Surrogacy Discussion (compiled)

[Andrew ang525]

3 hours ago, Guest Law said:

 

No need to serve NS as long as the child is US citizen.The child is not PR and sg citizen now .  Apply special dependent pass visa until 18 years old. 

May be tricky.... if you apply the child to stay in Sg (despite a foreign citizenship) under LTSV pass, your child may potentially be considered for NS, the law is a little tricky here...

[kratos]

22 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

Anyone here is lawyer, who can search the actual case judgment?  Without reading the actual ruling, it is difficult to make sense out.  I tried but without the actual name(s) i failed to get the rulings.
Can someone help.

 

 

The blogger posted the PDF at the bottom of her article

http://olivia.thechiongs.com/2017/12/27/justice-equality-children-lgbt-parents/

 

EDIT: I really disagreed with the court interpretation of the adoption act. There's no clear law against surrogacy, the only thing she can fault them is that they paid the surrogate mother money to carry the child to term. The whole thing is just smell of the 377A controversy. 

 

Quoted from the judge

Quote

This Court is obligated to interpret the law and not make it. The law mirrors the morality and wishes of the majority of Singaporeans. It bears repeating that while the policy concerns of the Ministry are noted,...

Again with the "silent majority", and she effectively say that gay families are not allowed to have kids.

 

Worse still, the judge tried to absolve herself of any guilt by saying, the child will be taken care of even without the adoption.

 

I'm just pissed. Either she is just too scared to be seen as "pro-gay" or she's bringing her own bias into her ruling.

Edited December 28, 2017 by kratos
Spelling, typos

[Andrew ang525]

1 hour ago, kratos said:

 

The blogger posted the PDF at the bottom of her article

http://olivia.thechiongs.com/2017/12/27/justice-equality-children-lgbt-parents/

 

EDIT: I really disagreed with the court interpretation of the adoption act. There's no clear law against surrogacy, the only thing she can fault them is that they paid the surrogate mother money to carry the child to term. The whole thing is just smell of the 377A controversy. 

 

 

The father need not apply for adoption at all.  He should not, and now it is bring the whole issue into a mess (at least for others who are considering surrogacy).  Now it seems to set a precedent.  I have been researching into this for several years, and is currently waiting for another embryo transfer.  I had a plan (which seems to work, having discussion with several government bodies) but now with this ruling, it may jeopardize all my works, because those bodies of government may change position after this case.

 

It appear from the “Brief Grounds of Decisions" (this is still not the full text of Rulings, but somewhat closer) it seems that this is a case of (simple) application of adoption.  And this is not a case of child's citizenship which a lot more of us are concerned.

 

I wish the parents are in this forum.  The community need to discuss on this.

[Intended Father]

5 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

May be tricky.... if you apply the child to stay in Sg (despite a foreign citizenship) under LTSV pass, your child may potentially be considered for NS, the law is a little tricky here...

 

No. My friends children from Indonesia , Sabah and Sarawak all grew up under dependent pass in Singapore do not serve NS.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Intended Father

[Andrew ang525]

So, any new development?  Is the community still interested in surrogacy?

[Steve5380]

12 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

So, any new development?  Is the community still interested in surrogacy?

 

I am curious about surrogacy and interested in understanding the rationale of a gay man who wants to have biological children.

I am a gay man who got a child in the most natural way:  I got married to a woman because I thought that this was my destiny, and I perhaps was not fully gay but just inexperienced.

My wife and I raised this child in harmony and companionship, she was very attractive but sex didn't last for long, something that she didn't seem to mind too much and neither did I. We divorced more than ten years later for some incompatibilities that were not related to sexual orientation.

 

Over the years I have learned that there are women who want children but don't want to be married. They don't want to be enslaved to a husband, and sex is not very important to them. I also have no doubts that being gay does not prevent one from ejaculating inside a woman and make her pregnant, especially if she does much of the work. So my question is:  why cannot a gay man find a woman who is nice and caring, and is willing to be with the man for the purpose of having children with him regardless of any intimacy with the man or concern about his sex life, as long as he is a responsible and caring person.  She may be willing to accept that "her" man is gay and has a boyfriend.  In this situation, wouldn't the gay man be better off than attempting to go through the complications, cost, uncertainties, questionable legality of the child that imply this surrogacy?

