of your posts.

 

Do you have any ideas on how to test for god or supernatural?

 

Have you heard of the Amazing Randi $1 Million Paranormal Challenge?

Lots of things I do are unacceptable to Jesus.  That's why I need Him.  Followers of other religions can reach this same God through Jesus, if they want to.  Choice and free will.

 

You're welcome.

No ideas whatsoever.  It's faith based.

Yes, I've heard of Randi and I will fail the challenge because I can never provide anything concrete. 

[Guest Guest]

Lots of things I do are unacceptable to Jesus.  That's why I need Him. 

 

??? This doesn't make sense at all. If u need Jesus, then u shouldn't do things that are unacceptable to him. The reason why u need him is because u done things that are unacceptable to him? The causal and effect relationship totally makes no sense at all. 

 

They can argue and justify things according to their whims and fancies without any regard to reasoning and logic. Can vomit blood.

 

I am very fortunate i am not a worshipper of the so called creator.

[Gray]

.....continued.....

Meanwhile, I don't know if such reports like http://nstarzone.com/faithhealing.html  can be corroborated.

 

God ignores millions of people dying

-  The lack of divine intervention does not disprove His existence.  If I knew the whys and hows, I'd already be Divine.

 

My faith and personal experiences may not be shared by everyone and indeed they shouldn't be adopted without "counting the cost" as Christ warned.  It is, as I've always maintained, my personal "journey" which from time to time (such as in this thread) I express.  It is not an effort to disprove the atheist, condemn the agnostic or prove with absolute certainty the Divine.  What everyone has in common is that all will be revealed at death's door.  Until then, the "journey" continues.

 

It doesn't disprove his existence. But what it does is show that the bible is a book full of lies and false promises. But anyway, as I have said, everyone will believe in something they want to believe in so actually we will be going around and around in circles here without actually accomplishing anything worthwhile. But thanks for sharing your opinion with me.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Gray

[Marineboy]

Thanks to being gay, I am able to have the certainty of something that is is irrevocably true:  homosexuality is not an aberration, and homosexual sex does not deserve death.  So this leads me to the inevitable conclusion that the Catholic religion, the one I was sold in a complete package as a child,  is FALSE.  

 

 

Steve5380

Being Gay paved the way for me to step out as well.

Brought up in the Catholic faith I see myself as fighting satan from getting me away from God.

 

I prayed with all my strength to cure me from this sickness and be like most normal persons.

I did my part by getting a gfren and hope she can help change me too.

 

Many months later...it seemed like I was speaking to a wall....no answers no nothing.

I certainly am not evil or anything close to it..its just me true feelings of just liking my own gender.

 

With the help of forums and learning more about our community I decided to step out and wow I can see it all so clearly now. I have been deluded all along.

There must be some guardian angel somewhere I suppose and I am thankful that I did find my other half as well.

Life is meant to be celebrated not being fearful of damnation for not following the holy book if there was one in the first place

 

We try to live a good life together and hopefully able to make this world a better place is our own capacity.

Help others see the truth and free themselvest of this ancient myth. So many Gods from the ancient world have perished. More will each day.

 

Certainly being Gay made me think a lot more and seek more answers as well.

If things went well for you all your life...there will be no need to probe much...there is no need to rock the boat is there?

 

To summarise the religion that says we are evil..the work of the devil...is grossly flawed indeed.

 

Nonetheless I wish everyone to seek more answers for yourself and make that informed judgement on all matters.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Passingthru]

Lots of things I do are unacceptable to Jesus.  That's why I need Him. 

 

??? This doesn't make sense at all. If u need Jesus, then u shouldn't do things that are unacceptable to him. The reason why u need him is because u done things that are unacceptable to him? The causal and effect relationship totally makes no sense at all. 

 

They can argue and justify things according to their whims and fancies without any regard to reasoning and logic. Can vomit blood.

 

I am very fortunate i am not a worshipper of the so called creator.

 

1.  We are not perfect and therefore do many things which are/may be displeasing to God.

2.  Through Jesus we find forgiveness and redemption.  Hence, the need for Him.

3.  This, however, does not mean a license for us to abandon morality and self control.  The pre-requisite to redemption is realisation and sincere remorse.

 

Our fallen nature/state causes us to displease God and the effect is separation from Him. This effect, however, is mediated through the intervening sacrifice by Jesus on the cross.

 

This, in essence, is the Gospel in it's simplest form.

A lack of understanding and/or not wishing to understand would make most things seem unreasonable and illogical.  Add to it, baggage, issues, anger or hidden agendas, and it gets even more cloudy.  I, personally, have no problems seeing the reasons and logic behind the POVs of atheists, agnostics, various other religions, animists...etc.  I don't have to accept their POVs but I do see the direction they're coming from and take an interest in what they bring to the table. The main reason I can do that is because I follow the 2nd greatest commandment laid out by Jesus - "Love your neighbour as yourself."

[sliceboy]

Having read all your posts on this thread, I suspect that you have been reading too much USA Christian right-wing websites. Your description of "ism"/dogma, the creationist URL, you strangely mentioned "the moon landing is a hoax" conspiracy theory, and then this nstarzone.com, a right-wing political propaganda website - please read its info. Nowadays, this group of people is also known as the Tea Party.

 

These Christians are anti-evolution, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-Obama. They believe in many conspiracy theories. They think that Obama is the anti-Christ who stole the US Presidency.

 

Oh dear, I don't think you want to be associated with this group of people.

 

.....continued.....

Meanwhile, I don't know if such reports like http://nstarzone.com/faithhealing.html  can be corroborated.

 

God ignores millions of people dying

-  The lack of divine intervention does not disprove His existence.  If I knew the whys and hows, I'd already be Divine.

 

My faith and personal experiences may not be shared by everyone and indeed they shouldn't be adopted without "counting the cost" as Christ warned.  It is, as I've always maintained, my personal "journey" which from time to time (such as in this thread) I express.  It is not an effort to disprove the atheist, condemn the agnostic or prove with absolute certainty the Divine.  What everyone has in common is that all will be revealed at death's door.  Until then, the "journey" continues.

[Guest Passingthru]

 

I fail to see the logic. 

