Discussion About Single & Hdb Flat Ownership + Hdb Loan (Compiled)

[Guest guest]

 

HDB defaults are not going to be a lot, neither is private. The rules put in place over the many years LTV/MSR will sustain your payments unless you are living paycheck to paycheck. With the abundance of demand currently, a recession will likely help clear the backlog by a bit - look at the number of applicants (usually in the 40x) for mature estate at minimum of 700k+ per unit.

 

Don't doubt the HFE, that's accurate. It's just the environment we're in that's ridiculous for public housing.

https://forms.uob.com.sg/property/calculator/

At age 35, with 5k/mth x 13 = 25 yrs loan can only afford max property price of 272k, cash/cpf outlay of 74k. Mature estates all out of reach already unless your cash/cpf is thick.

In current resale market, difficult to find a decent unit at 272k. Even you buy a 50 year old resale and low floor also need 300k.

[keyboard]

Maybe can bah, just much further away from MRT - >5 bus-stops.

If 5k salary still cannot buy resale - then really not affordable liao.

[Guest Repayment statement]

 

HDB defaults are not going to be a lot, neither is private. The rules put in place over the many years LTV/MSR will sustain your payments unless you are living paycheck to paycheck. With the abundance of demand currently, a recession will likely help clear the backlog by a bit - look at the number of applicants (usually in the 40x) for mature estate at minimum of 700k+ per unit.

 

Don't doubt the HFE, that's accurate. It's just the environment we're in that's ridiculous for public housing.

https://forms.uob.com.sg/property/calculator/

At age 35, with 5k/mth x 13 = 25 yrs loan can only afford max property price of 272k, cash/cpf outlay of 74k. Mature estates all out of reach already unless your cash/cpf is thick.

Your first few years HDB mortgage loan repayments are simply servicing the interest before you start servicing part of the principle loan amount that kicks in only many years later.  

[LeanMature]

 

i heard is that HDB lift cannot fit king size bed. not sure if true or not.

but new flats all after fitting a queen size bed, leaves only two human width (add the wardrobe, only left open door and stuck liao). This is already the case 20+ years back. Think the design got worst over the years only.

 

Whether King size or Queen size, you have to dissemble and assemble the frame inside the room, the door is too narrow to shift in.  

[LeanMature]

 

 

Thanks. I don't know the owner. I have contact the seller's agent from the website.

 

If I process the paperwork myself, do I get to save my agent fee?

 

No agent will advertise and let you know the unit number.  Once the seller engaged an agent, he will not deal directly with you.  It's not fair to the agent also.

[Guest guest]

Anyone have good reno ID to recommend? Wonder how much for a simple reno for overhaul the whole house will cost? 

[appboy]

Don't recommend using your cpf to pay for your mortgage. 

 

You will lose out on 2.5% cpf interest. And you need to put back the 2.5% when you sell the house. Hence, you’re losing out 5% in total. 

 

Cpf is for retirement. It should never be for housing, or investments.

[keyboard]

1 hour ago, appboy said:

Don't recommend using your cpf to pay for your mortgage. 

 

You will lose out on 2.5% cpf interest. And you need to put back the 2.5% when you sell the house. Hence, you’re losing out 5% in total. 

 

Cpf is for retirement. It should never be for housing, or investments.

Beg to differ. If you spend enough time to do research, the possibility of earning cash could exceed the 2.5% which could help pay off your loan faster. The 5% calculation does not sound correct, you pay back 2.5% accrued interest (something like compounded).

[Sweetie Pie]

13 hours ago, keyboard said:

 The 5% calculation does not sound correct, you pay back 2.5% accrued interest (something like compounded).

if you utilize CPF for a mortgage, the government is telling you to pay your own interest that has accrued.  On the other hand, the government will pay the accrued interest on your behalf if you don't use the CPF.

 

In simple terms. Once you utilize your CPF, accrued interest becomes a loan interest (you owe) that, if you didn't use your CPF, would be your CPF savings income (the government owe you).

[lonelyglobe]

16 hours ago, appboy said:

Don't recommend using your cpf to pay for your mortgage. 

 

You will lose out on 2.5% cpf interest. And you need to put back the 2.5% when you sell the house. Hence, you’re losing out 5% in total. 

 

Cpf is for retirement. It should never be for housing, or investments.