 

Children are not our property anyway. We may have custody of them, but only while they are minors. To share children with their mother, either married to her or not, means that she has equal rights over them and may want to share their custody in case of separation and divorce.  But such separation, divorce does not need to be a fight, and society is much more accepting today of families that split through separation, divorce and share in the custody of the children. The gay man will be their father forever, and the child may not see him much differently than if the parents remain happily together, which is never a certainty.

.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Steve5380

[Andrew ang525]

2 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

I am curious about surrogacy and interested in understanding the rationale of a gay man who wants to have biological children.

I am a gay man who got a child in the most natural way:  I got married to a woman because I thought that this was my destiny, and I perhaps was not fully gay but just inexperienced.

My wife and I raised this child in harmony and companionship, she was very attractive but sex didn't last for long, something that she didn't seem to mind too much and neither did I. We divorced more than ten years later for some incompatibilities that were not related to sexual orientation.

 

Over the years I have learned that there are women who want children but don't want to be married. They don't want to be enslaved to a husband, and sex is not very important to them. I also have no doubts that being gay does not prevent one from ejaculating inside a woman and make her pregnant, especially if she does much of the work. So my question is:  why cannot a gay man find a woman who is nice and caring, and is willing to be with the man for the purpose of having children with him regardless of any intimacy with the man or concern about his sex life, as long as he is a responsible and caring person.  She may be willing to accept that "her" man is gay and has a boyfriend.  In this situation, wouldn't the gay man be better off than attempting to go through the complications, cost, uncertainties, questionable legality of the child that imply this surrogacy?

 

Children are not our property anyway. We may have custody of them, but only while they are minors. To share children with their mother, either married to her or not, means that she has equal rights over them and may want to share their custody in case of separation and divorce.  But such separation, divorce does not need to be a fight, and society is much more accepting today of families that split through separation, divorce and share in the custody of the children. The gay man will be their father forever, and the child may not see him much differently than if the parents remain happily together, which is never a certainty.

.

Yes, but such paring is almost impossible to find.  It is politically incorrect to ask (let's say, a gay man met a woman, and not knowing her preference, how could he ask)

[Steve5380]

18 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

Yes, but such paring is almost impossible to find.  It is politically incorrect to ask (let's say, a gay man met a woman, and not knowing her preference, how could he ask)

 

It is almost impossible to do unless one socializes with many women. But in casual acquaintance one can ask personal questions, and even give personal information.  Like asking: "would you like to have children?", and revealing "I am gay, but I would like to have children if this were possible".

[Andrew ang525]

7 hours ago, Steve5380 said:

 

It is almost impossible to do unless one socializes with many women. But in casual acquaintance one can ask personal questions, and even give personal information.  Like asking: "would you like to have children?", and revealing "I am gay, but I would like to have children if this were possible".

Actually i even joined Lesbian social meeting groups (via meet-up) and had the permission of the leader of those groups.... but still very difficult.

 

[Andrew ang525]

https://www.todayonline.com/voices/preventing-gay-father-adopting-surrogate-child-does-not-benefit-spore

[Guest Don't fret]

I read from the first entry of this thread to the very last. It's just amazing on many of the respondent questions and answers. I suggest the best option is adoption. It's don't cost that much and it's easier. Ask yourself why you wanted to have biological kid? Do you have a strong DNA? Do you have great lineage and surnames? Remember there's always another set of DNA so yours won't be exclusive. There are so many cute, adorable and beautiful babies out there that need a loving caring gay couple. Family is not about blood but by love just like how you found and able to love your other half. If you are very serious and paternal instinct is beckoning you strongly, go to the ministry that regulates adoption, express your intention, the ministry will appoint a home study done, upon approval proceed to find your baby. The baby once legitimize by sg court will only carry your name and your name alone. No mother or woman will challenge you in court asking for custody in the future. It's that cherry on a cake!