Here's the way I see it.  If this was a thread discussing atheism or other religions and I entered with my opinions on Christianity, then the onus would be on me to prove my point since I would be deemed the "accuser"/challenger.  This perspective is based on the platform of the discussion, not on individual opinion posts in it which are merely debate/mutual exchange.

 

The trolls you mentioned are a clear cut case of aggression/accusation.  They are actually making charges and their agenda is not to discuss paedophilia and what is construed as such.  They have much to prove and the onus is definitely on them.

[Guest Passingthru]

Oh dear, I don't think you want to be associated with this group of people.

As I said, obtaining reference material from whatever source does not mean I'm from that source.  There are atheists/agnostics studying religions and in their course of study would definitely rely on material from religious sources but that does not link them to any religion and inclination nor are they about to adopt one.

[sliceboy]

Currently, your ideas about god is too simple. You use the word "faith" as in unknown and "unknown" cannot prove anything. You need something more to turn ideas into hypothesis. Perhaps you should study philosophy and you can research and publish.

 

Have you read about Spinoza's philosophy?

 

In today's world, you are welcome to prove your ideas. Even a 15-year-old can do it.

Jack Andraka, the Teen Prodigy of Pancreatic Cancer

 

 

Lots of things I do are unacceptable to Jesus.  That's why I need Him.  Followers of other religions can reach this same God through Jesus, if they want to.  Choice and free will.

 

You're welcome.

No ideas whatsoever.  It's faith based.

Yes, I've heard of Randi and I will fail the challenge because I can never provide anything concrete. 

[Guest Guest]

 

.

 

 

 

 

As you have said, it is a leap of faith.  No need to go through reasoning.  No need to explain why God allows scores & scores of worshippers being trampled to death by their own overcrowded congregations in Mecca and various parts of India every year.  No need to question why God allows his ardent worshippers to die in this tragic manner.  Just ignore this ludicrous irony and blame it on human error for lacking crowd controllers.  As for why God allows typhoons to wreak havoc and cause deaths every year.  Maybe the Filipino Christians / Muslim pilgrims are not devout enough?  Or maybe God enjoys creating people and make them die tragically or suffer pains?  We don’t know at all because it is all God’s "scheme of things".  When good things happen to us, we thank God.  We thank him for the good food and affluent lifestyle.  BUT when misfortunes strike, don’t blame God.  Don’t blame him for the typhoons, earthquakes, famines etc. for he is forever “all-loving” and “all perfect”, as declared in the holy books.  And since we do not understand God’s plans, no point discussing natural disasters or human tragedies, right?  LOL!

 

 

 

That is exactly why i find their things totally makes no sense at all. And they will tell u "god must have a reason for causing all these to happen, we need not know the reason", so continue believing, god is still great, and praise the lord for all these calamities. And sometimes they will tell u, oh god is creating all these to test our resilience, and god wants to see how we handle adversities. Totally non sensical. And they will use all sorts of absurb explanations to convince u that god is still great afterall. This is blind faith and idolising.

[sliceboy]

According to the wikipedia URL about Georges Lemaître, note that he was against mixing science with religion. Do you understand why Georges was against it?

 

"By 1951, Pope Pius XII declared that Lemaître's theory provided a scientific validation for Creationism and Catholicism. However, Lemaître resented the Pope's proclamation. When Lemaître and Daniel O'Connell, the Pope's science advisor, tried to persuade the Pope not to mention Creationism publicly anymore, the Pope agreed. He convinced the Pope to stop making proclamations about cosmology. While a devoted Roman Catholic, he was against mixing science with religion."

 

As we prove and learn from science, believers are forced to change their idea of god to suit their holy books. What is the "God of the gaps" argument?

 

 

 

Ok good. Then let me ask you something. Say you lived 500 years ago, in an age where astronauts had not landed on the moon yet. Could you say for certain then that the moon is not made of blue cheese? Did scientific research that led to humans going to the moon and educate all of us on the moon tell u this? Or did your bible tell you this? If you are so ready to rely on scientific facts and evidence when it comes to the moon, why do you reject it when it contradicts your religious teachings? Which is more likely to be wrong, Science or Bible? Why do you take all the technology we have today thanks to human research and applications of scientific principles for granted as common sense, then throw that common sense away and suspect science of being faulty when it comes to evolution and other things that contradict your bible?

-  How is the Big Bang or other simillar spontaneity considered common sense?  Wouldn't they be closer to magic and if so, therefore not scientific?

 

Religion encourages ignorance. Science sheds light on the nonsense that the bible perpetuates! Only simple minds immediately attribute the unexplainable to the supernatural and the divine. If everyone thought like this, do you think that we would know that the moon is not made out of blue cheese today? If things did get turn into gold (highly unlikely), there would be thousands of scientists researching the phenomena and working to reproduce the process, not purely deem it to be a miracle and that's it. Many "miracles" of the past has been debunked by human research and knowledge over the years.

- Religion as in dogma and ritual encourage ignorance.  On the contrary, a search for one's Creator and having a relationship (ie, the "journey") with Him, IMO, is the beginning of wisdom.  This wisdom encourages investigation and study, not a closed mind. Ironically, the Big Bang was proposed by someone "religious":  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by sliceboy

[Steve5380]

As you have said, it is a leap of faith.  No need to go through reasoning.  No need to explain why God allows scores & scores of worshippers being trampled to death by their own overcrowded congregations in Mecca and various parts of India every year.  No need to question why God allows his ardent worshippers to die in this tragic manner.  Just ignore this ludicrous irony and blame it on human error for lacking crowd controllers.  As for why God allows typhoons to wreak havoc and cause deaths every year.  Maybe the Filipino Christians / Muslim pilgrims are not devout enough?  Or maybe God enjoys creating people and make them die tragically or suffer pains?  We don’t know at all because it is all God’s "scheme of things".  When good things happen to us, we thank God.  We thank him for the good food and affluent lifestyle.  BUT when misfortunes strike, don’t blame God.  Don’t blame him for the typhoons, earthquakes, famines etc. for he is forever “all-loving” and “all perfect”, as declared in the holy books.  And since we do not understand God’s plans, no point discussing natural disasters or human tragedies, right?  LOL!