Can be more than 2.5%, fix deposit used to have above 3.5% meaning for every 100k u lose out 3.5k and 200k is 7k, work out to about 600 per month. If u buy a flat and rent out a room,  easily can get more than 600. But then without CPF,  who can actually afford to buy unless u have a rich parent,  otherwise taking a higher housing loan is not worth it too. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by lonelyglobe

[sayfirst]

20 hours ago, appboy said:

Don't recommend using your cpf to pay for your mortgage. 

 

You will lose out on 2.5% cpf interest. And you need to put back the 2.5% when you sell the house. Hence, you’re losing out 5% in total. 

 

Cpf is for retirement. It should never be for housing, or investments.

The total amount that you’ll have to pay back to your CPF account is the principal amount plus accrued interest, which is as if you had not used it for housing in the first place. 

[Guest guest]

3 hours ago, sayfirst said:

The total amount that you’ll have to pay back to your CPF account is the principal amount plus accrued interest, which is as if you had not used it for housing in the first place. 

Do you need to pay back the accrued interest when you sell the house? What if my selling price cannot pay back the accrued interest, what will happen?

[sayfirst]

21 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

Do you need to pay back the accrued interest when you sell the house? What if my selling price cannot pay back the accrued interest, what will happen?

 

Yes, accrued interest is payable as CPF funds was used to finance the housing purchase. 

 

Ideally, the selling price should cover the outstanding loan amount + CPF OA principal amount + accrued interest + any other fees. The balance would then be the cash proceeds.

 

If the principal amount + accrued interest can’t be covered, you don’t need to pay the shortfall to CPF Board, as long as the property was sold at market value. 

 

With that said, 95% of sellers last year were able to fully refund the CPF used when they sold their property. 

 

[Guest guest]

18 minutes ago, sayfirst said:

 

Yes, accrued interest is payable as CPF funds was used to finance the housing purchase. 

 

Ideally, the selling price should cover the outstanding loan amount + CPF OA principal amount + accrued interest + any other fees. The balance would then be the cash proceeds.

 

If the principal amount + accrued interest can’t be covered, you don’t need to pay the shortfall to CPF Board, as long as the property was sold at market value. 

 

With that said, 95% of sellers last year were able to fully refund the CPF used when they sold their property. 

 

No wonder nowadays many owners when they sell their hdb, the asking price is crazily high, cause they must sell above market value to cover outstanding loan amount + CPF OA principal amount + accrued interest + any other fees.

[keyboard]

Erm, during recession/financial crash, CPF also still need to pay what you mentioned, but you don't see the same high asking price.

The current situation is due to covid where HDB have a backlog to build and yet the demand for BTO despite the measures introduced is not stopping the demand in the good economic climate.

[Guest Guest]

2 hours ago, keyboard said:

Erm, during recession/financial crash, CPF also still need to pay what you mentioned, but you don't see the same high asking price.

The current situation is due to covid where HDB have a backlog to build and yet the demand for BTO despite the measures introduced is not stopping the demand in the good economic climate.

But even though covid already over and the pace of building BTO has back  on track, and yet the crazy asking price for resale hdb still did not go down now. 

[keyboard]

I think recently news have report, or was it that minister desmond lee said on tv or something, price have stabilized for dont know how many months or quarter. there's also a website that tracks resale price for each region, cant remember if it's SRX or something. Can look there to give you exact figures if you're looking for the peak or not.

[lonelyglobe]

20 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

But even though covid already over and the pace of building BTO has back  on track, and yet the crazy asking price for resale hdb still did not go down now. 

Not so true,  it have been reported the price for 3 room resale have dipped by 0.5% for the second quarter of 2023. What is significant is not the amount but the fact that it finally start to drop since 2020.

 

It would take a little bit longer for price to drop then for it to increase. Fourth quarter will be an interesting one and if a recession happen in 2024, then the price can only drop further unless another new round of covid forced us into another CB and paused all construction.

 

The difference in price can be at least 50-60k during the high and the low period,  so definitely worth to be a bit more patient. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by lonelyglobe

[Guest guest]

14 hours ago, lonelyglobe said:

Not so true,  it have been reported the price for 3 room resale have dipped by 0.5% for the second quarter of 2023. What is significant is not the amount but the fact that it finally start to drop since 2020.