[Andrew ang525]

4 hours ago, Guest Don't fret said:

I read from the first entry of this thread to the very last. It's just amazing on many of the respondent questions and answers. I suggest the best option is adoption. It's don't cost that much and it's easier. Ask yourself why you wanted to have biological kid? Do you have a strong DNA? Do you have great lineage and surnames? Remember there's always another set of DNA so yours won't be exclusive. There are so many cute, adorable and beautiful babies out there that need a loving caring gay couple. Family is not about blood but by love just like how you found and able to love your other half. If you are very serious and paternal instinct is beckoning you strongly, go to the ministry that regulates adoption, express your intention, the ministry will appoint a home study done, upon approval proceed to find your baby. The baby once legitimize by sg court will only carry your name and your name alone. No mother or woman will challenge you in court asking for custody in the future. It's that cherry on a cake!

As single, you have ZERO chance of adoption.  MSFD will not grant you an adoption order (exception, if the child is from your siblings or cousins where you have genetic link)

[wilfgene]

2 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

As single, you have ZERO chance of adoption.  MSFD will not grant you an adoption order (exception, if the child is from your siblings or cousins where you have genetic link)

Didn't you mention you are on some sort of social benefit?

And you contemplate "managing" even a child 

Life-time planning, including euthanasia may be more advisable.

Since with a surname of Ang, you are highly unlikely to be a Cantonese. 

[Andrew ang525]

4 hours ago, wilfgene said:

Didn't you mention you are on some sort of social benefit?

And you contemplate "managing" even a child 

Life-time planning, including euthanasia may be more advisable.

Since with a surname of Ang, you are highly unlikely to be a Cantonese. 

I am replying to Guest Don't fret  , explaining why adoption will not work for SINGLE MAN.... not talking about myself.

[Guest Dont fret]

8 hours ago, Andrew ang525 said:

As single, you have ZERO chance of adoption.  MSFD will not grant you an adoption order (exception, if the child is from your siblings or cousins where you have genetic link)

Sorry yo break it to you, you're wrong. I, applied to adopt and my application was approved, that was 5 years ago. The thing is never to reveal that you are gay when you make the application submission and never tell the person who conducted the home study that you're gay either. Trust me they ask all sorts of questions but stay calm. I don't know why you said as single you've zero chance, have you applied yourself or are you making an assumption? It's all in your explanations, responses and reasoning to them to have a successful application. 

[Andrew ang525]

1 hour ago, Guest Dont fret said:

Sorry yo break it to you, you're wrong. I, applied to adopt and my application was approved, that was 5 years ago. The thing is never to reveal that you are gay when you make the application submission and never tell the person who conducted the home study that you're gay either. Trust me they ask all sorts of questions but stay calm. I don't know why you said as single you've zero chance, have you applied yourself or are you making an assumption? It's all in your explanations, responses and reasoning to them to have a successful application. 

Maybe i am outdated now.... I used to work for MCYS (then, now MSFD) when Vivian was minister, Thanks for updating.   Just curious, did you successfuly adopt, getting approval is only the first step.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Andrew ang525

[Guest Don't fret]

1 hour ago, Andrew ang525 said:

Maybe i am outdated now.... I used to work for MCYS (then, now MSFD) when Vivian was minister, Thanks for updating.   Just curious, did you successfuly adopt, getting approval is only the first step.

Yes, succeeded and a proud father now. Beautiful journey of fatherhood that brings immense joy to me and my partner.

[Andrew ang525]

4 hours ago, Guest Don't fret said:

Yes, succeeded and a proud father now. Beautiful journey of fatherhood that brings immense joy to me and my partner.

Care to share how you found the adopted babies?  From which country, and is it through agency?

[Guest Don't fret]

49 minutes ago, Andrew ang525 said:

Care to share how you found the adopted babies?  From which country, and is it through agency?

The questions you asked are the second step. Get the first step first then move on to the second step/phase. Cross the bridge when you get to it. I read over the thread that you've spent 5 years researching about being a parent in Singapore. That's a wasted 5 years wondering and pondering about the issue. We are mere mortals and now you're 5 years older from the time you did your research. Don't over analyst, overthink, over research. But you have think it throughly as you are bring a child into your life. The child is innocent. There's ups and downs to raising and parenting a child. Set your priorities straight and do deep soul searching as to why you wanted to be a parent because being a parent you have to provide emotional, psychological, financial and unconditional love to the child for the rest of your life as I foresee parent dies first, it's not like having a dog, cat, rabbit or other pets. The child is human, remember that. You cannot forsake him when times are rough and tough for you. Always provide good father to son relationships and love and nurture him well to be a responsible and socially adjusted individual to you, his parent/s, family, society, nation and the world. Raise him well as he is your living legacy.