 

Religions don't have a solid foundation.  They start with a story and then speculate about the story.  They are eager to fill the void of our ignorance, and this appeals to those who cannot tolerate being ignorant.  Yet there are rational people who believe that it is better to be ignorant than to 'know' false information.  Great thinkers are perfectly satisfied with the idea that we know very little. There is a good example in the person of Richard Feynman, one of the most outstanding physicists of the last century. There are many good videos about him on youtube.  Here is one of them:

Edited November 13, 2013 by Steve5380

[Guest Passingthru]

According to the wikipedia URL about Georges Lemaître, note that he was against mixing science with religion. Do you understand why Georges was against it?

 

"By 1951, Pope Pius XII declared that Lemaître's theory provided a scientific validation for Creationism and Catholicism. However, Lemaître resented the Pope's proclamation. When Lemaître and Daniel O'Connell, the Pope's science advisor, tried to persuade the Pope not to mention Creationism publicly anymore, the Pope agreed. He convinced the Pope to stop making proclamations about cosmology. While a devoted Roman Catholic, he was against mixing science with religion."

 

As we prove and learn from science, believers are forced to change their idea of god to suit their holy books. What is the "God of the gaps" argument?

The premise that the God camp is selective is the problem.  A truly open minded believer in God takes in the proven, unproven as well as the unprovable but he attributes them all to God. There is no contradiction when ones sees that it all begins and will end (when and if it does) with Him.  Hence, there are no gaps.  Gaps only occur when science is seen as the enemy.  All discoveries merely ascertain what the God camp already accepts through faith.

 

The problem here is religion as in dogmatism as well as ritualism and political institutions under the guise of godliness like the Catholic church, for eg.  Science and a scientific mind can never (and should not) comply with such circumstances.  Remove those circumstances and we find that science is simply the brilliance of what the human mind achieves - the mind which the God camp attributes to the image/likeness of God.  The Galileo situation is a perfect example of how science became a threat instead of proof of God's majesty and design, simply because of churchy beliefs and the politics of the day, both of which perverted healthy, pro-God discoveries.

The same principle applies to the separation of Church and State.  If a Church governance is premised upon a foundation of choice and free will which are God's original gift, then there is no need, in theory, of any separation.  Or, the Church may even advocate separation because the things of God are spirit and therefore above matters of State. Either way, there is no 'gap'.  But churchy or religious beliefs and attitudes are often dogmatic and thus unable to do any fine tuning.  Hence, aberrations and 'gaps'.

PS:  the last paragraph is merely for illustration.  Please don't focus and expand on it.  The thread is already off tangent enough.

[Guest Passingthru]

 

What would you say to the fanatics?  Here's what I would say:

a)  No comments.  Please stop harassing them.  We are not God.  Who are you to judge?  Amen.

-  "You are breaking the law and creating civil disobedience."

 

b)  Please separate religion from sexual orientation.  Peace be with you.

- ( Won''t say that because my opinions are not theirs.  They have a right to theirs but they don't have a right to carry them out the way described. )

 

c)  Homosexuality is not a sin.  If God loves everyone, then he won’t mind his sexual orientation.

- ( Won't say this either because I'm still searching. )

 

d)  Yes, homosexuality is a sin but gays cannot help it.  They are born with this sin.

- ( Won't say this either because the situation doesn't call for a lecture. )

 

e)  Whoever wrote the Bible had twisted the notion of homosexuality into a sin.  Christianity & homosexuality can co-exist and be compatible.

- ( as per 'c" )

 

f)  The Bible did not say homosexuality is a sin but it is some of those who claim to be Christians that twist and turn ambiguous quotations to suit their homophobic agenda.

- ( as per 'c' and also too accusative.  Interpretation is relative.  I can also be accused of twisting and turning to suit my agenda. )

 

g)  Others / mixture of the above.  Do specify

[sliceboy]

Today, we have this movement called humanism. However, this is not what you want - you want to believe in god; not just any god but the monotheistic Christian God (with choice & free will) as defined by you and without any proof. You also say not believing in Jesus is a sin.

 

Will you agree to merging Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, and other gods into a united ideal? I'm pretty sure you and others will NOT agree to a common definition of god. So how?

 

We are then back to square one. You have your definition of god which is unproven. Other people also have their unproven definitions of god. Ever since we evolved into being, we humans have been "talking/claiming cock" endlessly but don't want to bear the burden of proof and expect others to disprove. How are we supposed to accomplish anything based on unproven things? We have already tried this no-need-to-prove method and we didn't advance as far as bearing-the-burden-of-proof method.

 

This world is not biased against religious people. It's biased against people who don't want to bear the burden of proof and expect others to disprove their endless claims.

 

This is not off thread.

 

Should gay Christians believe the unproven anti-gay claims in the bible or understand homosexuality based on scientific method?

 

Maybe you should consider becoming the Masters & Johnson of gay sex research. There are many volunteers here. Don't worry, doing research in gay sex is not considered "practising".     

 

 

The premise that the God camp is selective is the problem.  A truly open minded believer in God takes in the proven, unproven as well as the unprovable but he attributes them all to God. There is no contradiction when ones sees that it all begins and will end (when and if it does) with Him.  Hence, there are no gaps.  Gaps only occur when science is seen as the enemy.  All discoveries merely ascertain what the God camp already accepts through faith.

 

The problem here is religion as in dogmatism as well as ritualism and political institutions under the guise of godliness like the Catholic church, for eg.  Science and a scientific mind can never (and should not) comply with such circumstances.  Remove those circumstances and we find that science is simply the brilliance of what the human mind achieves - the mind which the God camp attributes to the image/likeness of God.  The Galileo situation is a perfect example of how science became a threat instead of proof of God's majesty and design, simply because of churchy beliefs and the politics of the day, both of which perverted healthy, pro-God discoveries.

The same principle applies to the separation of Church and State.  If a Church governance is premised upon a foundation of choice and free will which are God's original gift, then there is no need, in theory, of any separation.  Or, the Church may even advocate separation because the things of God are spirit and therefore above matters of State. Either way, there is no 'gap'.  But churchy or religious beliefs and attitudes are often dogmatic and thus unable to do any fine tuning.  Hence, aberrations and 'gaps'.