 

It would take a little bit longer for price to drop then for it to increase. Fourth quarter will be an interesting one and if a recession happen in 2024, then the price can only drop further unless another new round of covid forced us into another CB and paused all construction.

 

The difference in price can be at least 50-60k during the high and the low period,  so definitely worth to be a bit more patient. 

There is a risk to take either wait or don't want to wait. If buy now, even though the price is high but if wait, the price might go even higher. No one can guarantee next year or so, the price will up or down.

 

But many people predict housing price will only go up than to come down. Better to buy early than late.

[lonelyglobe]

17 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

There is a risk to take either wait or don't want to wait. If buy now, even though the price is high but if wait, the price might go even higher. No one can guarantee next year or so, the price will up or down.

 

But many people predict housing price will only go up than to come down. Better to buy early than late.

Yes,  everything in life there is risk involved,  from the moment u decided to step out of house,  take a lift etc and the list goes on and on.

 

It is precisely that kind of "buy now" sentiment which allowed seller to hold on to their price or asking for ridiculous price. Sometime we cant blame the govt or environment, we only have ourselve to blame for increasing price, not only for flat but also for other stuff. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by lonelyglobe

[Guest guest]

9 minutes ago, lonelyglobe said:

Yes,  everything in life there is risk involved,  from the moment u decided to step out of house,  take a lift etc and the list goes on and on.

 

It is precisely that kind of "buy now" sentiment which allowed seller to hold on to their price or asking for ridiculous price. Sometime we cant blame the govt or environment, we only have ourselve to blame for increasing price, not only for flat but also for other stuff. 

True that. Like people always say, willing seller willing buyer, so cannot blame those resale HDB sold at ridiculous price. But like some people also say, this is what the current market pricing for resale flat is, so it is for the rich to buy or those who can afford to buy. If you cannot afford it, you would get casted out.

 

Same theory for current car coe. If you are poor and cannot afford the $130k coe, then too bad and give up owning a car and go take public, and don't blame the govt or those people who drive up the coe price and causes you cannot buy a car. 😅

[sayfirst]

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/hdb-to-launch-up-to-14000-two-room-flexi-bto-flats-from-2024-to-2026-desmond-lee
 

Good move to address the pent-up demand given the high oversubscription rate by singles. There were more than 4 applications by first-timer singles for each 2-room flat in the most recent May 2023 BTO launch. 
 

This can help reduce demand by single homebuyers for resale HDB flats, though in my personal experience single homebuyers typically try their luck at applying for BTO/SBF flats first before weighing their options. 

[Sweetie Pie]

26 minutes ago, sayfirst said:

Good move to address the pent-up demand given the high oversubscription rate by singles. There were more than 4 applications by first-timer singles for each 2-room flat in the most recent May 2023 BTO launch. 

4 applicants for each 2-room flat is not high.  I cannot say the same about single applying for PRIME, PRIME PLUS district area which will become quite popular among Singles compared to those in remote area. 

 

26 minutes ago, sayfirst said:

 

This can help reduce demand by single homebuyers for resale HDB flats, though in my personal experience single homebuyers typically try their luck at applying for BTO/SBF flats first before weighing their options. 

Individuals who can afford a three-room resale apartment will prefer bigger indoor space. Additionally, 2-room BTOs won't be very valuable on the resale market because singles can easily purchase new one directly from HDB for a lower price, unless the government stop building 2-room BTO which is very unlikely. 

 

The only time that 3-room resale price will plunge is when Govt decided to allow Singles to purhase new 3-room BTO from HDB.  I doubt this is going to happen, thus the resale price for 3-room HDB will continue to be high as compared to resale price of 2-room BTO in in the market. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Sweetie Pie

[Guest guest]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:13 AM, Sweetie Pie said:

4 applicants for each 2-room flat is not high.  I cannot say the same about single applying for PRIME, PRIME PLUS district area which will become quite popular among Singles compared to those in remote area. 

 

Individuals who can afford a three-room resale apartment will prefer bigger indoor space. Additionally, 2-room BTOs won't be very valuable on the resale market because singles can easily purchase new one directly from HDB for a lower price, unless the government stop building 2-room BTO which is very unlikely. 