 

It doesn't matter which country as you can adop from China, Malaysia or Indonesia depending what race you prefer. Makes no difference is you find your baby through agency or other contact. 

 

 

[Andrew ang525]

So, those people who visited NewLife for surrogacy, have you found your answer??

[Andrew ang525]

http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/society/article/2127506/where-go-what-do-family-singapores-gay-surrogacy-adoption-case
https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/12/30/fathers-bid-to-adopt-biological-son-through-surrogate-mother-rejected-by-singapore-court/

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/failed-adoption-case-dad-still-enjoys-rights

http://www.theindependent.sg/familys-future-is-uncertain-in-singapores-gay-surrogacy-adoption-case/

http://www.youngparents.com.sg/pregnancy-baby/gay-man-not-allowed-adopt-son-fathered-surrogacy/

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew ang525]

Ah, no more interest in surrogacy, whether traditional surrogacy or gestational surrogacy.

[Andrew ang525]

Anyone in the community keen for surrogacy?
Anyone attempted before?
 

[yoyo74]

Before u try it u need to read the law first if u able to get back your children or not. Laws here is not favourable to gays

[FIRE2020]

I am definitely not keen to do it.

 

I came across a friend from China who used to work in SG did that. He wanted to have a son notwithstanding being PLU and never intends to get marry.

 

 It was done in Thailand. The agency arranged for him to choose the egg from list of candidates and thereafter he would choose another woman who would carry the baby for next ten months. By doing so, it would reduce the woman's attachment to the baby.

 

After she gave birth to baby, the agency would complete the legal paper for her to give up the right to baby and the father then apply to CN embassy with DNA results to obtain the passport to enable the baby to be brought home.

 

He shown me the picture of baby once when he was 2 to 3 years old. One look at the boy photo, I could ascertain that is his boy and the boy really looks like the dad but only variance is that the boy was having darker skin compared to his father probably due to his mom being Thai.

 

He did it before that the following incident surfaced in the news.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/20/japanese-man-custody-13-surrogate-children-thai-court

 

 

 

[will7z]

I recently read something about the topic. S.E Asia has banned legal surrogacy for quite few years. Depending on the budget, the only few lawful places to go for surrogacy are the USA which costs at least 200-300k SGD or Russia which is more affordable at about half the price. Ukraine and Georgia are also doable at even lower price but I doubt their success rate and reliability can match those done in the US or Russia.
 

These countries have sound laws to protect the intended parents, i.e the biological parents. Surrogate mothers usually have their own children and family, and they take it like a well-paid job that can earn them fast money to improve their own family lives. They don’t have much incentive to fight for the baby’s custody and would sign legal paper to give up any parenting right before the surrogacy. Hence, baby’s birth certificate would only bear the names of intended parents without mentioning any surrogacy information at all. Russia can even allow to put the name of a parent that is not genetically related to the child.

 

However, in order to bring the baby home, you still need to have a legal marriage certificate that bears your name and the woman’s name which also appear the same on the baby’s birth certificate. So the baby would prove to be your legally wed-born child and hence you are his/her legal father in Singapore.

 

Above is only a brief summary of the legal aspect, there are also medical parts to consider. For example, the IVF success rate is about 50-60% even at those world class clinics for intended parents at age 35 or below. Once exceeded the age limit, the success rate can drop significantly which means you need to prepare more money and spend more time to repeat the process again until you can welcome your baby to the world.

Edited September 21, 2020 by will7z
.

[FIRE2020]

This articles explains SG law toward this topics.

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-court-rejects-bid-by-gay-man-to-adopt-child-he-fathered-through-surrogacy

[Guest Guest]

1 hour ago, FIRE2020 said:

This articles explains SG law toward this topics.

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-court-rejects-bid-by-gay-man-to-adopt-child-he-fathered-through-surrogacy

 

Your article is from 2017.