PS:  the last paragraph is merely for illustration.  Please don't focus and expand on it.  The thread is already off tangent enough.

Edited November 14, 2013 by sliceboy

[robin]

During Jesus' time, salvation message is shared simply through the word of mouth.  There is no such things as the bible.

 

It was only years later that man took different letters/books written by human beings, put them together and we 'box' God up and said that is 'the bible' and that is THE VERY WORD of God.  And since the existence of the bible, has it really build or divide the the people of God? What is the root cause of why churches are divided into denominations and are  not able to truely come together as a body of Christ?  What is the root cause of why we have Christians againsts homosexual Christians? My question is that if something is of God, why instead of unifying the people of God, it is bringing division and conflict within the church? 

 

What is the pre-requisite for savalation?  Whoever believes in Christ who died for our sins shall gain eternal life.

What is Jesus' commandment? Love God & love one another.  Period.

 

To me, all the rest are man-made & even rubbish!  This is my stand as a Christian and this is how I live my Christian life.

[Steve5380]

 

 

What would you say to the fanatics?  Here's what I would say:

a)  No comments.  Please stop harassing them.  We are not God.  Who are you to judge?  Amen.

-  "You are breaking the law and creating civil disobedience."

 

>>> OH MY GOD!  "civil disobedience"...   (you should donate your brain for scientific research)

 

b)  Please separate religion from sexual orientation.  Peace be with you.

- ( Won''t say that because my opinions are not theirs.  They have a right to theirs but they don't have a right to carry them out the way described. )

 

>>>  So you believe sexual orientation is part of religion?   How about our digestive system?

 

c)  Homosexuality is not a sin.  If God loves everyone, then he won’t mind his sexual orientation.

- ( Won't say this either because I'm still searching. )

 

>>> OK.  Better make those people wait while you search.

 

d)  Yes, homosexuality is a sin but gays cannot help it.  They are born with this sin.

- ( Won't say this either because the situation doesn't call for a lecture. )

 

>>>  That's right!  The situation calls for a beating instead,  where the gays should get the laws of God beaten into them.

 

e)  Whoever wrote the Bible had twisted the notion of homosexuality into a sin.  Christianity & homosexuality can co-exist and be compatible.

- ( as per 'c" )

 

>>>  Again, you can search on your smartphone while the religious crowd waits.

 

f)  The Bible did not say homosexuality is a sin but it is some of those who claim to be Christians that twist and turn ambiguous quotations to suit their homophobic agenda.

- ( as per 'c' and also too accusative.  Interpretation is relative.  I can also be accused of twisting and turning to suit my agenda. )

 

>>> Like in 'c',  let them wait while you twist and turn your smartphone in search for an answer.  Don't forget to call an ambulance for the two gays.

 

g)  Others / mixture of the above.  Do specify

 

[Steve5380]

During Jesus' time, salvation message is shared simply through the word of mouth.  There is no such things as the bible.

 

It was only years later that man took different letters/books written by human beings, put them together and we 'box' God up and said that is 'the bible' and that is THE VERY WORD of God.  And since the existence of the bible, has it really build or divide the the people of God? What is the root cause of why churches are divided into denominations and are  not able to truely come together as a body of Christ?  What is the root cause of why we have Christians againsts homosexual Christians? My question is that if something is of God, why instead of unifying the people of God, it is bringing division and conflict within the church? 

 

What is the pre-requisite for savalation?  Whoever believes in Christ who died for our sins shall gain eternal life.

What is Jesus' commandment? Love God & love one another.  Period.

 

To me, all the rest are man-made & even rubbish!  This is my stand as a Christian and this is how I live my Christian life.

Remember that in the days of Jesus they had the Old Testament:  the Jewish Torah  plus some other stuff,  in written form and passing verbally through generations. Jesus was a Jew, and Judaism was his religion.  People later created "Christianity" and the Jews split.  (maybe they couldn't take all the "love")  Other churches sprung up as people rebelled against the corruption of the Catholic Church.  

 

I assume that your questions are rhetorical.  Your questions for root causes you answer in the last question "if something is of God".  Why would you pick something out of the mess you call "man-made & even rubbish"?  Why not accept that all is man-made?

 

You can be a Christian by following Christ's philosophy as described in the gospels (without regard of their authenticity) and not worry about the divinity of Christ or any other character. 

Edited November 13, 2013 by Steve5380

[Guest Passingthru]

 

 

 

What would you say to the fanatics?  Here's what I would say:

a)  No comments.  Please stop harassing them.  We are not God.  Who are you to judge?  Amen.

-  "You are breaking the law and creating civil disobedience."

 

>>> OH MY GOD!  "civil disobedience"...   (you should donate your brain for scientific research)

 

b)  Please separate religion from sexual orientation.  Peace be with you.

- ( Won''t say that because my opinions are not theirs.  They have a right to theirs but they don't have a right to carry them out the way described. )

 

>>>  So you believe sexual orientation is part of religion?   How about our digestive system?

 

c)  Homosexuality is not a sin.  If God loves everyone, then he won’t mind his sexual orientation.

- ( Won't say this either because I'm still searching. )

 

>>> OK.  Better make those people wait while you search.

 

d)  Yes, homosexuality is a sin but gays cannot help it.  They are born with this sin.

- ( Won't say this either because the situation doesn't call for a lecture. )

 

>>>  That's right!  The situation calls for a beating instead,  where the gays should get the laws of God beaten into them.

 

e)  Whoever wrote the Bible had twisted the notion of homosexuality into a sin.  Christianity & homosexuality can co-exist and be compatible.

- ( as per 'c" )

 

>>>  Again, you can search on your smartphone while the religious crowd waits.

 

f)  The Bible did not say homosexuality is a sin but it is some of those who claim to be Christians that twist and turn ambiguous quotations to suit their homophobic agenda.

- ( as per 'c' and also too accusative.  Interpretation is relative.  I can also be accused of twisting and turning to suit my agenda. )

 

>>> Like in 'c',  let them wait while you twist and turn your smartphone in search for an answer.  Don't forget to call an ambulance for the two gays.

 

g)  Others / mixture of the above.  Do specify

 

Perhaps you've gotten things mixed up or you can't see the situation for what it is. In either case, do take up your own suggestion and have your head researched/checked. Are you really sure you're at peace? Doesn't feel like it from the looks of your various responses throughout the thread. I could be mistaken, though.