 

The only time that 3-room resale price will plunge is when Govt decided to allow Singles to purhase new 3-room BTO from HDB.  I doubt this is going to happen, thus the resale price for 3-room HDB will continue to be high as compared to resale price of 2-room BTO in in the market. 

I saw the resale 2 rm flat in market now average $300k plus, consider not cheap. And these $300k plus resale 2 rm flat location is far from town.

 

I wonder why they do not allow singles to buy a new 3rm BTO flat? This will win a lot of votes from singles that govt is taking care of the singles as well.

[thickhead79]

34 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

I saw the resale 2 rm flat in market now average $300k plus, consider not cheap. And these $300k plus resale 2 rm flat location is far from town.

 

I wonder why they do not allow singles to buy a new 3rm BTO flat? This will win a lot of votes from singles that govt is taking care of the singles as well.

not enough flat to let every get BTO

But nothign stop u from resale flat 

 

if u cannot afford just too bad

 

300k for 2 room is normal price 

 

Yishun is just 30min away by MRT to town

[thickhead79]

the market supply will cut from 2024 once the new 10y MOP kick in 

these will last until 2034 when MOP ended

Market price will continue to go up these 10y due to these 10y MOP

 

good luck

[Guest guest]

1 hour ago, thickhead79 said:

the market supply will cut from 2024 once the new 10y MOP kick in 

these will last until 2034 when MOP ended

Market price will continue to go up these 10y due to these 10y MOP

 

good luck

10 year MOP only apply those Plus and Prime. Standard HDB supply not enough?

 

Looks like HDB resale price will continue to go up. If you find current resale is crazy ex, next few years down the road, could be even more crazy ex. Currently for 3 rm resale HDB, average is mid $400k then can get a more decent flat. Lower than this price difficult to buy.

[Sweetie Pie]

9 hours ago, thickhead79 said:

the market supply will cut from 2024 once the new 10y MOP kick in 

these will last until 2034 when MOP ended

Market price will continue to go up these 10y due to these 10y MOP

 

good luck

The 10 year MOP will sustain the current high rental price in the market too because these new BTO cannot rent their flat for 10 FULL YEARS!!!

8 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Currently for 3 rm resale HDB, average is mid $400k then can get a more decent flat. Lower than this price difficult to buy.

Not even at good location.  Imagine another influx of population and things will get worse for those wanting a home.  Singapore built so many MRT lines, not for show, it has has agenda.  Now that transport fee hike is on its way on top of the 2nd GST hike,  PUB is hinting that water treatment is becoming more expensive.  

[lonelyglobe]

12 hours ago, Guest guest said:

I saw the resale 2 rm flat in market now average $300k plus, consider not cheap. And these $300k plus resale 2 rm flat location is far from town.

 

I wonder why they do not allow singles to buy a new 3rm BTO flat? This will win a lot of votes from singles that govt is taking care of the singles as well.

Why would they need to win over single when majority single are already voting for them?

 

I dont see any reason for single to buy 300k plus 2 room resale when they can apply for a new 99 years lease at $150k?

[lonelyglobe]

5 hours ago, Sweetie Pie said:

Singapore built so many MRT lines, not for show, it has has agenda.  Now that transport fee hike is on its way on top of the 2nd GST hike,  PUB is hinting that water treatment is becoming more expensive.  

Definitely,  dont be fooled when they say for better connectivity,  is actually more to disperse crowd, nowadays MRT got no more peak and off peak,  is all peak or super peak from mon to sun,  morning to night. Buy house near MRT is not enough,  have to be the first MRT station along whatever color line. 

 

Water price is next to increase followed by electricity, Service and conservancy charge. Not to forget the 1% GST increase is going to translate into 10-20% price increase.

Edited September 24, 2023 by lonelyglobe

[thickhead79]

47 minutes ago, lonelyglobe said:

Why would they need to win over single when majority single are already voting for them?

 

I dont see any reason for single to buy 300k plus 2 room resale when they can apply for a new 99 years lease at $150k?

could be due to location

BTO need to wait 3 4 years

Resale u can move in asap

 

resale flat also can stay near their parents to get more grants

i think 4km?

Edited September 24, 2023 by thickhead79

[Guest guest]

10 hours ago, lonelyglobe said:

Why would they need to win over single when majority single are already voting for them?