The one below is on 2018.

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/landmark-high-court-case-allows-gay-dad-to-adopt-surrogate-son

 

 

[mate69]

Can forget abt it in sg

[mate69]

A $$$$$-making mill

[Guest Guest]

43 minutes ago, mate69 said:

A $$$$$-making mill

 

Children are rich people's pets in modern Singapore. If people cannot afford one, then people shouldn't get one. 

[fab]

Y create more sufferings?

[FIRE2020]

12 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Your article is from 2017.

The one below is on 2018.

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/landmark-high-court-case-allows-gay-dad-to-adopt-surrogate-son

 

 

tks for the update. happy for the child!

[FIRE2020]

5 minutes ago, fab said:

Y create more sufferings?

agreed also from my perspective.

 

then again, i felt that life is rather meaningless sometimes as I aged and also seeing my parent reaching the end of their life.  Luckily, seeing my nieces and nephew growing up does give some hope for the future. perhaps this is what we called life cycle.

[Intended Father]

I attempted once but failed. I am going to have another try at the end of the year. Wish me luck! 

[Guest Guest]

14 minutes ago, Intended Father said:

I attempted once but failed. I am going to have another try at the end of the year. Wish me luck! 

 

Wah ... what happened? What did you do and why did it fail? Did the people con you away of your money or what? 

[Intended Father]

10 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Wah ... what happened? What did you do and why did it fail? Did the people con you away of your money or what? 

Very little eggs fertilised and embroys were not healthy. Either egg quality is not good or poor embryologist skills and lab work. Ivf is not 100% success, only 50~60% success rate. if you keep trying, you will succeed.

[Guest Guest]

3 minutes ago, Intended Father said:

Very little eggs fertilised and embroys were not healthy. Either egg quality is not good or poor embryologist skills and lab work. Ivf is not 100% success, only 50~60% success rate. if you keep trying, you will succeed.

 

And you still must pay for such failure? How much did you have to pay? Sounds like a scam... 

[Intended Father]

1 hour ago, Guest Guest said:

 

And you still must pay for such failure? How much did you have to pay? Sounds like a scam... 

Yes you need to pay the services even failure. Its not scam, just you need to understand the ivf process. 

You can read the forum below :

 

https://singaporemotherhood.com/forum/threads/anyone-doing-ivf-in-2020.251564/

 

Many pple failed a few times before get pregnant. 

 

Depends on the quality of donor. If you just need average chinese look donor, the donor +agent fee is 6500sgd. The ivf cost itself is 9200sgd. 

 

 

[Guest Bugis]

Why not just simply go to orphanage and adopt one of the child from there? I wish I can adopt 1 kid from there.... Anyone please tell me the process. Is unmarried man can adopt a children from orphanage? 

[Guest Guest]

36 minutes ago, Guest Bugis said:

Why not just simply go to orphanage and adopt one of the child from there? I wish I can adopt 1 kid from there.... Anyone please tell me the process. Is unmarried man can adopt a children from orphanage? 

 

https://www.msf.gov.sg/Adoption/Pages/Who-can-Adopt.aspx 

[mate69]

don't bother lah if u r in sg

the process will sap yr energy and morale/hopes with very likely nothing to show for it

[wilfgene]

1 hour ago, mate69 said:

don't bother lah if u r in sg

the process will sap yr energy and morale/hopes with very likely nothing to show for it

Reduce governmental expenditure by only adopting those with disabilities that their own parents discard in order to procreate more.

[Guest father-wannabe]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:01 AM, Intended Father said:

I attempted once but failed. I am going to have another try at the end of the year. Wish me luck! 

Hi, Intended Father,

Did you succeed this time round ? 

[Andrew ang525]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:01 AM, Intended Father said:

I attempted once but failed. I am going to have another try at the end of the year. Wish me luck! 

How do you manage to do it, now is COVID.

 

GOOD NEWS, as covid has harmed most south east asia economy (even singapore is not spared)....... once it open up, there will be ample opportunity to attempt surrogacy in view of the poor economy.

[Neh Neh]

On 9/23/2020 at 10:48 PM, Intended Father said:

Yes you need to pay the services even failure. Its not scam, just you need to understand the ivf process. 