 

To summarise:  The hypothetical situation was created to test how I would play both the Christian and gay cards. I chose not to play them but instead separated philosophy from what the situation was really all about - civil disobedience by a group of people who was about to commit a crime or may already have, in terms of harrassment. Herein lies Nightingale's beef with me - my supposed choice of the path of least resistance. I see it differently - I simply seek not to clutter matters. Some call this "simplistic", I call it "simple". It's always relative.

[Guest Passingthru]

Yes, I should have used the term civil unrest/disorder instead.

[Steve5380]

 

 

 

 

What would you say to the fanatics?  Here's what I would say:

a)  No comments.  Please stop harassing them.  We are not God.  Who are you to judge?  Amen.

-  "You are breaking the law and creating civil disobedience."

 

>>> OH MY GOD!  "civil disobedience"...   (you should donate your brain for scientific research)

 

b)  Please separate religion from sexual orientation.  Peace be with you.

- ( Won''t say that because my opinions are not theirs.  They have a right to theirs but they don't have a right to carry them out the way described. )

 

>>>  So you believe sexual orientation is part of religion?   How about our digestive system?

 

c)  Homosexuality is not a sin.  If God loves everyone, then he won’t mind his sexual orientation.

- ( Won't say this either because I'm still searching. )

 

>>> OK.  Better make those people wait while you search.

 

d)  Yes, homosexuality is a sin but gays cannot help it.  They are born with this sin.

- ( Won't say this either because the situation doesn't call for a lecture. )

 

>>>  That's right!  The situation calls for a beating instead,  where the gays should get the laws of God beaten into them.

 

e)  Whoever wrote the Bible had twisted the notion of homosexuality into a sin.  Christianity & homosexuality can co-exist and be compatible.

- ( as per 'c" )

 

>>>  Again, you can search on your smartphone while the religious crowd waits.

 

f)  The Bible did not say homosexuality is a sin but it is some of those who claim to be Christians that twist and turn ambiguous quotations to suit their homophobic agenda.

- ( as per 'c' and also too accusative.  Interpretation is relative.  I can also be accused of twisting and turning to suit my agenda. )

 

>>> Like in 'c',  let them wait while you twist and turn your smartphone in search for an answer.  Don't forget to call an ambulance for the two gays.

 

g)  Others / mixture of the above.  Do specify

 

Perhaps you've gotten things mixed up or you can't see the situation for what it is. In either case, do take up your own suggestion and have your head researched/checked. Are you really sure you're at peace? Doesn't feel like it from the looks of your various responses throughout the thread. I could be mistaken, though.

 

To summarise:  The hypothetical situation was created to test how I would play both the Christian and gay cards. I chose not to play them but instead separated philosophy from what the situation was really all about - civil disobedience by a group of people who was about to commit a crime or may already have, in terms of harrassment. Herein lies Nightingale's beef with me - my supposed choice of the path of least resistance. I see it differently - I simply seek not to clutter matters. Some call this "simplistic", I call it "simple". It's always relative.

 

 

My mistake.  I misinterpreted  your response  "You are breaking the law and creating civil disobedience."  thinking that you would tell this to the two gays who walked openly holding hands in a public place,  having the law 377A in the books.    I apologize for doubting of your mental state in assigning to you such an abysmal way of thinking.   

[Steve5380]

Once you leap into religion, it is difficult to leap out.  Very few are like me or my Philosophy lecturer friend who can leap out.  Religion has a self defence mechanism by which the followers shut all their eyes & ears to evidences that contradict their faith.  Some of them turn to religion because of their kiasu mentality.  If there is no God, then I have nothing to lose.  But if there is, I am salvaged.  It is like buying lottery or Toto tickets.  If I strike, I will be rich.  If not, never mind.  My parents often bought the tickets too, knowing very well the odds were against them.  They almost but never struck.  I refuse to buy any, knowing very well the chances are next to zero.  And when a Christian chants “Buy lah, buy lah”, I always siam.  LOL.

 

So it is not the Christians or any other religious group who are waiting.  They have already found their own answer.  It is the gays who are waiting – waiting for 377A to be abolished.  Not for now but waiting for more neighbouring countries to do it first.  The “wait and see policy” of our govt is the only option gays have in Sg, or so it seems.

 

If I see you walking on the street I would not imagine that you have leaped out of religion.  But you did.  So did I.  We are many, many people who in today's world have the freedom to think critically.  When we do this,  we have to conclude that religions are not worth our beliefs.  What remains after this is the question:  if religions are not true, then what is the truth?  It takes a little longer to be satisfied with the realization that the Truth is beyond our knowledge and even more, our understanding.  Then we can finally put the whole issue to rest.

 

The Sg govt. has this "wait and see" policy regarding 377A.  But this does not have to be the attitude of Sg gays.  It happened everywhere that the gays started the demands first, and much, much later the governments acceded.

 

If you see a group of people being unfairly treated,  like children, women, you probably would not wait to support them until "more neighboring countries do it first"   So why is it different with gays?   Is it because of shame?   This would prove that the indoctrination of gays with shame is a very effective way of keeping them subdued. 

 

Like it is positive when people successfully liberate themselves from the nonsense of religious beliefs,  it is equally positive when we gays liberate ourselves from the nonsense of shame.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Steve5380

[Guest Guest]

"The Riverside Church

January 19, 1936

My dear Dr. Einstein,

We have brought up the question: Do scientists pray? in our Sunday school class. It began by asking whether we could believe in both science and religion. We are writing to scientists and other important men, to try and have our own question answered.

We will feel greatly honored if you will answer our question: Do scientists pray, and what do they pray for?

We are in the sixth grade, Miss Ellis’s class.

Respectfully yours,

Phyllis"

------------------------

January 24, 1936

Dear Phyllis,

I will attempt to reply to your question as simply as I can. Here is my answer:

Scientists believe that every occurrence, including the affairs of human beings, is due to the laws of nature. Therefore a scientist cannot be inclined to believe that the course of events can be influenced by prayer, that is, by a supernaturally manifested wish.