 

I dont see any reason for single to buy 300k plus 2 room resale when they can apply for a new 99 years lease at $150k?

Wonder who are the buyers for those 2 rm resale flat in the market? Esp when it is not so very cheap now.

 

Maybe those singles who do not want to 3-4 years for their new bto flat. And yet they cannot afford 3 rm resale flat.

[Guest guest]

9 hours ago, thickhead79 said:

could be due to location

BTO need to wait 3 4 years

Resale u can move in asap

 

resale flat also can stay near their parents to get more grants

i think 4km?

Buy new BTO that stay near parents can get grants also?

[thickhead79]

1 hour ago, Guest guest said:

Buy new BTO that stay near parents can get grants also?

no

 

• Your parents/ child are living in an HDB flat or private residential property which is within 4km^ of the resale flat you intend to buy. If they do not own the private residential property, it must be owner-occupied by immediate family members, i.e. child or adopted child, parent(s) or parent(s)-in-law, or siblings

Flat type	Singles living with parents/ child or applicants buying with their non-resident spouse: Any flat type Singles living near parents/ child: 2 to 5-room flat
Remaining lease of flat	More than 20 years

[thickhead79]

Proximity Housing Grant (Singles)

If you are buying a resale flat to live with or near your parents/ child, you may apply for the following Proximity Housing Grant (PHG) (Singles):

• $15,000 to live with your parents/ child
• $10,000 to live near your parents/ child (within 4km)

[Sweetie Pie]

11 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Wonder who are the buyers for those 2 rm resale flat in the market? Esp when it is not so very cheap now.

 

May be those being rejected by HDB for buying 2-rm BTO directly,  but wanted to downgrade from their 5-room flat or condo and thus opt for the resale 2-room BTO.   

 

2-room BTO is also competing with a more economy 2-room BTO (short lease).  Expect 2-room BTO value to plunge drastically, compare to 3-room resale flat, when it starts to decay in lease after reaching 20-30 years of age,    Thus 2-room BTO is not a good "investment" in the long term.   You count yourself lucky if your 2-room BTO is facing a sea, like habour front or East Coast Park, then probably people will buy.   2-ROOM BTO will also not appeal to Singles staying in their existing 3 or 4 room flat, because it makes no huge impact when they monetize their home.  Most will opt for short lease to see real capital gain. 

 

Simply,  2-room BTO is like a moon,  3-room resale is like earth.  The two are tidal lock to each other.  If 2-room price goes up,  3-room resale will jump even further.  There is no way 2-room resale can catch up with 3-room price, the bottom line is THE SIZE. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Sweetie Pie

[kidster]

Does anyone know how compensation work for en bloc? 

 

Is the owner compensated based on the area of his current unit? 

 

I'm asking because some corner units of old flats, the owners bought over the recess area (corridor) from HDB.

 

For these units, do they get a lot more compensation as compared to an unit of standard size?

[Guest Ping]

As a foreigner, can i rent 2 room at different hdb? My job require me to travel east west, ill sometimes stay ar room1 and sometimes stay at room2. Is that allowed?

[thickhead79]

10 hours ago, Guest Ping said:

As a foreigner, can i rent 2 room at different hdb? My job require me to travel east west, ill sometimes stay ar room1 and sometimes stay at room2. Is that allowed?

yes allow, u must indicate 1 address to MOM or your permit

[thickhead79]

14 hours ago, kidster said:

Does anyone know how compensation work for en bloc? 

 

Is the owner compensated based on the area of his current unit? 

 

I'm asking because some corner units of old flats, the owners bought over the recess area (corridor) from HDB.

 

For these units, do they get a lot more compensation as compared to an unit of standard size?

supposedly yes get more 

Edited September 26, 2023 by thickhead79

[Guest guest]

21 hours ago, Guest Ping said:

As a foreigner, can i rent 2 room at different hdb? My job require me to travel east west, ill sometimes stay ar room1 and sometimes stay at room2. Is that allowed?

Rent 2 rooms? Spend so much on rental. Travelling from east to west or west to east not say super far. 