You can read the forum below :

 

https://singaporemotherhood.com/forum/threads/anyone-doing-ivf-in-2020.251564/

 

Many pple failed a few times before get pregnant. 

 

Depends on the quality of donor. If you just need average chinese look donor, the donor +agent fee is 6500sgd. The ivf cost itself is 9200sgd. 

 

 

Wow worth the money. But how to tell the "choosen" child he/she came from virgin Adam "you" alone and no mummy.

[Neh Neh]

Can choose the surrogacy lady from chiang mai or chiang rai? I think they look fairer and more like chinese than southern thai.

[Steve5380]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:10 AM, will7z said:

I recently read something about the topic. S.E Asia has banned legal surrogacy for quite few years. Depending on the budget, the only few lawful places to go for surrogacy are the USA which costs at least 200-300k SGD or Russia which is more affordable at about half the price. Ukraine and Georgia are also doable at even lower price but I doubt their success rate and reliability can match those done in the US or Russia.
 

These countries have sound laws to protect the intended parents, i.e the biological parents. Surrogate mothers usually have their own children and family, and they take it like a well-paid job that can earn them fast money to improve their own family lives. They don’t have much incentive to fight for the baby’s custody and would sign legal paper to give up any parenting right before the surrogacy. Hence, baby’s birth certificate would only bear the names of intended parents without mentioning any surrogacy information at all. Russia can even allow to put the name of a parent that is not genetically related to the child.

 

However, in order to bring the baby home, you still need to have a legal marriage certificate that bears your name and the woman’s name which also appear the same on the baby’s birth certificate. So the baby would prove to be your legally wed-born child and hence you are his/her legal father in Singapore.

 

Above is only a brief summary of the legal aspect, there are also medical parts to consider. For example, the IVF success rate is about 50-60% even at those world class clinics for intended parents at age 35 or below. Once exceeded the age limit, the success rate can drop significantly which means you need to prepare more money and spend more time to repeat the process again until you can welcome your baby to the world.

 

I support such a ban.  The way we gays should have children, if not through marriage, is through adoption.  A gay couple can be a blessing to a foster child of any age (does not need to be a baby to be adopted).  In this issue LOVE is more important than GENES, by far.

.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Steve5380

[InBangkok]

1 hour ago, Steve5380 said:

I support such a ban.  The way we gays should have children, if not through marriage, is through adoption.  A gay couple can be a blessing to a foster child of any age (does not need to be a baby to be adopted).  In this issue LOVE is more important than GENES, by far.

I have written in another thread that I know two gay couples who have had children through surrogacy. One couple in Hong Kong, English and Taiwanese, have a boy and a girl now 11 and 10. They are two of the most delightful and well brought up children I have met. A complete joy to their parents. The other couple live in San Francisco and are over the moon that they have a child that is theirs - nt adopted. Neither had any intention of adoption provided surrogacy could work. I see absolutely no reason why surrogacy should be banned. My view.

[Steve5380]

3 hours ago, InBangkok said:

I have written in another thread that I know two gay couples who have had children through surrogacy. One couple in Hong Kong, English and Taiwanese, have a boy and a girl now 11 and 10. They are two of the most delightful and well brought up children I have met. A complete joy to their parents. The other couple live in San Francisco and are over the moon that they have a child that is theirs - nt adopted. Neither had any intention of adoption provided surrogacy could work. I see absolutely no reason why surrogacy should be banned. My view.

 

There are cases of surrogacy that are successful, and we gays are able to raise happy children. But not all cases are the same, and the problem is often the feelings of the surrogate mother and the emotional, legal, financial complications.  Our desire to have children should not give so much importance that they are "of our own blood".  Our love should include children who have lost their parents and have no one to take care of them except a foster care place.  There is nothing wrong with a child knowing that his parents adopted him/her,  and so it is not necessary that they start fresh in the adopted family as babies.  I have an adopted cousin who my uncle Werner and his wife called for from Europe to Argentina to become their son.  They were a very happy family and he become a distinguished medical professional.  He WAS and IS their son.

 

Before bringing more souls to this world, we should if possible to take good care of the ones who are already here.