However, we must concede that our actual knowledge of these forces is imperfect, so that in the end the belief in the existence of a final, ultimate spirit rests on a kind of faith. Such belief remains widespread even with the current achievements in science.

But also, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that some spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe, one that is vastly superior to that of man. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is surely quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.

With cordial greetings,

your A. Einstein

--------

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2013/07/11/do-scientists-pray-einstein-letter-science-religion/

[curious_boi]

No where is it mentioned in the bible that Jesus condemned homosexuals. The 10 commandments didnt forbid homosexuality either.

[Marineboy]

The bible is written by many men. Its not the word of GOD(its not certain there is a God anyway. Many Gods of ancient times have perished). So it does not matter what the bible says.

How so many can believe in something they know so little ...rolls eyes.

[Gray]

No where is it mentioned in the bible that Jesus condemned homosexuals. The 10 commandments didnt forbid homosexuality either.

 

Don't kid yourself please. How you not even know your own bible as a christian?

 

http://christianity.about.com/od/Bible-Verses/a/Bible-Verses-Homosexuality.htm

 

http://christianity.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=christianity&cdn=religion&tm=63&f=10&tt=2&bt=3&bts=33&zu=http%3A//www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

Edited November 15, 2013 by Gray

[Guest Guest]

Jesus teaching is found in the New testament.

What the link contain are from the old testament.

[Gray]

Jesus teaching is found in the New testament.

What the link contain are from the old testament.

 

Romans 1:18-32? Corinthians 6:9-11? Timothy 1:9-10? These are Old Testament?

 

And is there a difference between jesus and god? Does the new testament somehow make the old testament less true?

[sum1outhere_03]

Romans 1:18-32? Corinthians 6:9-11? Timothy 1:9-10? These are Old Testament?

 

And is there a difference between jesus and god? Does the new testament somehow make the old testament less true?

 

Brother, I want to encourage you to read Joyce Meyer's "God's not Mad At Me".

 

The beauty of the New Testament is that God has punished all our sins on the cross. That is the beauty of His grace, as you mentioned in 2 Tim 1:9:10 which brought beautifully out the purpose of Jesus Christ:

 

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, ¹⁰ but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

 

God indeed is angry at sin, but Jesus had bore it all on the cross. No?

[Steve5380]

For those of us who are feeling confident of ourselves yet want to remain discreet, it is not so much a feeling of shame.  Rather, it is the embarrassment we want to avoid.  We shall have lots of answering to do to relatives, friends, colleagues, bosses etc. once we are exposed, plus the aftermath we have to face.  We dare not hold hands while strolling in public for fear of being accused of “polluting the moral fibre”, “corrupting the minds of little children”, “not doing as the Romans do” etc. while we jealously & helplessly gaze at straight couples engaging in PDA.  We simply want to keep a low profile to avoid embarrassment either to ourselves or to our families.

 

Scenario 1

Gays start to demand rights.  Govt accedes.

Reality check – as explained above.  So Scenario 1 won’t happen.

 

Scenario 2

Gays start to demand rights.  Homophobic straights will push back.  One of them wrote, “How terrible it Is! These 2 sodomites force others to accept their abomination acts and even went to the supreme court to condone their heinous sin.”  (Source: http://sg.news.yahoo.com/photos/couple-kenneth-chee-left-and-gary-lim-right-file-an-appeal-after-their-application-to-repeal-photo-472579810.html)

 

The result is conflict.  Govt steps in and says “Hush!  Back to status quo.”

 

Scenario 3 – Status quo.  Yes, the indoctrination of gays with (NEGATIVITY) is (HAS BEEN) a very effective way of keeping them subdued (THROUGHOUT THE MILLENNIA).  The bright side is that things are beginning to look up.  We must be patient.  Neil Armstrong, who landed on the moon in 1969 said “A small step on the moon but a leap for mankind.”  President Obama and ex-PM of Australia Rudd have spoken in defence of homosexuality, something unheard & unspoken of by any leaders of the past century.  The 21^st century should herald better days to come for GLBTs.

 

 

I agree that asking people to come out of the closet is too much.  But being supportive of the gay cause requires doing that?  I can participate in so many conversations in person and on the Internet where I even heatedly support equal rights for gays, gay marriage and laws to protect gays against discrimination,  without being seen as gay.  The same as I support equal rights for Blacks, women, without being neither Black nor a woman.  A support never on the basis that "I am gay and I deserve this-or-that", but on basic principles of fairness, equality.  

 

In the case of your  Scenario 2, if homophobic straights start saying or writing ugly things, can one reply back, write back attacking homophobia as an undesirable trait like racism,  and making the case for equality?  And if they try to attack back suggesting that one is gay, can one laugh in their faces and accuse them of trying to intimidate their critics by calling them 'gay' ? 

[Steve5380]

Brother, I want to encourage you to read Joyce Meyer's "God's not Mad At Me".

 

The beauty of the New Testament is that God has punished all our sins on the cross. That is the beauty of His grace, as you mentioned in 2 Tim 1:9:10 which brought beautifully out the purpose of Jesus Christ:

 

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, ¹⁰ but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

 

God indeed is angry at sin, but Jesus had bore it all on the cross. No?

Brother sum1outhere,  have you ever reflected on what you wrote?

 

How can a God be ANGRY?  If you are God and create some minuscule creatures,  and they act according to the way you created them,  would this make you ANGRY?

 

How can someone dying on a cross "punish all our sins"?   Where is JUSTICE if our sins are punished by someone dying on a cross?

 

How could Christ give us this grace before the beginning of time, if he lived and died only 2000 years ago?

 

How could Christ give us this grace before the beginning of time, when humanity only lost that grace AFTER the beginning of time when Adam, Eve ate the apple?

 

How could Christ destroy death when we still get born and die like before Christ ever existed? 

 

What proof you have of immortality?   How can you fall for all this nonsense?

[sum1outhere_03]

If you are God and create some minuscule creatures,  and they act according to the way you created them,  would this make you ANGRY?

But God is not angry with us after we have received His gift of salvation through Jesus!