[thickhead79]

27 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

Rent 2 rooms? Spend so much on rental. Travelling from east to west or west to east not say super far. 

haha take grab also cheaper

[thickhead79]

又一间百万组屋单位售出！武吉班让（Bukit Panjang）位于日叻务路（Jelebu Road）一个组屋公寓式单位以102万元转售，是该区第一间百万元组屋。

据 EdgeProp Singapore 称，这是该区第一间突破百万元的组屋

 

Bt Panjiang 1st million dollar HDB

[Guest Wait n See Lor]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:12 PM, kidster said:

Does anyone know how compensation work for en bloc? 

 

Is the owner compensated based on the area of his current unit? 

 

I'm asking because some corner units of old flats, the owners bought over the recess area (corridor) from HDB.

 

For these units, do they get a lot more compensation as compared to an unit of standard size?

Your compensation varies according the value if it were to be sold in the open market.  There is no one value fit all which is why HDB will engage a valuers to assess each unit accordingly and the number of lease left.   Once you purchased the recess area, it is also factored into the total floor area according to the title deeds.  

 

If you think enbloc is windfall, the recent enbloc in AMK is a dissappointment to many who were forced to evacuate.   HDB WILL NOT DO ONE OLD-TO-ONE NEW BTO REPLACEMENT, unless you top up to match the BTO market price.  

 

Having said that, with the Prime and Prime Plus zoning coming into place next year,  HDB may tweak the policies on enbloc again.  Instead of speculating what will happen, why not wait until it really happened and you can ask the staff on the spot.  Save you all the worries.

[Guest Landlord Beware]

13 hours ago, Guest guest said:

Rent 2 rooms? Spend so much on rental. Travelling from east to west or west to east not say super far. 

Contingency plan for him, in case the first landlard chased him out and he still have 2nd place to stay.  If I am landlord, I won't rent to him.  He will try to damage your furnitures or default payment and run away to stay elsewhere.

[thickhead79]

3 hours ago, Guest Landlord Beware said:

Contingency plan for him, in case the first landlard chased him out and he still have 2nd place to stay.  If I am landlord, I won't rent to him.  He will try to damage your furnitures or default payment and run away to stay elsewhere.

if he tell u he rent 2 places?

 

if he nvn tell u?

[ladyheart]

I just got my bto 2 room flat.  Can anyone can show some advice how to go about it with the renovation. Basically I don't have much saving, so just intend to just do some little renovation.  What should I do first? Can someone to do the electrical? Toilet renovation? Basically, there are no water basin and tap in toilet and kitchen. 

[thickhead79]

1 minute ago, ladyheart said:

I just got my bto 2 room flat.  Can anyone can show some advice how to go about it with the renovation. Basically I don't have much saving, so just intend to just do some little renovation.  What should I do first? Can someone to do the electrical? Toilet renovation? Basically, there are no water basin and tap in toilet and kitchen. 

all depend what u want 

 

for me kitchen is not important since i cant cook

 

toilet is important to me, i need a dry and wet area 

 

living room and bed room just simple wall painting is fine enough 

 

and of course flooring important too

 

nothing much needed to do for a 2 room flat, unless u think u going to stay there forever

 

my 1st renovation without ID cost me 8k
my 2nd renovation with ID cost me 15k 

[oBiGeekie]

9 minutes ago, ladyheart said:

I just got my bto 2 room flat.  Can anyone can show some advice how to go about it with the renovation. Basically I don't have much saving, so just intend to just do some little renovation.  What should I do first? Can someone to do the electrical? Toilet renovation? Basically, there are no water basin and tap in toilet and kitchen. 

 
Really depends on budget. For me bathroom and kitchen are important at the start. Most important appliance would be the fridge. Most important item would be a mattress (can get low cost ones) and lighting. The rest you can slowly buy loose furniture.

Edited September 30, 2023 by oBiGeekie

[ladyheart]

4 minutes ago, thickhead79 said:

all depend what u want 

 

for me kitchen is not important since i cant cook

 

toilet is important to me, i need a dry and wet area 

 

living room and bed room just simple wall painting is fine enough 

 

and of course flooring important too

 

nothing much needed to do for a 2 room flat, unless u think u going to stay there forever

 

my 1st renovation without ID cost me 8k
my 2nd renovation with ID cost me 15k 

Thank you. I not going to do flooring cos it already done. But kitchen need to have tap and sink. Cos have to get someone to do the water piping. I heard from others that better to get individual people to do it, rather then give to one renovation firm