Also in Romans 6:23 - 26(NLT):

 

²³ For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. ²⁴ Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that WE are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. ²⁵ For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, ²⁶ for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

 

Of course, v27-28 says,

 

²⁷ Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. ²⁸ So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

 

 

Yes, I do believe that we all are still "sinners" to a certain extend, and because of our sins God is definitely angry at our behaviour.

But if God is still angry at sin and at us, then Paul would have stopped at Romans 1 and 2. No?

Edited November 16, 2013 by sum1outhere_03

[sum1outhere_03]

1.  I am confused.  At first you say God was angry at our sin.  Then you mentioned Paul.  So is God still angry or not?

 

2.  Logic, logic please.  I no longer buy the argument that one man (Jesus) can substitute for all our sins.  If that gang of rapists in New Delhi who had beaten their victim to death should deserve death, and if Jesus were alive today, would you not be angry if Jesus were to say, "Come, let me die for their sins.  Leave these rapists alone.  Let them go scot-free."?

 

3.  Different cultures view the nature of man differently.  You may believe that babies are born with sin.  But babies have done nothing wrong!  Logic please!  Confucius prefer to view humans as having the inclination to do good. (Ren zhi chu, xing ben shan).  So are all non-Christian views incorrect?

 

1. God is not angry with us. In fact, God is for us (Rom 8:31).

    

2. I'd rather believe the Word of God by faith. I understand those pains that people suffer because of sin. But actually, this is one of the cases that you have mentioned in the current times. But how about the bible, when David committed adultery? When Saul (Paul) was persecuting the church? Even when Judas betrayed Jesus, But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” (Matt 26:47) For the 3 examples I given, God called David a man after God's own heart, and Paul wrote most of the letters in the New Testament. These 3 were murderers in fact (David killed the woman's husband he slept with, Saul (Paul) killed many Christians, Judas [who unfortunately hanged hmself] killed Jesus indirectly for his betrayal).

   Most of the time, the bible isn't logical... it wasn't logical why God even sent His Son. There are just too many illogical things that happened in the bible. But God is looking for faith. And whatever happens to the rapists, those who anyhow transmits HIV to one another, I can only say that God is the ultimate judge. Vengeance is His. 

    

3. Again, we just have to look into the bible. Romans 5:19a says, For as by one man’s (Adam's) disobedience many were made sinners, and Romans 3:23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The bible says we inherit the sinful nature because of Adam's sin. But the good news is, 2nd part of Romans 5:19, so also by one Man’s (Jesus) obedience many will be made righteous.

PS: I hope I do not make anyone feel I am holier than thou cos I quote scriptures, but this is what I have known and what I have learned throughout the years as a believer. I believe that God so loves you that He gave His only begotten Son, and whoever believes in Him shall not perish...

 

God loves you today, receive that! <3

Edited November 16, 2013 by sum1outhere_03

[Guest Guest]

It is understandable that most of us choose to remain discreet for various reasons.

But the most effective way to change the majority perception on lgbt is to hv as many of us to come out as possible. Because homophobia most of the time is due to ignorance.

Most of them hv not met a single gay in their life. What they know about gay r from the news when someone get caught, in the mainstream media which paint the negative side.

If they get to know more gay, who r as upright and can be as respectful as other ppl in the eye of the society, their perception will change. The society needs more gay role models. The impact is probably more compared to public figure coming out, cos it is someone they know personally.

First, what we can do is to be confident with ourselves. If we cant accept ourselves and see ourselves with less respect, how can we expect other ppl to accept who we r. Most of the time we fear because we r scared of losing their opinions on us. When we realize we r who we r, we could be the best we could even though we r not straight. Our confidence in ourselves could change their view on being gay still equally capable of being a good person.

We don't need to announce it, just don't be afraid of being out. Let nature take its course.

The local cases you quoted above happened precisely because there are too few of us here courageous enough to speak up. The reasons r probably due to what you mentioned -" conservative society, no point speaking up, wait for other countries to change "

Those ppl in other countries might even hv gone through where we r today, or even worst. The difference is they don't wait for other to take action. What happened if everyone is waiting for someone else take action. I doubt it will make so much progress today.

Majority doesn't always equal to superiority even in a democratic world where majority wins. Thats the purpose of having a constitution and human rights law to ensure equality. It is also make no sense to let the majority to dictate on what the minority can or cannot do, cos in the first place, it doesnt concern the majority. It is like in a country of majority Christian to dictate what ppl from other faith should or shouldnt do in their religion.

[sliceboy]

Do you think the anti-gay verses are also illogical? How should gay Christians handle those verses?

 

I'd rather believe the Word of God by faith. I understand those pains that people suffer because of sin. But actually, this is one of the cases that you have mentioned in the current times. But how about the bible, when David committed adultery? When Saul (Paul) was persecuting the church? Even when Judas betrayed Jesus, But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” (Matt 26:47) For the 3 examples I given, God called David a man after God's own heart, and Paul wrote most of the letters in the New Testament. These 3 were murderers in fact (David killed the woman's husband he slept with, Saul (Paul) killed many Christians, Judas [who unfortunately hanged hmself] killed Jesus indirectly for his betrayal).

Most of the time, the bible isn't logical... it wasn't logical why God even sent His Son. There are just too many illogical things that happened in the bible. But God is looking for faith. And whatever happens to the rapists, those who anyhow transmits HIV to one another, I can only say that God is the ultimate judge. Vengeance is His. 

God loves you today, receive that! <3

 

Edited November 16, 2013 by sliceboy

[Steve5380]

 

1. God is not angry with us. In fact, God is for us (Rom 8:31).

    

2. I'd rather believe the Word of God by faith. I understand those pains that people suffer because of sin. But actually, this is one of the cases that you have mentioned in the current times. But how about the bible, when David committed adultery? When Saul (Paul) was persecuting the church? Even when Judas betrayed Jesus, But Jesus said to him, “Friend, why have you come?” (Matt 26:47) For the 3 examples I given, God called David a man after God's own heart, and Paul wrote most of the letters in the New Testament. These 3 were murderers in fact (David killed the woman's husband he slept with, Saul (Paul) killed many Christians, Judas [who unfortunately hanged hmself] killed Jesus indirectly for his betrayal).

   Most of the time, the bible isn't logical... it wasn't logical why God even sent His Son. There are just too many illogical things that happened in the bible. But God is looking for faith. And whatever happens to the rapists, those who anyhow transmits HIV to one another, I can only say that God is the ultimate judge. Vengeance is His. 

    

3. Again, we just have to look into the bible. Romans 5:19a says, For as by one man’s (Adam's) disobedience many were made sinners, and Romans 3:23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The bible says we inherit the sinful nature because of Adam's sin. But the good news is, 2nd part of Romans 5:19, so also by one Man’s (Jesus) obedience many will be made righteous.

PS: I hope I do not make anyone feel I am holier than thou cos I quote scriptures, but this is what I have known and what I have learned throughout the years as a believer. I believe that God so loves you that He gave His only begotten Son, and whoever believes in Him shall not perish...

 

God loves you today, receive that! <3

 

 

sum1outhere,  you don't need to worry about appearing holier-than-thou citing the Bible.  The problem with that is ...  that most of us we don't give the Bible any value.  It is nothing but A BOOK.  To make things worse,  it is a book 2000 years old (for the new testament) written by unknown people and passed through many unreliable hands, copied from copies of copies...  The earliest Bible in existence is from about the year 400.  So to cite the Bible to substantiate your ideas has little value here.  For example: 

 

"1. God is not angry with us. In fact, God is for us (Rom 8:31)." 

 

How you know that God is not angry with us?  How can ANYBODY know this?   If God would be angry, would He be saying it around? 

You further write:

 

"Most of the time, the bible isn't logical... it wasn't logical why God even sent His Son. There are just too many illogical things that happened in the bible. But God is looking for faith. And whatever happens to the rapists, those who anyhow transmits HIV to one another, I can only say that God is the ultimate judge. Vengeance is His."

 

Why you want to believe something that is not logical?  Sometimes reality is not logical, but we only know this when the illogical reality becomes obviously real!  There is nothing that tells you that the BIble reflects reality.   And on top of this, it is not logical.  So...  how can you believe in that?

Edited November 16, 2013 by Steve5380

[sum1outhere_03]

Do you think the anti-gay verses are also illogical? How should gay Christians handle those verses?

Free Community Church is expert in doing this, do ask them :-)

[sum1outhere_03]

Yes, on a personal level, we need not announce our homosexuality.  As I have said, announcing it will invite unnecessary trouble.  While it is true that in some other countries, they do not WAIT for others to take action, in Sg who will bell the cat?  And how to bell the cat if you do not announce it?  Is it possible to take action anonymously in Sg?

 

In Malaysia, they also have the constitution & human rights law but so what?  Look at the Malay-Muslim radical forces.  All so paranoid.  The Court already said it is ok for Christians to use the word Allah but Perkasa and other forces still give trouble to churches, hence creating unending conflicts in the country.  One school principal even told non-Muslim students to eat their non-halal food in the school toilet during recess time.  In Indonesia, radical Muslims try to foil the building of new churches and even burn or throw stones at churches and the police can only stand and watch helplessly.  Whoever culprits arrested are not punished severely.  When I say "superiority", I mean in terms of numbers (brute force) and not in terms of logical reasoning or justice.  In these two countries, hatred & religious distortions have blinded them so much that they resort to violence & extra-constitutional pressures.

 

1.  No, you do not seem to be holier than anyone as you have been brainwashed by religion, just like me when young.  Since there is no way we can know whether God is angry or how God judges, why mention anger in the first place?

 

2.  I can also murder thousands of people and then turn to Christ and say, “Oh, Lord, I have sinned.  Forgive me and I shall be free from punishment.  Judge me after I die but for now, all Christians should forgive me.”  Then those Christian families of those whom I have murdered will say, “Yes, we forgive you for the thousands you have murdered. We won’t take revenge.  Leave it to God.  Amen.”  And then tomorrow I shall murder again.  And then repent again, “Oh Lord.  I have sinned again.  This time it’s for real.  Do pardon me.”  Then other criminals will follow suit and say to one another, “No sweat.  Just commit crimes first, then ask for forgiveness later.  We have a safety net.”  LOL.

 

3.  So the descendants of humans come from only two human beings?  And all their descendants have sinned just because of one couple?  Babies can inherit genes but to inherit sins?  Hard to swallow this myth.  You really digested the whole of Old Testament?  If God really loves us, why harp on the sins of Adam & Eve?  He could have just waived all sins.  Remember, He loves us!  Aiya, actually all this myth is just to make followers meek & humble lah.

 

4.  God loves us so much that he sent untold natural calamities and man-made disasters, even killing the Muslims in Mecca and Hindus in temples in India due to mass trampling and stampede.  What an irony!  So if one day I should be trampled to death while in the middle of a pilgrimage, I deserve it!  This is the price to pay for worshipping him.  No need to ask why.

 

5.  The above are based on logical reasoning and if you are still talking about a leap of faith, then there is no point discussing.

 

I don't see the need of calling any believer brainwashed... :-)

 

Of course, I don't believe that one should be killing or "deliberate sinning" after one receives Christ - I believe His righteousness will lead you.

 

No, I haven't digested the Old Testament but I do know whether Old or New, God loves us.

 

Yes, I also do believe we need to do some thinking after we read the bible, but I rather live by the following verse, "the just shall live by faith". Without faith, it's impossible to please God

[sliceboy]

I agree that we need to think after reading but my favorite verse is Proverbs 3:5, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." If you dare to go one verse further, "in all your ways submit to him and he will make your paths straight."

 

Yes, I also do believe we need to do some thinking after we read the bible, but I rather live by the following verse, "the just shall live by faith". Without faith, it's impossible to please God

[Steve5380]

I don't see the need of calling any believer brainwashed... :-)

 

Yes, I also do believe we need to do some thinking after we read the bible, but I rather live by the following verse, "the just shall live by faith". Without faith, it's impossible to please God

sum1outhere,  you would never call a believer brainwashed...   because you are a brainwashed believer  

 

No wonder Abrahamic religions have survived thousands of years.  They carry their survival potions in their own writings.  Like what you mentioned: "the just shall live by faith".    And so,  if you think you are just,  you will want to "live by faith",  and then you are obliged to believe in "the just shall live by faith"   Hahaha.... it's a vicious cycle  (yes, vicious and not holy!)